Exotic shotgun ammo?


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eurohacker
July 7, 2005, 09:15 AM
Is it of any use?

FireQuest (http://www.firequest.com/) sure has a bunch of weird stuff...

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RTFM
July 7, 2005, 09:30 AM
Oh Cr@p! Is some of this stuff legal?

12GA Flash Thunder Grenade Ammo
This highly effective 12 gauge round produces a stun/diversion effect by using a bright blinding flash with an extremely powerful concussion blast from a 12 gauge shotgun muzzle. This device is not restricted by the BATF and is used by some of the most elite special forces and SWAT units around the world. It produces 182dB bang, 1.5 to 2 million candlea flash and over pressure on 1.5 to 2 atmospheric pressure units. It is truely an awesome experience indoors and out.

12 GA. "Macho Gaucho"
The device made famous by the Argentine Cowboy is called the "bolo". This device consisted of two heavy balls connected by a string and was thrown at and wrapped around an animals legs causing it to trip.

12 GA. "Armor Piercing"
This awesome round houses enough power to penetrate the thickest car doors, commercial steel doors and most objects up to 1/4" steel plate. This slug has a steel penetrator button, boosted by a very hot charge, has an unbelievable velocity to slice through metal like a hot knife slices through butter.

12 GA. “Flame Thower”
The 12 Ga. "Flame Thrower" round as pictured produces an enormous wall of fire for 250+ feet. The incendiary metal compound contained inside burns when fired at over 4000 degrees fahrenheit, showering your target in a momentary wall of flame

12 GA. “Flechette Shot Shells”
A Flechette is a small dart shaped projectile, that is clustered in an explosive warhead, dropped in a missile from an airplane or fired from a hand held weapon. One unique application of this 1 1/2" Flechette was to load these in a 12 GA. shotgun for taking out snipers hiding in thick brush or trees. Due to the penetration of these projectiles, tree limbs and brush would not disperse the darts. Even if some were dispersed, this would still have an all-covering pattern within a tree or brush. Generally 20 of these darts are placed in each 12 GA. shell.

GregGry
July 7, 2005, 09:56 AM
It produces 182dB bang :what: 135 dbs is enough to blow your ear drums up....

shermacman
July 7, 2005, 09:56 AM
Uh, dude, put down the espresso.
Suppose you had the occasion to shoot and kill another human being.
1) How would your defense be affected by the use of "Macho Gaucho" ammo? Remember, you will be explaining yourself to police, judges, lawyers and maybe even a jury.

Start with your opening statement: Your honor, the bad guy didn't stop when I yelled, so I fired a Terminator-X whose 'rapid expansion forces dozens of tiny pellets to spread through your objective like a cancerous disease, opening an area at the impact point equal to a softball!' (Quoted from the catalog)

eurohacker
July 7, 2005, 10:31 AM
I see this more as fun stuff, like machine guns and such.

Kingcreek
July 7, 2005, 12:30 PM
I see it as alot of marketing hype.
spend your money and be prepared to be underwhelmed.

foghornl
July 7, 2005, 01:10 PM
I can see a SMALL need for some of these special purpose rounds, but as for me, I'll stick with just plain lead buck/slugs.

Although I do remember a thread here from a while back about a couple of BG's breaking in on someone, only to be greeted with a "Dragons' Breath" round...

IIIRC, Preacherman started that thread. (I never have good luck with posting the search results...but the thread is here)

ahhh

here is the thread from "The Parson"...

http://www.thehighroad.org/search.php?searchid=540111

eurohacker
July 7, 2005, 01:10 PM
The armor piercing slugs look nice.

Box of truth should do some tests IMHO.

Third_Rail
July 7, 2005, 01:16 PM
Guys - ammo type has never been used in court in a legit self-defense case. If it was a good shoot, it doesn't matter WHAT you used. If it wasn't a good shoot, again, it doesn't matter what you used.

LaEscopeta
July 7, 2005, 01:45 PM
If you live someplace where fireworks are illegal but you can shoot firearms on your own property, then some of this stuff can be fun. (Also way more expensive then fireworks.) But almost none of it is useful for anything else.

Possible Exceptions:
- “Bird Bombs” can be useful for scaring away winged or four legged pests. (You are facing severe legal trouble if you fire a “Bird Bomb” or a blank at a two legged pest.)
- Bean bag rounds can be useful for police work. Might also be worthwhile against a neighbor’s dog on your property that doesn’t run from load noises, but be aware there is a chance bean bags will kill. (Again, serious legal risk if a civilian uses them against a person.)
- Flare rounds useful for signaling. (Also useful for starting fires if they hit something while still burning.)

A couple of warnings:
- As stated above, an 182dB bang will damage, if not destroy, your hearing, if it happens at the end of the barrel, 18 to 32 inches from your ears.
- If it really is a “grenade”, that is it fires a charge that explodes some distance from the barrel, there is a legal restriction on how large that charge can be, for civilian possession. I don’t remember the amount, but it is not much, and certainly not big enough for the claimed “182dB bang, 1.5 to 2 million candlea flash and over pressure on 1.5 to 2 atmospheric pressure units.”
- The “Flame Thower”, “Dragon’s Breath”, etc, rounds all use magnesium metal shavings (or some other flammable metal.) They will ignite just about anything they touch while still burning. If a burning piece gets left in your chamber or barrel somehow, I think it is likely to damage your gun, but I’ve never heard of this actually happening. Also, they are only impressive when fired at night.

(Off topic, note all the spelling, mis-wording and grammar errors on the Firequest web site. And this is a company that lives by marketing hype.)

The Rabbi
July 7, 2005, 01:49 PM
I'll echo 3rd Rail. If the shoot is good, its good.

I thought the flechettes sounded pretty neat. I am not sure about using it in your typical suburban home. Of course at $10 for 3 rounds who can afford to test them out?

unspellable
July 7, 2005, 02:10 PM
The "Dragon's Breath" got banned here on grounds that it was too likely to start a brush fire.

dfariswheel
July 7, 2005, 03:14 PM
This type of "gimmick" ammo is marketed to people who like to take their tricked-out "Hollywood" gun to the range or gun shop and impress their equally unknowledgeable friends with it.

Like most gimmick ammo, this stuff is often ineffective and unreliable in a "real world" situation.
ALL of the above types of ammo have been tested over the years, and all have proven unsuited for real use.

The Flechettes were tested in Vietnam, and failed.
The shot joined by wire or cord is wildly inaccurate, and the wire prevents the shot from penetrating when it does hit.
SWAT and anti-terrorists do not use shotgun stun rounds, they use mostly hand grenade-type multi-stage stun munitions commonly known as "Flash-Bangs".

NO professional would ever use this stuff, and think that the people who do are Rambo wanna-be clowns.

If you want a range toy, by all means buy a Hollywood gun with all the accessories you can attach to it, and impress your friends with these loads.

If you're looking at a serious life or death situation, stick with standard loads.

NOTHING says "Stop that, leave us alone" like a load of standard buckshot.

GunnySkox
July 8, 2005, 01:09 PM
Speaking of odd/interesting shotgunny stuff, has anyone here had experience with those Aguila Minishells? I know I've seen them on THR before, but I can't remember who was talking about them, and the search strings I tried didn't get anything back.

~Slam_Fire

Third_Rail
July 8, 2005, 02:34 PM
If it really is a “grenade”, that is it fires a charge that explodes some distance from the barrel, there is a legal restriction on how large that charge can be, for civilian possession. I don’t remember the amount, but it is not much, and certainly not big enough for the claimed “182dB bang, 1.5 to 2 million candlea flash and over pressure on 1.5 to 2 atmospheric pressure units.”

1/4 oz. Wanna bet how much damage that'll do if it's flash powder? Trust me, dealing with superfine Al/KClO4 flash is dangerous.

Slam_Fire - they don't cycle but they sure are easy to single-load and shoot in any pump. In doubles and singles, they work well as well. Neat things, really.

Dave McCracken
July 8, 2005, 07:51 PM
Standard shotgun ammo has a one shot stop record of 99%+. Eschew the trick stuff for real world use.

Cesiumsponge
July 8, 2005, 08:36 PM
Ignition of incendiary materials INSIDE the barrel doesn't sound very healthy to the barrel's life at all. I'll pass unless its an old junker shotgun that's been demoted to "range toy useful to experiment weird ammo with"

12 GA. "Armor Piercing"

This awesome round houses enough power to penetrate the thickest car doors, commercial steel doors and most objects up to 1/4" steel plate. "

The Federal Vitalshok/Hydrashok rifled slugs I was shooting at a friend's property went through the rear quarter panel on the right side of an old steel "target" car, into the old gas tank, out of the old gas tank, and through the rear quarter panel on the other side just fine. Granted it's only 4 layers of sheetmetal and I don't think I hit any subframe.

After testing that, I'm reasonably sure it'll go through the common foam core sheet metal doors used in commercial and residential construction as it's only 2 layers of usually 16 gauge steel.

I was plenty happy with the penetration of the seemingly soft lead slugs...but when should you depend on a shotgun for piercing armor? :confused:

The only gimmick ammo I've seen that might even be remotely useful to me is the emergency flare rounds I've seen. They probably won't cycle my semi-auto, but at least I can pinch one off if I'm ever lost in the woods or need to signal the 160th SOAR for a pickup.

Guy B. Meredith
July 8, 2005, 09:18 PM
The Chabot Gun Club does use flash/bang 12 GA rounds to scare deer off the shooting range. Dern things will walk right down in the middle of a firing period ignoring the noise of rifles.

sumpnz
July 8, 2005, 09:29 PM
Speaking of odd/interesting shotgunny stuff, has anyone here had experience with those Aguila Minishells? I know I've seen them on THR before, but I can't remember who was talking about them, and the search strings I tried didn't get anything back. I've seen them but never tried them myself (not owning a shotgun and all). The FFL I used in Tucson said they were developed for the Winchester 1300 that the Mexican police/military uses. Supposedly they cycle quite reliably in the 1300, but 870's and 500's seem to have quite a bit of trouble with them. We talked about them when I was contemplating buying the 1300 Defender he had. Wound up with a .38 for my wife instead.

GunnySkox
July 9, 2005, 11:32 AM
Eeexcellent, my dad has a Winchester 1300, and my brother has an FN Police Shotgun (a version of the 1300 with a bigger mag tube and rifle sights). I might have to try out some a' these minishells.

~Slam_Fire

Eric Bryant
July 11, 2005, 12:40 PM
The Aguila minishells will cycle in a Mossberg 500 or 590 if you weld a tab onto the elevator so that the shorter rounds don't fall through it. You could affix this extension with pop rivets or epoxy as well, for all I care. For your trouble, you get very respectable capacity from an extended mag tube, and those short little slug rounds are downright fun to shoot. They're definitely not the ticket to killing a deer at 100 yards, but I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one at self-defense range; especially not considering just how easy it is to fire them off in rapid sucession. Assuming you can get them to function reliably in your shotgun of choice, I think they're a great option for home defense.

HankB
July 11, 2005, 12:51 PM
There's a rule of thumb I've found generally applies to stuff like this: The more impressive the name, the less impressive the performance.

If anyone ever brings out ammo called "Extreme Ninja Dragonfire Tactical SpecOps Thor's Hammerhead" I figure either the projectile won't leave the muzzle or the gun will be blown up. Even bet, either way. :rolleyes:

Third_Rail
July 11, 2005, 03:07 PM
I didn't know a solution had been found to using the minishells in 870s and 500s. Maybe I'll make a new elevator that has a stop tab for the shellls.

bubbygator
July 17, 2005, 04:34 PM
I've patterned the Aguila shells with a Stoeger Coach Gun - they're pretty much like standard shells for pattern on paper, but with less recoil as advertised. Don't know how they are on penetration power, but I don't think that would matter much at SD distance. The Aguila slug load is dead-on with my right barrel, but about 10" off in my left barrel at 15 yards.

I had a 1300 that I tried them in also. They cycled & shot OK, but if you weren't snappy with the pump, those short shells jammed in the action. I don't think I'd use them for SD in a pump. I sold the 1300.

The Rabbi
July 17, 2005, 05:46 PM
I just tried thw Aguila mini shells in my Marine 870. They locked the gun up. I had to pound on the slide to get it to open and eject. I dont know what the problem is but it happened 3 times, and that was enough foe me.
Anyone in Nashville want a partial box??

Jack2427
July 17, 2005, 10:07 PM
The flechette round WAS used in Nam. They were used in 105mm howitzer rounds, and was used briefly in 12 ga. SG rounds. In the SG it did not perform as advertised, and the number of "darts" in each payload were not sufficient to have much effect. They were too light to penetrate much foilage, and too few to get any kind of effective pattern at much over 10 yards. Buckshot was eventually found to be more effective. It was very effective at close range against an unprotected or uncovered target, and it could shred a BG quite well if a decent hit was obtained.
But they did not pattern consistently at all, you might get all of them in a BG, or only one.
The Navy SEALS were the moving force for this round, then gave it up as ineffective. I got some from them, and tried them out, much the same result as above, went back to buck for my final five.

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