German team wins World SWAT Challenge


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trooper
July 2, 2005, 02:25 PM
I just noticed that a team from my former agency placed first in this year's World SWAT Challenge in Las Vegas :)

The GSG-9 which is the special operations unit of Germany's federal police (formerly known as Bundesgrenzschutz) won every single event and placed first overall.

Go niners!! :D :D

http://worldswatchallenge.com/

The 2005 Original SWAT World Challenge is one for the history books as well as for the record book. The competitive events were held on 1 & 2 April at Front Sight Resort outside Las Vegas and the German team from GSG-9 swept the competition. Well organized, highly fit and exceptional shooters, they shut out the seventeen other teams and won every single event. While first and second in some of the events were only a few seconds apart the Germans managed to pull it out when it counted and demonstrated that they had the best team.

San Antonio, who set the standard last year in winning six of eight events, was second to the powerful Germans in four events and took second overall. The Dallas team finished third overall putting pressure on the Germans in the Range Run event by turning in a 2:58. But here too GSG-9 nipped them at the finish winning by three seconds in 2:55. Beaumont, Texas and LAPD tied for fourth and while both these teams were pretty consistent, each had one event where luck didnít seem to go their way. The Bruce Power ERT captured fifth overall in their first international competition. There is little doubt they will be a team to reckon with in the future. As is the custom for the OSWC the top five teams will be invited back for the 2006 competition. Below are the official final standings.


Regards,

Trooper

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Travis McGee
July 2, 2005, 04:11 PM
Wow, a sweep like that is a rare thing indeed!

Of course, all the SEALs are overseas in combat...

Tman
July 2, 2005, 04:19 PM
Trooper:
Thanks for the heads up. Its on ESPN2 right now for those watching cable (in the USA). :)

444
July 2, 2005, 05:27 PM
Uh Oh.

They held the event at Front Sight.

Now we will have to listen to the tin foil hat club on this board tell us that they probably were converted to scientology while they were there.

torpid
July 2, 2005, 06:13 PM
Now we will have to listen to the tin foil hat club on this board tell us that they probably were converted to scientology while they were there.

Funny, no one brought it up but you.

.

Preacherman
July 2, 2005, 07:05 PM
The Germans won???

"Ve haf vays und means of making you comply, ja?" :what:

:D

444
July 2, 2005, 07:34 PM
Patience grasshopper. The thread is young.
I am just the first one to bring it up.

RevDisk
July 2, 2005, 07:58 PM
After doing weapons training with a few of their members, I wouldn't doubt it for a second that they very much deserved first place. The weapons I saw were tricked out by H&K directly. Sigh...

I thought I was a good shooter. Oh man, the Germans schooled me HARD.


One of them taught me how to operate an MG3 (http://www.revdisk.net/photos/GermanM-3.jpg), which is the modernized version of the MG-42. Probably the only reason why I passed my Schutzenschnur (http://www.revdisk.net/photos/100_2139.JPG) qualification course. I thought I was a good shot, until they told me I had to put 8 rounds of 15 in a bunch black circles the size of a QUARTER in a full color landscape wood land ish poster. You're only allowed to put 2 rounds per tiny black circle. Mind you, this is out of a crew served weapon with a VERY high fire rate. Firing single aimed shots is NOT easy.

thereisnospoon
July 2, 2005, 08:08 PM
They probably all converted to scientology.

There you happy 444? :neener:

trooper
July 2, 2005, 10:48 PM
After doing weapons training with a few of their members, I wouldn't doubt it for a second that they very much deserved first place.

Are you sure the guys you trained with were GSG-9? Your pictures show some Bundeswehr stuff (armed forces, not police).

We had the opportunity to shoot with them for two days during basic training. A couple of them came by to encourage us young recruits to apply for their selection course and they let us play with their toys for a while... :)

Awesome shooters, indeed.


Regards,

Trooper

DarthBubba
July 2, 2005, 11:43 PM
Ya Ya,
ZER Gute Zat ZEE Germans Still have ZE gooden stormtroopers.
It is not like they will ever do anything useful with them, you know like say help fight terrorism.
I wonder if Poland is nervous? HAHAHA

DarthBubba :neener:

RevDisk
July 3, 2005, 12:14 AM
Are you sure the guys you trained with were GSG-9? Your pictures show some Bundeswehr stuff (armed forces, not police).

Photos were from the Schutzenschnur qualification, not the weapons training previously. Different ranges.


We had the opportunity to shoot with them for two days during basic training. A couple of them came by to encourage us young recruits to apply for their selection course and they let us play with their toys for a while...

Awesome shooters, indeed.

I asked my chain of command if I could defect. They said no. :(


ZER Gute Zat ZEE Germans Still have ZE gooden stormtroopers.
It is not like they will ever do anything useful with them, you know like say help fight terrorism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac3/ContentServer?pagename=article&articleid=A43765-2001Nov16&node=nation/specials/attacked/archive

http://www.worldpress.org/europe/1125web_germany.htm

Germany sent approximately 2,250 troops including special forces, naval vessels, NBC cleanup teams, etc to Afghanistan. You are confusing your wars. They actively supported invading Afghanistan, they did not support invading Iraq. The current politically correct answer for invading Iraq is that Saddam was a bad person, not because of terrorism.

Jeeper
July 3, 2005, 12:37 AM
Now we will have to listen to the tin foil hat club on this board tell us that they probably were converted to scientology while they were there.

I saw it on ESPN and I swear I saw Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes in the background passing out flyers. :neener: Actually Cops dont have enough money to be invited into Scientology. :D

AK-74me
July 3, 2005, 12:38 AM
Another thing to consider is that they have a much larger pool to draw from than the other teams. The rules for teams say that the members all must come from one Dept. or Section and you cannot put together "all-star" teams.
Not to discredit their skill because I'm sure it is very high but I would think they have an advantage in that respect.

RRTX
July 3, 2005, 12:43 AM
I think the lesson here is not to mess with the Germans or Texas SWAT teams lol

trooper
July 3, 2005, 02:30 AM
Another thing to consider is that they have a much larger pool to draw from than the other teams. The rules for teams say that the members all must come from one Dept. or Section and you cannot put together "all-star" teams.

Um, but they are from one department/agency. With less than 30.000 employees the German federal police is actually smaller than some large PD's in the US. And the GSG-9 has about 240 officers.


Regards,

Trooper

bad LT
July 3, 2005, 02:48 AM
I bet the guys at Heckler & Koch put some extra special vudoo on the German's guns.

4v50 Gary
July 3, 2005, 03:05 AM
The Bundesgrenschuz is an organization that would cause our ACLU to scream. Think of Customs, Border Patrol, Immigration, FBI and the Coast Guard wrapped up into one agency. Hey, isn't that Dept. of Homeland Security? :eek:

Anyhow, I'm fond of the Bundesgrenschuz. I was a guest (no, not incarcerated) at one of their barracks. They even have a vomitorium in the the water closet of their canteen. :uhoh: I asked the women if they had one and they said, "Ja, ja." :barf: Those Germans. :p

horge
July 3, 2005, 10:25 AM
:)

Jokes aside, virtually every public building has a vomitorium --- a mass exit
out the front (typically also the main entrance).

AK-74me
July 3, 2005, 10:47 AM
Um, but they are from one department/agency. With less than 30.000 employees the German federal police is actually smaller than some large PD's in the US. And the GSG-9 has about 240 officers

Again not taking anything away from GSG-9 because everything I've read about says they are top notch but for example LAPD SWAT, if I am not mistaken is made up of 70 officers. I don't know of any Dept. here in the U.S. that has a 240 member special ops. team.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't GSG-9 the elite, the best of the best. They are all ready like and all-star team compared to the rest of the teams they are going up against. To me anyway a fair competion would be to put them up against the best of the best from our country. Pick the best 10 guys from each country and let them go head to head.

Nathaniel Firethorn
July 3, 2005, 10:52 AM
That's the great thing about competition. It makes everyone try to get better.

Naechste Jahr, mein Mensch. Naeschte Jahr. :evil:

- pd

trooper
July 3, 2005, 11:08 AM
The Bundesgrenschuz is an organization that would cause our ACLU to scream. Think of Customs, Border Patrol, Immigration, FBI and the Coast Guard wrapped up into one agency.

Uh, not quite (even though some of my former colleague would just love it). Their jurisdictions lie only in the fields of border patrol, immigration, railway police and airport security. Additionally, they provide support to local departments for riot control/crowd control. They don't really do terrorism investigations; the reason that the GSG-9 is part of that agency is purely historical. Back in 1972 after the massacre at the Olympics in Munich the federal gov't decided to form Germany's first counterterrorism/SWAT-type unit. The Bundesgrenzschutz (which was a paramilitary organisation rather than a law enforcement agency back then) seemed to offer the most qualified personnel for the job at that time.

The Customs Service is a different agency, as is our equivalent to the FBI, the Bundeskriminalamt. BTW the Bundesgrenzschutz (which literally means Border Patrol) was just renamed to Bundespolizei (= Federal Police) to mirror its various increased fields of work.


Regards,

Trooper

trooper
July 3, 2005, 11:49 AM
Again not taking anything away from GSG-9 because everything I've read about says they are top notch but for example LAPD SWAT, if I am not mistaken is made up of 70 officers. I don't know of any Dept. here in the U.S. that has a 240 member special ops. team.

Hmm... I guess the communications guys, armorers etc. etc. are included in the 240.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't GSG-9 the elite, the best of the best. They are all ready like and all-star team compared to the rest of the teams they are going up against. To me anyway a fair competion would be to put them up against the best of the best from our country. Pick the best 10 guys from each country and let them go head to head.

No, the GSG-9 is "just" the SWAT unit of the Federal Police. It's not like they are selected from all German agencies. The state police agencies of the 16 German states have their own teams that operate on a similar level but are less known. Actually they have a lot more calls/operations than the GSG-9 because they don't just do counterterrorism work but also normal "everyday" SWAT duties. And then there is a Customs SWAT unit, military SF outfits etc. etc.

So no, the GSG-9 is not an all-star team of selected operators.


Regards,

Trooper

Hypnogator
July 3, 2005, 12:40 PM
I had the great pleasure of working with some of the then newly-formed GSG9 people when I was an Army CID Special Agent back in Stuttgart in the early 70's. Really top notch, no-nonsense people.

Not surprising that they'd come out on top of any law enforcement tactical competition.

RevDisk
July 3, 2005, 07:05 PM
Hmm... I guess the communications guys, armorers etc. etc. are included in the 240.

Nope. From memory (so I might get details wrong), GSG-9 is three main teams. CT (100 people), maritime (100) and airborne (50). They also have a technical unit, central services (armorers), documentation unit (commo geeks), operations staff (paper pushers) and training guys. I'm sure the exact numbers change depending on manpower. I don't know if the support guys are just regular Bundespolizei officers, or have actually gone through the entire process.


No, the GSG-9 is "just" the SWAT unit of the Federal Police. It's not like they are selected from all German agencies. The state police agencies of the 16 German states have their own teams that operate on a similar level but are less known. Actually they have a lot more calls/operations than the GSG-9 because they don't just do counterterrorism work but also normal "everyday" SWAT duties. And then there is a Customs SWAT unit, military SF outfits etc. etc.

GSG-9 is also their premier CT unit. While it's attached to the Bundespolizei and draws all of its personnel from the Bundespolizei, it's a more equal pig than all the other SWAT teams. The state police SWAT teams handle more 'routine' SWAT functions, that is raiding common criminals and such.

Military SF units have an entirely different purpose than SWAT teams. They're more focused on military aspects, obviously. GSG-9 is the inbetween SF and regular police SWAT teams, but works/trains with both. Hence their higher profile.


Another thing to consider is that they have a much larger pool to draw from than the other teams. The rules for teams say that the members all must come from one Dept. or Section and you cannot put together "all-star" teams.
Not to discredit their skill because I'm sure it is very high but I would think they have an advantage in that respect.

And Beaumont PD SWAT team, that tied with the LAPD SWAT team, is made up of regular officers who do SWAT in addition to their regular duties. LAPD SWAT and Dallas tactical officers are more-so full time SWAT.

Grabbing a bunch of guys from different teams, even if they are individually 'stars', is a bad idea. Teamwork is more important than individual talents, because it is how the team interacts that gets the job done moreso than any individual action. It can take a while to get a team to work cohesively.


Again not taking anything away from GSG-9 because everything I've read about says they are top notch but for example LAPD SWAT, if I am not mistaken is made up of 70 officers. I don't know of any Dept. here in the U.S. that has a 240 member special ops. team.

I do.

FBI. BATFE 's SRT has close to that number. Probably ICE. Immigration had some SWAT teams, so did Customs. I'm not sure how many SWAT ish personnel ICE has now, but I imagine it's close to 200 or so. Gods only know what Homeland Secuity has.

WT
July 3, 2005, 08:36 PM
Congrats to the German team. No doubt they worked very hard and earned their victory. I'm sure they set a standard that our US teams will strive to equal or exceed.

Congrats again!

AK-74me
July 3, 2005, 08:42 PM
I do.

FBI. BATFE 's SRT has close to that number. Probably ICE. Immigration had some SWAT teams, so did Customs. I'm not sure how many SWAT ish personnel ICE has now, but I imagine it's close to 200 or so. Gods only know what Homeland Secuity has.

Right but I was refering more to Police Dept. SWAT teams. I understand that team work is important I was just saying if an "all-star" type team had a chance to train together.

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