Shot my first IDPA match this morning


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GunAdmirer
July 2, 2005, 11:18 PM
Seriously, I shot my first IDPA match (or any other match for that matter) this morning. There is an active local pistol club that meets just a few miles from my home. The range officers and other members were nice - not nearly as strict as I thought reading the IDPA rule book. They did go by the rules but were nice and helpful about it.

I finished fifth from the bottom overall and third from the bottom in my class. I was so glad I didn't finish last. My biggest problem was getting in too much of a hurry and not aiming carefully enough. My Glock 17, reloads and Comp-tac mag pouches performed flawlessly. I can't wait to get my Springfield GI .45 from the gunsmith so I can shoot it too. It is getting customized.

Only complaints - It was REALLy hot and the squad was so big (13) that it took forever to get through each stage.

I'm afraid I'm going to like shooting in matches a little too much . . .

What's up with the $35 annual IDPA membership fee? What do you get for that amount? NRA is only $25! The local pistol club is only $15!

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faustulus
July 3, 2005, 05:11 AM
What's up with the $35 annual IDPA membership fee?
Not much. Techincally you are supposed to be an IDPA member to shoot in matches, but I have yet to find a club that enforced this rule.
You do however, need to be a member to get classified. This puts you in a group of other shooters of similar ability. It also allows you to shoot in santioned matches (state, regional, national events).
Whether it is worth the $35 really depends on what you want to get out of it. If you begin shooting it a lot you will probably want to consider a membership. If it is something for recreation, you may decide you don't need it.

Jim Watson
July 3, 2005, 11:49 AM
Your dues and club affiliation fees are IDPA's only income, they don't get part of the entry money as some outfits do. Bill W. isn't getting rich off of you, there is an office and several employees to support.

There is not much to do about the hurry up and wait of an IDPA (IPSC, SASS) match. Only one shooter can shoot at a time, per stage or bay, and that is just naturally a slow process.
Anybody who wants to stay active all the time should shoot Highpower rifle matches, you are either shooting, scoring, or pulling targets; but seldom idle.

thereisnospoon
July 3, 2005, 12:05 PM
Ummmmmmmmmm......

If there are 14,000 IDPA members @ 35.00 each thats $490,000.00/year, plus you must buy IDPA targets which I'm sure King Bill gets a piece of...If his three office ladies eat up that much overhead each year, I want a job at IDPA headquarters. :fire:

I don't really care if King Bill makes money off IDPA...I just wish he wouldn't pretend not to make anything, that's the rub. He acts like it is a big hassle that he makes nothing from, but the math don't add up. He may not make anything, but I bet his wife gets a BIG check every payday... :mad:

I read with much disgust the interview with Masaad Ayoob in the Tactical Journal, and upon completion of the article decided NOT to renew my 5 year old membership.

IDPA at the local level is absolutely the best bang for your buck, just don't expect much from Bill Wilson or IDPA Headquarters for your $35.00/year

Jeeper
July 3, 2005, 12:12 PM
Only complaints - It was REALLy hot and the squad was so big (13) that it took forever to get through each stage.

I'm afraid I'm going to like shooting in matches a little too much . . .


I think 10-12 is about the max size squad that runs fast. 8 is perfect in my opinion. Glad you had fun. Competition in any form really shows how good you are. If you practice the necessary skills alittle with dryfire you will be jumping over people in the standings faster than you can imagine.

jdkelly
July 3, 2005, 02:41 PM
Your dues and club affiliation fees are IDPA's only income, they don't get part of the entry money as some outfits do. Bill W. isn't getting rich off of you, there is an office and several employees to support.---Jim Watson

Jim Watson,

Do you have any information on IDPA income/expenses?

I've heard (but I don't know) that IDPA is a trailer parked on Wilson Combat land, and several part time workers. I've also heard that Bill Wilson doesn't/won't release financial data with regard to IDPA.


How do you know what Mr. Wilson is making directly or indirectly off of IDPA (Wilson Guns and accessories not included)? Doesn't IDPA get something from the sponsors?

What do you base your statement on?


Respectfully,

jkelly

Jim Watson
July 3, 2005, 03:08 PM
Well, I have seen a picture of IDPA HQ showing a permanent sheetmetal building as common to many small businesses. I had the idea, right or wrong, that staff included Dru and three clerks. I don't know how well they are paid, whether the BOD gets much (I know the ACs don't.) or how much the Wilsons take out. I doubt it is a lot compared to income from a well-reputed gun company.

I am not going to set myself up as judge of excess profits. $35 a year is a very small part of my shooting budget and it is worth it to me just to rub shoulders with the good shooters at sanctioned matches. I also maintain USPSA membership although I have not shot IPSC in a couple of years, likewise I pay dues to SASS and a local club for about a quarterly Cowboy shoot. Of course I am an NRA member and cheerfully pay $12.50 a year for my scorebook to shoot some of their matches.

I am not going to base anything on what Massad Ayoob writes, I learned better than that years ago at the cost of two guns screwed up by shops he recommended.

Igloodude
July 3, 2005, 03:30 PM
Anybody who wants to stay active all the time should shoot Highpower rifle matches, you are either shooting, scoring, or pulling targets; but seldom idle.

...or Bullseye, and that even has the advantage of allowing you to shoot pistol instead of rifle. ;)

jdkelly
July 3, 2005, 03:35 PM
Jim,

I wanted to know if your statement was based on factual information of IDPA financies or if you were guessing like everyone else (me too).



Respectfully,

jkelly

Jim Watson
July 3, 2005, 05:57 PM
JD,

You are right, I was speculating in excess of evidence.
I still say Bill W. is not getting rich on IDPA cash flow and don't care anyhow.

Igloo,

Well, yes, I used to shoot PPC and there is a higher ratio of shooting to milling, even though there is no pit duty. But it is not exciting, and it is hard.

jdkelly
July 3, 2005, 07:45 PM
You are right, I was speculating in excess of evidence.---Jim Watson

Good enough for me.

Have a Happy Fourth!


Respectfully,

jkelly

Jeff Timm
July 3, 2005, 08:08 PM
If it is registered as a non-profit organization then there should be a public finance report.

If not taxes have to be paid, which may also be public.

The biggest cost of modern organizations, are legal and insurance.

Geoff
Who accepts certain facts of life, but I do want Lawyers, as officers of our courts, limited to $25 per hour, or as much less as they care to charge. :evil:

faustulus
July 3, 2005, 10:39 PM
The biggest cost of modern organizations, are legal and insurance.

I am pretty sure personnel would be a larger cost in most businesses, at least it is with all the ones I deal with.

Walt Sherrill
July 5, 2005, 12:50 PM
My ONLY complaint with IDPA is the groupings of 10mm with 9mm (Stock or Enhanced Service Postol), and .45 SAs in a pristine class all their own. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Other than that, I think its one of the best bangs for the buck in shooting. If it costs me $35 a year to play, I'm willing.

Billy Sparks
July 5, 2005, 12:56 PM
I agree with Walt I throw way more than $35 away every year and don't have near the fun. My only complaint is that I can't shoot more, evidenced by me not being at the last couple of local shoots.

Genghis
July 5, 2005, 02:01 PM
Jeff -

I know this is straying a bit from the topic, but a $25/hr lawyer would not have a computer, office, legal assistant, or any law books. A friend of mine studied his costs a number of years ago and found that it took him $45.00 per hour just to keep his doors open, without taking any money out. That's every hour of the day, not just when he's billing a client.

People pay lawyers what they do because they want results. Put me up against a $25/hr lawyer and you'll save money on fees, but I hope you don't care about winning your case.

GunAdmirer
July 5, 2005, 02:12 PM
$35 really isn't much in the grand scheme of things, but it is one more expense and it all adds up.

Why is it so high compared to other clubs and organizations? Most of the matches are done at the local level and charge fees. No monthly magazine. I don't need the hat.

I like the practicality of IDPA. I think they need to loosen up some of their equipment rules and charge less for annual dues.

Oh, well, I'm sending in my dues this afternoon, anyway.

Walt Rauch
July 5, 2005, 03:20 PM
Why is it so high compared to other clubs and organizations? Most of the matches are done at the local level and charge fees. No monthly magazine. I don't need the hat.

I like the practicality of IDPA. I think they need to loosen up some of their equipment rules and charge less for annual dues.

Oh, well, I'm sending in my dues this afternoon, anyway. "


Sell the hat..Sell the rule book...who knows, you might be able to get your costs down to $15.

Jeff Timm
July 5, 2005, 04:59 PM
gengis commented: "Jeff -

I know this is straying a bit from the topic, but a $25/hr lawyer would not have a computer, office, legal assistant, or any law books. A friend of mine studied his costs a number of years ago and found that it took him $45.00 per hour just to keep his doors open, without taking any money out. That's every hour of the day, not just when he's billing a client.

People pay lawyers what they do because they want results. Put me up against a $25/hr lawyer and you'll save money on fees, but I hope you don't care about winning your case."

Hey, the legal profession is self regulating, self pricing (high) and is based on ripping off people. I say that as "Officer's of our Courts." we the people have the right to control lawyer salaries. I just want to cap them at $25 a hour, ALL LAWYERS.

I had several computers and paid a mortgage on a house with included office at less than $25 an hour, even when totaled with my wife's salary.

An hourly rate of $25.00 equates to a weekly pay of $1,000, monthly pay of $4,333, and an annual salary of $52,000. Well above the national average salary, which is:

Value Average
gross personal income $20,114.00
remaining after taxes 89.17%
state and local taxes $115.38 / $1,000 of income
state and local income taxes $35.25 / $1,000 of income
state and local sales taxes $27.76 / $1,000 of income
state and local property taxes $37.06 / $1,000 of income



Geoff
Who has to be frugle. :rolleyes:
Who can't afford the lawyers required to actually CCW. :cuss:

Genghis
July 6, 2005, 09:48 AM
You're talking about $25/hr take home. That is not even close to the same thing as the gross amount charged to the client. My clients would not want to hire me if I didn't have access to the most current information. That means I have to pay for a computerized legal research service. I have to have a legal assistant to do everything that doesn't take a lawyer. I have to pay rent, utilities, phone service, taxes, office supplies, advertising, accounting,

People pay lawyers to do important things like recovering money, fighting for custody of their kids, keeping them free, and even keeping them from being executed. This takes lots of training and expertise, and involves a lot of collateral costs other than just paying the lawyer to do his work. We may be partially self-regulating, but we're also regulated by supply and demand. If people didn't value what we do, the expensive lawyers would starve and prices would be forced down.

I deal with lawyers on an hourly basis. There are certainly dishonest ones, even some who flat-out steal from their clients. But most lawyers I've dealt with are honest, because word quickly spreads in the profession. Much of what happens is based on trust. If everyone knows you're a liar, it will be impossible to get the simplest things done like getting a hearing delayed.

GunAdmirer
July 6, 2005, 09:54 AM
Wow!!! This thread has gotten off topic. I think this legal fee discussion belongs in a different category or even forum. Can we go back to the original idea or let the thread die, please?

Anyone have any comments about my first IDPA match experience or comments about the cost of IDPA membership dues?

thereisnospoon
July 6, 2005, 10:02 AM
Sorry for straying so far off topic.

I hope you enjoyed your first IDPA match. I was hooked by the end of my first stage, but then I'm Extremely compulsive. I really enjoy the friends I have made in IDPA and they are truely some of the best people I have ever met. We have formed lasting friemndships that even King Bill can't destroy (as hard as he try).

I don't even mind paying the $35.00 dues. You do receive a quarterly magazine that sometimes has interesting things in it, especially those articles written by novice writers. Very raw and no sales pitch, just opinion.

But don't expect much more than that. Headquarters does nothing to support IDPA, except take your money and put on a "National" match each year, which most people have quit attending/working because King Bill can't even afford to pay for their hotel bills out of the pitance he makes from IDPA dues.

oops, there I go again... :confused: :uhoh:

Jeff Timm
July 9, 2005, 11:03 AM
Ghengis commented, "You're talking about $25/hr take home."

No. I'm saying "We the people" cross reference the US Constitution, have the right and responsibility to regulate lawyers. Lawyers have made themselves a vital part of the legal system, which is the Government.

Therefore, we need to set their charges at $25 per hour. No more or as much less as they care to charge.

Now, as a non-profit organization I think IDPA charging $35 a year and providing services is not unreasonable. Especially compared to lawyers who, in the case of the State of Ohio vs. the Tobacco companies worked for 30 days and got about $60,000 per hour, money that should have gone to the people of Ohio.

Geoff
Who notes that if we assume the Lawyers are right about separation of church and state, then Lawyers shouldn't be allowed in the Executive and Legislative branches of Government. Who also notes the last three lawyers in the White House were Clinton, Ford and Nixon. :banghead:

faustulus
July 9, 2005, 05:56 PM
No. I'm saying "We the people" cross reference the US Constitution, have the right and responsibility to regulate lawyers. Lawyers have made themselves a vital part of the legal system, which is the Government.

yeah, while we are at it let's trash the whole free market system. I mean really what good has it done?

Now, as a non-profit organization I think IDPA charging $35 a year and providing services is not unreasonable.
What services are they providing exactly? and I don't think they are a non-profit.

Especially compared to lawyers who, in the case of the State of Ohio vs. the Tobacco companies worked for 30 days and got about $60,000 per hour, money that should have gone to the people of Ohio.

Hope you like the tactic of suing a legitimate business for making a legitimate product, I am sure you will see it again.

Who notes that if we assume the Lawyers are right about separation of church and state, then Lawyers shouldn't be allowed in the Executive and Legislative branches of Government. Who also notes the last three lawyers in the White House were Clinton, Ford and Nixon.
Like anything else in life there are good ones and bad ones. If he wins your case he tends to be good, if the other side beats you, then he tends to be bad. Looking over that constitution you refered to earlier, it seems that we already have rules concerning who we let into the branches of government.

DT Guy
July 9, 2005, 07:39 PM
Good lord, now the lawyers are ruining the good threads, too!!


:D :D :D


Larry

jdkelly
July 10, 2005, 07:32 AM
My ONLY complaint with IDPA is the groupings of 10mm with 9mm (Stock or Enhanced Service Postol), and .45 SAs in a pristine class all their own. Just doesn't make sense to me.---Walt Sherrill

I've been told (but I don't know) that IDPA was created as a result of the SS 1911 becoming uncompetitive in USPSA competition. If that is even partially true then Iíd suspect that the no 10mm in CDP is an extension of Wilson Combatís protectionism.


Respectfully,

jkelly

Jeff Timm
July 10, 2005, 07:51 AM
It constantly amazes me, that after someone or some group takes action to actually do something about a perceived problem, i.e. IPSC becoming a game not a semi-serious combat style shooting sport, that so many people who do NOTHING complain about IDPA.

Truly it is written, "Five percent of the population drive the human race forward, the rest try to prevent them from succeeding, when they succeed, disaster follows. This is called 'bad luck.'"

Lawyers of course are dedicated to using our laws against everyone and making massive amounts of money, for no work at all, while destroying the nation.

As one lawyer said about seeing the 10 commandments posted near a court house, but not inside, "It makes me ill to see that!" I commented after I heard that remark (Fox News) "They say demons feet burn if they try to cross consecrated groud."

Geoff
Who has little fondness for lawyers, even when I know a few are dedicated civil servants,

jdkelly
July 10, 2005, 07:23 PM
It constantly amazes me, that after someone or some group takes action to actually do something about a perceived problem, i.e. IPSC becoming a game not a semi-serious combat style shooting sport, that so many people who do NOTHING complain about IDPA.Jeff Timm

Jeff,

What specifically are you talking about?


Respectfully,

jkelly

faustulus
July 11, 2005, 02:46 AM
Jeff,
Put the weed down and get back on the meds.

Jeff Timm
July 15, 2005, 06:39 PM
As I understand it, IDPA was a response to the Game players taking over IPSC. OK, fair enough.

But then to be nasty about the IDPA leaders, and criticise the rules, and expense is silly. Do or don't do. There is room for a better organization, I just don't think most people want to expend the energy required.

Now, as for my tirades against the Legal Profession, well, I'm just P.O. 'd that a criminal will get my tax money for its defense, $84,000 in a case with security camera pictures, but I will go bankrupt if I end up in court for ANYTHING. ("Bring $75,000 then we'll talk about paying the bill," a certain well known attorney in FL. Up north it would be more like a quarter million.)

Sigh.

Geoff
Who will appeal to Diet Dr. Pepper, his personal choice in strong drink. :cool:

meef
July 16, 2005, 08:00 PM
Just to sorta put things in another perspective - $35 a year is just a bit short of ten cents a day. That's less than the cost of ONE round of ammo for almost anything but a .22.

I think I could afford that if I sacrificed a little in one or two areas of my many other unnecessary luxuries. :rolleyes:

GarySTL
July 18, 2005, 11:08 AM
Like the OP, I also shot my first IDPA match on Saturday. This was at the Benchrest Club of St. Louis where I'm a member. It was great fun and I'm looking forward to the next one in August. As said, a nice group of people.

I shoot a Springfield XD-40SC. I think they listed that as ESP, is that correct? Is that the same class as the Glocks?

GunAdmirer
July 18, 2005, 11:30 AM
The XD pistols are in the ESP class because it is considered single action. The Glocks are in the SSP class since it is considered double or safe action -unless they have been enhanced. Then they are in the ESP class as well.

GarySTL
July 18, 2005, 11:49 AM
Hmm..

Seems to me they work the same. :confused: But I guess that's why I'm not a gunsmith.

Aren't they both striker fired? Both partly cocked when in battery? Both have a safe action type of trigger?

Perhaps that's another thread. Can you perhaps point me to one where it's explained?

Thanks.

GunAdmirer
July 18, 2005, 11:56 AM
Both are striker fired. In short, on the XD, the trigger releases an already cocked striker (single action) On the Glock, the trigger cocks and releases the striker (double or safe action). You might want to read more at www.xdtalk.com. This is a matter of heartburn for some. I've had minor heartburn about it myself since they both require a rather long trigger pull for each shot and feel nearly the same. Otherwise, the stock XD would be considered a stock service pistol.

GarySTL
July 18, 2005, 12:07 PM
OK, I understand better now. I thought my XD-40 did some additional cocking as the trigger was pulled, the way my Kahr does. At least that's what the illustration for the Kahr seems to show.

Thanks for the explaination.

nomadboi
July 18, 2005, 12:47 PM
Just shot my first match last Saturday, in Renton, WA.

Fun stuff.

Steyr M40 did great. If I want to keep doing this, I'll need to get a new holster (the one I got with the gun when I bought it used hangs the grip below the waist line) etc, but overall I'm happy. I did better than I expected, given the fact I'd never even done live fire from a holster draw before (not allowed at the range I usually go to). Got a couple procedurals called on me- one for dropping a magazine that still had a couple rounds in it, one for forgetting to do a certain stage one-handed (did a mag change and then autopilot brought that weak hand back up).

Good bunch of people there- competetive in a friendly way only, skilled by humble, and helpful.

Hope to do it again sometime, but it may have to wait for me to find a better job (been looking for a while now). Don't have much money for ammo for even basic range time these days.

DT Guy
July 18, 2005, 11:53 PM
nomadboi,

That's exactly what I've experienced at about EVERY IDPA match I've ever been to-friendly people, competing without being offensive, polite and safe.


Sounds like you're hooked!


Larry

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