Can a Ex-Felon Own Black Powder Guns?


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Zeke Menuar
July 6, 2005, 11:28 PM
A co-worker asked me this question and I didn't have the answer.

The co-worker in question was convicted of a non-violent Class A felony in Oregon. He is off supervision.

Can he possess old timey guns like flintlocks and other black powder firearms?

What about the newfangled in-line muzzleloaders?

Can a felon's gun rights ever be restored?

Thanks
ZM

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2nd Amendment
July 6, 2005, 11:42 PM
I believe it depends on the state, but in most it's still allowed. Years ago I knew an old timer who had been convicted of something(I forget right now) who carried an old BP revolver everywhere he went. Perfectly legal then and I don't know of any changes since.

Getting rights "restored"? Ha!

Standing Wolf
July 6, 2005, 11:53 PM
Getting rights "restored"? Ha!

A great many states restore felons' voting rights; to the best of my knowledge, however, no states restore felons' Second Amendment civil rights.

Sharps Shooter
July 7, 2005, 12:09 AM
I think it's legal for an ex-felon to have a black powder rifle. In Idaho at least. My buddy's son-in-law is an ex-felon (dope) and he hunts with one of those in-line muzzle loaders. It seems like it's called a "Knight," but I'm not sure. He has told me he can't legally carry a regular cartridge rifle.

Khaotic
July 7, 2005, 09:59 AM
As far as I am aware... (could be wrong, feel free to correct) most states don't care very much about BP ownership, far as that goes.

Michigan is apparently one of the exceptions, they do have some related controls.

It'd be helpful if someone more knowledgeable chimed in here.
(hint, hint :o )

-K

captain obvious
July 7, 2005, 10:10 AM
In WV you can mail order a BP weapon as if it was a book - same goes for most states, I believe, with Michigan standing out in my mind as one exception.

armoredman
July 7, 2005, 10:12 AM
Emphatically no. Check local and state laws for what a firearm is described as. In AZ, felons in possession of a BP firearm will be treated the same as a cartridge firearm, all the time.
The funny/sad thing is, the only felons carrying BP would be the ones who are trying to be law abiding....

WT
July 7, 2005, 10:24 AM
He is NOT an ex-felon. He IS a felon.

In my state he can't touch a gun.

GunGoBoom
July 7, 2005, 10:29 AM
Guys, I got this straight from the horse's mouth - a guy that did some federal time, and is a big hunter. Check with a *local* criminal defense lawyer to be sure, but apparently here's the deal in OK:

-Inline muzzleloaders using 209 primers ===> NO
-Traditional muzzeloaders using caps/nipples with external hammer, & black powder ===> YES, that is ok.

Gung-Ho
July 7, 2005, 11:14 AM
He is NOT an ex-felon. He IS a felon.

Yeah. He probably parked to far from the curb. :rolleyes:

wdlsguy
July 7, 2005, 01:02 PM
Texas Penal Code § 46.04. UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF FIREARM.
(a) A person who has been convicted of a felony commits an offense if he possesses a firearm:
(1) after conviction and before the fifth anniversary of the person's release from confinement following conviction of the felony or the person's release from supervision under community supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision, whichever date is later; or
(2) after the period described by Subdivision (1), at any location other than the premises at which the person lives.
...
(e) An offense under Subsection (a) is a felony of the third degree. An offense under Subsection (b) or (c) is a Class A misdemeanor.


Texas Penal Code § 46.01. DEFINITIONS.
In this chapter:
...
(3) "Firearm" means any device designed, made, or adapted to expel a projectile through a barrel by using the energy generated by an explosion or burning substance or any device readily convertible to that use. Firearm does not include a firearm that may have, as an integral part, a folding knife blade or other characteristics of weapons made illegal by this chapter and that is:
(A) an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899; or
(B) a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899, but only if the replica does not use rim fire or center fire ammunition.
...

TarpleyG
July 7, 2005, 02:53 PM
ERROR 1776: file corrupt: config.america – reboot constitution? (Y/N)
:D :D :D

Gung-Ho
July 7, 2005, 05:57 PM
Did you check out the hot links on Y/N??? :D

SHOOT1SAM
July 7, 2005, 07:29 PM
First of all, I may be completely wrong here, so I just want to state that for the record.

It is my understanding that any muzzle loading revolver, rifle, shotgun, etc., is NOT classified as a "Firearm" as we are referring to here, by the BATFE. Some states, however, might classify them as such.

Sam

Harve Curry
July 7, 2005, 07:44 PM
What ever happened to "served his/her debt to society" , or "paid his debt to society" ??

With all the laws accumulating on the books anyone of us could someday count ourselves among the felons, ex-cons, whatever.

Frank James, John Wesley Hardin, got their guns back. Not that they were the best examples to get them back. As I understand it James did live out a honest productive life in L.A. California. John Selman fixed the mistake made in Hardin's case.

I did know a gunshop in Arizona that specialized in muzzleloader stuff and antiques because the owner couldn't have modern fixed ammunition firearms.

Barbara
July 7, 2005, 09:14 PM
Michigan does give felons back their right to a firearm although it affects their eligibility to carry concealed.

There's some legislation brewing right now that might concievably put an end to that, though..allegedly because of problems its causing with reciprocity with Texas, but I'm not so sure.

R.H. Lee
July 7, 2005, 09:19 PM
I dunno. What's an 'ex-felon'? Did he undo the damage he caused? Did he make whoever he hurt whole again? If not, he doesn't even deserve to be sucking oxygen IMO.

Gung-Ho
July 7, 2005, 10:10 PM
If its a debt that cannot be repaid, then his life should be forfeit. However, if he has repaid his debt to society and has been set free, he should have ALL his rights.

MillCreek
July 8, 2005, 12:40 AM
A great many states restore felons' voting rights; to the best of my knowledge, however, no states restore felons' Second Amendment civil rights.

I have read in the Seattle papers about felons petitioning to have their gun ownership restored. Although I don't know the exact procedure, one argues the case in front of a county Superior Court judge and again based on what I read in the papers, several people have had their rights successfully restored. I don't know if they regain their carry permit back.

If I recall correctly, the majority of the people who are successful in having their rights restored are generally now pillars of the community, the felony was committed a while ago, and it was generally for non-violent crimes. In the local legal newsletters, I have read ads from attorneys that specialize in this area of the law.

Often the court petition is part of a package that also includes restoration of voting rights. This sticks out in my mind because of our recent conniptions over the governorship election and the court actions thereto. There were a lot of articles in the local media about felons voting, in most cases not knowing that they were not legally permitted to vote absent a court-ordered restoration of rights. So there was a lot of discussion about the civic rights of felons and the restorationt thereto, and there was some discussion about restoration of firearms ownership as well.

thorn726
July 8, 2005, 03:19 AM
I dunno. What's an 'ex-felon'? Did he undo the damage he caused? Did he make whoever he hurt whole again? If not, he doesn't even deserve to be sucking oxygen IMO.


Wow. it says up there it was for dope. i mean ok if he was a dealer, perhaps there was great damage to the world, maybe even as a possesor, by buying possibly foreign produced drugs , he helped fund terrorism (like all of us do at the gas pump).

But he doesn't even deserve to be sucking oxygen IMO

without knowing anything more than he commited a felony???

i suppose you have never EVER ever done anything that could possibly be construed as a felony? you never drove home a tiny bit drunk, never owned anything illegal whatsoever, nothing ever, in your whole life.

still- if we give death for felonies, wouldnt life in prison follow for misdemeanors? so - you have never commited a single misdemeanor ever???

or an infraction??/? ever littered?// broken the speed limit???

you belong in jail, you just got lucky so far

i suppose LE could say "oh laws dont apply to me" ok that's sounds very American.

i cna understand many types of violent criminals, not wanting to release them , heck at this point the thieves are making me scream bloody murder i have been robbed so often.

but this sentiment scares me
What's an 'ex-felon'? Did he undo the damage he caused? Did he make whoever he hurt whole again? If not, he doesn't even deserve to be sucking oxygen IMO.

Zeke Menuar
July 8, 2005, 06:01 AM
Back on topic please.

If you'all would refer to my original question. I never said what he did. He was concivited of a Class A felony in Oregon. Sounds like some folks are making things up as they go along.

If some of you wish to debate the moral/ethical side of a felon getting his gun rights restored, start your own thread and debate away. Leave my thread alone. I am looking for legal answers to a couple of specific questions.

I told him to join the NRA and have them refer him to a laywer.

ZM

Risasi
July 8, 2005, 07:52 AM
But here you go. Don't know about State laws of course.

http://www.loompanics.com/Articles/LegalFirearms.htm

As for the rest of you guys. Personally if I am already labelled a criminal then I guess I am already a law breaker. What makes you think as a convicted felon, I am going to start keeping the law?

But as Zeke said start your own thread...

Bemidjiblade
July 8, 2005, 08:06 AM
Well, sorry to still be sucking oxygen, what after turning myself in for a felony that no one even knew was committed. :fire:
I like Chuck Swindoll's quote "Why is it that the more conservative someone is, the less compassionate they become?" Every time I start to hope that's not the case, I run across something like that.

Back on topic:

There's the 411 from a felon ( :o ) in Minnesota: As of felons released from custody before August 10th 2003 (I missed this cut off by 2 days, grrr), 10 years after their last date of incarceration, they can legally regain their 2nd ammendment rights. After that date, this is no longer allowed. That means that while I get every other right back on February 3rd 2018, I don't get 2nd ammendment back w/o a judge's specific order.

Phantom Warrior and Slide Lock have probably already drafted the first round of that petition, but they're going to have to wait a while. ;)

As for black powder: In MN it used to be the case that felons could use muzzle-loaders, but that loophole was closed about 5 years ago, according to my PO. Since she's the woman w/ the discression to throw my butt in jail if I irritate her, I'm going w/ her word.

R.H. Lee
July 8, 2005, 09:11 AM
Sorry. I didn't realize it was just a BS drug possession charge. We attempted to decrminalize that here awhile back.

All he has to do is go into a store that sells BP and ask what the procedure is to buy one. If he has to fill out the yellow form (4473?), then he's screwed.

dave3006
July 8, 2005, 09:18 AM
A person can be a "felon" for a variety of minor things. All felons are not baby killers. Make the punishments harsh for all real crimes and then let the person be free when they are out.

Glocker
July 8, 2005, 09:25 AM
Some of you guys make me sick :barf: most of you guys are felons that did not get caught at what you are doing your selves, you preach a high and mighty sermon but take a look at your self in the mirror. and to answer some of the questions "YES" you can get your rights back and your rights to carry a side arm, i'm proof of that and if you don't like it.... come to my door and try to take them away and see what happens :fire:

armoredman
July 8, 2005, 10:30 AM
Ok, Oregon I am not sure, but to remove doubt, here is AZ law - the gunshop guy someone refferred to could be in trouble...these are from AZ revised statutes.
13-3101. Definitions
4. "Firearm" means any loaded or unloaded handgun, pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun or other weapon that will expel, is designed to expel or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive. Firearm does not include a firearm in permanently inoperable condition.
No exception listed.
6. "Prohibited possessor" means any person:....
(b) Who has been convicted within or without this state of a felony or who has been adjudicated delinquent and whose civil right to possess or carry a gun or firearm has not been restored.
(e) Who is a prohibited possessor under 18 United States Code 922(g)(5), except as provided by 18 United States Code 922(y).
As for this one...
Some of you guys make me sick most of you guys are felons that did not get caught at what you are doing your selves, you preach a high and mighty sermon but take a look at your self in the mirror.
No, I am not. Period. Sorry you are. I know felons both released and still incarcerated who I wouldn't mind having over for dinner. I know many many more I would prefer to spontaneously stop breathing, preferrably right now.
"YES" you can get your rights back and your rights to carry a side arm, i'm proof of that and if you don't like it.... come to my door and try to take them away and see what happens
I have been told that it is theoretically possible to regain 2A rights, but since Congress defunded ATF for that activity, it has become virtually impossible. If you did so legally, good for you. We all know that criminals don't care about gun laws anyway....
Who said anything about coming to your door for anything?


Just to be completely fair, I just located this gem in AZ law....
13-912.01. Restoration of civil rights; persons adjudicated delinquent

A. A person who was adjudicated delinquent and whose period of probation has been completed may have his right to possess or carry a gun or firearm restored by the judge who discharges the person at the end of his term of probation.

B. A person who was adjudicated delinquent and who has been discharged from probation, on proper application, may have his right to carry or possess a gun or firearm restored by the judge of the juvenile court in the county where the person was adjudicated delinquent or his successors. The clerk of the superior court shall process the application on the request of the person involved or the person's attorney. The applicant shall serve a copy of the application on the county attorney.

C. If the person's adjudication was for a dangerous offense under section 13-604, a serious offense as defined in section 13-604, burglary in the first degree, burglary in the second degree or arson, the person may not file for the restoration of his right to possess or carry a gun or firearm until the person attains thirty years of age. If the person's adjudication was for any other felony offense, the person may not file for the restoration of his right to possess or carry a gun or firearm for two years from the date of his discharge.

13-910. Applications by persons discharged from federal prison

A. Upon proper application, a person who has been convicted of two or more felonies and who has received an absolute discharge from imprisonment in a federal prison may have any civil rights which were lost or suspended by his conviction restored by the presiding judge of the superior court in the county in which he now resides.

B. A person who is subject to the provisions of subsection A of this section may file, no sooner than two years from the date of his absolute discharge, an application for restoration of civil rights that shall be accompanied by a certificate of absolute discharge from the director of the federal bureau of prisons, unless it is shown to be impossible to obtain such certificate. Such application shall be filed with the clerk of the superior court in the county in which the person now resides, and such clerk shall be responsible for processing applications for restoration of civil rights upon request of the person involved or his attorney.

C. If the person was convicted of an offense which would be a dangerous offense under section 13-604, the person may not file for the restoration of his right to possess or carry a gun or firearm. If the person was convicted of an offense which would be a serious offense as defined in section 13-604 the person may not file for the restoration of his right to possess or carry a gun or firearm for ten years from the date of his absolute discharge from imprisonment. If the person was convicted of any other felony offense, the person may not file for the restoration of his right to possess or carry a gun or firearm for two years from the date of his absolute discharge from imprisonment.

For more info, see here - http://www.azleg.state.az.us/
[/quote]

Glocker
July 8, 2005, 11:05 AM
OH YES YOU ARE :neener:

2nd Amendment
July 8, 2005, 11:46 AM
Everyone on this board is a felon, especially the guy who says he's not. The government likes it that way. That's why they created such a situation for us all to live in. It's just a matter of whether they have caught and convicted you on something yet(or whether they've actually made up the "offense" at this point).

2A - Proud unconvicted felon.

NukemJim
July 8, 2005, 10:25 PM
Everyone on this board is a felon,
The government likes it that way. That's why they created such a situation for us all to live in. It's just a matter of whether they have caught and convicted you on something yet(or whether they've actually made up the "offense" at this point).

I agree with both of the above if you define felon as someone who has commited an act that could be charged as a felony. Any one who thinks different should spend a few days reading law books. Heck when I was a teenager in Indiana (Hmm... Arts grandma is still around ) "self pleasuring" was a felony ! It was listed with a number of other "variations" shall we say. But the point is that made "felons" out of 99% of the population. There were many other such silly laws but they were ( this is a long time ago ) on the books. I am certain that there still are different ones now.

Instead of enforcing the laws the .govs just want to make the punishment worse so the laws will deter without spending the money on enforcement/punisment/rehab. End result is that more people cannot own/use guns now. I cannot tell you how much that upsets the .gov NOT :cuss: :banghead: :fire:

From my understanding ( IANAL ) the Lautenberg ammendment ( Domestic Violence) can be invoked over a verbal argument with no threats of violence in some states. Lifetime bann on firarms ownership seems like a excessive punsihment for a non-threating verbal disagrement.

Claire Wolf is right " America is at that awkward stage"

NukemJim

thorn726
July 9, 2005, 06:05 AM
I agree with both of the above if you define felon as someone who has commited an act that could be charged as a felony. Any one who thinks different should spend a few days reading law books.

boy think about not only that- but what about state differences=
like how many of you are fine where you are but raging lunatic assault felons in CA.

Sorry. I didn't realize it was just a BS drug possession charge. We attempted to decrminalize that here awhile back

nice to see people actually take the high road, thanks!!

sorry i got so stirred up by your comment Riley

45crittergitter
July 10, 2005, 11:34 AM
Some clarifications:

Most felons are NOT "ex-felons." One would have to have his/her conviction overturned or something.

I don't think technically one is a felon unless he/she has been convicted. Committing a felony and getting away with it does not make one a felon.

Chuck Dye
July 10, 2005, 11:52 AM
The Oregon Revised Statutes (http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/166.html) section 166.210 (2) defines a firearm: (2) “Firearm” means a weapon, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of powder and which is readily capable of use as a weapon.

Section 166.270 makes possession of a firearm by a felon a crime: 166.270 Possession of weapons by certain felons. (1) Any person who has been convicted of a felony under the law of this state or any other state, or who has been convicted of a felony under the laws of the Government of the United States, who owns or has in the person’s possession or under the person’s custody or control any firearm commits the crime of felon in possession of a firearm.

166.270 does offer relief: 4) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to any person who has been:

(a) Convicted of only one felony under the law of this state or any other state, or who has been convicted of only one felony under the laws of the United States, which felony did not involve criminal homicide, as defined in ORS 163.005, or the possession or use of a firearm or a weapon having a blade that projects or swings into position by force of a spring or by centrifugal force, and who has been discharged from imprisonment, parole or probation for said offense for a period of 15 years prior to the date of alleged violation of subsection (1) of this section; or

(b) Granted relief from the disability under 18 U.S.C. 925(c) or has had the person’s record expunged under the laws of this state or equivalent laws of another jurisdiction.

(5) Felon in possession of a firearm is a Class C felony. Felon in possession of a restricted weapon is a Class A misdemeanor. [Amended by 1975 c.702 §1; 1985 c.543 §4; 1985 c.709 §2; 1987 c.853 §1; 1989 c.839 §4; 1993 c.735 §2; 1995 c.518 §1; 1999 c.1040 §16; 2003 c.14 §64]

rudolf
July 10, 2005, 04:30 PM
Folks, I don't understand the problem.

There is somebody who comitted a crime, and paid for it. Now he's obviosly become wiser and wants to stay legal. Why not help him stay legal?

The folks you're referring to wouldn't care, they'd just own illegally. This guy obviously now cares for the law! What's wrong with that?

Glocker
July 11, 2005, 03:05 PM
rudolf.................... you are right, good reply, and thank you !

scout26
July 11, 2005, 04:30 PM
Not in Illinois. They are considered firearms.

racenutz
July 11, 2005, 09:12 PM
Not in Iowa http://www.state.ia.us/government/dps/asd/wp/

Black Powder Firearms

Black powder firearms (rifles, shotguns and handguns) are defined as dangerous weapons in the Code of Iowa, section 702.7. Therefore, they are considered the same as modern weapons for the purpose of permits to carry. Under federal law and state law, black powder firearms are classified as antiques. Neither permits to acquire nor federal instant checks are required.

Black powder firearms cannot be in the possession of convicted felons.

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