Shooting guns on New Years


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Gordon
January 1, 2003, 12:38 AM
How many of you are gonna shoot your firearm to greet the coming year. In the city I have my business they have spared no expense to put sound triangulation sensors up all over residential areas. They activate them 20 Dec and shut them off 5 Jan to save lives from falling projectiles! I think I heard of somebody in Ripleys believe or not that got hit in head from falling bullet.Anybody ever hear of real very high trajectory damage. I don't think morons should shoot in town and they should be arrested but isnt this just more antigun panic? Why dont they keep sensors on 365days? I may shoot a 30-06 blank on my ranch however.:neener:

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Jorah
January 1, 2003, 12:49 AM
Nothing like the damage from drunk drivers, natch... in fact, pretty small numbers of injuries, but I still wouldn't want to be in the area where these things are falling:

http://www.beloitdailynews.com/1200/gunn30.htm

There is a slightly related thread here:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1350&highlight=Shotspotter

Blackhawk
January 1, 2003, 01:07 AM
I think I heard of somebody in Ripleys believe or not that got hit in head from falling bullet. You don't need Ripley's. Just check the January 1st editions of southwestern newspapers. Where I live there was a death on three of these "celebratory" times in nearly consecutive years, a child, a young woman, and I don't remember about the other.

Why more prevalaent in the southwest? Better weather and, I guess, more idiots firing guns in the air.... :(

Don45cal
January 1, 2003, 01:10 AM
Just think about the rules of firearms safety. Know your target and what is beyond.

Simple!! Don't do it!!!

trapshooter
January 1, 2003, 01:13 AM
discriminate between live rounds, blanks, and 'fireworks'.

Still don't have enough guys to respond in time.

"Yes, Officer, three guys of indeterminate description in a Nash Rambler stopped there at the corner, shot off three cherry bombs, then beat a caddy down the street".

Assuming anybody bothered to ask. This is even dumber than 'smart gun' technology.:neener: :ar15: :evil: :cool:

blades67
January 1, 2003, 01:18 AM
In Arizona we have "Shannon's Law" which makes random gunfire a felony. It was because of the 14 year old girl's death, due to a bullet fired into the air that struck her in the head while she was standing in her back yard talking on the phone, that this law came about. It does happen.

Gordon
January 1, 2003, 01:24 AM
I think that these injuries involved a gun not fired straight up, not that a drunk moron is gonna know which direction that is.:rolleyes:

trapshooter
January 1, 2003, 01:32 AM
Once, (not that long ago), an aquaintance and I went through two full belts of blanks with an M-60, and a couple of mags through M-14's (all legally owned), in a residential neighborhood to greet the new year. (None of that semi-auto 'controlled fire', either). Two loooong strings, and two fairly long strings.

Great fun. When the police showed up, we showed them the paper, the guns, and OUR badges. No prob. Some came back later after shift and joined the party. ;)

Gewehr98
January 1, 2003, 01:34 AM
Don't feel too guilty about it, either.

Just let rip on the beachside with 20 rounds of LC-76 7.62mm NATO BLANK ammo in my M14NM. Actually, I fired 5, the neighbors got to fire the remaining 15. Wish I had the blank adaptor, we had to cycle the action by hand. All involved wore hearing protection, too. :ar15:

4v50 Gary
January 1, 2003, 01:36 AM
Unless you live alone with no one around for over 10 miles, don't.

The best I've read is during the WW II in the Western Desert. Both the 8th Army and the Afrika Korps put on a dazzling show including AA with tracer rounds. Everything shot into the air of course so as to enjoy the best effect of the incendiaries.

waynzwld
January 1, 2003, 01:36 AM
I can remember one new years eve quite a few years ago where the falling projectiles sounded like hailstones hitting the roofs of my house and others in the neighborhood. There was some idiot in the area with a FA, and you could hear him rip off a couple of mags. When I heard them start hitting the roofs a few houses away, I stepped back inside till they stopped.:rolleyes:

Don C.
January 1, 2003, 01:36 AM
Will here about it in the news tomorrow morning. I live in suburban Chicago and there are always idiots who will go out on their front porch or wherever and celebrate by firing a gun in the air. Then when the police arrive, the drunken idiots have a tendency to point their guns at the officers who immediately eliminate the threat.

Blackhawk
January 1, 2003, 01:39 AM
Gordon,I think that these injuries involved a gun not fired straight up, not that a drunk moron is gonna know which direction that is.Any idea of how complicated the calculations are to shoot a gun "straight" up so that the bullet comes down close to where the gun was fired from?

Clue: it's NOT straight up.

Hint: the surface of the earth is moving at about 1,400 fps.

Hint: if the bullet launched straight up takes 5 seconds to return to earth, the launch point will have moved about 1.3 miles by the time it returns.

Hint: wind matters.

Hint: "Straight up" is not the same for any two points on earth, practically speaking.

Things get very complicated from there....

trapshooter
January 1, 2003, 01:40 AM
this year, it'll just be some fairly common fireworks, as I have no blank rounds.

For those who feel like it, and have the time, it's pretty easy to dump the shot out of shotgun shells. Still makes a real satisfying boom, if thats legal where you are. (If you fold the crimp over, they'll cycle through an 1100 pretty fast, too).;)

Got any of those WalMart cheapies laying around?:what: :D

(WARNING: Wads can kill at close range. Usual firearms safety rules still apply. Don't shoot at the cat, either.)

Hardtarget
January 1, 2003, 01:48 AM
My sister lives near Knoxville, Tn. Her neighbor showed her & husband hole in carport roof and .22 caliber lead bullet laying on the concrete. Probably a little bit to think of. I know it can happen...but the probability has got to be low....but I don't do that because I wouldn't to get hit! What a bummer! Walk outside and get smacked down like that!:eek:
Mark.

TheLastBoyScout
January 1, 2003, 01:48 AM
for future reference, does anyone make/sell centerfire rifle blanks, and what would be the legalities involved with lighting off a mag or 2 of BLANKS into the air?

Gordon
January 1, 2003, 02:11 AM
A FIREARM is A FIREARM in regards tom dischargeing blanks in town. Once again I mean when a bullets reachs its apogee in an upward vector hitting near 0 velocity before beginning its downward acceleration limited by air drag. Thats why they sound like "hale" on roof. If it has a trajectory then someones gonna get hurt. Any way a foolish stunt that Sadam often pulls off with his mannlicher. All the rags are always shooting thir guns off, I dont think they are blanks!:evil:

Redlg155
January 1, 2003, 02:17 AM
As I sit here right now there are gunshots down the block.

Idiots and slightly troubling since down the block is a sector of rent controlled housing...aka projects.

Wanna bet if any of them are legally registered?

Good SHooting
RED

trapshooter
January 1, 2003, 02:20 AM
[QUOTE]Hint: the surface of the earth is moving at about 1,400 fps.

[Hint: if the bullet launched straight up takes 5 seconds to return to earth, the launch point will have moved about 1.3 miles by the time it returns. [QUOTE]

One more hint: Everything involved, gun, shooter, cartridge, etc., is also moving at same speed. Bullet path describes a parabola, and absent wind, if fired straight up, will fall pretty much back at point of departure from surface.

Not that this is recommended. Blanks are ok, live rounds kind of risky, at best. Fireworks even better (assuming not aerials).

Oh, yeah. I don't live in 'town'. What restrictions the townies are saddled with (which depends on what town, in any case), don't concern me. Laws vary. Check yours.

dfrog
January 1, 2003, 02:26 AM
If you have to shoot your weapon on any occasion, do it into the ground and not into the air. The bullet has to come down somewhere. Do you want to be the target of someone else?:scrutiny:

rick_reno
January 1, 2003, 02:27 AM
Fireworks are legal here.

ATF has a good warning about this practice...

http://www.atf.treas.gov/press/fy03press/field/122702sf_celebgunfirelethal.htm

CELEBRATORY GUNFIRE CAN BE LETHAL
San Francisco, CA - Every New Year's Eve there are unintended victims injured, sometimes even killed, by an extremely dangerous ritual - celebratory gunfire. ATF is trying to reach the public through the media to remind people just how dangerous this practice can be. "During this time of New Year resolution, let us resolve not to have any more tragedy as a result of celebratory gunfire", said John A. Torres, Special Agent In Charge, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, San Francisco Field Division

Discharge of a firearm into the air is a crime and can lead to felony charges under State law. Additionally, those who choose this method to "celebrate" may not be aware of the very serious potential for harm when the bullets return to the ground. Bullets shot into the air can climb to two miles. The bullets can then fall at a rate of 300 to 700 feet per second. Studies have shown that the force of a bullet traveling at 100 feet per second can penetrate skin and 200 feet per second can penetrate bone. Around the country many people have been seriously injured, permanently disabled, and even killed by celebratory gunfire. If a stray bullet should kill someone, the shooter can be arrested and charged with murder.

Special Agent in Charge Torres is asking the public " please, celebrate responsibly and safely. If you see anyone shooting a gun into the air, contact your local police department immediately."

denfoote
January 1, 2003, 02:34 AM
Shannon's law.

http://www.arizonarepublic.com/arizona/articles/1231phxshannonslaw31.html

One of those Riply's Believe it or not deaths!!! :rolleyes:

Major felony in AZ!!! :cool:

Don C.
January 1, 2003, 02:35 AM
Just a bad idea to be shooting into the air. As Gordon indicated, someone's going to get hurt. If there is a trajectory, it is going to hit something. If you opt to shoot perfectly straight up, although probably very difficult to do, it will come down on your own head. (The Coriolis Effect due to the rotation of the Earth would come into play with very long range missiles). Even if you don't shoot but decide to aim it at like a Chicago cop against his advice, you're going to get hurt. Hear about these things every year after New Year's Eve.

Marshall
January 1, 2003, 02:37 AM
We generaly fire off our shotguns with bird shot. Many time we have stood in our backyard and shot strait up in the air and let the shot rain down on us. I have very large field behind the house now, even though I am in city limits, we just shoot out over the field and let the shot rain down there. Clean ritual and no one gets hurts!

Marshall :cool:

denfoote
January 1, 2003, 02:46 AM
That would get you 2 years in prison, $100,000 fine , major Felony conviction and loss of gun rights forever here in Arizona!!! :cool:

Justin
January 1, 2003, 02:48 AM
:banghead:

I fail to see how this is even a discussion worth having.
Nowhere does it say that 'The 4 rules of gun safety apply every single second of every day of the year, except for on New Year's.'

If you indiscriminately fire a gun in the air to celebrate New Year's, or any other occassion, you are a total flipping moron.

Just so everyone can review:

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET

Pointman
January 1, 2003, 03:05 AM
Seems all the local news programs here had warning messages about shooting off guns in celebration and the illegality of it inside city or township limits.

At least they didn't go around a put tape on our muzzles... :ar15:

trapshooter
January 1, 2003, 03:13 AM
If you indiscriminately fire a gun in the air to celebrate New Year's, or any other occassion, you are a total flipping moron.

I would agree if this statement is changed to read:

"If you indiscriminately fire live rounds from a gun in the air to celebrate New Year's, or any other occassion, you are a total flipping moron".

If it's never ok to fire blanks, then there are going to be a lot of hacked off people out there. I'm not talking about New Years Eve, necessarily, either.

Once we allow exceptions, and there are exceptions to the rules, with blank rounds, then we have to admit that intelligent discretion is ok.

I reiterate, for the sake of clarity. With BLANKS! If examples are required, I can name several that we all will agree to.

I'm speaking of technical violations of Rules I, II, and IV, from Justin's (oops, edit) last post, BTW.

prhm
January 1, 2003, 03:23 AM
I stopped by a bodyshop one day to do a service call and they were working on a truck that was hit by a 22 round falling back. It made a decent sized dent in the roof. Don't do it.

Gewehr98
January 1, 2003, 03:23 AM
Guess that makes me a moron. Each 4th of July and New Years. Why, they oughtta revoke my NRA Range Officer and Hunter Safety Instructor certifications...:rolleyes:

Ala Dan
January 1, 2003, 03:35 AM
is a stupid and senseless act. I DO NOT condone
these act's as celebrated on New Year's or the 4th of July.
Responsible persons should not engage in this type
of activity. Gunfire should be reserved for the local firing
range; under the supervision of a qualified range
officer.

People have not only been killed by projectiles falling from
the sky; but numerous property damage report's will surface
in the day's following this act!:uhoh: Stay safe, and shoot
straight, and may all of your bullet's fall into the X-ring!

*FootNote: Also, when firing a weapon into the ground
what if you happen to rupture a gas main, or water line?
It could become quite expensive, and negate the funds
you have reserved for that next gun purchase!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

Nanook
January 1, 2003, 09:39 AM
I grew up Chicago; it's pretty much a ritual there in some neighborhoods. While I heard gunfire on many occasions, the only time I actually saw it being done was my next door neighbor who was a Chicago cop. Go figure.

At the time this happened, I was not a gunowner, except for a Sheridan Blue Streak. I didn't even shoot that into the air. :rolleyes:

Guyon
January 1, 2003, 10:00 AM
If you want to shoot on New Year's Eve, build your own outdoor range and fire real ammo. Shooting guns into the air is pure silliness.

GD
January 1, 2003, 11:49 AM
Thanks Trapshooter for correcting Blackhawks misuse of physics. The trajectory of the bullet will be roughly parabolic with the terminal velocity quite a bit less than initial velocity due to friction. I haven't done the calculation but I would suspect that the final velocity of a bullet fired nearly vertical would be so low that if it did penetrate skin, it wouldn't go too far in flesh. Me thinks that these killings or serious woundings were done by bullets fired at a low trajectory.

ojibweindian
January 1, 2003, 12:05 PM
I must admit to this practice on New Years and the 4th of July. However, I practice it with a single-shot 12 guage and light loads using 8 shot. The direction in which I fire has 1/2 mile of woods with no dwellings.

55645
January 1, 2003, 12:38 PM
Quote: "Thanks Trapshooter for correcting Blackhawks misuse of physics. The trajectory of the bullet will be roughly parabolic with the terminal velocity quite a bit less than initial velocity due to friction. I haven't done the calculation but I would suspect that the final velocity of a bullet fired nearly vertical would be so low that if it did penetrate skin, it wouldn't go too far in flesh. Me thinks that these killings or serious woundings were done by bullets fired at a low trajectory."

January 1st, 2003 03:49 PM

A bullet fired straight up will eventually slow down and for a fraction of a second stop before gravity acts upon it and causes it to begin to fall back to earth. Any object falling in the atmosphere will continue to accelerate until it reaches what is called its terminal velocity. This terminal velocity varies with the aerodydynics of the object but in the case of a bullet it is about 140 mph.
In an experiment (it may have been at Florida State), a 180gr. bullet was fired straight up and upon landing it made a 1/16" dent in a pine board. In the town of Normandy, after the battle of Normandy, bullets were found imbedded base down in the tar covered roofs of buildings. The point being that bullets which are merely falling are not partcularly lethal.
Bullets fired into the air cause damage because they are rarely fired straight up. If the bullet is fired at an angle, say 45 degrees, it will describe a shallower parabola and retain much of its initial muzzle velocity upon impact.

trapshooter
January 1, 2003, 12:48 PM
While we are sometimes 'inaccurate' regarding trajectories, for a number of reasons, downrange considerations still apply. I just think that knowledge of where your bullet might go needs to be based on real science.

I agree that 'most' of the injuries/deaths from these type instances are from 'depressed trajectory' shots than the shooters admit to, but I also agree that a bullet of known mass falling back to earth from max height can hurt, wound, and even kill.

Thats why I would restrict 'air' shooting to blanks only, and only in places where it isn't against the law.

I don't think that ojibweindian is necessarily being irresponsible, on the other hand. How many bird hunters out there? Ever shoot a bird out in the field? We you absolutely, positively, 100%, sure that no one was downrange (at any distance when you killed (or didn't kill) said prospective dinner? I worked at an old trap range as a youth. Downrange was a heavily travelled highway, car dealers, stores, etc. We were there first. Any shot load fell far short of 'danger'. But what prevented a slug load? Nothing more than the intelligence of the shooters. We didn't strip search everyone for ammo types.

How about a rifle shot at that buck? Do you have perfect knowledge of what constitutes 'downrange', all the time, every time?

I think we have to temper our zeal a bit, and recognize that extremism, in any form, is not a reasonable position. Whatever the rule, there are always exceptions. It's a judgement call. We can have our opinions, but implying that someone is a 'moron' because they do something that doesn't suit your particular standard, or local ordinance, is maybe a bit beyond the pale.

TallPine
January 1, 2003, 12:57 PM
Gunfire should be reserved for the local firing
range; under the supervision of a qualified range
officer.

So are we supposed to hire a "qualified range officer" to go hunting with us ????? Or only hunt on the firing range? At the range where I shoot, killing wildlife is prohibited.

This statement is as moronic as firing guns in the air or New Years or July 4th. :rolleyes:

armabill
January 1, 2003, 01:36 PM
Ouch!!

mzenzer
January 1, 2003, 01:45 PM
You wanna shoot during new years then shoot on private property in a legal area or at a range. What is NOT cool is shooting indiscriminately into the air within city limits.

Here in New Orleans we made national headlines a few years ago because a tourist was hit in the head by a falling bullet.

Blackhawk
January 1, 2003, 01:59 PM
GD,Thanks Trapshooter for correcting Blackhawks misuse of physics. Really? He added one more hint.I haven't done the calculation but I would suspect that the final velocity of a bullet fired nearly vertical would be so low that if it did penetrate skin, it wouldn't go too far in flesh.If you opt for the pragmatic solution instead of doing the caluculations, I'd suggest making sure you have some good overhead cover you can duck under after firing each round.... :rolleyes:

Hint: The terminal velocity of the tumbling, descending slug will be about 200 fps.

Topgun
January 1, 2003, 02:28 PM
.

TexasVet
January 1, 2003, 08:55 PM
Well, it sounded like WW2 out here in the East Texaswoods last night. And a lot of those 'fireworks' went in strings of 6!:cuss: idiots!

Phyphor
January 1, 2003, 10:21 PM
Yea, here in Kali it sounded like fscking Mogadishu, Somalia outside....

Ala Dan
January 1, 2003, 11:04 PM
Here in central DixieLand, it sounded like little Viet-Nam;
all over again!:evil: :cuss:

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. LIfe Member

Tamara
January 1, 2003, 11:24 PM
I shot 20 rounds of 5.56 off the front porch.

M200 5.56 blanks, that is.

If it hadn't been peeing down rain, I'd've gone in the back yard and used live ammo on the range. :D

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