[klover]

Got to know a good doctor who's anti. I tried hard to figure a subtle approach to help him understand how I came to value gun ownership.
I mentioned that I grew up among shooters.
Mentioned several self defense situations where it was clear cut survival to possess superior firepower (AK 47) to deter crime. I think I convinced him to at least think that blanket laws can put innocent people at risk.
What other arugements or examples might be convincing to a very sharp health minded MD?

[logical]

He probably has a similar frustration trying to get people to exercise a little.

[sacp81170a]

Here's a good place to start:

http://www.guncite.com/

Read this site over carefully and you'll most of what you're looking for and links to the rest.

[EghtySx]

I have never had anyone answer the arguement of who gun laws effect. Criminals break laws. Only the people who are law abiding in the first place are gonna obey any laws at all. If you obey laws you aren't a criminal.

[Standing Wolf]

I'd find another good doctor. They're admittedly not half so common as they used to be, but I still hate giving my hard-earned money to people who've openly stated their intention to turn me into a serf.

[Cesiumsponge]

Perhaps ask him how all the legislation and law in the world can stop criminals when by definition, criminals don't follow laws to begin with? Its like lowering the speed limit in a 35MPH zone to 25MPH when some punk breaks the law and speeds by. It only affects people who follow the law to begin with.

When you lower speed limits, it inconveniences people. When you erode the abilities of those to effectively defend themselves against aggressors by passing further gun laws and legislation, it's no longer inconvenient for civilians; it jeopardizes their abilities to protect themselves.

I hate to play stereotypical gender cards, but a woman stands a much better chance fending off a rapist with a .38 in her purse than her screams. Mace and pepper spray, or tasers, have proven hit-or-miss at best and sprays can blow back into your face with a mild breeze. Ask your doctor if he would trust his life to seatbelts and airbags that worked 50-75% of the time in the unlikely and unfortunate event he got into an accident. I doubt he will.


I'm sure he has accepted the "13 children die a day due to gunfire" statistics. Analyze how a biased study got that number, what they define as the age range of "children", how many were gangbangers or suicides, and how many actual children die from accidental gunshots. Then pull up non-biased CDC studies on youth deaths and compare the risks of gun deaths in a home versus something as "harmless and mundane" as falls, SIDS, pools, burns, trampolines, those motorized minibikes, etc. Cite your sources and make sure they are credible. He won't believe information that comes from Bob's Wonderful Geocities Gun Statistics website.

You'll have to first make a dent, then work on widening the crack in his anti-gun stance.

[nico]

Is this your doctor, or a friend who happens to be a doctor? The best remedy I can think of for a case of antiitis is a trip to the range. It's awfully hard to keep telling yourself something is evil when you have fun doing it

[The_Antibubba]

Use medical analogies to get through to him. Ask him, for example:

-Does he think that pseudophedrine (Sudafed), a safe, inexpensive, and effective decongestant, should be restricted because a very tiny portion of the population will use it to create crystal meth?

-Should depressed teenagers be denied antidepressant medication because a small number of them are at increased risk of suicide while on them?

-Oxycontin is often the last and only option for people in extreme pain who do not respond to other painkillers, but it is the most-stolen narcotic and is referred to as "hillbilly heroin" to it's illicit abusers. Should we ban it and let the law-abiding users suffer in terrible agony to prevent it from being misused?

Etc.

If he gives you statistics, point this out:

-Last year, 8000 people were killed by firearms in America (NOTE: I'm making up these numbers-you'll have to do the research to find out the latest figures!), with an estimated 300 million known firearms. Meanwhile, 100,000 people died from medical errors, with only 2.75 million doctors. Point out that the percentage of people killed by medicine is much higher than the percentage of people killed by guns. Ask him if he feels that more American lives could be saved if we banned doctors :D . Ask him if he feels that perhaps statistics might not present an accurate picture of events, and that, perhaps, they can be twisted to support any viewpoint?

Finally, remember where the impulse to ban something comes from. It comes from fear, and the root of fear is ignorance. Take him to the range. Teach him gun safety. Take your .22s and cowboy guns-leave the AK and magnums in the case until he expresses the desire to shoot them :evil: If he resists wanting to learn anything about guns, ask him how he feels about parents who don't vaccinate their kids because someone in People Magazine or on Ricki Lake said that the preservative in the vaccine made their child autistic. Ask him-should you listen to the AMA and the bulk of medical research, or to a ratings-seeking daytime TV host trying to up her ratings-when it comes to protecting a child from diptheria or whooping cough?

Go for the gut, but do it in a high-minded way. :D

[cuchulainn]

Ask him if he feels that more American lives could be saved if we banned doctors Do this if you want to lose him -- if you want to make him think you're a fool given to specious apple-and-oranges reasoning -- if you want him to think you're lashing out at his profession in desperation.

Yes, banning doctors is as stupid as banning guns. The problem is that if you understand why, you already believe that guns have a value that far outweighs their risk. If you understand that value, you're already converted.

Thus this "ban doctors" silliness has little use except to get a chuckle out of people on our side. It doesn't convert people from the other side -- in fact, it probably makes them stop listening.

[Crosshair]

Use the statistic of how many kids die in 5 gallon pails. That one is a good one. IIRC manny more kids die in pails than from guns. Again, you need to look it up you're self.

[beerslurpy]

Put a ski-mask on, rob him and pistol whip him until he passes out. If that doesnt cause him to come around, nothing will. Actually I thought of a great way to influence our lawmakers. </falls into the ditch on the side of the highroad>

More seriously, ask him what he thinks people should do when be attacked. When he says call the police, remind him the police have no duty to respond and that they often take hours to respond (if at all). I find this works wonders on most people. Tell him about the recent supreme court case of Castle Rock vs Gonzales and about the earlier Deshaney v Winnebago County in which the supreme court has repeatedly ruled that the police have no duty to protect you even if you have a restraining order or they have put you under special protection.

[Art Eatman]

I'm 71 years old, tomorrow. In all this time, I've never had a major car wreck, although I've had many 40,000 miles/year years.

I've never been sued for injuries due to hazards around my home. I've never had a house fire or a burglary.

But I've always carried ample insurance for liability and damages.

To me, a self-defense firearm is just another form of insurance. From various court decisions, I am the only one directly responsible for my physical safety. I have an absolute right to ensure my Civil Right of protecting my "health and happiness and all that stuff". To me, this is much more a 14th Amendment deal than 2nd Amendment: Equal protection under the law.

Ask that doctor to read the Preamble to the Bill of Rights. It therein uses phrasing about restricting against abuse of power by the central government as being the purpose of the Bill of Rights. Restrictions on the State in favor of the people cannot simultaneously be restrictions on The People.

Art

[dolanp]

The_AntiBubba has good suggestions. Put it into analogies that he as a doctor can understand. Think of examples that follow the same reasoning as the gun debate minus all the stigma. If he can understand the underlying principle of your beliefs and perhaps agree with them, he will probably respect why you apply the same principle to gun ownership.

[Yanus]

My approach to dealing with antis?

"Never argue with a fool. It solves nothing and it annoys the fool" - Unknown

Yanus

[centac]

Why do anything? He is entitled to his opinion, and you, yours. The only person who can change his mind is him.

Let's say he golfs, which in my opinion is, er, pointless. Nothing he can say will change my mind, I have to do that myself, it would probably help if he took me golfing so I could be better informed.

Take him shooting, the rest will take care of itself.

[Yanus]

Happy Birthday, Art!....... :)

"May you be in heaven half an hour, before the devil knows you're dead!" Unknown

Yanus

[artherd]

I have an absolute right to ensure my Civil Right of protecting my "health and happiness and all that stuff".

There's a good reason we have about 6 ammendments and/or articles dedicated to this very principle.

[NukemJim]

This probably will not help but you might refer him to the CDC review of gun control studies ( 12/03 IIRC ) that reviews 51 of them ( including the Lott-Mustard study ) and said all were not valid.
Also the National Academy of Sciences review of gun control literature (1/04 IIRC ) that reviewed even more studies and again found all were not valid ( one dissenting opinoin said the Lott-Mustard study was valid )
You might also goto WWW.JPFO.org ( I hope that works correctly I am NOT a technogeek unfortunetly ) they have a number of articles that would help you in a logical debate.

Be forewarned that gun control is usually a emotional argument, i.e. do not confuse him/her with facts their mind is made up. Both my brother and sisterinlaw are Mds and antis. :banghead:

Good luck

NukemJim

[XLMiguel]

People are not made safer by disarming them. One only has to look to world history to see that all of the major holocosts and geneocides have been preceeded by disarming the population. Crimianl violence is no different except for the scale.

[iapetus]

Yanus
My approach to dealing with antis?

"Never argue with a fool. It solves nothing and it annoys the fool" - Unknown

Yanus

I prefer:

"Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."


That said, not all antis are fools/idiots. Many are either misinformed, or have a different view about the proper relationship between individuals and the state.