Sawing off a shot gun?


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hcker2000
July 4, 2005, 04:18 AM
Basicly I was wondering what the rules are regarding sawing off a shot gun? Also can any one recomend a decent shot gun that wouldn't be hard to saw off if its not illegal?

Dosn't have to be any specific kind just some thing cheap :)

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steveno
July 4, 2005, 05:09 AM
the barrel must be at least 18 inches long and the OAL has to be at least 26 inches(it might be 29 inches) long.

Cavalry
July 4, 2005, 05:41 AM
DONT DO IT, Its not very safe in the first place, keep it above 18 if you do

Chipperman
July 4, 2005, 08:57 AM
Make it at least 18 1/4" lest your wife and children be shot at.

Your ruler may not quite match the one the Feds have.

joab
July 4, 2005, 09:03 AM
Take it to a smith most will do a double for under $50 includung silver soldering the gap left between the barrels.

Single barrels are much cheaper and will include deburring and/or recrowning the barrel.

But,
In my younger years I hack sawed one off with no real ill effect to the gun or myself.

I have one noe that I bought already chopped and it took many hours with a stone to even things up.

If you do it be sure to allow for mistake correction on your length

joab
July 4, 2005, 09:07 AM
Best shotgun to hack off would be a pawn shop single that you buy for under $75 and preferably $50 bucks any brand will do.

You can buy a used 18 incher for less that $150 if you look a little

I have a barely if ever shot Winchester 1300 that I paid $139 for

Shootcraps
July 4, 2005, 09:10 AM
Why not get a coach gun? I have a nice double barrel with factory 18" tubes that I got at a pawn shop for $175. I've seen the new Russian ones for $199. Very handy length.

Brian Williams
July 4, 2005, 09:14 AM
HOW TO DO IT>
It must be at least 18" long and overall length must be over 26". The way to do it is to take a dowel and mark a length of 18.5" from one end and insert that end in the barrel until it touches the bolt, the action should be closed and empty. Mark the end of the barrel then withdraw the dowel. Line up the end of the barrel mark with the end of the barrel and mark the barrel at the 18.5. If the barrel does not have a vent rib use a heavy duty pipe cutter to mark the barrel and cut with a hacksaw. Finish it of with a small file and sandpaper.

RECOMMENDATION>
trade it for what you want.

wdlsguy
July 4, 2005, 09:18 AM
Basicly I was wondering what the rules are regarding sawing off a shot gun?

If you want to go shorter than 18", you will need to comply with the federal National Firearms Act (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#m). This assumes your state allows possession of short-barreled shotguns in the first place.

Shweboner
July 4, 2005, 02:17 PM
I got a NEF Pardner 12Ga. for under $100 and chopped the BBL to 18.5"

I could have gotten away with shortening the stock as well, but I like a full stock.

***if you plan on cutting the stock... fire it w/ full stock 1st... it may change your mind :what: ***

What I used was a pipe cuter. It worked pretty well.

Remove the bbl 1st, put it in the vise, and cut!
next I cleaned and deburred the bbl, and sprayed it with a bake-on enamel finish and cooked it for a couple hours. and its pretty nice.

If you ever wanted to change it back you can just order another bbl from the factory and swap 'em out.
I reccomend that you buy the NEF in a RIFLE caliber of your choice and order the shotgun bbl. that way you will have 2 guns for under $200... a nice rifle for hunting and a sawed-off!

Pietro Beretta
July 4, 2005, 09:11 PM
I Suppose you either want to save money and dont want to buy a new shotgun thats 18"

Or your trying to make your shotgun evin shorter, to be more consealable.


I would just buy a Mossberg 500 Special Purpose Cruiser model

18" barrel, Pistol Grip , 8 Shot. For about 350 out the door.

Shweboner
July 4, 2005, 10:26 PM
I just took mine out today. Still well worth the effort.

You can find those NEF shotguns on Gunbroker, for less than $50 sometimes.

Its worth a look. Its cheaper and its just a fun project to take on. Not to mention, if you screw it up, you haven't ruined one of your other guns.

Fumbler
July 5, 2005, 12:49 AM
I cut mine down to 18.5" and soldered on Mossberg ghost ring sights.

It's a mossberg 500a.
First I pulled the vent rib off, grinded off the spots where the rib was attached, and finished with Krylon Fusion.
I'm gonna refinish the whole gun in digital camo later.
I marked it and cut it with a hacksaw, then put it on a wood turning lathe and used a dremel in a fixture with the lathe turning very slow to finish the cut end.
Came out nice and square.

Here's a pic. The server doesn't allow hotlinking, so copy and paste the link into your address bar.
http://www.thewolfweb.com/photos/00414776.jpg

hcker2000
July 5, 2005, 02:02 AM
Ok I was thinking more like 12 to 20 inches total length. I live in ohio and am not sure if they allow them or not.

So basicly at 26 (or 29?) the gun is legal in any state? And If I want to go under that I'm going to need to fallow some rules and make sure my state allows less than 26 (or 29?) OAL correct?

Basicly thought of the double barrel because it can be very short (if law allows) and of corse it would be like the one in mad max :)

I will check into the cheap guns you were all talking about though.

Is there any issue with firing slugs from a sawed off?

EDIT:

Fumbler: your gun looks nice but what if I wanted a pistol grip on the thing?

carebear
July 5, 2005, 02:55 AM
Want to reemphasize that cutting a shotgun off too short is a FEDERAL offense unless you line the paperwork up first. A .gov offense that has led to people dying.

Save yourself time, trouble and money and just buy a used factory model, double, single or pump with an 18.5" bbl. They are under $200 used in most places.

Leave the Mad Max fantasies on the screen.

hcker2000
July 5, 2005, 03:11 AM
So there is paper work for it?

Now I know the rules say you can make your own guns if not for sale. So do guns you make have to fallow the OAL rules? The 18 inches wouldnt be bad if I could use just a grip with it insted of a stalk. With out the stock the barrel has to be 22 inches or so it says online. I supose that is better than 18 + the stock.

As far as the silver soldering and stuff gose that would be no issue as I have all the stuff to do this as well as deburing.

carebear
July 5, 2005, 04:04 AM
You've got gunsmith tools but you are unfamiliar with National Firearms Act rules?

There are many on here who can probably quote the regs and required steps chapter and verse; but I'd recommend actually going to the BATFE website and looking them up yourself to avoid any misconceptions.

hcker2000
July 5, 2005, 04:19 AM
Well silver soldering is used for alot more than gun smithing and that gose for de-buring tools.

Are dubble guns more expensive than a single semi-auto? I think the way to go is with a 22 inch barel or what ever is required with a pistol grip on the back.

Silent-Snail
July 5, 2005, 07:51 AM
Where do you peolpe find coach guns for under $800?

Rupestris
July 5, 2005, 08:23 AM
Where do you peolpe find coach guns for under $800?

Both Stoeger and Baikal offer coach guns for just over $300. Baikal has exposed hammers.
Do a search on gunbroker.com for "coach gun" and you'll find them there.

wdlsguy
July 5, 2005, 08:48 AM
Ok I was thinking more like 12 to 20 inches total length.

Here is the Ohio definition:

"(F) "Sawed-off firearm" means a shotgun with a barrel less than eighteen inches long, or a rifle with a barrel less than sixteen inches long, or a shotgun or rifle less than twenty-six inches long overall."

Here is the Federal definition:

"(6) The term ''short-barreled shotgun'' means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches."

So basicly at 26 (or 29?) the gun is legal in any state?

I am aware of at least one jurisdiction (Washington, DC) which considers a shotgun with a barrel less than 20 inches in length a "sawed-off shotgun", but you don't want to bring firearms to Washington, DC anyway.

wdlsguy
July 5, 2005, 08:51 AM
There are many on here who can probably quote the regs and required steps chapter and verse; but I'd recommend actually going to the BATFE website and looking them up yourself to avoid any misconceptions.

+1. Here's the link again: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm

hcker2000
July 5, 2005, 11:42 PM
Ok so 26 1/2 inches it is. So who can recommend a cheap shot gun I can stick a pistol grip on and saw down to 26 1/2 OAL?

albanian
July 6, 2005, 12:03 AM
I have cut down two pump shotguns to 18 1/2". There is a good reason to do it. Old beater pumps can be had for about $60-125 in my area. Mostly Mossberg 500 varients and old Rem 870s. I have bought several pumps for under $100 that had messed up stocks and long bbls that were only good for goose hunting or something. I remember getting a Moss 500a for about $75 with a messed up wood stock and a 30" bbl. I didn't chop it down traded the bbl to a local gunshop for a 18" rifle sighted smooth bore. Then I bought a black plastic stock for it and had a nice pump for about $150.

If it is a pump, consider trading the bbl to a gunshop before you cut it down. it is a lot of work to get it perfect unless you have some special tools and then you still have to mount a sight. Most gunshops seem happy to trade long bbls for shorter ones. You may have to give a few bucks to ge them to do it but it will be worth it in the long run. If you just want to cut a bbl down for the fun of it, then go ahead. There really is no danger, shotguns don't build up much pressure so the risk of having a Ka-Boom is not much. As long as you cut it even and de-burr it, it should be safe. You will probably reduce the pressure because you are going to be cutting off the choke.

Fumbler
July 6, 2005, 02:37 AM
I don't know what your definition of cheap is, but if you're buying a new gun then look for a Mossberg 500 Cruiser.
It comes with an 18.5" barrel and a pistol grip.
Most places you'd find it for the same price as a regular model 500, which should be $200-250. Overall length with the pistol grip is 26.5".

Albanian has good suggestions on buying an old beater pump gun.

hcker2000
July 6, 2005, 02:48 AM
This was an idea I had because of the cheap-ness, the fun of it, and the various loads made for shot guns.

If there any problem with using exotic shot gun loads in a cut down gun?

Cheap is less than $100. I would prefer to find some thing for like $50. As far as sights go I could braze or silver solder one on if I realy want one. Right now I'm thinking I don't realy care if there is on on the front or not.

I saw a shot gun along time ago that was an AOW and only held 3 rounds but as I remember it was expensive :(

joab
July 6, 2005, 03:21 AM
Must be the ever popular Super Shorty (http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm)

You're not planning on making one of these are you

hcker2000
July 6, 2005, 03:48 AM
Well that was my original ideal length yes. What exactly makes that legal and me sawing off the stock and barrels of a dubble to the same size isnt?

joab
July 6, 2005, 03:49 AM
They paid the proper tribute to the goverment

joab
July 6, 2005, 03:51 AM
They explain it here http://www.serbu.com/nfainfo.htm

hcker2000
July 6, 2005, 04:06 AM
Ahh. I see that I would have to go threw the same paper work for a full auto. Is the tax stamp the same price?

Also is it true that a slug dose about as much damage at close range as a .50?

Shootcraps
July 6, 2005, 06:59 AM
What exactly makes that legal and me sawing off the stock and barrels of a dubble to the same size isnt?

Because it was manufactured that way. You would have to make one from scratch. Not take one that's already built and modified it.

joab
July 6, 2005, 07:48 AM
Actually the Shorty is a modified Mossberg 500

Third_Rail
July 6, 2005, 07:56 AM
But it uses a virgin receiver, hence AOW instead of SBS.

joab
July 6, 2005, 08:05 AM
Oh, OK Wierd damn laws here

Third_Rail
July 6, 2005, 08:35 AM
Well not super weird, though rather complex. If it left the factory as a shotgun and you make it shorter than 18" bbl, 26" overall, it's a SBS. Ditto rifle, but 16" instead of 18".

If it leaves the factory without a buttstock, it's not a shotgun by law, and thus can become an AOW as long as no buttstock is ever attached. The only reason this is good is that the AOW tax is $5, whereas the SBS/SBR is $200. Not such a big deal anymore, though.

hcker2000
July 7, 2005, 12:41 PM
Ok so if I buy a shot gun with a pistol grip from the factory it can be made to a shorter length than 26 OAL? And of corse pay the $5 tax?

Also dose the fact it has a front forgrip make any difference?

Third_Rail
July 7, 2005, 12:47 PM
AOWs are TRANSFERRED with a $5 tax. To make them is still $200. I'd just go the SBS route, then if you'd like a stock you can attach one in the future - with the AOW that's not allowed.



This is the important part.... before doing anything to the shotgun, you need to pay the tax and get the stamp (the receipt of payment). If you do anything that needs that tax before paying, you're up for a trip to Federal prison.

Carl N. Brown
July 7, 2005, 05:16 PM
I ran a shotgun from 30" down to 18.25" barrel length in approx. 2" steps.
I definitely should have left it at 22" Whether hunting or self-defence
hearing is one of you best defense weapons: those super short weapons
will leave you deaf. And blinded by muzzleflash if you have to fire at night.
My current shotguns have barrel lengths of 18.25, 20, 24, 28 and 30 inches.

hcker2000
July 7, 2005, 08:14 PM
How far past the ammo tube (for a lack of a better turm) is the actual barrel at 18 and 1/2?

joab
July 7, 2005, 08:30 PM
How far past the ammo tube (for a lack of a better turm) is the actual barrel at 18 and 1/2?

Depends on the gun

Left to right
Old Savge 69 E
Wincgester 1300
Norinco clone of Winchester 97
Remingto 870 with extended magazine

All are 18"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/bugman/777140c0.jpg

grimjaw
July 7, 2005, 10:45 PM
I had thought that the spread on a shorter barreled 12 gauge with 00 buck would be effective at close range. Then I thought, why stop at 12 gauge?

http://grimjaw.net/images/pardt10g.jpg

That's a H&R Pardner Turkey 10 gauge cut down from 24" to ~18-20". Hard for me to tell, looks like there's a choke in the picture and I don't know how they are measuring the barrel. Overall length of the shotgun would be 34", so legal on both counts. That's double the number of 00 buck pellets, in a 18" barrel with no choke. I have no idea of it's effectiveness or lack thereof. But I thought the idea was interesting. You could probably find a Pardner 10 gauge pretty cheap. No idea about the recoil, blast, or flash though.

If you just want to see if it can be done, go for broke.

jmm

hcker2000
July 8, 2005, 04:52 AM
That Remingto 870 looks good. Any chance you got a full pic of it and what price do those run?

Also how many rounds dose that hold? and was there any thing special paper work for the extended ammo tube?

joab
July 8, 2005, 06:39 AM
I buy almost all my guns used, but usually either unfired or like neww.

This one was around $250 I think, I traded some black powder guns for it.

Nothing special about the extended tube in Fla, your state my be different

I don't have a pic right now but someone here has one of their's.

I believe the round count is 8

Third_Rail
July 8, 2005, 07:03 AM
$250-$300, 8, no.


I know, after laws regarding barrel length you'd really think there would be nonsensical laws regarding magazine capacity, too. I'm glad there isn't.

hcker2000
July 8, 2005, 04:32 PM
So wate could I make the ammo tube match the barrel length of a 22" barrel and have it still legal?

Third_Rail
July 8, 2005, 04:34 PM
Absolutely! They even sell those, 10 shot I believe. :)

hcker2000
July 10, 2005, 02:02 AM
LOL thats nuts that I can buy a 10 + 1 shotgun but cant take a dubble and saw it off. Oh well what u going to do.

Humm I'm going to have to start hunting around for a cheap gun.

joab
July 10, 2005, 08:48 AM
LOL thats nuts that I can buy a 10 + 1 shotgun but cant take a dubble and saw it off. A sawed of double would be so much more deadly than a 10 round pumpgun.:rolleyes:

But check your state laws to make sure you're legal.

How short do you want your double to be an 18 inch SxS is shorter than an 18 inch pump or auto

hcker2000
July 11, 2005, 12:03 AM
Basicly as short as I can legaly have it and not have the feds ask every 5 min to messure the thing :D

Third_Rail
July 11, 2005, 12:45 AM
On most double shotguns you can saw the grip into a pistol grip, cut the barrels off at 18.5" (some models closer to 19") and still be legal.

hcker2000
July 11, 2005, 05:30 AM
So the OAL on a dubble with a 20" barrel and sawed off stock (to a pistol type) would be legal?

joab
July 11, 2005, 06:55 AM
The overall length of my SxS Warner would be right at 27 inches with the stock cut at the pistol grip and the barrels cut at 18 1/4

My Stevens would be uncomfortably close to 26 but that was a rough estimate, cause the barrels are not cut

wdlsguy
July 11, 2005, 12:32 PM
How are you guys measuring overall length? Here is the definition BATFE uses:

For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

27CFR479.11

Third_Rail
July 11, 2005, 03:14 PM
From one end to the other, squared off at the muzzle. Sounds right to me!

joab
July 11, 2005, 06:43 PM
The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore. Sounds right to me

hcker2000
July 12, 2005, 05:29 AM
I think what the rule is is that you have to mesure in a strate line from the end of the barrel strate down it and then where ever the last bit of gun is along that line is the OAL.

How much can SxS be had for? Thats realy what I wanted any way.

joab
July 12, 2005, 06:37 AM
You can get 18 and 20 inch SxS between $200 and $400


Both of mine were used less than $200. The 18" Warner was $75 (but that was a home hack job) 2 years ago

The full length Stevens was $120 5 years ago.

They're a lot more popular now so the average price is up but you can still find them if you look and are patient

hcker2000
July 13, 2005, 02:09 AM
Dang! wish I could pick me one up for $75 :)

What are the rules on folding stocks and foulding stocks + sawing the barrel down?

chopinbloc
July 13, 2005, 02:29 AM
mall ninja jr. strikes again.

chopinbloc
July 13, 2005, 02:32 AM
oh, and it may be considered illegal to cut any length off. if it is a break action, the atf considers that altering the serial number. if you want a short shotgun, buy it short from the factory. of course, one would have to actually buy a firearm and maybe even engage in the shooting sports, then.

joab
July 13, 2005, 06:54 AM
oh, and it may be considered illegal to cut any length off. if it is a break action, the atf considers that altering the serial number. Don't know about your state, but not in Fla. The serial number is on the receiverof course, one would have to actually buy a firearm and maybe even engage in the shooting sports, then. Exactly what shooting sports meet with your approval or does HD not countmall ninja jr. strikes again. Why the hate, the guy is asking questions about guns, maybe you should be over at L&PWhat are the rules on folding stocks and foulding stocks + sawing the barrel down? As long as all lengths are legal, depending on your state's laws

joab
July 13, 2005, 06:58 AM
But I do agree that buying one set already cut down is cheaper and if you go with a pump you could always buy a second , longer barrel to meet with others sporting purposes approval

hcker2000
July 13, 2005, 02:54 PM
Thats kind of what I was thinking. If I can get one with a foulding stock and a semi-short barrel I would probably do that as it seems like less work. Of corse price is a big consideration.

joab
July 13, 2005, 05:23 PM
If I can get one with a foulding stock and a semi-short barrel I would probably do that as it seems like less work. I got my 1300 for less than $150 in like new condition at a pawn shop
My Savage was around the same, as near as I can tell it's from the late 60's and doesn't have a mark or blemish on it. You could never convince me that it had ever been fired or handled.
The Remington was around $250, with the extended tube magazine and black furniture and parkerized finish already there. I only bought it because it would have cost almost that much to blacktac the 1300.

I don't like pistol grips or folders too much.
The pistol grip does not add enough in tacticality to equal what it takes away from the gun. If you need to use the gun in close quarter just tuck it to your
side. If you instinctually aim like you would a full stock SG your gonna get a broken nose.

Remember back in middle school when we did the trick with the pencil to make it look like it was rubber?
That's the effect that many folding stocks have.
My Nephew put one on an SKS and it made follow up shots almost impossible, you had to wait for the gun to stop wiggling before you could aim for the next shot

I think a full stock with a pistol grip is a better choice for SD, just my opinion

hcker2000
July 15, 2005, 05:17 AM
Yea probably the only good foulding stock is the top foulding ones that are realy expensive.

G. Glock
July 15, 2005, 09:30 AM
Double barrel shotguns offer a bit more of a challenge, at least in order to do a nice job. I've owned several "coach" guns, and I find that many of them are in the 20" to 21" inch range. One old junker I had, somebody had taken it down to just barely over 18", and it seemed surprisingly shorter. You wouldn't think a couple of inches would make much difference, but it really does.

I've considered taking my Stoeger or Rossie down to 18", but don't know that I'll fool with it.

It's definitely something you want to be careful about legally. As silly as the laws may seem, they are not worth dicking around with.

hcker2000
July 16, 2005, 11:29 PM
Yea that is my main concern is keeping every thing legal because thats all gun colectors/shooters need is more bad publicity.

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