AK in 3 gun? Why or why not.


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71Commander
July 2, 2005, 11:39 AM
Just curious. Everyone seems to have an AR. What's wrong with the AK. Ammo is cheaper. Just as reliable. Gets the job done.

Why or why not. :confused:

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EghtySx
July 2, 2005, 11:43 AM
Accuracy.

MiniZ
July 2, 2005, 12:13 PM
Mag changes are also a little slower. HOWEVER, there are many people who use an AK variant in 3 gun matches(including our own Correia, who should be along shortly :) )who do outstanding in these matches. A lot of practice can make the AK a fine and fun weapon for 3 gun.

Chris Rhines
July 2, 2005, 12:48 PM
The reason that ARs are so popular for three-gun competition is that ARs are the easiest (common) rifle to shoot and manipulate fast and accurately. Not to say that you can't shoot an AK fast and accurately, but with the AK you've got a lot of stuff working against you.

- Chris

KaceCoyote
July 2, 2005, 08:54 PM
it aint that bad with the AK, just think. You can drop your mags, step on them. You can drop your optics from the rifle, shed them like water and keep on hammering away without loosing zero. The AK is just different, not better or worse.

71Commander
July 2, 2005, 09:10 PM
I'm going out next week-end to try my first 3 gun. I have my IPSC handgun, a mini-14 that has a scope. A FAL. Also with a scope and a AK (Norinco), Mak90. Iron sights only. Have eight mags for all three. The AK and mini are 30 rounders and the FAL's are 20's. Shotgun is either a Remington 870 ot 1100 W/ extension tube.

I hope i'm all set and ready to make a fool outta myself. But hey!! I shoot IPSC so my reputation preceedes me. :evil:

Gary G23
July 3, 2005, 01:59 AM
We had some 100yd shots at today's match that would have been very tough with an AK.

71Commander
July 4, 2005, 08:22 AM
We had some 100yd shots at today's match that would have been very tough with an AK.

I respectfully disagree. :o

Hoser
July 4, 2005, 09:00 AM
We had some 400 yard shots (LaRue and 18 inch steel plates) last weekend that were hard with any iron sights. Really hard with a crappy AK trigger and sights.

3-Gun with an AK can be done, but why make it harder than it needs to be.

Gary G23
July 4, 2005, 11:13 AM
I respectfully disagree.

You've never shot 3 gun before and you're disagreeing with me? Try shooting threat targets that are 2/3 obscured by non-threat targets at 100yds from a small port at the bottom of a wall then report back.

71Commander
July 4, 2005, 11:43 AM
I do shoot IPSC. I disagree about the accuracy factor. The so called poor accuracy of an AK is a internet wifes tale. While a 5.56 may shoot 2-3 MOA. A AK will shoot 3-4".

The disavatange would be the mag change. Just wonder why they aren't as popular.

Justin
July 4, 2005, 03:17 PM
The so called poor accuracy of an AK is a internet wifes tale. So why aren't there legions of AK shooters clambering for a rule change to allow their AK on the line at high power matches?

Quintin Likely
July 4, 2005, 04:06 PM
I wouldn't feel too bad about allowing an AK as a service rifle. Then me and my RRA would stand a decent chance. :p

71Commander
July 4, 2005, 05:01 PM
So why aren't there legions of AK shooters clambering for a rule change to allow their AK on the line at high power matches?

Not as accurate but still good enough to get on target. Short tube does hurt it, but it isn't a dog. It's plenty good enough for 100 yd shooting. Need accuracy at a longer distance, get a Dragonov.

As to high power matches, my initial question was why isn't it used more at 3 gun matches. I think it's suited for that.

Sunray
July 4, 2005, 05:58 PM
"...why not..." Exactly. 3 gun matches are fun. Shoot whatever you have. The AK's sights aren't that great, but you'll have fun just the same.

Chris Rhines
July 4, 2005, 07:52 PM
It's plenty good enough for 100 yd shooting. Need accuracy at a longer distance, get a Dragonov. Yeah, you've said that you hadn't shot any 3-gun before. You can't switch guns during a match, except in certain exceptional circumstances (for example, if your gun blows up.)

Here's the deal - many 3-gun matches involve shooting the rifle out to 400 yards. Many other 3-gun matches have very small targets at closer range. The last club-level match that I shot had MGM auto-poppers (4" diameter impact zone, 14" high) set out at 150 yards. A 3-4MOA rifle is going to give problems there. Another recent match has an MGM flash target out at 250 - that's a 10" plate - and 75-yard head shots on an IPSC classic target. Same problem. These are common match setups and distances.

If your rifle will only print into 3-4" inches at 100 yards, by the time you add in the human factor, you are going to be having a hard time getting the hits you need, to say nothing of getting them fast.

I haven't even mentioned administrative handling, trigger quality, and reloading...

Look, I'm not trying to discourage you here. If you have an AK that you like, then you can and should shoot it. But the AK platform is not as well-suited for 3-gun as the AR, that's just the way it is.

- Chris

Correia
July 5, 2005, 03:05 PM
I probably know more about this topic than most, as I use an AK in 3gun, and do pretty decent. Really good at the state level, but not a lot of national matches under my belt.

Now first off there is a reason that the AR dominates 3gun. It is easier to shoot faster, with a greater degree of accuracy, and it is easier to reload, primarily because of the bolt hold open.

Hard core 3gun is not real friendly to cheap AKs. Just like it isn't friendly to cheap ARs. It is pretty intensive as far as the shooting games go, and requires a good rifle to be competitive. Don't get me wrong, when you are starting out, bring whatever you have, and have fun.

But if you want to do good, you are going to need the more accuracy the better. I don't use a cheap parts AK. I use a Vepr, which is a sub 2MOA gun. I've also replaced the buckhorn sights with Krebs dustcover peep sights. The more accuracy you can squeeze out of your gun the better.

Mag changes can be just as fast, but it take A LOT more practice. And that is only if you plan ahead and never shoot it dry. If you have to work the bolt, your reload will be a ton slower. The rock and lock can be done very quickly, but you need to practice more to be consistent and fast with it.

The safety is harder to use, unless you have mutant gorilla length fingers, then it is actually faster. (I index my trigger finger on the safety, at the buzzer that thing comes off as my finger moves to the trigger).

So an AK can compete (at least at the state level) but you need a really good AK, and you need to practice the heck out of it. For most shooters they are going to go farther with an AR variant. We had a rifle only match a few months ago. All 3gun style shooting, but all rifle. Ranges from CQB to 200 yards. I took 2nd overall, and 1st iron sights, and this was in a field of 50 shooters, many of whom are very very good. But as was pointed out by the 1st place gun ( ;) who beat me like a red headed step child) if the ranges had been increased then I would have lost to more optics shooters, and if there had been more mag changes I probably would have lagged a bit more also.

For the 400 yard shots, that is why I just bought a .223 Vepr. :D Keep in mind that your scope mounting options with an AK are more limited than a flat top AR if you decide to eventually run optics.

john l
July 6, 2005, 11:51 AM
I shoot my Bulgarian AK in local 3 gun about once or twice a year. I take my AK camping with me and it is a way to stay "in tune" with the gun. I really don't want to take my $1600 AR with all the bling out to the mountains.

That said, I think of your original question, why or why not, and the only semi-original answer I have is that I hope a potential competitor would come out to a 3 gun with an AK and shoot and LEARN A LOT than stay home and miss out because he/she thinks that an AK isn't good enough.

There is a basic physics argument that with a 122 gr AK bullet, you are going to have considerable more barrel jump and recoil than a 55 gr AR bullet, and that can contribute to a overall minus when considering gear for 3 gun. HOWEVER, for real-life self defense, I will take the AK bullet over a 62 gr AR bullet or even the 77 gr bullets. The US Military thinks so too, as their nifty new round is basically an -accurate- AK-weight round. But 3 gun is a game, and a skilled AR shooter with ( as some deride the 55 gr round ) a light bullet, is no one to be trifled with if the shiite hits the fan.

Lastly, I think the time it takes to reload an AK compared to an AR isn't really worth noting. In other words, AK reload speed isn't what will make you come in 2nd place over 1st.

Oh yeah, did you know that Correia is the only one in the whole world with a sub 2 moa AK? Isn't that cool? I'm still waiting to see the 200 yd bullseyes with 2 inch groups.
John L

71Commander
July 6, 2005, 11:58 AM
Thanks Correia and john l. I just asked a simple question and some would have me drawn and quartered. Maybe i'll use my mini-14. :neener:

Wakal
July 6, 2005, 12:33 PM
Just because some folks get mutant AK's that will actually group instead of pattern is no reason to get snippy... :neener:

On the safety thing: take your handy MIG welder and attach half a 5/8" washer to the point where your trigger finger hits the safety. File off most of the little dimple on the back of the safety (the dimple that puts the cute scratch in the receiver ;) ), smooth, polish a bit, and paint. You can skip the last two steps (I do on my own guns, but try to build things a bit more...pretty....for my wife or customers).

If my wife's little trigger finger (and that modification) can make her Saiga-20 safety work, then pretty much anyone with bigger hands than (say) Kenny Baker should be fine :)

I've been meaning to put a proper compensator on a AK type and set it up the same as my Saiga shotguns, just for commonality of controls, but have not had a chance yet.



Alex

Zak Smith
July 6, 2005, 01:05 PM
One of our local 3Gun/rifle matches does an "AR vs AK" match once a year. 4 rifle stages, 0-400 yards. Shoot them with your AR15 with iron sights first, then shoot the match again with your AK. So we have the exact same match shot by the same person with an AR and then an AK. No optics.

The scores broke down like this: on the "CQB" stage, there was basically no difference in scores. The AK is easy to drive fast, close. On the long range stages (200-400 yards), the AK scores suffered a lot, mainly due to totally inadequate iron sights, and the poor trigger didn't help.

-z

Correia
July 6, 2005, 02:58 PM
John, 2 at 100. 5 is the best I've ever done at 200. Heck dude you were with me one day that I did a 2 inch group at WSA. I used one of your shoot N see targets. I think I still have it in the basement somewhere. Wakal, he's just snippy because we shoot together. :)

By the way, how did you like the Thai place?

Wakal
July 6, 2005, 04:57 PM
LOL...figured it was something like that :)

Which Thai place? So much good food, so...big of a belly to eat it all...or something :scrutiny:



Alex

Correia
July 6, 2005, 05:19 PM
Sorry, meant John. He was going to my favorite Thai place. Their Thai Hot is so hot, it can melt the jelly out of your eyes. :D

Wakal
July 6, 2005, 10:44 PM
Down here in Texas, I regularly eat some really hot food. Tex-Mex...hell, I eat out twice a day, every day, usually at Mexican or Tex/Mex places. One of the "other" good things about the NM 3-Gun Championship is the obligatory trip to a really hot Mexican (New Mexico/Mex?) restaraunt..."green chili" ribs hot enough to make your eyebrows sweat. And the most amazingly hot food I've ever had has been...at Thai restaraunts. I'm not much for peanut and sprout pizza :barf: , but man, they can cook some hot stuff over rice :what:

"...so hot, it can melt the jelly out of your eyes." :D :D :D



Alex

IronLance
July 6, 2005, 11:36 PM
You're not going to find the answer you're looking for here. What you will get are the pro-AR vs. pro-AK answers. If you want to screen all those answers, go for it, but I doubt if it'll help you to decide.

The only way you're going to find your answer is to go to a 3G Match and try both (at those matches that will allow the AK). Then you will know for certain which works better for you. The same goes for any firearm, it's all a matter of what works best for the operator.

:D I know this doesn't help, and it may ruffle a few feathers somewhere, but take it or leave. In the end you're going to do what you want to anyway.

Wayde

Zak Smith
July 6, 2005, 11:43 PM
No, AR15's dominate 3Gun competition for good reasons which have been detailed here already.

Correia
July 7, 2005, 12:22 AM
IronLance, I'm afraid Zak is right. It has nothing to do with AK vs. AR. Like I said, I'm not aware of anybody who is more of a die-hard AK fan for 3gun than me, and I fully admit that the AR is the gun to beat.

Zak Smith
July 7, 2005, 01:24 AM
At the 2004 Superstition Mountain 3Gun Match (SMM3G), a shooter came all the way from Russia. Guess what he shot... an AR15:
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/SMM3G-2004/115_1577_img_c.jpg

KaceCoyote
July 7, 2005, 01:50 AM
I'd really like to see what the FN-FNC or a properly setup Galil could do.

As for AK triggers, perhaps I've got a mutant AK but my Saiga has an excellent trigger. I sure as hell prefer the 2-stage trigger over any AR I've fired, and I like ARs.


The AR is essentially ideal for 3-gun however, with its plethora of available optics and configurations the ability to custom build the platform for the individual user and attain a far better "fit" for the user. The AR's got fast magazine changes, 3-gun specific tuners dedicated to the platform. Its a light, handy rifle to start with. Now that said, I dont feel the AK is so inferior. I know my AK wont outgroup my best friend's M4 bushie, however my AK does have some advantages.

The AK's most effective optics, arent terrifically expensive. A hotrod AK runs around 800-1000 for the top end, which is where many ARs begin. The AK's reputation for inaccuracy stems from the cheap Romanian AKs primarily. Horrible trigger pull, canted FSBs, crappy barrels and the occasional warped receiver. Poor iron sights and the popularity of cheap, inaccurate bulk ammo doesnt help things either. I'd love to see what a proper Vepr 7.62x39mm could do with match ammo and aperture sights.

Sunray
July 9, 2005, 01:04 AM
"...The only way you're going to find your answer is to go to a 3G Match and try both..." Capital idea. Go shoot. Use whatever you have(use good ammo that's accurate in your rifle though), but remember that it's about having fun playing a shooting game. You'll still have fun and meet some great people just by going. I wouldn't be using an AR either. I'd go with my old Plainfield M-1 carbine. It's 100% reliable and my handloads work every time. Even if I had an AR, I reach for it first. I could use a few more 30 round mags, but they're evil here. So is the rifle come to think of it.
Use whatever you have, but go shoot the matches. It's fun.

Perry F.
July 17, 2005, 11:58 PM
Shoot what you want.

Zak Smith
July 18, 2005, 12:01 AM
You registered to post that?

warriorsociologist
July 18, 2005, 01:03 AM
:neener:

LOL

vesmcd
July 18, 2005, 02:41 AM
sunray,
I use a WWII Inland with an old Tasco PDP-3/1min dot. I can hang out to 200yds and what I lose at longer distances, I can usually make up on the run-n-gun stages.

dadman
July 18, 2005, 05:56 AM
Zak Smith,

How did the Russian do?
Were you able to speak to him about AK vs. AR?

igor
July 18, 2005, 08:25 AM
We have a national 3-gun variant run by the military reserves' sports organization. The Finnish acronym for the sport is SRA.

The matches tend to be about 70-20-10 rifle, pistol and shotgun. As our military issue rifle is the Sako/Valmet in 7,62x39, there are plenty of shooters such as myself that commit their training to the AK platform, the logic being "that's what they'll give you when the whistle blows". Due to this, the competition circuit shows way over 50% AK rifles, mostly Saigas (Saiga always means the original M3-EXP-01 or genuine AK-103 configuration here), Norincos, Arsenals and Sakos. The vast majority of the .223 shooters use AR variants, with the odd SIG 55x and Steyr AUG in the mix.

That said, it's quite clear that the AR rules the game. The rifle stages are usually kept to a 150 meter maximum just to even the field a bit. Beyond that the flatter trajectory of the .223 really gives heck to the 7,62 crowd. Very few shoot with .223 AK:s. With the heavy piston/slide combo still shaking the rifle up'n'down there's only so much one can do about felt recoil in an AK...

The top AK shooters tend to use Sako M92S:s as only they seem to equal the Vepr in inherent accuracy. Veprs OTOH are surprisingly rarely seen...? The odd Saiga shooter in the top 10 has been observed. Last year the championship was taken with an AK but the man is quite an exception, several times IPSC and Steel Challenge nat'l champion as well.

So, even in this environment with the majority still using the AK, the AR is proving superior in the 3-gun game. Mag changes aren't an issue, general ergonomics and recoil behavior have quite some significance, but the main issues are the .223 trajectory and the inferior inherent accuracy of most AK rifles IMHO.

As to the real application here, we're still quite happy with the 7,62... very hard to go to distances beyond 100 meters here and the landscape is quite well covered. It takes more than a little twig to steer those 122gr projectiles off intended course. And there's no end to the abuse and harsh conditions those Valmet M62:s will take and still deliver.

dave3006
July 18, 2005, 09:49 AM
It is a just a game. The rules favor the AR. Real life can be different. Practice with the gun you will have (AR, AK, M1, ect..)

The rules could be changed to favor any weapon.

Zak Smith
July 18, 2005, 01:31 PM
dadman,

I believe he did well, in the upper 25%. I don't have a copy of the results from almost 18 months ago to check. I also believe his rifle was borrowed from someone here in the US. I assume he could have borrowed an AK-pattern if he really wanted one.


The rifle stages are usually kept to a 150 meter maximum just to even the field a bit.
[...]
but the main issues are the .223 trajectory and the inferior inherent accuracy of most AK rifles IMHO.
[...]
we're still quite happy with the 7,62... very hard to go to distances beyond 100 meters here and the landscape is quite well covered

All the big 3Gun matches in the U.S. have rifle targets beyond 150 yards. SMM3G and RM3G both go to about 350 yards. MGM Ironman had rifle targets to 600-650 yards. Even some of our local matches have rifle shots to 400 yards.

Going back to my first post in this thread:
One of our local 3Gun/rifle matches does an "AR vs AK" match once a year. 4 rifle stages, 0-400 yards. Shoot them with your AR15 with iron sights first, then shoot the match again with your AK. So we have the exact same match shot by the same person with an AR and then an AK. No optics.

The scores broke down like this: on the "CQB" stage, there was basically no difference in scores. The AK is easy to drive fast, close. On the long range stages (200-400 yards), the AK scores suffered a lot, mainly due to totally inadequate iron sights, and the poor trigger didn't help.
Summary: the AK is OK at close range but gets progressively worse compared to the AR as the range increases.

CZ52GUY
July 18, 2005, 02:00 PM
While we don't shoot formal 3-gun at our club, we do have Carbine events that go out no further than 100-yds. Most stages are "IDPA" distances. I have both platforms, have shot both at these events where the AR clearly is the platform of choice for most shooters.

I recently took an all day class with 3 of my fellow competitors designed to build up our skills for these events. The more of us who have been taught more "advanced" skills, the more interesting stages can be considered. Additionally, as one of the RO's at these events it's useful to to see how the senior staff manages some exercises. I was the only one shooting a Commie Rifle, the other 3 were shooting AR's.

At "IDPA" distances, I'd have to agree with Correia's comments. It's less the platform and more about the skill and dedication to practice of the shooter. My hits compared favorably to my classmates, although they at times had slightly tighter groups. During rapid mounting drills, most often I would do as well or better (legs have slowed down, but stationary reflexes still aren't too bad ;)). During reload drills, most often I surpassed their speed (because of intensive dry-fire practice). At the end of the day, young legs prevailed and in some House runs I simply couldn't keep up with one of the younger/fitter participants.

As to platform specifics, I've "customized" the iron sights by filing a V in the rear to more easily pick up the front sight, and I filed a notch in the safety lever so I can keep the bolt back for chamber inspections and stay open for chamber flag insertion between runs. My short fingers don't really allow for indexing the safety off at the buzzer, but my reaction time is still pretty good so I end up doing alright. My out of the box trigger (Global Trades/Arsenal Inc. SSR-56) tips the Lyman scale at about 3.5#. My 20" Bushmaster in contrast is closer to 7.5# (but it doesn't feel that heavy during firing). As much practicing as I've done with "rock & lock", a pair of cinched AR mag's switch much more easily than cinched AK mag's (lighter too).

For formal 3-gun, if you want to win...clearly the AK provides some significant challenges to be overcome. However, if you simply desire the opportunity to get in some practice with your Commie Rifle...as long as you are safe, go for it. These types of events are useful to see how you and your equipment perform under some stress. I found that while on most occasions I can rock & lock cinched AK mag's just fine, too often with my 20-rd Tankers I had issues (if I wasn't perfect, the rounds might slip a hair and cause some malf's). I switched to 30-rd Polymer mag's and did much better.

In any Defensive Shooting event, there are those that will concentrate on the trophies (and there is nothing wrong with that) as well as those that concentrate on the "defensive practice" (and there is nothing wrong with that either).

We have a Carbine Practice we are trying to organize this weekend. That "young whippersnapper" will likely be there with his AR...and I'll be there with mine :). I want every advantage I can get!!

Safe shooting,

CZ52'

50 Freak
July 18, 2005, 02:59 PM
I can't say I've competed much in any "formal" 3 guns. But I have done a few Carbine competitions here in the Bay Area. From the the couple I have seen, it seems like the AR's have about a 50% failure rate. Meaning about half of them will at one time or another through out the competition will have one or more jams. Last one I went to, out of the 4 AR's on the range, 3 jammed.

That's pretty horrible if you ask me. We are talking about high ends ones too, not your Frankenstein, built with whatever is laying around AR's. In fact the only guns (that I noticed) that did not jam at all was the Garand and SKS. Hell even my FAL was jamming so much due to a bent gas piston (and if you know anything about FALs, that just doesn't very often).

Maybe it was just a bad day at the range.

Either way, next time I go to one of these competitions I'm going to be bringing my Mak-90 with some good match ammo. I feel with good ammo it will be only at a slight accuracy disadvantage to the AR's. But that disadvantage will be made up for by reliability.

Correia
July 18, 2005, 03:12 PM
50, all of the serious 3gunners have very reliable guns. Doesn't matter the platform. These guys mean to win, and they do whatever it takes to make their guns run. Most of the AR malfunctions I see come from newer shooters, or guys who feel the need to constantly tinker.

71Commander
July 18, 2005, 06:03 PM
I ended up shooting it with my mini-14. Mostly AR's. A few mini's and a FAL and a H&K. Some of the AR's were in 9mm. Most of the AR's had a hic-cup. Seemed to be 40 rounders that caused feeding problems. 30 rounders ran fine. The H&K was in 9mm and had a FTFeed. :uhoh: I had two PMI 30 rounders for the mini. Ran good.

Another shoot at DSC on the 7th. I'm going to use the AK. I'll do fine. At least I know I can be competitive.

ckyllo
July 19, 2005, 04:06 PM
I see everybody gave the new guy a warm welcome. Welcome to the High Road Perry F. New guy buys ammo :) I'll take some Gold Dots ;)

GrandmasterB
July 22, 2005, 05:30 PM
I shoot 3-gun occaisionally. I don't own an AR15, so I use my Romanian SAR-2, which is an AK variant, sometimes referred to as an AK-74, because it is chambered for 5.45x39 instead of 7.62x39.

I feel that this chambering is more of an "apples to apples" comparison with the AR's .223 (although you CAN get an AK in .223)

Mine has a 74 style muzzle break and I use the Russian Kobra red-dot sight with its integral mount attached to the factory side mount on the SAR-2. I have an adjustable trigger group from Red Star (http://www.redstararms.com/index.htm?488.htm&1) that is totally adjustable for a great trigger pull. It really makes a difference.

I also have installed an ambi tactical mag release that makes reloads a bunch easier. This is also available from Red Star: (http://www.redstararms.com/index.htm?505.htm&1)

Even with all the add-ons (black polymer stock, muzzle break, trigger group, recoil buffer, Kobra red dot and misc.), I still have less than $600 in the gun including 6 30rd mags. And it is TONS of fun, whether I am shooting 3-gun with it or not. :D

No_Brakes23
August 5, 2005, 03:59 AM
Geez, and to think I was planning to use my SKS. Then again, not too many options out here in the PRC.

Correia
August 5, 2005, 10:03 AM
No brakes, the most important thing is that you go and have fun. All of this other crap you can worry about later.

Old Guy
August 11, 2005, 11:41 PM
My shooting with AUGs has never been more than 100m, has anybody done well with them in 3 gun? I have one, in black.

The serious rifle I have ordered, a DIA 16" RRA AR15 that has (they say) a 1 moa at 100m, with a NM trigger (don't know what weight of trigger pull) can not wait to get my hands on that little flat top.

Last question, how many competitors use the EOTech? Nice for quick and dirty, how about 200m?

Keep Safe.

Zak Smith
August 11, 2005, 11:58 PM
I have seen a couple guys shoot AUGs in 3Gun. The common problems I could see were: mag changes slow/difficult, clearing malfs was very troublesome, and they had trouble making hits past 100 yards (though that's probably the driver and not the gun). Magazine-monopod does not work.

The EOTech is a good optic for 3Gun. 200 yards is about its limit for me for the EOTech on typical targets (ie, 8-14" plates), at speed anyway. It rocks for close range matches.

Old Guy
August 12, 2005, 12:28 AM
Thanks Zak.
Just itching to get my RRA!!
Keep Safe.

Crosshair
August 13, 2005, 09:39 AM
Please don't flame,

From what I understand, the reason for the AK having poor accuracy has to do with some of the first shipments to forign countries/terrorists. These first AK's had seen heavy use by the Russian military and quite a few came with barrels that where nearly shot out and in need of replacement. Instaid of spending the time rebareling them, the Russians simply gave them away as forign aid. Since these worn out samples where the first ones the west got to look at, the rumor of AK's poor accuracy began. This is much like the M-16's poor reliability was established in Vietnam. While I admit that today's M-16's are far better than their earlier counterparts, they still don't come close to the AK in terms of reliability. However the M-16 is more accurate (Though not by an important ammount for combat use.) due to tighter tolerances, however many people do not believe that the tradeoff in reliability in a combat weapon is worthwhile.

When I bought my M1 Garand earlier this year, I was ready to have some fun with it. When I took it out to the range to shoot it, I was having trouble keeping it on the paper. I tried tweaking everything on it, reliability was superb, but the dammed thing wouldn't shoot straight. I thought, "How the hell did we win WW2 with this POS?" I take it to a gunsmith who takes one look at it and says, "Oh, the barrel is shot out on this gun. Better take it back where you bought it." So I take it back to Scheels and they send it away to have a new barrel put on it. Once I get it back it shoots like it is soposed to and I'm satisfied.

Rant time: :evil:

People who blather about how the M-16 is doing so well against people with AK's in Iraq really need to shut up. When you have a 1st world military going against a 3rd world milita, (terrorists, whatever :rolleyes: ) it is rather obvious who is going to win. Training and technology is what makes the big difference in combat today.

trbon8r
August 13, 2005, 10:19 PM
Since we are talking about AUGs and other guns and I think the gentleman's question about AKs has been answered............

Has anyone seen an M1A used with any degree of success in 3 gun? I'd like to get started in 3 gun shooting, and the M1A is the rifle that I have the most trigger time with and enjoy shooting the most. I know firsthand having shot in highpower matches against the ARs that the M1A is a handicap due to recoil and slightly slower mag changes, but just how competitive could the old battle rifle be?

Zak Smith
August 13, 2005, 10:43 PM
Has anyone seen an M1A used with any degree of success in 3 gun?
Let's remember that firstly it's the shooter and not the rifle that wins, but going beyond that...

In USPSA 3Gun with Major/Minor scoring, the 308 would score "Major" hits while the 223 scores "Minor". This gives an advantage to the 308 for B, C, and D zone hits. 223 AR15's dominate because you can't make enough extra points with the major caliber to make up for the slower rate of shooting the 308. Put another way, you can't make more points/sec with the 308 vs. the 223 for it to be a real advantage.

In the "outlaw" 3Gun matches where there is typically no Major/Minor distinction, many of the matches have started to include a "He-Man" or "Heavy Metal" class in which the shooter must use a 308 or 3006 rifle with iron sights, a 45ACP handgun, and a 12ga shotgun. If you are shooting in He-Man class, the M1A is a good choice. Its only real competition in this class is the AR-10 and FAL.

-z

zookrider
August 15, 2005, 06:03 PM
Wakal, I'm guessing "Mejor que Nada". Great fajitas there. The "corner stop" is the place for breakfast burritos though.

richardschennberg
August 17, 2005, 02:02 PM
The 7.62 x 39 is at a slight disadvantage to .223. Also, there are some inaccurate or even unreliable AK-47s out there. However, the Chinese Mac-90 and several other quality variants of the AK-47 are accurate and reliable enought to give the AR-15 a run for the money.
For non USPSA/IPSC matches, such as IMGA or independent, there is also a chance that any 30-caliber rifle will be recognized for Heavy-Metal or even He-Man category, in which case the 7.62 x 39 has considerably less felt recoil and noise than the .308.
Richard
Schennberg.com (http://www.schennberg.com)

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