[Drjones]

I am so :cuss: -ing livid right now, I'm ready to drive down to San Fran with some guns.

I've been hearing on the news all afternoon about the various anti-"war" protests all over the place.

It seems to be the worst in SF where the protestors have actually been PULLING PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR CARS AND BEATING THEM.

They do this because they are "protesting violence" right????

:cuss: times 1,000,000

I am pretty close to making that 1 hour trip and watch them try to pull my G30 out of my car.

AND THEN the news covers the OTHER anti-"war" protests around the world.

First, and most nauseatingly, the French. (NO, this isn't another "bash the french" thread, thank you)

Thousands of parisians (not going to capitalize french stuff anymore) took to the streets in paris.

They quoted one girl saying, :cheesy french accent: "Uh, what is happening there (in iraq) is not democratic." /cheesy french accent.

And all the while, I"m thinking how 11,000 of our men and women are buried on their soil.

How our men and women, MY GRANDFATHER INCLUDED, risked and gave lives for that ungrateful, ignorant, socialistic :cuss: to sit there and spout garbage that she isn't even old enough to know all about.

I say this honestly, flame away, I don't care: a while ago there were reports that some places in Europe, france included, had recieved threats from Al Quaeda.

I hope al q makes good on those threats to the French.

And I wish I could be there to pick up the phone when that spineless, amoral, ignorant :cuss: they call a president calls OUR president to beg for help.

"Uh, sorry jaques, we decided we're gonna stop sticking our nose into other people's business. Your protestors were right. *click*"

:cuss: :cuss: :cuss:

And THEN, they show some footage of another protest in England. I saw a TIBETAN FLAG behind the reporter.

Tell me, if this is truly a protest against the WAR IN IRAQ, WHAT is a TIBETAN FLAG doing there???

I mean, other than the fact that these morons are just pushing their communistic, anti-America, anti-Bush agenda, and could care less about any war nor peoples lives or safety.

When this is all said and done, and we who supported the war are vindicated and proven right, I don't think I will EVER trust anyone who is liberal or left ever again.

I would not be able to.


*wipe foam from mouth*

/rant

[Kevlarman]

I have the exact same sentiments, Drjones.

Frankly, I'm more afraid of the protestors than the alleged terrorists that are going to attack. Time to put on the Kevlar vest.

[DeltaElite]

Just shows what the protestors are really about, now don't it. :(

[Blackhawk]

Look up or otherwise find out what "it don't mean nothin" meant among our guys during the Vietnam War, Drjones.

The world and our country have an overabundance of jerks. Don't let them mess with you or mess you up.

[Drjones]

Delta and Kevlar:

Ditto 100%.



Blackhawk:

I will always take The High Road, because I am better than them.

I just had to vent.

I wish I could express the support and gratitude I have for our men and women over there fighting.

[Kevlarman]

You could always write them letters or send care packages. That's what I'm going to do.

[CZ-75]

Time to declare martial law in SF and issue shoot-to-kill orders against all protestors who engage in acts of violence or looting.

Saw FoxNews interview w/ Newt Gingrich. They asked him if what was going on in SF surprised him.

"Nothing that goes on in San Francisco surprises me." :D

The interview was good and he really skewered the democrats in the house as being "anti-war, anti-military and anti-american." Also made a point that they will excuse foreign despots, but are first to blame America.

[Sven]

My roomate (not friend) was arrested in downtown SF today.

The same roomate who told me with a straight face that she believes that Bill Clinton didn't inhale.

[fallingblock]

"it don't mean nothin"

"it don't mean nothin"

"it don't mean nothin"

For those protestors using violence or unlawfully detaining others:

Arrest the suckers!
Use those batons!
Gas! Where's the gas?

I tried.....

:D :D :D

(edited to clarify justification for use of force...)

[atek3]

It seems to be the worst in SF where the protestors have actually been PULLING PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR CARS AND BEATING THEM.

These incidents are COMPLETELY in the minority. I know about 30 people who got arrested in today's protest. They weren't looting, they weren't vandalizing. They were however, blocking intersections (and for that they were rightly arrested). But claiming that the cops should whip out the tear gas, batons and shoot to kill, jesus christ. Sounds like you want to live in a police state. "Sorry sir, your ideas aren't 'patriotic', you're under arrest".



In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me -
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Or slightly more contemporary

In Amerika they first came for the Leftists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Leftist.

Then they came for the Gun Owners,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Gun Owner.

Then they came for the Tax Protestors,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Tax Protestor.

Then they came for the Libertarians,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Libertarian.

Then they came for me -
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

If you don't think it could happen, just smile and keep telling yourselves that.

atek3

[Mike Irwin]

Yep...

Doesn't make much sense...

Sort of like having sex for virginity...

[spacemanspiff]

there was one image caught on abcnews last night that i was surprised made it on the air.

a protestor is surrounded by police and he has a child sitting on his shoulders, maybe 8-10 yrs of age. obviously the protestor is not complying with the police demands and they close in, grab the kid and take the man down.
if you werent watching the video all the way through and knew what was going on around him, it looks like the kind of thing an aclu lawyer would dream of suing over.

[BigG]

Oxygen thieves.

[BigG]

With all due respect, in the updated Martin Niemoller parody you got it a little bit out of order. In America today the Leftists would be the ones who would come for everybody else, as the violence in the name of (cough) peace testifies. Only the worst sort of trash identifies with what we refer to as the leftists in America in this day and age.

[ImJustRick]

Hey...

I wonder if anyone could give me a source for the "pulling-out-of-cars-and-beating" stories? Might help convince my better half that she should be carrying now, too.

Thanks

-R

[Raymond VanDerLinden]

Atek3

What did the other protesters do. Watch? Cheer them on? I know one thing they didn't do, they didn't stop the attacks on innocent people.

That is not a minority thing, it is a minority action with majority agreement. But no that might make me unpopular amoung my protest buddies.

These guys are venting, but I would bet that if someone came after you, there are allot of people on this Board that would come to your defense. I would almost guaruntee you stand back and say those stupid Right winger diserved what they got.

So Maybe you should rethink your Minority statement unless you are willing to put a stop to it, you agree with it. I agree that this unfortunate war is a sad nessessity therefor I do not protest.

[atek3]

I don't think the majority of them agreed. The majority of them 'LOATHE' black bloc'ers. However, black bloc'ers tend to be armed w/ something and most anti-war protesters believe in the 'sheeple' theory of personal defense, thus are unarmed.

atek3

[CZ-75]

Atek,

If protestors wish to be violent, I see nothing wrong with using lethal force.

I also don't see this as a "free speech" issue. They crossed that line a long time ago; they are thugs, not demonstrators. It is an attempt at subversion and the target isn't the govt., but everyone else. Besides, I think the rest of us could use the extra oxygen.

Your view of democratic principles is pretty warped if you countenance the use of violence against those who don't agree with you. Sounds like the same way the Brownshirts exercised their view of democracy.

[spacemanspiff]

i think they should take a blackhawk, load the mini-gun with blanks, and unleash on the crowds of protestors. theres just something about hearing that gun firing at full speed that gets my adrenalin flowing. i watch "blackhawk down" once a week while i'm working (with the video minimized and listening to audio on headphones) just to hear those miniguns at work.

it might make the protestors think twice about destroying property or disrupting the peace.

why is it that if i walk out of my house with my pistol openly carriend in a OWB i run the risk of getting arrested for "disrupting the peace" by a complaint from a frightened sheeple, but mobs of angry protestors who willingly engage in violent behavior and crimes are ignored because they are 'exercising their first amendment rights'?

all the protestors should be arrested and sentenced to serve 300 hours of community service, with a $5,000 fine, plus the costs to repair the damages from their fellow protestors. how do you think all the mommys and daddys of these students will feel having to cough up the cash for their kids to 'exercise their rights'?

[bogie]

Thanks for reminding me - The k-bar is goin' back between my car seats... Someone sticks something into my car window, I'm keepin' it.

[jmbg29]

I don't think the majority of them agreed.If they didn't, they would have stopped the thugs. To "speak up",with no ability to back up the words, is meaningless drivel.

Hiding behind the "I'm incompetent to defend myself, much less others." BS is for cowards and scum.

Hijacking the words of the Reverend Martin Niemoller by making it "slightly more contemporary
" (and without acknowledging him BTW), for the purpose of chastizing us while giving your cowardly friends a pass, is equally offensive.

Feel free to marginalize one's self and one's cause by the side of the road all one wishes. I'm always in need of a good laugh. Just don't think that one can impede, harrass, or intimidate me - or others in my presence - without the expectation of a bruised body and/or a fractured skull, minimum.

:cuss:ing parasites!:fire: :fire: :fire:

[TallPine]

After we get done with Iraq, how about we attack California and take Grey Davis out of power?

:D

[Raymond VanDerLinden]

You sound like you would be one of the protestors. You wouldn't seem to be part of the Sheeple, if you post here.

I don't think you're a troll are you? Or maybe your just an appologist for the Protestors?

If your not a Sheeple but you are a Protestor that doesn't agree with the "Black bloc'er's" why didn't you do Something.

Only a useful Idiot would allow these "Black Bloc'ers" to make you all look bad. If you had the courage of your conviction you would at least help the police stop them. Nope can't do that huh? :barf:

When they beat the innocent motorist I didn't say or do anything as I was afraid ETC. :banghead:

[Mute]

If the protestors stayed on the sidewalk, did not block traffic or do anything to others, I couldn't care less. They could protest 'til the cows come home and I don't have a problem.

The minute they interfered with the rights of others, they became criminals and needed to be treated as such. If they behaved like violent criminals, then they should be on the receiving end of whatever force is necessary to stop them. Period.

[MK11]

Just pull a Tianneman Square on the Golden Gate Bridge, eh?

A lot of these protests are just cover for people who want to smash and destroy. Look at the World Economic forums in Seattle and New York. Most of the people smashing and looting had no agenda other than smashing and looting, they don't care about the larger issues at hand. I'm sure that's the case with some people in San Francisco too and anybody engaging in violence should be put down hard.

But there are a lot of people who are "legitimately" trying to protest the war. Whether or not you agree with them, you've got to take the good with the bad in a free society, not send in the gunships and start blasting indiscriminately

No flame intended.

[Bulldozer]

If you wish to make a buffoon of yourself and peacefully protest, fine. When you cross the line, then you become a criminal. The appropriate level of police force needs to be vigorously applied.

The sad thing is that these herds of pot-heads and hippies are taking police and LEOs away from standing vigilant guard against a potential terrorist act by their stupid shows of excessive drug induced behavior.

[BigG]

The one thing that's sure is there are no taxpayers in the picket line. Anybody with a full time job is busy working while those couch potatoes make jackasses out of themselves. :scrutiny:

[hops]

These clowns are hard core communists, being funded by the International Brotherhood of Communists. There were several articles in various papers before the commencement of hostilities, saying that they were prepared to step-up the protesting once hostilities commence.

These folks are funded by an outside org bent upon subverting the U.S. These folks have no freedom of speech rights once an outside party 'pays' them to do their bidding. Declare them 'enemy combatants' and bury them alive in a big hole somewhere.

[Drjones]

These incidents are COMPLETELY in the minority. I know about 30 people who got arrested in today's protest. They weren't looting, they weren't vandalizing. They were however, blocking intersections (and for that they were rightly arrested). But claiming that the cops should whip out the tear gas, batons and shoot to kill, jesus christ. Sounds like you want to live in a police state. "Sorry sir, your ideas aren't 'patriotic', you're under arrest".

You can have whatever ideas you want in this country, and you are free to express your ideas, as loathsome as they may be.

When you start violence and start a riot, you turn into a common, low-life thug.

It is my opinion that the lives of people who would willingly destroy private and public property backed up with a gang of other thugs are worthless.

I do not believe that police should have to deal with such filth.

I think they should sit on top of a building and snipe away.

Don't worry...a few bodies hittin' the pavement, and it would all stop pretty quick, and you can be sure it wouldn't happen again.

Protest all you want.

Riot, and pay the price.

Make no mistake, the idiots who riot and protest do not care about this or any war.

Their hypocrisy is clear: THEY USE VIOLENCE TO PROTEST VIOLENCE.

All they are doing is protesting America, Bush, Capitalism, Freedom, you name it, and they hate it.

Unless you are one of them, of course.

:banghead: :fire:

[Jackanape]

Yesterday I witnessed a group of protestors jump on a man's car at the corner of Washington and Motgomery. They broke the car's windshield, and severely dented in the roof (by jumping up and down on it). I saw this from the window of my office, and I felt that I had to do something. I went downstairs to try to help the driver out, but I couldn't get out of my building as security had locked the building down to prevent the vermin outside from trashing the place. I've never been more furious in my entire life. I called the cops, it took 20 minutes to get through. The cops finally did show up, and what did they do? They just shooed the vermin away, leving the driver with a severely damaged car. No arrests were made.

When I finally got home, I watched KTVU channel 2 news to see the full scope of what the vermin had pulled off. The two things from the news report that made me want to vomit were; first the large pile of WEAPONS (pipe wrenches, slingshots, knives, clubs, and stun guns) that were confiscated from the PEACE protestors (oy the irony...), and secondly, the fact that the vermin had tied up the city's 911 system with false reports do divert police away from the body of the protest.

I've never had any respect for the collectivist scum that runs these protests, but now I've got nothing but hatred for them. Yesterday's protest cost the city $500,000 in police overtime alone. I'll be damned if I'll pay a dime of it. Internationa ANSWER seems to have deep pockets, send them the bill...

[JPM70535]

What is called for is an 8.5 Richter scale earthquake that would cause "Kalifornia" to break off and sink into the pacific Ocean.

With the exception of THRs I cant see where this would be anything but a good thing.

[QuickDraw]

Tallpine said:

After we get done with Iraq, how about we attack California and take Grey Davis out of power?

Thats the best idea I've heard in a long time! :D

QuickDraw

[Raymond VanDerLinden]

I agree but why won't the Protesters take any resposiblity to "Police there own" in stead we get the well we really "Loathe" them but we're not to blame when they come along and we tolerate their actions.

The Truth is that a peaceful protest even when they block the street gets very little press. Tear stuff up or pound on some motorists and the press will pay attention to your cause.

These Protestor can cry all they want. They want the violent element they just don't want to admit it. They are hipocrites Just like the anti Defense crowd. They don't want to have a gun or Protect themselves but they want to be able to call someone like me to Defend them. Make me :barf:

[DeltaElite]

I respond to force, with force and I am much better at using force than the POS protestors in this country. :D
So let's dance. :D

[Jackanape]

atek3, with all due respect, the violent actions carried out yesterdat in San Francisco were not the exception, they were the rule. And while some protestors may in fact loathe black bloc idiots, they do nothing to stop the black bloc from causing mayhem. What's that saying about lying down with dogs?

The actions described in this article show what the folks who weren't engaging in violence were up to. Class acts each and every one...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2003/03/20/heaving.DTL

Again, these people are vermin and should be treated accordingly...

[Drjones]

Those are, uh, "interesting" websites you have links to on your homepage there, atek.

That explains some of the thought behind your statements here.

[Drjones]

i think they should take a blackhawk, load the mini-gun with blanks, and unleash on the crowds of protestors. theres just something about hearing that gun firing at full speed that gets my adrenalin flowing. i watch "blackhawk down" once a week while i'm working (with the video minimized and listening to audio on headphones) just to hear those miniguns at work.


:D :D :D :D

Hahahahaha....

Not to mention the sight of them getting scorched by hot, falling brass!!!

:evil:

I love the sound of brass falling and hitting pavement about as much as (if not more than) I like the sound of the guns!!!

Matrix had some GREAT shots and sounds of falling brass!!!

True though...there's NOTHING like the sound of those miniguns going full-bore....

They sound like the end of all things. (And I guess if you're on the business end of one, it IS the end of all things for you!!! :D )

:what:

:uhoh:

[rock jock]

This is par for the course. Nothing has changed. A number of years ago protesters burned buildings and pelted police and firemen with rocks and bottles. When they did the same thing to a group of armed National Guardsmen, they were shot. Kent State, 1970. To this day, everyone remembers the "murderous brutaility" of the Guardsmen, but no one recalls the violence that precipitated their presence on the campus that day.

These scumbags are simply using the war in Iraq as an excuse to vent their hostility. Their lack of maturity and discipline are a spectacle to us, but a badge of pride among their own. Tibet, apartheid, world trade, capitalism, all good reasons to get high and rowdy at the taxpayers expense. One thing is for sure, they would not get away with this crap in some small town with state CCW. They might not get introduced to the wrong end of a Glock in the first car they stopped, but by the end of the day there would be one or two less human leeches sucking the lifeblood out of our country.

[beemerb]

I wonder watching all of the violence that the peace marchers do,why they don't do it in oh like AZ.Wonder if the reason is that people can carry guns here??????
They jump on,or try to get in my car they are in my mind going to try to carjack it.Its a legal shoot.
Bob

[Jackanape]

Tools for "peaceful protests":

http://www.ktvu.com/news/2056452/detail.html


http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object.cgi?object=/chronicle/pictures/2003/03/21/ba_tools01.jpg&paper=chronicle&file=MN277582.DTL&directory=/c/a/2003/03/21&type=news

Note, the picture from the San Francisco Chronicle (2nd link) doesnt show the knives, brass knuckes, pipes, and stun guns. KTVU showed all of those things on their broadcast last night. What's better, Terrence Hallinan (the D.A.) will likely not prosecute the vermin who are causing mayhem. How great... Organic free range vermin, as far as the eye can see...

[DRC]

Hey there big guy,

Let me tell you something that might make you feel a little better or not. In the state of Texas (where we pick Banjos on the front porch and watch the retarded twins carve their initials in each others feet next to the hound dog according to some) we have CHL (Concelaed Handgun Licensing) availability. Granted you have to take all things into consideration before pulling your firearm and shooting but if protestors were to do this in Texas they would more than likely get shot.

I'm also a CHL instructor and have trained my fair share of License holders. Like I said you have to take all things into consideration but if someone were to start pounding on my car while I was in it the gun would come out. If they then tried to get into the car to get me out of it the gun would be fired. If they were the perpetrator of the act they would be dead. Simple as that. If one fears for ones life (and in situtations like that you never can tell) then one must defend ones self.

This is probably why you don't see that kind of thing in states that have CHL or haven't all but outlawed guns. If you aren't sure whether commiting something like this will get you shot or not people tend to think twice about doing it.

So California could just send the protestors to Texas to do this and we'll see if they still have the gumption :D I can almost guarnatee some of the protestors would get shot if they tried to vandalize a car or drag someone out of it; no ifs, ands' or buts about it.

Well take care and don't stress too much about it. When it's all said and done these folks are gonna be wiping a lot of permanent egg off their faces and I'm going to stand there and watch them do it :)

DRC

[atek3]

Your view of democratic principles is pretty warped if you countenance the use of violence against those who don't agree with you. Sounds like the same way the Brownshirts exercised their view of democracy

Where in my two posts did I support the use of violence against those who don't agree with me.

You sound like you would be one of the protestors. You wouldn't seem to be part of the Sheeple, if you post here.
I wasn't a protestor because a) i think blocking traffic is a stupid tactic. b) I have better things to do with my time and c) I don't want an arrest record.

I don't think you're a troll are you? Or maybe your just an appologist for the Protestors?

I didn't know asking for a little bit deeper thought before breaking out the tear gas and snipers was being an "apologist".




Only a useful Idiot would allow these "Black Bloc'ers" to make you all look bad.
actually several of the people who got back from the protest were quite dejected and didn't return because,
"quite a few of the people there were just jerks looking for excuses to f*ck sh*t up."
If you had the courage of your conviction you would at least help the police stop them. Nope can't do that huh?

After watching your friend get knocked in the head by a rubber truncheon for being in the wrong place by cops who were repeatedly talking about how much they'd love to "crack the heads of those hippies", would YOU help the police? Or how bout watching your friend get dragged across the street by his hair for 'not dispersing'.




If the protestors stayed on the sidewalk, did not block traffic or do anything to others, I couldn't care less. They could protest 'til the cows come home and I don't have a problem.

The minute they interfered with the rights of others, they became criminals and needed to be treated as such. If they behaved like violent criminals, then they should be on the receiving end of whatever force is necessary to stop them. Period.

I Agree entirely!!
Just don't treat all of them like violent criminals for the actions of a few j*rks.


But there are a lot of people who are "legitimately" trying to protest the war. Whether or not you agree with them, you've got to take the good with the bad in a free society, not send in the gunships and start blasting indiscriminately.


Thanks, MK11, at least one voice of sanity here.


These folks are funded by an outside org bent upon subverting the U.S. These folks have no freedom of speech rights once an outside party 'pays' them to do their bidding. Declare them 'enemy combatants' and bury them alive in a big hole somewhere.

Glad we have at least one person here representing the "Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, Hitler" point of view.



Yesterday I witnessed a group of protestors jump on a man's car at the corner of Washington and Motgomery. They broke the car's windshield, and severely dented in the roof (by jumping up and down on it).

Jackanape, I wish I could have been there with you to try and stop those @ssholes, I think perhaps a some OC, CS, could have been applied liberally in such a situation.




What is called for is an 8.5 Richter scale earthquake that would cause "Kalifornia" to break off and sink into the pacific Ocean.

I agree wholeheartedly.


atek3

[Oleg Volk]

Exercise of the rights enumerated in the First Amendment is good. Violating other people's rights, even coincidentally with doing something else (such as protesting some action), should still expose one to civil and/or criminal charges.

Kent State shootup was problematic because the guardsmen fired at bystanders, without properly identifying their targets. Had they fired at those who pelted them with stones, it would have been a forgotten incident by now. As things happend, it was manslaughter or murder.

I wonder what would have happened in a CCW-legal state, assuming any CHL holder would be unlucky enough to get cornered. A few round of pistol ammo would far much less damage than the stampede which would likely follow.

[BowStreetRunner]

If some major city is hit with a terrorist attack while these protestors are out spouting their communist agenda, will they make way for the police and paramedics and firemen to go to the emergency, or will they stay in the middle of the road and chant louder as the police try to get by?
How ironic would it be if terrorists used an anti-war protest to disrupt the police and other first responders?
BSR

[tyme]

Some people always resort to violence when there's a large group they're associated with and the group is being ignored by the government. Right/left/green/red politics, it doesn't matter. They're not protesting violence per se, they're protesting war as a means of enforcing what they see as illegitimate foreign policy. :)

And if some true pacifists are violent, I don't have a philosophical problem with that. There's a place for hypocritical action. Just because someone speaks out against, say, gas-guzzling vehicles doesn't mean that their personal use of an SUV is going to have any significant effect on pollution or on our oil supply.

[jmbg29]

If some major city is hit with a terrorist attack while these protestors are out spouting their communist agenda, will they make way for the police and paramedics and firemen to go to the emergency, or will they stay in the middle of the road and chant louder as the police try to get by?
More likely is that they would flip the emergecy vehicles on their sides and set them ablaze.

As Forrest Gump's mamma used to say, "Vermin is as vermin does".

:fire: :fire: :fire:

[Drjones]

Some people always resort to violence when there's a large group they're associated with and the group is being ignored by the government. Right/left/green/red politics, it doesn't matter. They're not protesting violence per se, they're protesting war as a means of enforcing what they see as illegitimate foreign policy.

That still doesn't make it OK to riot, destroy public property that has NO relation to the issue at hand, as well as to destroy private property and harm innocent civilians.

In this country we have the right to free speech, as well as the right to *peaceably* assemble.

Pulling Joe Blow out of his car and then beating him up and trashing his car because you disagree with our govt. is a crime plain and simple, no more, no less.

And if some true pacifists are violent, I don't have a philosophical problem with that. There's a place for hypocritical action. Just because someone speaks out against, say, gas-guzzling vehicles doesn't mean that their personal use of an SUV is going to have any significant effect on pollution or on our oil supply.

Uh, you don't have a problem with hypocrites?

I'm not trying to say that I'm perfect, nor is anybody.

I'm sure that I have done and said many hypocritical things in my time, but only to an extent.

"Do as I say, not as I do" eh?

:scrutiny:

:rolleyes:

Just like the traitor who fragged his comrades?

I mean, only ONE of our men died....it's not going to have any significant effect on the war...

:rolleyes:

I think you should practice what you preach.

[MeekandMild]

I wonder if anyone could give me a source for the "pulling-out-of-cars-and-beating" stories? Might help convince my better half that she should be carrying now, too. I saw an episode on Fox News, filmed by an overhead helecopter camera, if that helps any.

[atek3]

my friend who was at the protest said, "the only cars that were attacked were those that tried to force their way through the crowd, hitting people in the process." Those cars that did got their tires slashed and their hoods jumped on.

atek3

[Drjones]

my friend who was at the protest said, "the only cars that were attacked were those that tried to force their way through the crowd, hitting people in the process." Those cars that did got their tires slashed and their hoods jumped on.


My, what mature, productive, lawful behavior, befitting of an upstanding citizen!

:rolleyes:

[JoeSF]

Atek, Here is his an interesting article from the Washington Post. You ought to know who oraganized the march against war and capitalism in SF. Did you think it was a peace march? Here is your ANSWER.
http://ads.x10.com/washingtonpost/wap_dtu1_LND272.htm[/url]

Marching With Stalinists

By Michael Kelly
Wednesday, January 22, 2003; Page A15


The left in America has for a long time now resembled not so much a political movement as a contest to see how many schismatics could dance on the head of a pin, a conversation that has gone from being national to factional to simply eccentric. At some point, progressive politics reached a state where freeing Mumia was considered critical and electing a Democratic president was considered optional.

Then came Sept. 11, and the left found itself plunged into a debate on a subject of fundamental importance. And this was a debate in which to be of the left was to be, by definition, involved: In al Qaeda and in the Taliban and in Saddam Hussein's Iraq, liberal civilization faced an enemy that represented nearly every evil that liberalism has ever stood against.

What was the left going to do? A pretty straightforward call, you might say. America has its flaws. But war involves choosing sides, and the American side -- which was, after all, the side of liberalism, of progressivism, of democracy, of freedom, of not chucking gays off rooftops and not stoning adulterers and not whipping women in the town square, and not gassing minority populations and not torturing advocates of free speech -- was surely preferable to the side of the "Islamofascists," to borrow a word from the essayist and former man of the left, Christopher Hitchens.

Which is the point: Hitchens is a former man of the left. In the left's debate, Hitchens insisted that progressives must not in their disdain for America allow themselves to effectively support the perpetuation of despotism, must not betray the left's own values. Others -- notably the political philosopher Michael Walzer, the independent essayist Andrew Sullivan, New Republic writer Jonathan Chait and New York Observer columnist Ron Rosenbaum -- also made this argument with great force and clarity.

The debate is over. The left has hardened itself around the core value of a furious, permanent, reactionary opposition to the devil-state America, which stands as the paramount evil of the world and the paramount threat to the world, and whose aims must be thwarted even at the cost of supporting fascists and tyrants. Those who could not stomach this have left the left -- a few publicly, as did Hitchens and Rosenbaum, and many more, I am sure, in the privacy of their consciences.

Last weekend, the left held large antiwar marches in Washington, San Francisco and elsewhere. Major media coverage of these marches was highly respectful. This was "A Stirring in the Nation," in the words of an approving New York Times editorial, "impressive for the obvious mainstream roots of the marchers."

There is, increasingly, much that happens in the world that the Times feels its readers should be sheltered from knowing. The marches in Washington and San Francisco were chiefly sponsored, as was last October's antiwar march in Washington, by a group the Times chose to call in its only passing reference "the activist group International Answer."

International ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) is a front group for the communist Workers World Party. The Workers World Party is, literally, a Stalinist organization. It rose out of a split within the old Socialist Workers Party over the Soviet Union's 1956 invasion of Hungary -- the breakaway Workers World Party was all for the invasion. International ANSWER today unquestioningly supports any despotic regime that lays any claim to socialism, or simply to anti-Americanism. It supported the butchers of Beijing after the slaughter of Tiananmen Square. It supports Saddam Hussein and his Baathist torture-state. It supports the last official Stalinist state, North Korea, in the mass starvation of its citizens. It supported Slobodan Milosevic after the massacre at Srebrenica. It supports the mullahs of Iran, and the narco-gangsters of Colombia and the bus-bombers of Hamas.

This is whom the left now marches with. The left marches with the Stalinists. The left marches with those who would maintain in power the leading oppressors of humanity in the world. It marches with, stands with and cheers on people like the speaker at the Washington rally who declared that "the real terrorists have always been the United Snakes of America." It marches with people like the former Black Panther Charles Baron, who said in Washington, "if you're looking for an axis of evil then look in the belly of this beast."

The Times' "mainstream" Americans marched last weekend with people who held signs comparing the president and vice president of their country to Hitler, and declaring, "The difference between Bush and Saddam is that Saddam was elected," and this one: "I want you to die for Israel. Israel sings Onward Christian Soldiers."

March on.

[CZ-75]

Where in my two posts did I support the use of violence against those who don't agree with me.


But claiming that the cops should whip out the tear gas, batons and shoot to kill, jesus christ. Sounds like you want to live in a police state. "Sorry sir, your ideas aren't 'patriotic', you're under arrest".

Oh, I don't know. The second quote above makes it sound as though you believe thugs beating people are legitimately protesting.

Glad to hear you clarify your position and make distinctions.

My position hasn't changed. When these folks start pulling folks from their cars, they should be on the receiving end of deadly force.

Technically, that may be "excessive," but I believe that no one should have to take a beating just so these folks don't get their "rights" violated. I'll worry about them sometime well after the rights and persons of honest people are secured.

Violence is a choice, one that has consequences, up to and including death. If they don't want to be killed, then they can choose to remain peaceful.

[Cal4D4]

I have been struggling with appropriate force against groups blocking streets. Best I can come up with is that protected peaceful protest must not block crosswalks when lights change and must keep to sidewalks. If those rules are followed, they are protected by our laws. Even if they burn our flag (grumble) to incite violence. If they are blocking normal passage, they are a mobocracy, trying to dominate and intimidate by force. No one can control the specific actions and direction taken by a mob. Look at Reginald Denny. Is only a mob of black people dangerous? That is profiling and racist. Any mob has resorted to the rule of fang & claw and have waived the right to normal protest protections. You must act in fear of your life, because your survival is at the whim of a lawless, all powerful group. More and more in afflicted areas may choose stronger defensive choices if this silliness continues. It isn't "Tienamen Square" with armed powerful troops in military vehicles. It is a "soccer mommy" with a Suburban full of everything of value in her life at risk to the whims of a mob. They should pay the price. If they keep this up, more will help assure that they do.

[jmbg29]

my friend who was at the protest said, "the only cars that were attacked were those that tried to force their way through the crowd, hitting people in the process." Those cars that did got their tires slashed and their hoods jumped on.If they stand in the road in front of me, and they aren't:

A) Injured and in need of immediate help from a passing car.

B) Legitimately crossing the street in a timely fashion.

C) Some jerk friend of mine screwing around.

They are going to be treated as:

D) A carjacking thug attempting to impede my forward progress for the purpose of dragging me from my vehicle in order to harm me, and potentially take my property.

That behavior will be met by the sound of my truck dropping out of overdrive, and the electronically controlled throttle being engaged.

I will be continuing on my forward course. If they choose to remain in my way, that is their choice, and it will most certainly be their problem. Quite likely a fatal problem at that. Criminals :cuss: with me at their peril.

So, if your "friend" sees a blue Toyota pick-up truck coming, he would do well to GTF out of the way. :fire: :fire: :fire:

[atek3]

My, what mature, productive, lawful behavior, befitting of an upstanding citizen!

If you are refering to the kind of j*rk that would attempt to drive through a crowd ignoring the harm to the people in his way, you are certainly correct. I don't know about you but if a car tried to run me over I'd be kinda upset (although not to the point to destroying the car), just upset enough to get down their license plate numbers.


D) A carjacking thug attempting to impede my forward progress for the purpose of dragging me from my vehicle in order to harm me, and potentially take my property.

Gimme a friggin break. People standing in the streets shouting anti-war slogans are not "carjacking thugs". I hope your little fantasy scenario would be caught on camera.


I will be continuing on my forward course. If they choose to remain in my way, that is their choice, and it will most certainly be their problem. Quite likely a fatal problem at that.

If you are the kind of person that would run someone over in cold blood for disagreeing with you, may you get royally reamed in the ensuing civil case.


atek3

[Drjones]

If you are refering to the kind of j*rk that would attempt to drive through a crowd ignoring the harm to the people in his way, you are certainly correct. I don't know about you but if a car tried to run me over I'd be kinda upset (although not to the point to destroying the car), just upset enough to get down their license plate numbers.

No, I was referring to the actions of the protestors.

You know, those who were slashing tires, jumping on hoods, beating people up, and just rioting in general.

Gimme a friggin break. People standing in the streets shouting anti-war slogans are not "carjacking thugs". I hope your little fantasy scenario would be caught on camera.


:rolleyes:

What color is the sky in your world?

Those people most certainly proved themselves to be "carjacking thugs," and it WAS caught on tape, thank you very much.

Sheesh... :rolleyes:

[Drjones]

Ok, look kid:

You can't deny the fact that the protestors started a small-scale riot.

They DID pull people out of their cars, they DID vandalize and destroy property.

Police DID find quite an array of weapons on these thugs, everything from stun guns, batons, and blades. (Probably even a gun or two I'd imagine, but that's just my conjecture...)

SFPD DID find a bag of molotov cocktails in the bushes.

I ask you, atek: If these people are so "peaceful" and "non-violent" and are not indeed looking to cause trouble, WHY did they have so many weapons and destructive devices on them???

[Nightfall]

Violent protesters should be dealt with through violent means. Those who were not violent shouldn't receive such treatment, even though I think they are deplorable human beings for not interceding. Isn't there some good Samaritan law they could be prosecuted under for not helping? Well... maybe not in SF...:barf:

[fallingblock]

I think you are perhaps misreading what jmbg29 wrote:

****************************************************
If they stand in the road in front of me, and they aren't:

A) Injured and in need of immediate help from a passing car.

B) Legitimately crossing the street in a timely fashion.

C) Some jerk friend of mine screwing around.
****************************************************

You wrote:

****************************************************

Gimme a friggin break. People standing in the streets shouting anti-war slogans are not "carjacking thugs". I hope your little fantasy scenario would be caught on camera.
****************************************************

I suggest that if a group (gang?) of people unlawfully detain you and your vehicle, while threatening you with harm should you attempt to continue on your lawful way via the public street, they could be considered as "carjacking thugs".

They would be by me.:D

[seeker_two]

I wonder what would happen if the anti-American protesters were faced w/ a large group of anti-anti-American protesters who refused to let them access the roads....:evil:

And I wonder if the police would give them the same pass that they're giving the anti-American protesters...:scrutiny:

[DRC]

Protestors blocking a public roadway.

I'm thinking that this would fall under a form of criminal trespass if ordered to vacate by authorities. Once verbal or written notification has been given by authorities and those persons involved do not comply I would think they would then be guilty of some form of criminal trespass at that point. If this is the case then as soon as authorities show up and try to disperse the croud all those in defiance would be criminals. Therefore, when it was said that just because some commit criminal acts doesn't mean they should all be treated as such would be incorrect. At that point they would all be criminals and would be treated accordingly under the law.

As to the scenario of running over an innocent person in cold blood, blocking your way while chanting anti war jargon...Well, I'm afraid that if I had an alternate route I would take that first but if their wasn't an alternate route for me to take and I was trying to get home at the end of the day, I too would be going through the "peaceful" line of protestors as well. I would not intentionally seeks these blockades of people but if it impeded my progress in getting home to my family then yes, I would go through them. Since a car is designed to run on these roadways and the roadways are not designed for sitting in the middle of, if someone got hit by a car and got hurt or died because of it I don't think one could say that the protestor was without fault in this scenario. Pedestrians have the right of way however a large mob gathered in the middle of the street does not fall under the same definition as a pedestrian. In fact if there is no cross walk in the immediate vicinity then it could be classified as J Walking in which case those that did get hit by a car should receive a citation for such once out of the hospital.

I'm not against protestors going out and doing that which they do best, but infringing directly on others lives is inapropriate and illegal. I have no doubt that these same protestors, if protested against in the same manner, would be the first to start screaming about their rights violations due to protests against them. It's sad but at the same time I'm sure it would be true.

Rights are mazing things as are laws. The intresting thing is that they both go hand in hand and yet so many tend to forget this as a matter of convenience and to justify what they are doing. One of these days I hope that these paople grow up enough and get a good education in order to understand this age old concept, but for now I'm afraid many must endure the lack of knowledge in this case as well as the lack of initiative to attain this knowledge.

"Like the sands of the hourglass, so go the days of our lives." :)

DRC

[Cal4D4]

This stuff is always ugly. The riots in the '60s seemed to always yield up 80% people just there for the protest and then a rear echelon of instigators with the rocks, bottles, sling shots, molotov cocktails and whatever. No one can control the actions of a mob. If they just want to peacefully assemble. we have plenty of parks and sidewalks. If they want to be a mob, they are by very definition violent and subject to same. If you don't want to be run down in the street, look both ways before you cross, always cross quickly with the green light and be suspicious of people who tell you to lay down in front of traffic. If you want to be a human shield for someone with a violent agenda, warn the parents who raised you ahead of time so they can start grieving now and achieve closure sooner. The loss of a child has got to be one of the saddest things in life.:(

[atek3]

alright, y'all win. String em up and hang em high.
Time to engage in more productive activities, like taking new people shooting.
atek3

[jmbg29]

Yeah, run away.Gimme a friggin break. People standing in the streets shouting anti-war slogans are not "carjacking thugs". I hope your little fantasy scenario would be caught on camera. I'm not sure what you are saying here.

Which would you and your "friend" enjoy more? Me preventing them from having the upper hand in attacking me, or them succeeding in dragging me out of my truck so they can kick me to death in order to show me how :cuss:ing PEACEFUL!!!!!! THEY ARE?!? :fire: :fire: :fire:

I've had just about enough!

[Jackanape]

atek3 wrote:

my friend who was at the protest said, "the only cars that were attacked were those that tried to force their way through the crowd, hitting people in the process." Those cars that did got their tires slashed and their hoods jumped on.



atek3, from what I saw I'd have to call your friend a pathological liar. The intersection in question had been cleared of protestors prior to the incident. The protestors who had been blocking the intersection had either been cleared off, or arrested by SFPD not fifteen minutes before the whole car wrecking thing took place. The protestors that didn't want to be arrested were on the sidewalks when the intersection was cleared. So, why did this guy get his car trashed? Because the cops left the scene to deal with other problems. The driver of the car had the temerity to try to pass through a clear intersection, and a bunch of vermin came off the sidewalk and trashed his car. No provocation from the driver that I could see (I'm 14 floors up...), but the driver certainly didn't try to ram his way through anything. Nothing but vermin with a chip on their collective shoulder...



atek3 wrote:

Jackanape, I wish I could have been there with you to try and stop those @ssholes, I think perhaps a some OC, CS, could have been applied liberally in such a situation.




Right on atek3! Good to see that we agree on something. Though I tend to prefer chokeholds and armlocks to OC or CS. And I prefer the liberal application of #4 buckshot to all of the above... It's the spirit that counts, right?