Weekend idiocy at public range in Arkansas


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hillbilly
July 5, 2005, 12:04 PM
On July 3, I attempted to take two very good friends to the range with my wife.....It was at the public range in the Hobbs Management Area east of Rogers, Arkansas, along Beaver Lake.

I had already taken the nephews of my good friends to the same range the day before as we waited for the friends to arrive from their long drive from Michigan. That day, July 2, was very good.....all the shooters at the range were safe and friendly. The nephews fired their first handguns and had a good time.

Well, when we returned to the range the next day, July 3, we found a much less enjoyable situation.

One one end of the firing line were two guys hammering away with a fully-auto AR-15 variant.

Now, I like fully-auto, but understand this range has only five firing positions spread over about 40 feet and under a very stout pavilion roof. Under that heavy cover, and in that close proximity, the percussive force of the fully-auto rips was very unpleasant even with adequate hearing protection.

But that's not why we didn't shoot there that day.

The reason we didn't shoot that day was because there was a group of five or six Hispanics on the other end of the firing line, taking turns shooting pistols casually with one-handed grips and about half-way through a case of Miller Lite with their off-hands.

I mean two of them were standing at the firing line shooting at the 25-yard-line targets one-handed, cradling open beer cans in their other hands.

There were at least 8 or 9 opened beer cans on the range table with the assorted handguns and boxes of ammo and there was a cooler near by.

Because we had heard the loud fully-auto bursts from the parking lot, I offered to go up and check out the line before my friends and my wife came up with our guns and ammo.

First I looked at the fully-auto guys, and felt jealous. In fact, I was so absorbed by the machine gun, that it took me about 30 seconds for my mind to comprehend the situation at the firing point to my immediate left, and that I had actually had to walk right past to see the guys shooting the full-auto AR.

And no, this is a public range with a big red sign that says "PUBLIC RANGE. NO SAFETY OFFICER ON DUTY. SHOOT AT YOUR OWN RISK."

I walked back to the vehicle, said there was a group of folks drinking beer and shooting pistols at the range, and we all got back in the car and left immediately.

hillbilly

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walt007
July 5, 2005, 12:44 PM
Wow! You gotta love Arkansas!

I took a few buddies to a local shooting range located in Plano, Texas. First of all, this range does not allow auto-fire or for that matter more than two shots fired rapidly due to most people losing accuracy after the first-second recoil.

One of my buddies was drinking a coke in a big plastic cup during his breaks. As soon as one of the employees walked into the range, they promptly confiscated his drink. At first this angered me, but then he explained his reasoning: drinking anything while shooting guns in an enclosed facility causes a person to swallow lead with his/her drink and hence obtain lead poisoning - which is deadly. With lead poisoning, your memory goes first so you never know what is happening until death occurs.

Does this range charge any fees? Is there not someone who monitors the activity at all? Just want to make sure I understand the type of establishment you are referring to.

hillbilly
July 5, 2005, 12:50 PM
This is a public range put up by the Game and Fish Commission.

There are several of these ranges in Arkansas.

It is actually a very nice facility. It is not indoors. It is outdoors, with 100 yards and a dirt berm and big bullet trap at the bottom of the berm.

These ranges are free and open to the public. No range safety officers. Shoot at your own risk.

hillbilly

dolanp
July 5, 2005, 01:17 PM
Still ought to be illegal for people to be publicly discharging firearms while drinking alcohol.

walt007
July 5, 2005, 01:32 PM
This range sounds like it could have a lot of potential... with the right crowd. Unfortunantly, places as such that do not provide a fee for use and do not have a qualified range officer on duty seem to be a recipe for disaster.

You have paid good money, I'm sure, for your guns, pay $10-15 a visit to shoot them in safety. Your life, and your friends lives, are worth the lousy range fee.

I'm just glad to hear that you did not decide to stick around and wait till the Hispanics got a hold of the auto or the guy firing the auto got a hold of the Hispanics' beer.

Wise choice IMHO!

grimjaw
July 5, 2005, 01:42 PM
hillbilly,

I shot at a public range in Arkansas in June, near Danville. We had the place to ourselves the first day. Second day more people showed up, but still wasn't crowded. We approached the first group to try and agree on range rules, but they just kind of shrugged it off. The three folks (one male, two females) shooting with us the second day would shout with laughter 'MOVING TARGETS!' whenever we went downrange during a cease fire. The male finally tired of shooting and went to have a beer, fell asleep in their minivan (thank goodness for small favors).

At most of the state parks I've been to there, somebody always shows up drinking or drunk. If they don't show up, then you find their campfire littered with beer cans.

With so much private land that you can shoot on there, I would guess there's little incentive to fund range officers. I would have welcomed them on that day. State may not be able to justify the money spent; not enough people shot at public ranges. More drunk driving accidents leaving the range than AD/ND. :uhoh:

Arkansas seems to be getting worse every time I visit or hear about it.

jmm

Rockrivr1
July 5, 2005, 01:44 PM
You made a good choice not going up there to shoot. At the minimum it sounds like it would of been crowded. At worst, well as we all know, alcohol and shooting is a mixture for disaster. Hell, Alcohol and most things are a mixture for disaster. You know, like being bagged by your future wife while checking out a super hottie wearing practically nothing after you've had a couple of wobbly pops. I'm not admitting to it mind you, but lets just say my ride home last Saturday night was not a pleasant one. :(

R.H. Lee
July 5, 2005, 01:45 PM
Aren't there posted rules that include "No Alcohol"? Public range.........who owns it? Whose liability is it?

wmenorr67
July 5, 2005, 01:53 PM
I would have contacted the sheriff and/or Highway Patrol and notified them of the drinking at the range.

hillbilly
July 5, 2005, 02:03 PM
I'm a native Arkansan.

In Arkansas, there aren't a lot of pay-per-shoot ranges because lots and lots of folks still have access to private land to shoot on.

For example, I have a 40 yard handgun range in my backyard, with the beginnings of a 200 yard rifle range on my own 30 acres.

I belong to a local private gun club only because they have a 300 yard rifle range that I like to use.

There are several free and public ranges set up around Arkansas by the Game and Fish Commission. For example, down near my hometown of Waldron, there is such a range dedicated to the memory of a Waldron resident who died while fighting a forest fire.

These ranges can be pretty nice with covered shooting lines, handicapped access, state-park type outdoor toilet facilities, safety berms, target frames, etc. etc.

On the one hand, free and public ranges with no range officers or staff there can be potentially dangerous.

But on the other hand, they are also very free and open places very conducive to devloping and practicing personal responsibility and decision making.....you know, that ugly "f-word".............. freedom?

I have also seen plenty of stupid, unsafe, and downright dangerous things at pay-per-shoot ranges with attendees and range officers and climate control, etc. etc.

I have also been hassled by over-zealous range nazis who were working at very nice pay-per-shoot ranges. I've been yelled at because I wasn't waiting the full two required seconds between each of my pistol shots. I'd rather not spend the $15 to get yelled at for no good reason.

At such a public shooting range, I have the choice of shooting there, or just leaving. Or I can actually talk to people and try to work out proper range etiquette and procedure.

That day, with folks drinking beer while shooting handguns, I made the choice to leave.


As has been suggested, calling the local cops might have been a good choice. I actually thought about it for maybe 5 seconds, but figured it would not have done any good.

I doubt seriously anyone would have actually responded to the call. They wouldn't have bothered until somebody actually got shot first.

hillbilly

Justin
July 5, 2005, 02:07 PM
It's my understanding that, at least among Mexican silhouette shooters, drinking a beer while shooting is practically required. So it could very well be a cultural thing.

This from a guy I know who used to shoot Silhouette competitively.


That saidô it doesn't change the fact that shooting and drinking absolutely never go together, and that it's terribly unsafe habit, doubly so since they were drinking *shudder* Miller Lite. You made the right choice in leaving the range.

Vernal45
July 5, 2005, 02:07 PM
That day, with folks drinking beer while shooting handguns, I made the choice to leave.



You made the right choice, the only choice you could have made. Alcohol and guns, bad juju. Where alcohol and guns are together, Darwin is somewhere lurking, waiting to strike.

hillbilly
July 5, 2005, 02:11 PM
Justin....I'd say it's not just a Mexican cultural thing.

I know of a family group of lilly-white rednecks who do a very fine, interesting precision shooting game at long range with progressively smaller clay targets on a board.

Only they drink beer by the case as they shoot the targets with precision bolt-action, scope rifles from several hundred yards away.

I went once by invitation, really liked the game, but have never been back because of the heavy beer drinking.

I also know of, through a friend of mine, another group of lilly-white rednecks who drink beer heavily while shooting doves during the annual dove season.

One of them was even shot in the face with several shotgun pellets one year, but from what I hear, they still continue to drink the beer before, during, and after the dove shooting.

hillbilly

Ole-sailor
July 5, 2005, 02:29 PM
Hillbilly:

You are one of the smarter gun owners! BUT, we all have read your thread with the same thought: Here comes another GUN LAW to protect us from the crazies!!

It is really sad how the jerks in this country work overtime to have our freedom destroyed!

Ole-Sailor

MikeIsaj
July 5, 2005, 03:45 PM
Yep, more gun laws will eventually follow this type of behavior. That's why it is important for all of us to do our part in stopping it before the legislature decides to help us.

Re: "A cultural thing", This is America, we are a civil society. We also have cultural things and since you are in our house, you should do as we wish.

Hillbilly, you did half of the right thing. You took immediate action to protect your family. You also should have called the cops. I don't know if Ar. has any law about shooting while drinking but, I am sure there is a disorderly conduct law and a public intoxication law. Unfortunatly the bad guys won this round because they were allowed to commit criminal behavior on public land, while the good folks (you and yours) were deprived of the use of the public range.

Next time call the police. What they do with the call is up to them. Your civic responsibility is to make them aware of criminal activity. Most agencies catalog calls. They are then studied in prevention efforts. If a particular problem area is identified, it gets attention. In this case it won't because no one reported the problem.

mfree
July 5, 2005, 03:53 PM
Sounds like they need the beer to get over the fear of shooting with each other... *shudder*.

Buck Snort
July 5, 2005, 04:16 PM
When I finally escape from the PRC I'm thinking that maybe Arkansas will not be on my short list of states to move to!!

Standing Wolf
July 5, 2005, 07:20 PM
...shooting pistols casually with one-handed grips...

I shoot single-handed 99.9% of the timeóbut I don't ever drink and shoot.

torpid
July 5, 2005, 07:49 PM
hillbilly-

Good call on leaving when you did, but your posts make you seem a bit prejudiced...

...against one-handed grip shooters.


.

Zundfolge
July 5, 2005, 07:59 PM
I would never recommend drinking and shooting (especially drinking on the firing line), but I have a very mild essential tremor and frankly a single beer before shooting (and maybe a second after a couple hours of shooting) would probably improve my groups significantly.


I used to shoot darts down at the pub and I found that I shot a LOT better after one or two beers (but no more ... any more and my performance started to lag ... too much more and I started making stupid bets :p ).

MountainPeak
July 5, 2005, 08:11 PM
Justin, since you are a moderator here, I'm surprised you can get away with such obvious prejudicial behaviour. Everyone know there isn't amything wrong with Miller Lite. Bet you drink some sissy foreign beer!! ;) :neener:

Sir Aardvark
July 5, 2005, 08:28 PM
Looks like they need to start charging $$ to use the range - that way it will keep the Riff-Raff out.

iamkris
July 5, 2005, 10:18 PM
Hey hillbilly

Didn't you just have a post talking about how much you hated Illinois and couldn't wait to get back to Arkansas? Looks like some of those folks from Joliet followed you home... :D

DT Guy
July 5, 2005, 10:26 PM
The funniest/scariest time I've ever had at a range also (surely just by coincidence) involved a group of Hispanics:

While using a now-defunct range here in Illinoize, where carrying a gun is sehr verboten, my dad and I were surprised to see some Hispanic guys walk in with a few boxes of ammo and no guns-no range bags-nothing-just a couple boxes of ammo.

Then they all rip pistolas out of their waistbands and start waving them around prior to popping off some rounds, sans targets, mind you, in the GENERAL direction of downrange. I saw my somewhat portly dad actually approach a decent sprint that day...


Larry

Derby FALs
July 5, 2005, 10:33 PM
As long as both ends of the range had fun and no one got hurt, I'd say it was a good day. :neener:

MAURICE
July 5, 2005, 10:34 PM
Wow. I shoot up at Hobbs quite a bit and never have had any trouble. The craziest thing I've seen there was a younger guy holding an AK in one hand and an AR in another, just blazing away. He wasnt hitting anything, but he did have the rifles pointed in the right direction and was grinning from ear to ear-I know I would be- so I said nothing. Got to talking and he was actually very safety concious, knowledgeable, and friendly.

Wise decision not to shoot that day.

Bacon
July 5, 2005, 10:56 PM
hillbilly,
Stories like yours are why I try to shoot during the week. Still see some crazy stuff but I think the weekends are worse.

454c
July 6, 2005, 06:06 AM
IIRC,alcohol was banned from AG&F property a couple years ago.

Clean97GTI
July 6, 2005, 06:46 AM
Still ought to be illegal for people to be publicly discharging firearms while drinking alcohol.

Its illegal to kill people too and we can see how well that works out.

I would have called the police had this been in my state. Using firearms while intoxicated is a big no-no here.

The Freeholder
July 6, 2005, 09:51 AM
Hillbilly, +1 for excellent judgement.

It was things like this that motivated me to join a private range.

hso
July 6, 2005, 10:56 AM
Good move. Alcohol and Ammuniton make for a dangerous cocktail.

thatguy
July 6, 2005, 10:58 AM
My buddy is from AR. As I recall about 60% of Arkansas is dry, no booze allowed within the specific county, and all of Arkansas enforces Draconian liquor laws. No Sunday sales, no pitchers in bars or restaurants, maybe no kegs (not sure on this). Also, drinks in bars are taxed at 33% to discourage drinking. Booze in Arkansas is like guns in California. Shooting is ususally fine in AR, but if you like to drink live elsewhere.

I know that KY and I think TX also have dry counties.

I would have called the cops on the drunks. Public drinking, public endangerment, immigration status (perhaps), plus who knows how many other laws were being violated and it was directly affecting others. All you people who badgered me about the gang-banger straw-buying a handgun can wail all you want, there were crimes being committed here and public safety was being compromised in addition to infringing on the rights of others to use the facility.

I would have waited out the M16 guys. They usually go through their ammo pretty fast. I would bet that their gun wasn't legal.

No_Brakes23
July 6, 2005, 12:42 PM
My shooting and my golf game get better with one or two beers. Mixing Guns and Liquor has a LOT of risk, (And isn't something I do very often,) but saying that the two should never go together is just ignorant. Now I will freely admit that drinking and shooting isn't the most responsible thing to do, but I am not going to look down my nose at my redneck friends who like to take some PBR out to woods to bumpfire their EBRs.

Justin
July 6, 2005, 01:25 PM
Justin, since you are a moderator here, I'm surprised you can get away with such obvious prejudicial behaviour. Everyone know there isn't amything wrong with Miller Lite. Bet you drink some sissy foreign beer!! ;) :neener: Are you kidding? Where I live, you can't swing a broken beer bottle without hitting a microbrewery.

:D

Sissy foreign beer is for sissy foreigners. ;)

thatguy
July 6, 2005, 01:29 PM
No Brakes23, I'm ignorant if I think that drinking while shooting is a bad idea?

I really don't even know how to respond to such an asinine statement.

svtruth
July 6, 2005, 01:42 PM
Would BATF have wanted them to be smoking too?

grimjaw
July 6, 2005, 01:49 PM
My buddy is from AR. As I recall about 60% of Arkansas is dry

thatguy, there are many counties in AR that are dry. I grew up in one of the wet counties, and we could get alcohol at drive up liquor stores as early as age 14. It's not difficult for individuals to purchase alcohol and drive to the next county. All the college kids knew what county line liquor stores to frequent on the weekend. Arkansans are very mobile, for work, school, or social events; a county line is not an effective barrier. Liquor sales were/are discouraged, but it hasn't stopped them, either.

I'd say dry counties work as well as prohibition did. Responsible people don't need laws to prevent them from being irresponsible. AR law is Draconian, no argument there. It was always rumored that there are no sorority houses at ASU because under state law a group (how many?) of women living together unchaperoned is considered a brothel. Don't know if that's fact, though.

In my experience, even honest, law-abiding Arkansans dislike interference by federal/state/local authorities (i.e. cops) A generalization, but that was/is my experience. Law enforcement probably gets a bad rap there, but I'd still hesistate to call them. hillbilly may feel differently.

Years ago on the 4th of July, a buddy and I were in the remote hills of AR shooting fireworks. After about 30 minutes, 3 trucks and 7 men converged on the 2 of us with spotlights (and probably guns, but I didn't see them) to explain the dangers of open fires near drought-stricken fields. They had been communicating by CB. They weren't nice about it, but didn't threaten us with harm. They let us know we'd littered the road and had us clean it up, told us to leave. No police were involved, and they weren't needed to teach me a lesson. I still don't go back in those hills.

jmm - thankfully he wasn't a terminally stupid kid, just close a few times

hillbilly
July 6, 2005, 02:26 PM
Yes, Arkansas has lots of dry counties.

No, it doesn't do anything about folks drinking.

In fact, Arkansas is one of the few places left where one can still make a good living as a bootlegger.

In fact, my family had all sorts of legal troubles with a bootlegger once back in the 1970s, which I won't get into.

Basically, bootleggers go buy the six-pack for $4 in a wet county, and then sell it for $10 to folks who don't want to go all the way to the liquor store 50 miles away.

In fact, the county that holds the Hobbs shooting range was dry very recently, but because of the development brought by the presence Wal-Mart's corporate HQ, the wet-dry issue was supposed to be coming up on a ballot sometime.

So it may still be dry, or may have recently gone wet....I'm not sure.

Grimjaw also wrote this:


"In my experience, even honest, law-abiding Arkansans dislike interference
by federal/state/local authorities (i.e. cops) A generalization, but that
was/is my experience. Law enforcement probably gets a bad rap there,
but I'd still hesistate to call them. hillbilly may feel differently."


I'd say that's very true in most cases, for a whole set of reasons.

First, there is the simple logistical problem of being far, far away from cops most of the time.

I, myself, live six miles outside of a town of 70 people.....yes, that's not a typo....I live six miles outside the "city limits" of a town of only 70 folks. Even with the recent paving spasm done by a county judge trying to produce goodwill for his re-election, I'm still a mile down dirt roads.

Even when our house was burglarized back in 2000 and we called 911, it took the responding officer 35 minutes to arrive because that's how long it takes to get to my house from the county sheriff's office.

At that range, had I called immediately, it would have been 30 minutes at the least before any cop even thought about coming to take a look at some folks drinking beer on a range. That range is a good 30 minutes via a very twisty two-lane road from any sort of "town" or "city" where cops would likely be dispatched from.

Realistically, no police at all were coming to that range unless there was somebody bleeding from a gun shot wound. The local police simply wouldn't waste their time with a call about folks drinking beer on a public shooting range.

Secondly, as grimjaw's experience shows, there is still a very strong "Handle it yourself" ethic in play in lots and lots of Arkansas.

Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, I'm not going to get into. I feel both ways, depending on the specifics of the situation.

But in Arkansas, (the only state left, I think, where the rural population is still bigger than the "urban" population) there is still very much a 19th century, self-reliant, "handle it yourself" mentality that's very, very entrenched.

So, I didn't call the police in this case because A) I didn't figure it'd do any good and B) I'm usually not predisposed to call the police unless somebody is bleeding, or a serious crime has been committed or is about to be committed...........Basically, if there's a guy with a gun in my driveway, I'm calling 911 as I rack the slide on the Rem 870.

To be honest, I felt like that by protecting my wife, my friends, and myself, I had "handled it myself" and anyone else too stupid to recognize the situation and take appropriate action would merely reap the results of their own actions and decisions.

I can personally think of all sorts of such situations that I and my family members and my friends have handled ourselves that would have resulted in a SWAT team being called out in a place like Los Angeles or NYC.

But that's Arkansas.

hillbilly

hillbilly
July 6, 2005, 02:27 PM
Svtruth.....I don't know about the Mexicans at the range, but after having fired guns on July 2, I did have plenty of beer afterwards, and took a drag off somebody's pipe just to complete the whole "ATF" experience for the holiday weekend.

hillbilly

DarthBubba
July 6, 2005, 04:23 PM
What a dream,

It has long been my dream to live in a world where you can buy Booze, Cigarettes, Fire arms, and ammo at a drive through window and use them all up on your drive home.
(The preceding statement is sarcasm) I hope you will all know that.
Wow drinking and shooting offhand pistol what a dangerous combination.
It is things like that that made me make my own range with my father and brother.
If you go back to that range remember that if it is a public range then public intoxication rules apply if it bothers you call the local sheriff and make a complaint most of the time they will send an officer to look into the incident. Most of the time when the law shows up the people who are drinking will leave or try to talk their way out of a ticket which usually gets them in more trouble.
You pay taxes for law enforcement so use them.

DarthBubba :evil:

Derby FALs
July 6, 2005, 07:22 PM
Only wussies have to have both hands on a pistol. :D
Doesn't anyone even practice weak handed anymore?

How intoxicated were those Mexicans? What was their BAC? Weren't there any trees around so you could just string 'em up?
:eek:

M99M12
July 6, 2005, 07:45 PM
Kids...................... ;)

Parents? :mad:

Beer? Git me one. :evil:

No_Brakes23
July 6, 2005, 10:37 PM
No Brakes23, I'm ignorant if I think that drinking while shooting is a bad idea? I said "should never go together". There is a LOT of room between "bad idea" and "should NEVER go together."

I also never said anything about beer in one hand pistol in the other or drinking WHILE shooting.

Also, for Darth Bubba; I am curious as to why offhand shooting is more dangerous while under the influence, than Weaver or Isocoles under the influence.

I am also unclear about why the ethnicity of the shooters was important.

hillbilly
July 7, 2005, 12:24 AM
Since you asked, No-Brakes23.............



The ethnicity of the group drinking at the range is a detail of the story.

And this is not the first time I've left a public range in Arkansas because of Hispanics drinking beer and shooting pistols.

In about 1994 or 1995, I left the "range" west of Fayetteville near Lake Weddington because a group of Hispanics arrived at the "range" and began shooting pistols and drinking beer at the same time.

I write "range" because the "range" at Lake Weddington was nothing more than a semi-circle bulldozed in the woods with the dirt mounded up for a berm about 50 yards down range.

Another poster has pointed out some knowledge of Mexican silhouette shooters drinking beer and shooting.

I have personally pointed out two examples of white folks from rural Arkansas and Oklahoma drinking beer while shooting.

I think there are some correlations between the behavior of the Hispanics and the white "rednecks" if you will.

Both were from under-educated, blue-collar, and maybe even rural settings. Both were familiar with guns and alcohol and had no compunction about mixing the two.

I'd say the main difference between the two groups on this issue is that the white rednecks of Arkansas and Oklahoma know it's not proper to drink beer at a public range, but frequently choose to drink and shoot simultaneously while on their own private property.

I say the white rednecks apparently know not to drink on a public range, because I have never, ever, ever left a public range in my entire life because white rednecks were drinking beer at the range.

Now, I have left public ranges because of other dangerous behaviors exhibited by white rednecks, but never because of drinking specifically.

I've left a public range because white rednecks were popping off rifle rounds while another group of white rednecks were 25 yards downrange shooting pistols at targets about 15 feet to the right of the rifle targets that the first group was firing at.

And I have left private property where rednecks were drinking and shooting at the same time, and have never gone back to those places.

I'd say that these particular Hispanics, probably being relatively new to the Northwest Arkansas region, have not yet realized that drinking beer at a public range is not widely accepted behavior in Arkansas.

It's like the story that ran in the Morning News of Springdale, Arkansas about 11 years ago. Some of the first Hispanics who moved to Springdale were unaware that it wasn't the cultural norm to slaughter goats in the yard in a suburban neighborhood.

Now, I like BBQ of all sorts.

I have participated in hog killings and deer dressings and squirrel skinnings and cow butcherings and catfish filleting and bluegill cleaning, many, many times. I would gladly participate in a goat butchering if I got to help eat the end product and wash it down with beer.

But because I'm from Arkansas, I know what's okay out on grand-pappy's rural 40 acre farm ain't okay in a suburban neighborhood.

I wouldn't fillet catfish in the driveway of a suburban house, for example.

Filleting catfish in the garage with the door closed, out of sight of the neighbors, is something else, though.

The Hispanics slaughtering the goats in the backyard just didn't know.

Same with the beer drinking at the range. Their ethnicity is probably a large part of why they didn't know any better. They literally ain't from around here.

And my personal decision was to leave quickly and not attempt to communicate with folks who may or may not have spoken good English, who were drinking beer, and shooting guns.

I tend to try not to meddle too much with folks who are simultaneously drinking beer and shooting guns.

They make me rather nervous.

hillbilly

Derby FALs
July 7, 2005, 12:38 AM
It's like the story that ran in the Morning News of Springdale, Arkansas about 11 years ago. Some of the first Hispanics who moved to Springdale were unaware that it wasn't the cultural norm to slaughter goats in the yard in a suburban neighborhood.

Now, I like BBQ of all sorts.

I have participated in hog killings and deer dressings and squirrel skinnings and cow butcherings and catfish filleting and bluegill cleaning, many, many times. I would gladly participate in a goat butchering if I got to help eat the end product and wash it down with beer.

But because I'm from Arkansas, I know what's okay out on grand-pappy's rural 40 acre farm ain't okay in a suburban neighborhood.

I wouldn't fillet catfish in the driveway of a suburban house, for example.

Filleting catfish in the garage with the door closed, out of sight of the neighbors, is something else, though.

The Hispanics slaughtering the goats in the backyard just didn't know.


You don't do it because it is illegal in Arkansas?

No_Brakes23
July 7, 2005, 03:29 AM
Thanks for clearing that up hillbilly.

drinking beer at a public range is not widely accepted behavior in Arkansas. I have a friend from Rogers who led me to believe that it was, but you know when folks are away from home, (Like in a floating dumpster in the middle of the Pacific,) stories get embellished.

The story about the goats gives me a chuckle, there have been similar problems in SoCal with Asians and chickens.

454c
July 7, 2005, 04:40 AM
"You don't do it because it is illegal in Arkansas"


It's not illegal but the city folks kinda freak out.

Stand_Watie
July 7, 2005, 05:34 AM
It's my understanding that, at least among Mexican silhouette shooters, drinking a beer while shooting is practically required. So it could very well be a cultural thing.

When I lived in Pleasant Grove (urban Dallas area) we had a group of Mexican immigrants across the street who would do that in their backyard every saturday and sunday nights, except they shot up into the air, not at targets.

happy old sailor
July 7, 2005, 05:22 PM
hillbilly, i have shot at the range near Waldron. out towards lake Hinkle isn't it? beautiful and well kept. real mowed grass. i fished Hinkle a number of times and about the last time i was there i noticed "they" had dropped several dump loads of dirt to close the road. too bad as i enjoyed the place.

we, in Mena, have a public Forest Service range near here. i was there when it first opened. it was all fresh dirt, but nice, even had target holders provided. last time i was out there, the holders were all shot to hell and shot up beer cans and beer bottles littered the place, like they had brought a few dump loads of them in to dispose of. while i am surveying the damage, a couple truck loads of caucasions show up with beer and guns. i sort of slipped away under cover of the loud bragadocio.

seems to me the whole of the united states is filling up with trashy and disrespectful people. i now have my own little range to 80 yards, all i could fit in. and, so far, there is no law against shooting there. is a pitiful situation all around.

DarthBubba
July 8, 2005, 02:22 PM
Also, for Darth Bubba; I am curious as to why offhand shooting is more dangerous while under the influence, than Weaver or Isocoles under the influence.

No_Brakes23,

You are right I should have rightly pointed out that shooting any weapon in anyway while under the influence is really dangerous.
Sorry for my faupax. I am a nondrinker and have seen some of the results of guns and beer in the form of a very nasty hunting accident that made a big impact on me when I was younger. A good friend of mine was shot in the back of the head with a .270 it blew the top of his skull off and some how he managed to survive. Needless to say that made a big impact on my views on consumption of alcohol and fire arms in close proxmity.

DarthBubba :(

AnthonyRSS
July 8, 2005, 10:16 PM
I was just wondering, why does everyone say its wrong and dangerous to have a beer while you're shooting? I am not a heavy drinker and can have a few beers before I feel a thing. It stands to reason that I could have a few beers while I am shooting and not be bothered by it. And even if I have a buzz I am not going to be unsafe with a gun.

Its kinda like the BAC of DUI. A few beers will put you over the limit, but you can still drive fine.

Not saying that these guys were in the right for drinking+shooting. I don't even like shooting with people I don't know, drinking or not.

I don't like beer while shooting anyway. Sun Drop for hot days, Coors in the evening with my wings and/or pizza.

19112XS
July 8, 2005, 11:42 PM
Coordination and judgment are adversely affected to a significant degree by the time the effects of alcohol are noticed.

Derby FALs
July 8, 2005, 11:54 PM
Coordination and judgment are adversely affected to a significant degree by the time the effects of alcohol are noticed.

Quite so. This is why my pool game improved after 4 beers but went south after 18. Now that I don't drink my pool game sucks. :(

GRB
July 9, 2005, 12:11 AM
I was just wondering, why does everyone say its wrong and dangerous to have a beer while you're shooting? Well let's put it this way, one of the reasons you should not drink alcohol or use other pleasure inducing drugs while shooting is because they alter your state of consciouness. In doing so you often do not even realize such is happening. It can start with one beer whether you think so or not. A lot depends upon your condition at the time you start drinking. Therefor, after just one beer, your judgement can become somewhat impaired without realizing such is the case. The same can also happen to your physical abilities. So while you think that you are functioning like a well oiled machine you are actually functioning like a slightly oiled human. Everything seems fine even when it is not. You believe you are more sharp than ever, that you are more agile than ever, and that confidence may even lead to some really great shots - with firearms or on the pool table. It may also lead to a scratch in pool or maybe even to me putting my stick through the felt; at a firearms range it may lead to a miss we all can laugh about, or it may also lead to someone being killed. That is why you should not mix gunpowder with alcohol or with certain types of drugs such pleasure enhancing mind altering drugs, depressants, speed and so forth. It is a very old firearms safety rule that is all to often overlooked.

I guess it boils down to why take a chance with something as stupid as drinking while shooting when a mistake caused due to alcohol impairment might kill? Enjoy the shooting, then enjoy the beers; just much safer in the long run.

chopinbloc
July 9, 2005, 06:45 AM
yeah, well, i've always felt it was safer to drink AFTER shooting, but for quite a while, this presented me with a quandry. how do i shoot the beer cans? i'm pretty forgetful so saving them beforehand was out. then i realized that if i drink really fast and shoot all my ammo up real fast, i'm done shooting before i'm drunk.

GregGry
July 9, 2005, 07:10 AM
this presented me with a quandry. how do i shoot the beer cans? Well if its miller, feel free to shoot the cans that are filled. The grass and anminals could use some of it :D

No_Brakes23
July 9, 2005, 03:41 PM
why does everyone say its wrong and dangerous to have a beer while you're shooting? Because the minute a beer touches your lips, you lose all control or reason a la Reefer Madness.

In fact, you should be careful you don't drink caffeine or use tobacco products before or during shooting.

Better not even take some aspirin or ibuprofen.

armorplate
July 9, 2005, 04:35 PM
I used to shoot Pistol bullseye competition at the local range, and been to Camp Perry a few times. I also had a range in my basement where I could shoot during inclement weather, or work up loads when there was a need to do so. That being said, I once became curious about all the fuss about a few beers, and firing a weapon. One evening, I decided to experiment,and found some beer and my .45acp. I drank one and fired 10. Well, after 3 and two more strings of 10, I realized why It is outlawed. My ability went from Expert to High Master. I never drank while shooting again. Truthfully, it was too scary, or maybe just cheating. We need to better ourselves without the use of drugs.
That's my 2 cents worth.

ajkurp
July 9, 2005, 05:14 PM
Public ranges are a poor place to drink.

A couple three beers in the Idaho Owyhee Mountains is practically required when shooting.

I don't post here often, and I'm not playing the troll bait game. The sanctimonious posters that write, "there otta be a law", are part of THE PROBLEM with freedom in America.

I say, "Drink. Shoot. Enjoy. But if you harm someone, be assured you will take the consequences." A few adult beverages over the afternoon have never harmed anyone in my company. Reefer madness, indeed.

That is my take on shooting and drinking in the great outdoors with a party of one's own choosing.

GRB
July 9, 2005, 07:23 PM
Because the minute a beer touches your lips, you lose all control or reason a la Reefer Madness.

In fact, you should be careful you don't drink caffeine or use tobacco products before or during shooting.

Better not even take some aspirin or ibuprofen.
To compare nicotine/caffeine/aspirin or ibuprofen to alcohol is rather silly, in my opinion. Alcohol is an intoxicant plain and simple, and gun powder and alcohoil don't mix. If you don't like that fact then go ahead and drink and shoot all you want, it is your choice as a responsible adult (responsible for your own actions). Expect heavy consequences if you ever harm smeone not just for yourself but for the whole shooting community. All we need are more people acting irresponsibly with firearms to make us all look worse.

As for me I don't think there needs to be a law; I just think it should be like this: if you harm someone's loved one while you are intoxicated you will pay the consequences no matter how deep down you try to hide your head and those consequences will be severe and nasty and final. But of course, those who may choose to call others sanctimonious because they think alcohol and firearms do not mix, and those same people who choose to show themselves a freedom lovers will probably change their tunes once they f up and shoot someone while intoxicated. The now I am not sanctimonious, until it suits me type of people here would likely be the first to run to hire a lawyer to fight for their so called rights after having just shot someone out of sheer irresponsibility. They would also probably be the first to run to the police to say hey this guy is trying to hurt me cause I accidentally killed his loved one. They would be screaming 'there is a law you cannot hunt me down for revenge'.

What is the big prolem with acting responsibly and waiting until done shooting to drink or smoke your dope. This is not rtefer madness at all, if you thin it is then you do not even know the meaning of the term. Just take a look at highway accidents dues to intoxication, they speak volumes about how many people believed they were not too intoxicated to drive then killed or injured someone. But of course - maybe you know better than all of them. I don't so I choose to be responsible and I also choose to believe that means no booze or drugs while shooting.

Best regards,
Glenn B

AnthonyRSS
July 9, 2005, 08:42 PM
With all due respect, Mr. Bartley, I think you are confusing having a few beverages with getting wasted. Having a few does not make me irresponsible. I don't know about smoking dope though. That's illegal so I don't do it. Not worth the consequences.

Have a good day.

thorn726
July 9, 2005, 08:49 PM
very interesting thread guys- answers a ton of questions for me.

as someone who is opposed to alcohol, it seems to me like some people cna handle having a few, even a slight buzz, and shooting. and others cant.

but seesm like MOst of y'all are aware of your own limits.

personally i dont see drinking at a public rtange a very safe thing= yer making people nervous, just too many variables.

BUT i had often wondered if people who like to drink would maybe have a few while target shooting out in the woods.
i mean this is way different from CCW in a bar. i could totally see it with few problems, but then again there is the potential for massive disaster.

glad i dont drink enough to worry about this

thorn726
July 9, 2005, 08:53 PM
i would add that with weed it is a different set of problems-

no one is about to get "crazy" and shoot all wild = but people could forget things, leave stuff behind. aim would certainly degrade some.
i think the big danger there is accidental discharge- unlikely but Worst case i could see some stoner trying to put away a loaded gun, or leave a loaded gun in a bad spot and knock it over. maybe maybe.
but really- the effect on motor skills is so limited. consequnces of actions are still very real and present while on herb, regardless of what TV tells you. not true with alcohol.

at any rate, it makes more sense to be sober shooting.

good thing about us herbers, it is really something you do AFter exertion, not before....... heheh

Kamicosmos
July 9, 2005, 11:10 PM
I managed to snag a weekend night shift at my job.

Primary reasoning? So I could have weekdays off to go to the range!

I am also very lucky to have met a local THR/TFL member who has his own range, and lets me come out and use it.

It's much more enjoyable when you're at the range by yourself and/or with a group of friends and don't have to worry about anybody else mucking it up.

Arkie_Shooter
July 10, 2005, 02:41 AM
Heh, I was there on July 3rd. I left right after the mexicans showed up. If you don't mind me asking, what is the name of the private club you are a member of that has a 300yard range?

No_Brakes23
July 11, 2005, 03:27 PM
I feel the need to clarify my stance on alcohol and firearms.

I don't see any inherent evil in discharging a weapon after consuming an alcoholic beverage.

There is a big difference between having a couple beers and getting so wasted that it drastically effects your judgement. I think folks get too wrapped around the axle on this subject.

That being said, I don't do it. That's right, while I don't see anything inherently wrong with it, I don't do it. If I was visiting my buddy in Benton County and we saw a large group of folks drinking, I would give serious thought to finding some other place to shoot, (That CAN'T be difficult in NW Arkansas.) On the other hand, if I went to a friendly meeting with friends I knew and trusted, I wouldn't bat an eye at a cooler full of beer. But I don't make a habit of drinking and shooting.

I even try not to drink caffiene on range days until after shooting. Caffiene has just as much, if not more of an effect on me than low levels of alcohol. The very least it does is spoil my offhand groups, at worst, it makes me scatter-brained and complacent.

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