[eurohacker]

I was wondering if it's viable to use battle rifles (FAL, AR, AK etc) for sniping?

I do remember the Marine Corps using the M14 as their sniper rifle, but they've accurized it with all kinds of funky stuff, like a free floating barrel and what not.

So, a regular battle rifle with a scope, is it a good idea for a sniper?

I am guessing the answer is probably no, given that snipers generally don't use the same rifles as ordinary riflemen, but you never know.

I guess it comes down to what kind of range you desire.

I guess one area where a battle rifle with a scope is a good idea is for a squad dedicated marksman/sharpshooter. This would be like the missing link between a rifleman and a sniper. I think the russians implement this, to give their squads a little extra range.

How accurate can the AK47 be made with a scope?

What are your opinions?

[Henry Bowman]

Ar-15s are commonly used for long range target shooting. The so-called D.C. "snipers" a few years ago used an AR-15 for thier antics.

[dolanp]

Like you said, it depends on range. None of those rifles are going to be right for a 1000yd shot, so there are special rifles made for that kind of thing.

Most AKs are not inherently accurate enough to be a 'sniper' weapon really.

[eurohacker]

Let's say the range is 600 meters? Would a FAL with a scope do the job?

[George S.]

Aren't the current crop of US military sniper rifles either custom made by the military or an accurized vesion of the M-14? They used to use a version of the Remington Model 700 as a sniper rifle.

The caliber and bullet weight would have to play an important role in shots over long distances. A round like the .308 should have more power behind it at really long ranges compared to 5.56mm or the 7.62x39. Isn't the military sniper round a custom load?

[NoViuM]

I believe military rifles have a larger chamber than that of sniper rifles. How a bullet sits in the chamber and distance to the lands is important for accuracy. Sniper rifles usually have smaller and non rifled chambers to keep the bullet sitting the same way every time. You sacrofice accuracy this way. The russian army doesn't dispatch snipers in the way that we think of snipers. They have designated sharpshooters that use Dragunovs 7.62x54 semi-auto rifles. Based on the AK action it has a longer barrel and is reworked for enguaging targets out to 800 meters I think. AK with a scope is dumb. The rifle wasn't made for enguaging targets out past around 100 yards. It probably could be acurized as Robarms has with a reciever from a squad light machine gun (RPK) reciever, but you're trading rifle agility for weight of a heavier reciever and barrel. Most acurising consists of heavier and longer barrel, not something you want on a light agile battle rifle. Just putting a scope on something doesn't make it more acurate.

[Sergeant Sabre]

I do remember the Marine Corps using the M14 as their sniper rifle...

The primary weapon of our snipers is the M40a3 rifle. It's a bolt-action.

http://www.forcerecon.com/images/strong/27bw.jpg

Our squad designated marksmen have an M-14 available, called the "DMR" (Designated Marksman's Rifle)

http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/marines/z_usmc05.jpg

I don't know of any standard-issue rifle used as the primary weapon of a sniper. Although not ideal, it could fill the role in some situations.

[Zak Smith]

Semi-automatic rifles used in Marksman or Snipers roles by US Forces include: the M16/AR15 in various forms (e.g. DMR, SPR); the M14; the SR-25. The AR-10 is also in use by US contractors and may be in use by US Forces.

The TA31 ACOG is being issue to US Forces in huge numbers; this is effectively your "standard issue battle rifle issued with a scope."

-z

[Commissar Gribb]

accurized M14 + bipod + scope = M21 sniper rifle ;)

[Travis McGee]

The US Secret Service is dropping bolt guns and going to a gas gun which will probably be a Stoner SR-25 or similar. The USMC is trying to get as many SR-25s as possible. SEALs and Special Forces use all of the SR-25s they can get as sniper rifles.

Why? Follow up shots. The era of the two day stalk in a ghillie suit to get a "one shot one kill" is coming to an end. Today snipers are primarily a very heavily tasked urban warrior. He goes out with a 4 to 6 man team, not alone. (The rest must secure the building he is using as a shooting location, and of course, one is is spotter.)

The bolt guns simply don't keep up with current urban warfare as it is happening in Iraq. Working the bolt as 3 or 4 bad guys scramble for cover at 300-800 yards just is not cutting it. With a very accurate gas gun, you can keep the crosshairs on multiple enemy from shot to shot.

Even the USSS has recognized this. The question is: if you can get 1/3 MOA from a five or six shot bolt gun, or 1/2 MOA from a 20 shot SR-25, is that tiny edge in accuracy worth it?

NO is the answer. It's not. Imagine you are a USSS counter sniper high over the President. A van pulls up and ten terrorists jump out, overwhelming the ground security elements. Do you want to be 300 yards away, in your perch, working a bolt and reloading? While jihad commandos rush at the President, the way the killers of Sadat did?

No way. You need accuracy, but you also need speed and lots of bullets in these kinds of scenarios.

The current feedback going to the USMC Scout Sniper school is that the training is all wrong for today's combat. Spending months at Pendleton learning to stalk through the boonies has nothing to do with current sniper employment. In fact, they have sent over plenty of snipers who failed the stalking portion of the course at Pendleton. They need the shooters! And the snipers in Iraq say that the stalking in the boonies training is of no value anyway. They are currently reevaluating the weapons and tactics of USMC Scout Sniper training and employment from top to bottom.

Viet Nam is over, say today's snipers. Train us for urban combat, not a three day boonie stalk with a bolt gun. Give us gas guns so we can kill more enemy before they reach cover. That's what today's snipers are saying.

Plus, in urban combat, the Scout Sniper can become another grunt in a heartbeat, just by going around a corner. Being stuck with a bolt gun is a big liability when suddenly confronted by ten bearded madmen with AK-47s at 100 feet range. That's another common situation where the 20 shot gas gun in .308/7.62 totally outshines the M-40.

The SR-25 as used by Special Forces and SEALs comes standard with a free floating quad pic rail. Putting on a night scope without loss of zero is a snap. IR lasers for spotting and designating targets igives the modern sniper another capability. Heavy ordnance can use the snipers IR laser dot for an aiming point.

Except for increasingly rare circumstances (the three day feild stalk) the day of the M-40 bolt gun is over. The snipers want gas guns like the SR-25. If that can't reach the enemy, they want a .50 caliber.

Matt

http://tomeaker.com/2a/snakelogoavataryellow4.jpg

[obiwan1]

D.C. sniper :what: Their longest shot was less than 50 yards! Don't think of them as snipers.

I think an AK would be a good close/medium distance weapon. Put a red dot sight and a decent stock on it and I'd buy one!

At MCRD Parris Island in 1969, part of our qual was 10 shots at 500 yards (or meters, I really don't remember) with an issue gun (M14) with stock peep sights. Many of us shot possibles and the remainder only dropped a point or two at that range.

For any kind of prescision work at medium-long distances (up to 1000 yards) give me a good bolt gun (25 cal or higher) with good scope. Any kind of a decent marksman (Parris Island grads.....) would do really well. :D

[DarthBubba]

Shot a tricked out M-14 recently,

I had the pleasure of shooting a tricked out M-14 recently it had all the bells and whistles,
Trigger job, floated heavy barrel, bedded action all of the goodies with a really nice kahles scope.
The owner was a retired Marine and he had done all of the work himself.
Now the really amazing part is that with his hand loads even I was able to hit decent groups out past 800 yards which is farther that I have ever shot that type of rifle before, and his hands the 1000 yard mark was no problem.
I guess my point is that a good armorer can make an M-14 that really kicks rearend.

DarthBubba :evil:

[El Tejon]

euro, don't the snipers in your nation's army still use the AK-5? Nothing wrong with the AK system as a sniper weapon.

[Father Knows Best]

The FAL and AK platforms don't have enough inherent accuracy potential for really long range work (and the standard AK rounds aren't ballistically up to the task). Among MBR's, the AR and M1 platforms are the best suited, as lots of work has been done over the years to developing them for high accuracy. You can find or build sub-MOA AR's and M1A's pretty easily and inexpensively.

The other possibility is the G3 (HK91). In my experience, it's not as easy to build a sub-MOA from a G3 platform as it is from an AR or M1A platform, but it can be done much easier than starting from an FAL or AK platform.

In my safe, I have a DSA SA58 (FAL in .308), Arsenal SA M7 (AK in 7.62x39) and a PTR-91 (HK91 in .308). The PTR-91 was by far the most accurate out of the box. I've built it up as my medium to long range rifle, and it will easily outshoot the other two at anything over 250 yards. It also handles heavier bullets much better, which is better for maintaining energy and bucking the wind. It's not the best choice for close in work, though. The SA M7 would be my first choice for 0-100 yards, and the FAL for up 100-250.

[benEzra]

A good AK with a scope and good ammunition can do perhaps 2.5 MOA (2.5 arcminutes). A good sniper rifle will do under 1 MOA dispersion.

A more serious problem for use of the 7.62x39mm as any sort of long-range weapon is the low muzzle velocity, which gives it a trajectory that approximates the shape of a rainbow at long range. It also lacks the power for long-distance shooting, and the relatively lightweight, draggy bullet doesn't help.

The U.S. Department of Defense considers 400 meters to be the maximum effective range for an actual military (full-auto) AK-47, and that's allowing for bursts to increase hit probability. I own a civilian AK lookalike, and even with a scope I'd say 400 meters is probably a bit optimistic except under the most ideal conditions. 300 meters, maybe, but the bullet still has less than half the energy of a .308/7.62x51mm at that range.

The U.S. military does use accurized M16's as "designated marksman rifles," sort of like how the Russians use the Dragunov, but that is not really a true sniper role according to the U.S. definition of the term. AR-15's (civilian non-automatic counterpart to M16) are extremely popular for long-range target competition here in the U.S., but they are generally accurized a bit. Also, for military use the 5.56x45mm doesn't have all that much energy left at 1000 meters.

BTW, the D.C.-area "snipers" (the two clowns that went around shooting people from the trunk of a car) did all of their shooting at point-blank range, 100 yards max and in some cases much closer than that.

[Bobarino]

the H&K PSG-1 and SRT-9 are both very accurate rifles designed for sniper duty but based on the G3/91. spendy little buggers though. at $10k a pop, the PSG-1 is an awfully exspensive battle rifle, but it would work in both roles.

Bobby

[eurohacker]

El Tejon: I didn't know the Swedish army had snipers :)

[AK103K]

Their longest shot was less than 50 yards! Don't think of them as snipers.
I think anything, even the lowly .22, can be used effectively as a "sniper" rifle. Who says you have to shoot someone a mile away to be a sniper? Perhaps we should be calling what are being called "sniper rifles" here, "long range precision rifles" instead. Or does that deflate the ego's of the "snipers" ? :)

[The Viking]

euro, don't the snipers in your nation's army still use the AK-5? Nothing wrong with the AK system as a sniper weapon.
I believe the snipers use the Accuracy International L96A1 AW. Marksmen use AK4 rifles (H&K G3) I believe. Hemvärnet (National Guard sort of) use it too. Until the locks they provide have busted all the weapons permanently.

[Father Knows Best]

Bobarino:the H&K PSG-1 and SRT-9 are both very accurate rifles designed for sniper duty but based on the G3/91. spendy little buggers though. at $10k a pop, the PSG-1 is an awfully exspensive battle rifle, but it would work in both roles.

Yup. and don't forget the MSG-90, which is also on the same platform.

That's my point, though. the G3/91 platform is capable of excellent accuracy, as is the 7.62x51 cartridge. Even if you can't afford a PSG-1 (and not many of us can), you can start with a good 91 or clone (like the PTR-91) for under a grand and modify it to achieve darn near PSG-1 accuracy. You'll still end up spending more than you probably would have on an AR or M1A/M14 platform, but you'll get there.

[The Grand Inquisitor]

I just wanted to correct some things from Novium's post that were very wrong.

First off, he is correct that the Soviet philosophy behind designated marksmen/snipers is different than the American system, but he is very wrong about the capabilities of the the AK beyond 100 yards.

My ex-girlfriend is Romanian, and,of course, her father was in the military, and I've learned alot from him about the way that the Romanians deployed marksmen (their system was very similar to the way the Russians and everyone else in the CCCP).

The Romanians did use the SVD's (Dragunov's) for a while, but then they switched over the the PSL/ROMAK-3 that was developed at RATMIL. When RATMIL was designing the PSL they weren't sure on what cartridge to use, so they made models in 7.62x54R (naturally), 7.62x51, and even some in 30.06. Some people have said there are 7.62x39 models, but I've never seen one and it doesn't really fit with the use of the rifle to use a regular infantry cartridge.

While the basic AK-47 may not be the best designated marksman weapon, a capable shooter can make reliably accurate shots (3-4.5 MOA) out to 300 yards; I would say a good shooter could make the same shots out to 400 yards or so with an AK-74 on 5.45. On the other hand, a good shooter with a PSL should be able to make quality shots out to 500 yards with 7.62x54R ammo, and that is exactly what the marksmen were expected to do. Also, as a side note - SVD's could probably make accurate shots out to 600 yards as they are closer to traditional "sniper" rifles than PSL's, but the Chinese NDM-86 in 7.62x51 is close to the M14 in its accuracy potential.

The way Romanian marksmen were deployed was to have a few marksmen in every infantry group and they were expected to take out targets that were between 300 and 400 yards out (targets regular infantry troops would have a hard time with). The amazing thing here is that they were expected to take these shots from "quick" positions, and Mihai (her father) said that this was usually done standing or sitting.

[Commissar Gribb]

Shot a tricked out M-14 recently,

I had the pleasure of shooting a tricked out M-14 recently it had all the bells and whistles,
Trigger job, floated heavy barrel, bedded action all of the goodies with a really nice kahles scope.
The owner was a retired Marine and he had done all of the work himself.
Now the really amazing part is that with his hand loads even I was able to hit decent groups out past 800 yards which is farther that I have ever shot that type of rifle before, and his hands the 1000 yard mark was no problem.
I guess my point is that a good armorer can make an M-14 that really kicks rearend.

DarthBubba

I dont consider it fully tricked out unless it's an NFA M14 ;)

[Ian]

How accurate can the AK47 be made with a scope?

A scope doesn't actually make a rifle any more accurate, nor does it have any effect on a shooter's hold or trigger press. Scopes magnify a target, thus allowing a shooter to fire at something he/she otherwise could not see, and allow the shooter to align two object (reticle and target) rather than three (rear sight, front sight, and target). That's all. Unless a shooter can't properly align iron sights, a scope will make no difference in how accurately they can fire a given rifle.

[Crosshair]

As a Designated Marksman rifle, they would work just fine for the task required. The Russians recognised this years ago with their SVD designated marksman rifle. Doing the same with a run of the mill FAL or such would be a good idea. Slap a better barrel on it, put on a good scope, tune it a bit, and Viola, a designated marksman rifle. Accurate enough for 98% of real world situations.

[AZ Jeff]

I had the pleasure of shooting a tricked out M-14 recently it had all the bells and whistles,
Trigger job, floated heavy barrel, bedded action all of the goodies with a really nice kahles scope.


FYI for several who have posted in this thread, the M-14, when configured for maximum accuracy, does NOT employ a "floated" barrel. The AMU methodology for creating maximum accuracy involves bedding the rifle such that the barrel has constant downward tension on it, induced by the stock/forearm.

[Trebor]

I interviewed an instructor at the Army Sniping School at Ft Benning last year. He told me some of the same things Matt (Travis McGee) said in his post. Listen to Matt, he knows what he's talking about.

Current U.S. sniper doctrine is set up for Vietnam era engagements. The doctrine and training are in the middle of a transformation to be more suitable for urban warfare. To give a couple examples, currently there is no training given on how to set up a sniper hide in a city or how to compensate for the "wind tunnel" effects nearby tall buildings have on the trajectory of the bullet.

The next general issue Sniper weapon is probably going to be an AR variant in 7.62 Nato. The 5.56 M-16/M-4's with accuracy tuning, ACOG's (or other low powered optics) will become more prevelant as Squad Designated Marksmans's Rifles.

The M-14 is on it's way out as a Sniper or Designated Marksmans Weapon. There is no logistical support for the weapon and there are no school trained armorers in this weapon. The weapons operation and field maintainence requirements are different from those of the standard infantry weapons. As the AR in 7.62 comes on line, the M-14's will be pulled. Parts and maintaince issues will have sent many of them off the field by then anyway.

[Mr. Loud Guns]

Over in Iraq the primary sniper rifle of the marines is the barrett m82 special applications scoped rifles. PS : any rifle that is under 1moa is not considered a sniper rifle. :scrutiny: MOST sniper rifles are under 1/2 moa accuracy. Russia uses a 22lr rifle as a sniper rifle S?? 99. Most sniper rifles are in .308 while most police remington 700 pss are in .223. Now days with the needs of the long distance shooter in mind the 50bmg rifle round is becoming the primary sniper cartridge. My 50 bmg can easily due -1moa

[Zak Smith]

while most police remington 700 pss are in .223.
Cite.

any rifle that is under 1moa is not considered a sniper rifle. MOST sniper rifles are under 1/2 moa accuracy.
Please cite the accuracy standards for a variety of issued sniper rifles, before claiming this.

[Burt Blade]

"Sniper" is a skill set, not a weapon.

It is far more about stalking than shooting. Snipers tend to do more damage with a good radio, allowing them to "snipe" with a Hellfire missile, 155mm artillery barrage, or a flight of F-15Es ands their 2000-pound smart bombs.

Rifles are not "sniper", unless used by a person with such skills. Granted, a sniper is more effective with a good precision rifle, but a sniper is almost as deadly with an issue infantry weapon.

Now imagine if we told every Infantryman, "You hold in your hands a fine precision rifle, capable of hitting any man-sized target at ranges exceeding 600 meters. We will teach you how to hit an enemy at that range, each and every time you pull the trigger. You will control any place you can see, and kill any enemy you see.

An issue M-16 in good shape, using decent ammunition, that holds the usual 1.5 - 2 MOA can hit a 12 inch circle at 600m, every time. That is more than enough to bag an enemy soldier (or terrorist nincompoop).

All it takes is a good instructor and a willing student. Once you master a good trigger press and the art of estimating wind effects, _any_ decent shooter can do this. An army of such "marksmen", accompanied by some sniper teams, is going to go through an urban enemy stronghold like crap through a goose.

[eurohacker]

Are you sure the .223 has enough power left when it's there?

[eurohacker]

It would seem foolish to dismantle the old school sniper program altogether. There will always be a need for the Carlos Hathcocks :)

Rather, I think they should shrink it down and funnel most people into a dedicated urban marksman program or something like that. Or make the sniper program an add-on course to that, for the real hardcore people.

[Blackhawk 6]

The challenge when redesigning any training program is to not only make it relevant to the problems of today, but the problems of tomorrow as well. This is not a problem unique to Sniper School. In 1995, the U.S. Army Ranger School dropped the Desert Phase because it was costly and unecessary. Oops!

Turning the U.S. Army Sniper School into an urban sniper school would be an enormous mistake. Admittedly, graduates of the course are not fully prepared to operate in an urban environment and this needs to be addressed.

However, to disregard stalking as "a thing of the past" is foolish. There may indeed be a requirement to have snipers who are capable of operating independantly and who can stalk their target. Afghanistan is ripe for independant sniping missions, but commanders' lack of confidence in their sniper teams, often well founded, prevents them from being employed in that fashion.

Suppose, for example, 10 or 15 years from now we begin committing large numbers of troops to Columbia in an escalation of the War on Drugs. As the environment is similar to Vietnam, our military what look at what worked well and not so well in Vietnam. Snipers were clearly an effective tool and will likely be required to perform the same "stalk and shoot" mission that are no being declared obsolete. We will be redesigning the course again, and finding old retired snipers to explain the "old" ways to us. Bad business. Korea could be another venue where sniping requirements may differ from those of today.

I believe the proper answer is to add an urban operations block to the existing course. I would expect a week would be sufficient. Some commanders with have been supplementing their snipers training in a similar fashion for years. In the mid-90's, mine sent two of my snipers to train on urban sniping with the USSS.
Are you sure the .223 has enough power left when it's there?
The 5.56mm does not have a lot of energy at 600 meters but it has more than enough to kill someone.

[Sergeant Sabre]

Over in Iraq the primary sniper rifle of the marines is the barrett m82 special applications scoped rifles...Russia uses a 22lr rifle as a sniper rifle...Now days with the needs of the long distance shooter in mind the 50bmg rifle round is becoming the primary sniper cartridge

A rifle that is five feet long and weighs 30 pouns is not the primary weapon of a USMC scout sniper. As noted in the nomenclature of the weapon, it is a special application rifle.

.22lr? :scrutiny:

I'm no Sniper myself, but I have served in Iraq, and I know that much of the action there is MOUT (urban). It would make sense to me that many shots are indeed relatively short in such a compact terrain. It would also make sense that, in such terrain, a giant .50BMG rifle would be far less than ideal.

The more I think about it, the more I can see the application of a semi-automatic rifle in such an environment.



PS : any rifle that is under 1moa is not considered a sniper rifle. :scrutiny: MOST sniper rifles are under 1/2 moa accuracy.........My 50 bmg can easily due -1moa

Despite the assertion regarding MOA requirements, I find it hard to believe that your .50 is insufficient for precision shooting at long range. 1moa = a 10" group at 1000 yards. Not too shabby, considering more realistic (shorter) yardages and that the types of targets the .50 excels at engaging (vehicles, other material targets) are usually pretty big.

[Crosshair]

Sergeant Sabre

.22lr? :scrutiny:

As crazy as it sounds the Russians DO have a 22LR sniper rifle. It is called the SV-99, it is a suppressed, straight pull bolt action rifle. It has proved quite effective in combat where stealth is more important than range.

SV-99 Sniper Rifle (http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn57-e.htm)

Anyone know if they import them to the US. :D

[VG]

The Army and Marine Corps have grueling training courses for snipers. The Army course regularly fails out 50% of the class.

Sniper rifles are bolt action 7.62 rifles. The Army and USMC use different models but they are similar in specification. American Rifleman tests of the out-of-the-box Army rifle yielded 1.5" groups at 300 meters with the military Match ammo.

Both the Army and Marine Corps are also using the .50 cal Barrett. The new Stryker Brigades have a Sniper team at the Battalion level organized so they deploy as two man 7.62 teams or 3 man .50 cal teams.

Now here's where it gets interesting. For urban sniping (usually 300 meters but many targets) the bolt rifles were found unnecessary and demand for a semi-auto like the M14 increased. There were two versions of the M14 sniper rifle, but with unit funds and aftermarket parts many units updated their M14's to be used more as a "Designated Marksman" role.

In the Army only infantrymen can be snipers. But there were pictures and news articles released early in the conflict about a Cavalry "sniper" who killed 7 Iraqis in a week with an M14 equipped with optical sights. But he isn't a "Sniper" officially and didn't have an official "Sniper" rifle.

The Army also has a role called Designated Marksman but he is usually equipped with an M4 Carbine, not the M14.

[Mr. Loud Guns]

Where I had that annoying - mark before the 1moa please ignore that on my previous post :o

[Sergeant Sabre]

SV-99 Sniper Rifle

Fascinating. I suppose it may have an application. Perhaps inconspicuously downing sentries before a raid or something.

I wonder if it saw any action...

[artherd]

My Barrett M82A1 is a fantastic gun, but it will do 1.5MOA tops. On a good day.

It will still mess the heck up a vehicle at 1,000+yds, but it is not what I would call a 'precision' rifle. Rather, it makes up for that with API rounds carrying ~14,000lb/ft of energy.

No, if I were going after people, I would grab my Armalite AR-30 .338 Lapua Mag (1/2MOA bolt gun.)

Stoner SR-25 in .308 makes a mighty fine 1/2MOA gas gun. Issue the crap out of 'em I say!!!

[RevDisk]

Current U.S. sniper doctrine is set up for Vietnam era engagements. The doctrine and training are in the middle of a transformation to be more suitable for urban warfare. To give a couple examples, currently there is no training given on how to set up a sniper hide in a city or how to compensate for the "wind tunnel" effects nearby tall buildings have on the trajectory of the bullet.

Yep. We're having a bit of problems in that area. Thankfully, long distance shooting in MOUT is slightly more rare. With urban 'sniping', speed is rather important. Accuracy is good, but if you're not quick, you're not getting a second chance.

Standing in the middle of a street rather than against any wall takes some getting used to. "Wind tunnel" effect, as you say.


The next general issue Sniper weapon is probably going to be an AR variant in 7.62 Nato. The 5.56 M-16/M-4's with accuracy tuning, ACOG's (or other low powered optics) will become more prevelant as Squad Designated Marksmans's Rifles.

The M-14 is on it's way out as a Sniper or Designated Marksmans Weapon. There is no logistical support for the weapon and there are no school trained armorers in this weapon. The weapons operation and field maintainence requirements are different from those of the standard infantry weapons. As the AR in 7.62 comes on line, the M-14's will be pulled. Parts and maintaince issues will have sent many of them off the field by then anyway.

M24 (basically a Rem 700BDL) has been the US Army standard sniper rifle since 1987. The M21 is the US Army designated marksman rifle since 1971. Both work extremely well. The M21 is based off the M14, but they are not the exact same weapon. The M21 was updated in 1991 and is now called the M25.

FYI, there is indeed logistical support for the M21/M25, as well as armourers. The M25 for instance uses a McMillan M2A bedded stock. I'm fairly sure McMillan is still in business, but I might be wrong. Springfield Armory used to maintain the M21/M25 family, but I'm not sure if they still do. All the M21/M25's I've seen were worked over by civilian contractors.


Over in Iraq the primary sniper rifle of the marines is the barrett m82 special applications scoped rifles...Russia uses a 22lr rifle as a sniper rifle...Now days with the needs of the long distance shooter in mind the 50bmg rifle round is becoming the primary sniper cartridge

The M107 is not a replacement for the M25 nor the M24. It has other applications, but can (and is) be used as a sniper rifle if the situation arises. One of the more common uses is disposing of UXO and such by EOD teams.

The Marines use the M40A3. It's a Rem 700 worked over by armorers at Quantico.

any rifle that is under 1moa is not considered a sniper rifle. MOST sniper rifles are under 1/2 moa accuracy.

Off hand, I remember the M24 as having a book accuracy of 1 MOA with M118 ammo.

(Yes, it can have superior accuracy with commercial match grade ammo, maybe pushing it under 1/2 moa. Assuming your ammo supply guy can order civvie ammo.)


In the Army only infantrymen can be snipers. But there were pictures and news articles released early in the conflict about a Cavalry "sniper" who killed 7 Iraqis in a week with an M14 equipped with optical sights. But he isn't a "Sniper" officially and didn't have an official "Sniper" rifle.

The Army also has a role called Designated Marksman but he is usually equipped with an M4 Carbine, not the M14.

Erm. Technically, no. Sniper school is open to anyone holding an MOS of 11B, 11M, or 18 series. If I remember correctly, it doesn't have to be their current MOS, they just have to be qual'd. They might have changed that, I heard some discussion about making the MOS waiverable but I haven't heard of any changes.

The M14 with scope is the M21 or M25. It is the official "designated marksman rifle". And yes, designated marksmen can be issued M21's or M25's. Bit obvious, that.

[Mr. Loud Guns]

I always wanted one of those ar-30's in .338.

[Carnitas]

I dont see why it has to be an all or nothing deal.

It makes sense to me that in basic training, recruits with unusual skill with the rifle be culled into a some extra marksmanship training and issued a lightly tuned and scoped AR that would turn them into the squads Designated Marksman or whatever you want to call them. The DM's that pan out in a line unit get sent to a "Sniper" school that would school them on the special weapons (M25's, 50's etc) and equip them with a well rounded but basic set stalking and urban sniper/mount skills. That would probably be 95% of what the military needs in this tactical role. I small handfull of guys could be trained further for the final 5% of uber-Hathcock long stalk, or long urban type of shooting mission.

[Dr. J Frame]

The AR-10 is also in use by US contractors and may be in use by US Forces. Locally, DPMS now has a military contract being filled for their LR .308 AR rifle. Management says they are currently seeing Middle-East service. Branch unknown, but the guy was former 3rd Group SF and said "we are now deploying...". I'm guessing it's Army or he probably wouldn't have said "we".
http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/images/RFA2-308.jpg