[fletcher]

(Didn't see this posted yet)

I know there are a few other Scouts/Scouters on this board, and would just like to give a heads up on the ACLU vs. DoD thing concerning funding of the BSA, namely the Jamborees held every 4 years.

Story Here (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,161881,00.html)

Judge: Pentagon Can't Fund Scout Jamboree
Thursday, July 07, 2005

CHICAGO — A federal judge has ruled the Pentagon can no longer spend millions in government money to ready a Virginia military base for a national Boy Scout event typically held every four years, the American Civil Liberties Union (search) announced Thursday.

U.S. District Judge Blanche Manning's June 22 order stems from a 1999 lawsuit by the ACLU of Illinois that claimed the Defense Department (search) sponsorship violates the First Amendment because the Scouts require members to swear an oath of duty to God.

Justice Department spokesman Charles Miller said Thursday the government was still considering its options.

The order doesn't cover this year's National Scout Jamboree (search), which start July 25 and is expected to draw more than 40,000 people to the Army's Fort A.P. Hill in Virginia.

A Scouts spokesman said he expects the Pentagon's lawyers to appeal.

"We are confident that an appeal to the 7th Circuit will return everything to the status quo," Bob Bork said.

ACLU of Illinois spokesman Ed Yohnka said no other youth organization receives millions of dollars in government support, and that the injunction is the latest step toward ending the Scouts' unfair advantage.

The Defense Department notified the Chicago federal court in April that it would support this summer's jamboree, despite a ruling by Manning in March that the department's aid was unconstitutional. The government argued at the time that the ruling wasn't final.

The government aid, which amounted to $6 million and $8 million respectively for the jamborees in 1997 and 2001, was used to transport military personnel and other goods there, according to Manning's March order. The government expected to pay about $7.3 million for this year's jamboree.

Jamboree activities include archery, biking, a confidence course, environmental conservation programs and kayaking, according to the Scouts' Web site.

The Rev. Eugene Winkler, a Methodist minister who is one of the plaintiffs in the case, said he got involved because he did not agree with the use of taxpayer money to support the Scouts.

"We're not attacking the Scouts and neither is the ACLU," Winkler said. "This issue is not about the Boy Scouts at all. It's about government funding for religious purposes. It's about separation" of church and state.

[taliv]

much as i like the boy scouts, the government should not be funding them. however, that has nothing to do with religion or separation of church/state.

[Frandy]

What Taliv said! +1

[Rockrivr1]

I attended one of those Jamborees when I was a kid back in the 70s. It was one of the best adventures of my young life. We camped with the troops, got to use their facilities and the best part was climbing all over the tanks, trucks etc. When our bus drove onto the base a group of Tanks swung across the road right in front of us. Awesome!!!

I can honestly say that I have absolutely no problem with the government spending this money. I don't care what the ACLU, Church Ministers Etc have to say. This is directed against the Scouts. Church and State, my butt.

The government will spend this money somewhere. Why not spend it on something our youth will utterly enjoy and learn from.

[mzmtg]

much as i like the boy scouts, the government should not be funding them. however, that has nothing to do with religion or separation of church/state.

Ditto, and ditto.

[Evil_Ed]

The government will spend this money somewhere. Why not spend it on something our youth will utterly enjoy and learn from.

Rockrivr1,
That statement is used by everyone for every bit of governemnt spending. It does NOT justify stealing money from one person to give to another. That excuse costs us more money every year than anything else. Add up all those little "Well the government is going to spend it somewhere anyway" programs and I bet we could take a big dent out of our national debt by dumping them.

Edited to add:

The Scouts and any other groups should do what the SCA and the Civil War re-enactors do, charge a fee to attend and use the fees to pay expenses. It works fine for many other groups and spread out over the large number that attend the events it amounts to a relatively small amount of money per person.

[CannibalCrowley]

I know there are a few other Scouts/Scouters on this board, and would just like to give a heads up on the ACLU vs. DoD thing concerning funding of the BSA, namely the Jamborees held every 4 years.I remember having a discussion about it quite a while back, but couldn't find it using the search function. It was probably a Roundtable thread.

The BSA had a choice and now they can descriminate aganist whoever they want; but they have to live with the consequences.

[Flyboy]

Gotta go with taliv and Evil_Ed on this one. However, Ed, I would inform you that there is a fee associated with the trip--when I went, it was about $600 per scout, though that also included our transportation (from Dayton, OH).

I'm sure we can work out a way to reimburse the Army for its expenses; somebody also needs to mention that the way the Army supports the Jamboree gives them some opportunity to practice large-group logistics. We pay for it, they get free training. Everybody wins.

--Flyboy, Eagle Scout, 1993 Jamboree attendee

[Henry Bowman]

Would the ACLU object if the miltary supported a NAMBLA jamboree? I doubt it, also. :rolleyes:

[Master Blaster]

The Military should be allowed to fund this event,

The Boy Scouts was founded by Lord Baden-Powell an Englishman in 1909 IIRC its purpose was to provide military training like Marksmanship, Hiking, Camping, wilderness survival craft, swimming etc., to children who lived in Urban areas. The purpose was to provide them with military training and survival skills that they did not get at home or in school. Baden-Powell was a soldier and felt that the British military was suffering from poor quality troops because the Urban nature of society was not preparing youth for military service.

The Boyscouts is a non-profit paramilitary organization which makes it fun to learn basic military skills, and gives many needy inner city youth the only chance they have to go to summer camp, camp out, do archery and boating and learn to swim. It teaches responsibility, and emphasises Community Service. I never saw the ACLU helping out at the local old age home, or collecting money for needy children to buy christmas presents, or cleaning up a park. Did You?????

The Jamboree is an excellent opportunity for the military to recruit future soldiers and for the boyscouts to see and camp on a large military base and perhaps consider joining ROTC.

The Seperation of Church and state??????? I was a scout and the troop I belonged to was Non-denominational, I dont recall ever praying at a camp out or a meeting, and I went to a number of regional camporees one of which was on a national guard base.

[Rockrivr1]

Evil_Ed I agree with you that if we could get the government to stop spending a few million here and a few million there we'd be much better off in our budgetary problems. The reality is though that if the government cuts a program such as this, that money will get ear marked somewhere else. While it might not be the best thing in regards to fiscal responsibility, there are many underfunded projects, initiatives and programs where that money will most likely end up.

I would really hate to tell the thousands of Boy Scouts who attend this function that they will not get the funding because the Government was forced to not to spend it due to a lawsuit. Those parents pay taxes same as everyone else. Why shouldn't their kids who are Scouts get something out of that money.

Until we figure out a way to force our govening body to stop spending money like it's water we will have this spending problem. I'd rather the scouts get it then some study on why the horny toad is becoming extinct or some other such other nonesense. You think I jest? Take a look at some of the screwy things our government gives money out for.

Who was it that said revolution is not such a bad thing? It's the only way I see the low and middle class folks can take back the government. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.

[dolanp]

Bet the ACLU wouldn't object if it was the Young Black Gay Muslim Scouts of America.

[pwolfman]

U.S. District Judge Blanche Manning's June 22 order stems from a 1999 lawsuit by the ACLU of Illinois that claimed the Defense Department (search) sponsorship violates the First Amendment because the Scouts require members to swear an oath of duty to God.

Wait until the ACLU gets around to the fact that the ARMY(and the other services as well) swears an oath to God as well... :rolleyes:

pwolfman

[Kharn]

The last time I visited the Jamboree, the longest lines were to look at all the military equipment and talk with the soldiers standing near-by.

Kharn

[Master Blaster]

Ever testified in Court or served on a Jury?????????

"For the record state your name"

"Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you GOD"

When will this be ruled unconstitutional????????

[Augustwest]

Separation/Not Separation - I don't give a rat's patoot. It is a socialist outrage that taxpayer money is being used to fund a campout for a private group.

Oh, and I don't believe there's a requirement to swear to god when taking the stand...I'm pretty sure an affirmation instead of an oath is acceptable.

[CannibalCrowley]

I never saw the ACLU helping out at the local old age home, or collecting money for needy children to buy christmas presents, or cleaning up a park. Did You?????Nope, of course I've never heard of them requesting the military to sponsor their events either.
The Seperation of Church and state??????? I was a scout and the troop I belonged to was Non-denominational, I dont recall ever praying at a camp out or a meeting, and I went to a number of regional camporees one of which was on a national guard base.Non-denominational is a far cry from nonreligious. Do we really need to go over the number of members who have been kicked out of the scouts due to their religious views?
Those parents pay taxes same as everyone else. Why shouldn't their kids who are Scouts get something out of that money. Then what about the parents whose children aren't allowed to join the scouts; or those who don't have children at all?
I would really hate to tell the thousands of Boy Scouts who attend this function that they will not get the funding because the Government was forced to not to spend it due to a lawsuit.Then tell them that they won't be getting the funding because the Supreme Court has recognized that the BSA discriminates based on religion (among other things).
Wait until the ACLU gets around to the fact that the ARMY(and the other services as well) swears an oath to God as well...They can if they like, but they are not requiredto do so. When's the last time someone was kicked out of the Army for being an atheist?

[CentralTexas]

"Wait until the ACLU gets around to the fact that the ARMY(and the other services as well) swears an oath to God as well..."

I did the optional "affirm"....
CT

[SLCDave]

You know what bugs me? All the handouts the BSA gets in my area.

The Government gives BSA money.

My local religious orginization sponsors and donates money, and runs a volunteer organization for them.

Then they have a flag drive in my neighborhood, where, for a fee, they will post a flag in your yard on mornings of patriotic holidays, and pick it up in the evening. I call these folks the "Lazy Patriots".

Then the council has the troop canvas their neighborhood, asking for donations for the "Friends of Scouting" drive, so they can pay the salaries of the local Council members. They asked for a $50 donation, and none of that directly benefits the local troop.

The scouts in my area don't do jack crap, unless you count asking for donations.

[pwolfman]

CentralTexas,

I know that we can do the affirm or swear, but they still say "so help me God" at the end of the oath of enlistment...

So in the grand scheme of things, does it matter what it says versus what the ACLU is willing to go after...?

Once you start feeding the baby tiger table scraps, pretty soon it is looking for more meat, and licking its lips looking at you...

pwolfman

[taliv]

this separate of church/state is a total BS smokescreen. The ACLU nominally cares about that.

I'm 100% convinced that the ACLU is just looking to torment the scouts because they haven't caved in to allowing gays.

if i'm not mistaken, the scouts received quite a lot of money from United Way up through the '90s, and sometime around '99 they were dropped from United Way because of the gay issue.

[Hawkmoon]

Ever testified in Court or served on a Jury?????????

"For the record state your name"

"Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you GOD"

When will this be ruled unconstitutional????????
It has.

If you don't believe in God, you can so inform the judge and you will not be required to invoke the 'G' word in promising to tell the truth.

[Cosmoline]

Actually, it's a very good bang for buck investment. The BSA is a natural recruiting ground for good soldiers. Indeed it was started as a paramilitary organization to assist theh British Army in South Africa.

[EVIL5LITER]

This is the most retarded thing I've ever seen before.

BSA do all kinds of great things for the community at large, not to mention provide a great outlet for children to do things after school.

If the government cannot provide funding for BSA, then NO PROGRAMS that support afterschool activities for kids can be funded, period.

The ACLU can kiss my grits.

Many great Americans started out as scouts. I wonder how much worse crime/drug/youth problem would be without the scouts?

[Crownvicman]

Do you people who are so upset about the BSA getting gov't funding get the concept of recruiting? I was in scouts myself and even though I didn't join a service, three of my friends did. Giving young men a positive experience and attitude regarding the military makes a lot of sense and benefits the government and military. Giving that kind of support to a renfair or other groups does not.

[Bacon]

Doesn't the Military ban gays? If so, then shouldn't the ACLU be screaming about taxpayer support of the Military?

With all the programs that are supported by our taxes, why did the ACLU pick the BSA? Could this be driven by politics instead of concern for our tax dollars?

The ACLU is a farce.

[Jeff Timm]

Fact is the BSA is a military lead in organization. That's why they call um, "Scouts."

Since the Johnson case, where the BSA was used as a front for infiltration by homosexuals who raped little boys, the BSA has:

1. Forbidden homosexuals
2. Been under attack by the Democrat party and their child raping friends.

Now, which organization has seen large scale infiltration by homosexual child molesters, the BSA or the Catholic Church?

Which organization banned homosexuals?

Which organization is still settling civil suits for billions of US Dollars?

Geoff
Who is a neutral observer. :cool:

[thorn726]

2. Been under attack by the Democrat party and their child raping friends.


Geoff
Who is a neutral observer.

uhhhhhh.................... heheheh.

anyway as a former scout (i love scouts) - ehh, yeah , it is just religous enough of an organiztion it should not be funded.

i dunno what they woulda done with a raised atheist, but on the multi troop camporees, relgious service attendance WAS REQUIRED. they had a Jewish, and sometimes more than one type of Christian chaplain, and you had to go.

this is outside what tax dollars should go to.

i wasnt too happy about all the military stuff either, on one hand i'd rather it was all camping and survival and less uniform and discipline, and having such a large event tied to the military does evoke "nazi youth" images.

BUT - the camporees at West Point, learning from the instrustors there, visiting Intrepid, many other military parts of sCouts were interesting to say the least.

it isnt the worst thing as long as no noe is being pressured- which as far as i saw they arent. Scouts jsut has similarities to military, so makes sese military would be interested in them.
REMEber- boy scouts were created by Baden Powell and a group of Scouts that helped people - the big story was the helped folks find their way in London fog and wouldnt accept payment.

so the origiantions are in service and character, its not supposed to be a soldier factory

[Jammer Six]

Fund whoever you want, just not with my tax dollars.

I was a scout, and I'm behind the ACLU on this issue 100%.

I vote accordingly, and it pleases me that our leaders are finally getting the messages.

[BeLikeTrey]

I think that we need to just have more private support of it so the ACLU can kiss our grits. Military volunteer off time and we volunteer the funding. Then the ACLU can go suck an Egg. There's a reason I don't give to the United Way and BSA is one of them.
By the way I think the ACLU IS doing this as a vendetta suit. Screw em! I say if we can coordinate State guard and off duty Mil and show an increase in private funding, it'd be a nice "kiss my A__".

I still cant stand the thought of my tax dollars going to those that refuse to work... but heaven forbid some of my taxes go to a community service and a group dedicated to bring up good men and not degenerates. Heaven forbid that MY tax dolars go to a group that trains the future defenders of our freedom and instills values. :banghead:

I wonder can we donate and use as a tax write off.... hmmmmmmmm I'll check with my CPA. I'd much rather redirect funding to something worth it.

[Riverrat]

BeLikeTrey, I like the way you think.

I used to be a regional coordinator for the United Way. When they quit supporting the BSA, I quit supporting them. All of my donations go to them and the Girl Scouts.

When I was a hiring manager for a major company, I found that the experience in the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts indicated a person I could hire and put faith in. They do good work and prepare our youth. I think that qualifies them for support!

Riverrat

[Jeff Timm]

As a neutral observer, I have never been a Scout.

I have been in the US Army.

I have as a soldier been involved in setting up cabins in a national park, in time for a BSA event. However, the Army in the 1970s was short on funds and long on people. The improvements, improved a national park for all citizens, and the US Army, when it had the funds conducted training in that park, near Ft. Hood, TX.

Now, when it comes to military funds being used to support the Olympics...I'm opposed. When it comes to military funds being used to transport politicians, I'm opposed. When it comes to my tax money being used to provide bodyguards and security for politicians, I'm opposed.

But I calls 'um like I sees 'um, and the Democrat party is the patry of child rapers.

Geoff
Who does his duty. ;)

[Augustwest]

If the government cannot provide funding for BSA, then NO PROGRAMS that support afterschool activities for kids can be funded, period.

Sounds good to me...

[Barbara]

Oh, and I don't believe there's a requirement to swear to god when taking the stand...I'm pretty sure an affirmation instead of an oath is acceptable.

I always thought the affirmation choice was open due to Christians being forbidden to swear an oath. I could be wrong, though. Maybe its for both reasons.

[Jeeper]

From a "funding for an organization that promotes religion" standpoint they shouldnt get the money.

I think that it is a definite recruiting tool for the military. From that standpoint it is OK. What other event can get more young people in one place that would likely join the military. No different than spening money on recruiters and sending them diretly to religous schools.