[Beethoven]

islam and Christianity have been around and been at odds for centuries.

Why are the terrorists starting jihad on us NOW?

Why not a hundred years ago?


Thanks

[lunaslide]

A hundred years ago their kids didn't want Levi's and Coke and cellphones. The fundimentalists believe that the commercial and media infiltration of western influences is a direct attack upon their religion and way of life. This is an extreme reaction to xenophobia.

[carebear]

A little nutshell, non-PC history.

In the 7th century Islam began and quickly overran, with fire and sword, the previously predominately Christian Mediterranean world. Their expansion crushed the Byzantine empire and threatened to overrun Europe itself.

It took hundreds of years for Western civilization to evict the invaders from Europe and, in turn, dominate and colonize the Middle East.

It's only since the petroleum revolution of this century that the Islamic nations had anything worth dealing with them for, and a "better" West which would let them have their autonomy back.

Oil brought money, money brought media and media brought jealousy for the success of us infidels.

Basically, they came to realize their civilization had produced nothing of note for over a thousand years and that fact threatened the inborn superiority they feel because of their faith. Add in power-seeking Luddite mullahs afraid of a domestically-driven Reformation / Renaissance by the young to modernize and secularize like the West has and you have a powderkeg.

Which the extremists have lit off.

On a practical level. They (the extremists) only got the reach to do any real harm outside the region by adopting the techniques and technology of the infidel. If they had stuck with what they could manage on their own they'd still be raiding on camels.

[rock jock]

I think the extremists in the Islamic countries are jealous that they are not on the same playing field in the global community as the US, Europe, Asia. They cannot blame themselves for this situation so they blame others. It is really no different than Columbine - punk loser kids who don't get along, who are anti-social, and in the end believe that their legacy will be one of destruction.

[Zundfolge]

Because the Wahhabi Muslims didn't gain any serious power until they took over Saudi Arabia in 1924.

And its the Wahabbists that are on this whole "kill all the infidels" kick.

[El Tejon]

Start now? Start? Dude, they have never quit!

Just ask Charles the Hammer, Meccaites, the Hindus, etc., inter alia, when the jihad started. :D

Zun, not all Wahabbists. Qatar/the Trucial States are on our side, right, right? :scrutiny:

[roo_ster]

carebear's quick & dirty synopsis is spot-on.

Islam has been warring against the West since its inception. They had some large & quick victories at first (N Africa, Eastern Med, South-central Asia) and were only stopped from invading W Europe through the Iberian peninsula in 732 at the Battle of Orleans by Charles the Hammer.

The West fought back for the Holy Lands during the Crusades. They were minimally successful at their aims and only for a short time, but it did distract militant Islam from attcking the West in the West. That is significant.

Militant Islam kept up the pressure, eventually ending the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantium) in the mid-1400s, making inroads into southern Europe, and laying siege to Vienna & the Hapsburg Empire. Islam was put on the downward spiral by the steady loss of the Iberian peninsula and the sea Battle of Lepanto (mid-1500s). Islam lost some ground, but the internal rot was more telling than battle losses. Militant Islam slowly lost the ability to be a real threat to the West as it rotted and the West progressed.

By the turn of the 20th century, Islam was a hollow shell of its former gandeur. The Ottoman Empire, the largest Muslim empire/polity, was rotten and faltering, and put out of its misery after WWI.

Islam spent the next 40 years warring with itself, setting up one nasty dictator after another, and importing the worst of western culture: socialism, fascism, etc. It as only with the advent of quick & cheap global transportation and information dissemination that militant Islam has been able to harm us on our own soil...using the tools/technology we invented.

[lostone1413]

You won't see anything major happen in this country for awhile. The terrorist coming across the Mexican border all have to get in position first. Then all hell will break out in this country. Wonder then if the congress, senate and president will be looked at as great leaders or traitors?

[El Tejon]

The Mexican border? Ummm, how many of the 9/11 guys came over the Mexican border? :uhoh:

[carebear]

Don't underestimate the shear logistical difficulty of just getting here.

They had how long to recruit, train and move into place the guys who did 9/11? That was in a comparatively unfocused and sleeping world and they still couldn't manage enough men to even pull off their original plan.

There's a whole lot more involved than just "coming across from Mexico". They don't just appear on the border ready to go and the Atlantic is a big ocean. Their experienced cadre are well-known and are now being hunted with varying degrees of effort worldwide, the experienced soldiers have been heavily attrited, they have had their ready recruit pool attracted to a more convenient killing ground in Iraq, they no longer have the easy safe-haven training camps and the West is awake to them now. Even coordinating remaining or new, domestically-grown, sleepers is going to be tough against the intel resources we have focused now. These guys ain't sheepherders but they ain't rocket scientists either.

I predict that we'll see more and more attacks in nice nearby Europe simply because the cost ratio keeps going up to pull off another dinger in the US. Remember, they have to upstage themselves, they already set the bar for "attacks on the Great Satan". To move down to 20, 30, even a hundred victims in a single event would be an embarrassment.

To try a death of a thousand cuts now would be counter-productive since we in essence absorbed the worst they could muster on a good day. I don't mean to downplay the potential risk, but if it comes again I think they would have to do a WMD to not be dismissed by their intended audience.

[Rebar]

The label "radical" applied to the terrorists is inaccurate. Reading the koran, it's clear that their reading of it is the correct one. The so called "moderates" are the ones who are picking and choosing the parts they like, and leaving the rest, I'd call them the real "radicals".

A better set of labels would be to call the terrorists/jiadists "traditional" moslems, and the so-called moderates "reformed" moslems.

[308win]

It is just a matter of time before a terrorist group gets the material they need to pull off a dirty (or not dirty) nuclear event in the US. The Iranians, North Koreans, Pakistanis, various former USSR republics, and maybe others have the material the terrorists need to do a nuclear event in US; in the mean time we are bleeding ourselves on Duuuuhbyas lizard racing exercise in Iraq .

[Marshall]

The border? Although I do believe that's a major problem, don't assume terrorists haven't already been here for quite some time.

[1911 guy]

Charles Martel and Gen. "Black Jack" Pershing. Islam, or militants inside Islam, have been anti-anything-but-themselves since the conception of the religion in the early centuries A.D. They have been checked at critical points in history by such men. Let us hope this continues.

[Standing Wolf]

Why are the terrorists starting jihad on us NOW?

Parts of the answer include: population density, the ability of ordinary people to travel great distances for very little money, and modern explosives technology, none of which were available even fifty years ago.

There's a great deal more involved, of course, but no answer will be complete without considering those factors.

[Double Naught Spy]

Why have the terrorists waited so long to start jihad?

They didn't wait. You just don't know your foreign history and are not familiar with current events and recent history of the last century.

Jihad has never had to be an all out war. The reward for waging it is not so much on the societal level as it is on the individual level.

[jeff-10]

Why not a hundred years ago?

How about two centuries ago? Ever hear of the Barbary Pirates? Americas first foreign military action? Muslims. They didn't have jet liners and explosive belts back then. They used the 19th century form of terror. Piracy.

[Third_Rail]

I would like to refer everyone to the idea of "grass" in Edo period Japan.

I believe that this is going on in the USA right now, and that in decades, possibly centuries, we'll be screwed. (if we haven't done their job for them by ourselves, that is)

[Frandy]

I would like to refer everyone to the idea of "grass" in Edo period Japan.

You mean the idea of the Ninja hiding in the grass to protect their castles, villages, etc., right. Are you suggesting we do that to protect our "castles" or that the enemy will be hiding in the grass waiting to attack us. Different concept.

[Third_Rail]

You misunderstand. Grass was a term to describe the specific agents used against the people by the rather less pleasant ones in power.

They would go to a villiage, buy a little land, start a house, get married, have kids, etc. Many years down the road, if called on, they'd know practically everything to know about that villiage - how to destroy it easily, etc.

I believe that since our borders are open currently but our guard inside our country is up, their best bet would be to do something like that. Since they do obviously have brains, I honestly think that may be what they're up to in the USA.



Best possible defense, IMO, is to do the same but in other countries. Spies, if you'd like to call them that. Families, culture, do the whole thing to blend in. You learn a whole lot when people think you're one of their group.

[NoViuM]

Rocket back about 1/4 century ago when Russia was still our "enemy." Corporations and governments both US and abroad believed there where massive natural reserves in the Caspian Sea. Works where in progress for a pipeline to run through Afghanistan to the Indian Ocean. Russia wanted Afghanistan for its natural resources, and to control this pipeline...

Regardless of the reasons as to why Russia wanted to rule Afghanistan, America had economic interests in helping our poor Brown friends. (If you listen to Carlin you'll remember that the only countries we've bombed since W.W.II are full of brown people...) We've never been in the business of stopping tyranny or genocide; I don't care how far back you sit on the armchair. Talk to a Russian about the atrocities the Lenin carried out, and if that doesn't settle your over patriotic flag waving another name comes to mind Poll Pot. I digress, America couldn't risk straight warfare with Russia so we did what hasn't worked for us in the past, and that's to train the people being invaded. Most of you will chime in when this name comes up. Usama Bin Laden was paid by the CIA to assist Afghani’s in "Guerilla Warfare" if you're on the other side of the fence it's refereed to as terrorism. These Muja Hudine freedom fighters where trained in camp all over the middle east by CIA, Usama, and other various people in their Jihad against the infidel Russians. Oddly enough the major turning point in the Jihad against the Russians where stinger surface to air missiles provide by the good ole USA.

Well, the war ends with the USA giving Russian their Vietnam, and the pipeline goes through. Only the US has trained thousands of Guerilla warriors, provided them with weapons and sent them on their way to do as they please. Some of them, unhappy with the actions of Israel or just the Zionists in general went on to employ the tactics we trained them for some of them with their own little twist on things such as flying fully loaded cross-country jet liners into building to destabilize the economy and cause the country to tear itself apart to stop an enemy that it can't see or stop. In some of Bin Laden's writings or writings that were attributed to him, he states that the American governments reaction to attacks will wake up Americans to what’s been happening and it will be in the hands of the people to stop the governments support of the evil Zionists. Which are committing horrible genocide against his people.

Take it all with a grain of salt of course, but some of it definitely explains the actions of the US over the past couple decades. Just my opinion and a collection of things I didn’t hear on the overly censored media.

[Marshall]

Don't you think Guerrilla warfare and terrorism are different in that case? The guerrillas were fighting soldiers of Russia, terrorist kill and prey on innocent civilians. I see it as a big difference.

Just because we helped a Afghan hound doesn't mean we are at fault for them deciding to be Pitt Bulls.

(no offense to Pitt Bulls) :neener:

[shermacman]

NoViuM:
First of all, Welcome!
Second of all, congrats on your post here. It captures some, but by no means all, of the idiocies of the Typical Democratic Underground Troll. Bin Laden was a paid employee of the CIA? You wouldn't have a copy of Osama's 1099 form, would you?
George Carlin and "Brown People"? Dude, George Carlin is an angry embittered ex-comedian.
"We have never been in the business of stopping tyranny." Really.
Oh, and the Afghanistan pipeline thingy, how did that turn out? :rolleyes:

[middy]

Tool.

[NoViuM]

Last I checked Guerilla warfare was using IED, and sabatoge tactics to weaken the enemy from within. It also involved using the enemies weapons against them.

Remember Americans where the cowards for not using standard colonail warfare against the Britts. Hunters, trappers, and farmers had no intentions of standing against well trained military personel. Americans also where of the first to start capping anyone of rank off in the first stages of battle. Americans perfected "cowardly" warfare long before Mujahadine freedom fighters did.

http://www.cceia.org/viewMedia.php/prmTemplateID/8/prmID/4421
I doubt Mr. Laden as a social security number thus doesn't have to pay much in taxes.

George Carlin: cited his sources, panama, lybia, grenada, afghanastan, and Iraq. Now, you name a country of Anglo people since WWII that we have conducted bombing runs on....

The pipeline worked out great, gass is 2.00+ a gallon so I guess it worked out perfect.

[roo_ster]

(If you listen to Carlin you'll remember that the only countries we've bombed since W.W.II are full of brown people...)
How many brown people in Bosnia, Serbia, and Kosovo?

Though; if we were to ignore Bosnia, Serbia, and Kosovo; just how many wars, violent revolutions, violent insurgencies, & the like have occurred in (to use your sort of descriptor) "non-brown" countries since WWII? I can think of very few: N Ireland & the Spanish Basques are about it.

They would go to a villiage, buy a little land, start a house, get married, have kids, etc. Many years down the road, if called on, they'd know practically everything to know about that villiage - how to destroy it easily, etc.

I believe that since our borders are open currently but our guard inside our country is up, their best bet would be to do something like that. Since they do obviously have brains, I honestly think that may be what they're up to in the USA.

That may or may not be the mission or object, but it will be the reality if we don't aggessively assimilate such immigrants and impress our values upon them.

Today, we have such immigrant population concentrations (Richardson, TX; Dearborn, MI; other locales) that have the critical mass necessary to maintain their old culture, language, and attitudes. The steady influx of new immigrants ensures this critical mass does not dissipate.

[shermacman]

NoVium:
This is from your link, Steve Coll, the author of Ghost Wars: "I find no evidence that the CIA had direct contact with bin Laden."
Your link, NoVium, your very link...! That is how you propose to argue your position? Shot down by your very own reference?!
One other annoying detail, there is no pipeline across Afghanistan.

[Blackhawk 6]

Last I checked Guerilla warfare was using IED, and sabatoge tactics to weaken the enemy from within. It also involved using the enemies weapons against them.

Guerrilla Warfare: Military and paramilitary operations conducted in enemy-held or hostile territory by irregular, predominantly indigenous forces.

Insurgency:An organized movement aimed at the overthrow of a constituted government through the use of subversion and armed conflict.

Terrorism: The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religios or idealogical.

FWIW, I was all over Afghanistan and never saw any pipeline.

[RealGun]

Why was the Air Force asked to leave Saudi Arabia?

Israel didn't exist 100 years ago.

Oil was not a big deal 100 years ago, nor did "the infidels" have a great presence in or interest in the Middle East.

[JohnBT]

They were too busy killing each other 100 years ago.

Oh wait a minute. They still are. Nevermind.

JT ;)



Now, about this statement, "Only the US has trained thousands of Guerilla warriors."

The country you're talking about has a rich, rich history of training their own warriors. Centuries and centuries in fact. Read a little about their 3 wars with Britain. Pay particular attention to the part below about the 1 survivor out of 4000.

"First Afghan War (1838–42); the British invaded Afghanistan to protect their own interests after Persia, encouraged by Russia, became involved in the region. Although successful at first, a later Afghan rising drove them out of Afghanistan, and of the 4,000 British who formed the garrison of Kabul only one arrived safely at Jalalabad. Another British expedition was dispatched, which captured Kabul, released British prisoners there, and then evacuated the country."

[Kim]

Here is the thing that gets me about the left''''''''''''''When they see the past ie history and the future it is all through left wing glasses. Forget that war has been going on in this world for thousands of years, forget that the idea of who owns what is relevent over time, that there is a long and complicated history that they just gloss over and boil it all down to it is the paternalistic,christian, western european, , capitalistic, greedy,animal hating and eating,global warming,genetic enginerred seed producers,SUV driving, gun owning,ignorant,slave owning,imperalistic, militaristic, flag waving patriotic USA that caused all of human suffering and is the GREATEST EVIL in the world. They sound just like our enemies. Which of coarse is our fault. Reminds me of Howard Zinn and the ranting of such "Historians". I have had about all I can stand of their talk. Sorry I'm in a bad mood today. :what: Oh what the heck don't leave out from their rant that it is the JEWS fault also.

[rwc]

Parts of the answer include: population density,

Close. I think the "pipeline" feeding recruits into Jihad Intl. is the demographics of the middle east.

Many countries have a majority of their population under the age of 30. Add to this a small but decent educational system (and access to US and Eur. University for many), that turns out well educated people with absolutely no prospect for employment in their chosen field. Top it off with a totalitarian domestic political system that offers no realistic opportunity to better their situation. Now add a dash of governmental and religious authorities blaming everything wrong in your world on the USA.

To be clear, I am in no way excusing terrorism, merely identifying what I believe to be root factors. I think if we wish to confront it successfully we have to address these root causes. To put it bluntly, they can recruit faster than we are willing to kill. And in my view that is as it should be since if we took that path ("nuke 'em 'till they glow" etc.) they will have succeeded in changing our values.

To be ultimately successful we will need to see representative democracies and basic respect for human rights and property rights in every nation. We can't make it happen, but we can go a long way towards fostering it.

We likely won't know the outcome of our current "experiment" in Iraq for at least a decade. The recent events in Lebanon and elsewhere are encouraging, but not determinative. Iran and Syria must still be confronted if we are to truly get a handle on international terrorism and neither is an easy problem to solve.

Now ain't those some cheerful thoughts on a Friday night?!? :scrutiny:

[Crosshair]

Just wean ourselves off their Oil. Problem solved. Take away the money and they can't fund such plans as easily.

[rwc]

Just wean ourselves off their Oil.

I fear it is not so simple. The Columbian model of narco-terrorism has been embraced elsewhere and is more than sufficiently profitable to fund al quaeda type operations.

My fear is that either the middle east oil reserves running down or our developing some degree of energy independance will actually exacerbate the situation. The economic depression that will follow the loss of (or significant decrease in) oil revenues will put even more folks out of work/off the dole creating even further social/political disruption.

[Rebar]

rwc is correct. The ME needs to sell us oil even more than we need to buy it.

The entire Arab world doesn't produce even one exportable manufactured good, does not export any significant agricultural product, or have any other mineral deposits worth mining.

Without oil, the entire Arab would would sink to Bangladesh-level poverty.

[longrifleman]

ARTICLE (http://amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html)

This article gives a different perspective from someone who has actually studied the problem. Worth a read.

[rwc]

Pape has certainly done some interesting work, but I think his view is rather limited. Or to put it more precisely, the conclusions he is reaching based upon the data he has studied (suicide terrorism) is a fairly small subset of a rather broad range of terroristic behavior. I have no reason to question his conclusions connecting suicidal terrorism to a foreign occupation by a group holding different religious beliefs.

However, he appears to have circumscribed his analysis to what would likely end or significantly decrease suicidal terroristic attacks. That is not our nation's most serious existential threat, let alone the greatest threat to our troops on the ground in Iraq. IEDs account for a far greater number of casualties to US and coalition forces from the reports I have read.

My opinion, and it is only that, is that we collectively need to assist Iraqis, Saudis, Egyptians, etc. in obtaining the means by which to control their own destiny. I.e., Democracy. We have started down this path in Iraq. Saudi is a very different question and one we are unlikely confront militarily. If I were Bashear al Assad I would be very, very nervous...

[Cosmoline]

Why are the terrorists starting jihad on us NOW?

What are you talking about? Radical slam has been launching wave after wave of attack on "infidels" since its birth. This is only the latest chapter.

[NoViuM]

I apologise for some of my *cough* "overly leftist" *cough* posts before. I had a couple of my facts skewed, it's not worth going over mainly because it accomplishes nothing but adding more fuel to the fire oppinions are like a@#holes, everyones got one and they all stink.

Rebar: Between the twin rivers is where some say the garden of eden was. It is some of the most fertile agricultural land in the world. My uncle (National Guardsman) just got back prematurely (IED to the humvee) and says that they are one of their largest export of sunflower seeds. While over there he was baptised in the euprhaties river so it's safe to say he's familiar with the area. I believe poppy seeds are growing pretty good in Afghanastan at least that what I hear. :)

I'm glad we're all close to the same page as far as counterterrorism measures being conducted. There are less sheeple buying into the terror level rainbow than I thought. There is no one simple answer but with the exchange of enough ideas maybe there will be enough people on board to expedite peace over there in some form or fashion short of "Nuke'm 'till it's a parking lot"

[RealGun]

There is no one simple answer but with the exchange of enough ideas maybe there will be enough people on board to expedite peace over there in some form or fashion short of "Nuke'm 'till it's a parking lot"

Peace is not the short term priority. Maintaining resolve and accomplishing the mission is the priority. Peace will come in its own time, given an environment that will support it and sustain it.

I see any rabid peace movement as disingenuous. I think these people want to spend military money on welfare, calling it health care, education, and helping the poor. They have no power without available budget to appropriate. They hate tax cuts and reduced entitlements for the same reason. They want to take money from the "haves" and give it to the "have nots". Problem is, wars protect the "haves". Gotta make money before you can give it away. 'Can't have it both ways. There must be a balance in there somewhere. :scrutiny:

[DRZinn]

If you listen to Carlin you'll remember that the only countries we've bombed since W.W.II are full of brown people...you name a country of Anglo people since WWII that we have conducted bombing runs on....Ummm... Bosnia, Serbia, Kosovo?

Yeah, George Carlin, the great authority on US foreign policy, was wrong. Maybe it'd help, though, when you start admiring his prescience too much, to consider which countires are NOT filled with "little brown people." Let's see - there's Europe, which, so far, is stable and doesn't need to be bombed. There's Australia, which is stable and doesn't need to be bombed. There's Russia, which has the capability and the will to bomb us back. And there's Canada, which will soon self-destruct anyway. (For that matter, so will much of Europe.) It just so happens that the problems usually occur in the areas populated by "little brown people," so that's where we bomb.

Tool.

[Marshall]

It all makes me wonder when enough is enough?

Do we keep our immigration policies in place and let as many of the little brown people, as someone named them, come here as they see fit? How many is enough? Will there be a day that 1/2 of the population is the US is little brown people? What happens if because of our policies we end up with division and a civil war but against terror tactics this time? Do we wait until that point in time, which is too late IMO, to do something about it?

As I see it, it's just a matter of time before terror related events start happening again in the USA. I understand that fighting them "over there" is beneficial to us but I think it would be naive to believe that we don't have this heading our way. Do we just sit here with current immigration policies and basically invite it? Are we going to wake up someday and say "hey, wait just a minute, sumpin be wrong here", because we kept to our existing policies too long?

[lostone1413]

The borders should have been sealed long ago. Funny as much as non whites hate the whites they all come to the whites to help them.

[NoViuM]

At the rate the current "minorities" are multiplying without counting immigration will cause Anglo persons to be in the minority outside of 50 years I think... That's at current birth rates, and assuming they don't destabilize and get bombed... I wouldn't mind a couple areas of the city get blown off the map.

[Cosmoline]

It all makes me wonder when enough is enough?

Do we keep our immigration policies in place and let as many of the bog trotters, as someone named them, come here as they see fit? How many is enough? Will there be a day that 1/2 of the population is the US is drunk Papist trash? What happens if because of our policies we end up with division and a civil war but against IRA terror tactics this time? Do we wait until that point in time, which is too late IMO, to do something about it?

http://www.yale.edu/glc/images/03.jpg

[RealGun]

I wouldn't mind a couple areas of the city get blown off the map. - NoViuM

While not comfortable with the tone of your posts, I will say that you may get your wish with the recent redefinition of eminent domain and property rights.

[carebear]

Slainte, Cosmo :D

[Cosmoline]

Sadly, my warning came too late. We're now completely overrun with Irish music festivals, Catholic churches and even the horror of Riverdance!

http://www.knpb.org/programming/Festival_2005/images/riverdance.jpg

The bog trotters have COMPLETELY TAKEN OVER! They're clearly using these "brown men" from the south to bolster their position as our new lords and masters.

[21H40]

I'd mentioned in another thread 2 books that have offered me some insight into terrorism. First is Martin VanCleed's (I left it at home, and can't ref. the author's name, but it is something like that) The Transformation of War and the second is a newer one called Jihad vs McWorld (again, I've forgotten the author).

Transformation discusses the impossibility of a non-superpower force directly opposing a superpower in warfare and being successful. It also goes over "Low Intensity Conflicts" and relevance of nuclear weapons, but the main idea here is if YOU had a group of supporters with minimal funding (they can't afford B-52's, B-1's or M-1A tanks) how would you defeat the American military? It has less to do with Islam than technology and world globalization / development. If you want to use violence successfully against Americans (or other 1st world nations), you don't waste energy shooting tanks with AK's -- you make "safe" places unsafe, grocery stores, places of buisness, etc.

Just like unmanned IED's are currently more effective than active ambushes because personel are in less immediate danger of retaliation from surviving forces.