Full auto AR-15 vs M16


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eurohacker
July 8, 2005, 02:21 PM
I am wondering why people pay $10 000 for a 20 year old M16 when full auto AR-15's can be had much cheaper?

Let's see. An AR-15 can be had for $700, right? $200 NFA tax. The full auto-sear is what, $50? So that's 10 times cheaper!

What is the catch? Are full-auto AR-15's suckier/less reliable?

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Commissar Gribb
July 8, 2005, 02:27 PM
because the ATF stopped taking Form 1s to make full autos in 1986

therfore you end up paying $700 for the rifle and upwards of $7-900 for the sear because it has to have been registered before the cutoff.

if it were as easy as buying the parts and putting them together, everyone would have full autos.

Dmack_901
July 8, 2005, 02:27 PM
What is the catch?
It's illegal. All Full-Auto AR15/M16 type rifles are around $15,000. By putting an unregistered auto-sear into an ar15 you'd be manufacturing a machine gun. And that is a BIG no-no.

Commissar Gribb
July 8, 2005, 02:32 PM
20 years and a federal conviction IIRC.

Zak Smith
July 8, 2005, 03:16 PM
Drop-in auto sears (DIAS), registered as machineguns, currently go for about $7000-10000 and don't run very well either.

If new machineguns could be registered, you'd see $800 M16's; just look at Colts military/LEO pricing...

-z

Correia
July 8, 2005, 03:25 PM
eurohacker, you've posted several dozen thread questions now that would easily be answered by a quick use of the search function. You may want to try that out.

DrDremel
July 8, 2005, 05:22 PM
The reason people pay the 10 grand is because they are registered and it is the only way to legally own them for non-govt use. buying the pieces and putting one together yourself will get you 20 years in jail.

kal
July 8, 2005, 05:36 PM
buying the pieces and putting one together yourself will get you 20 years in jail.

Only in peace time. ;)

What about those semi auto MGs? They fire from a closed bolt and have a striker installed. Isn't it impossible to make these semi auto MGs full auto because of thier internal design? Regular MGs usually fire from the open bolt position and they dont have strikers/hammers.

Zak Smith
July 8, 2005, 05:39 PM
What about those semi auto MGs?
Oxymoron.
They fire from a closed bolt and have a striker installed. Isn't it impossible to make these semi auto MGs full auto because of thier internal design?
What?

eurohacker
July 8, 2005, 05:43 PM
Sorry, I didn't know the '86 cutoff applied to sears as well.

THEORETICALLY, would it be difficult to acquire/manufacture an illegal sear?

HighVelocity
July 8, 2005, 05:54 PM
I've got this yellow sunflower thingy that spins and keeps moles out of my garden. That's 100% legal and really cheap too.

Too Many Choices!?
July 8, 2005, 05:55 PM
:uhoh: :scrutiny:!!

Zak Smith
July 8, 2005, 05:59 PM
Why don't you call 1-800-283-4867 and find out?

Sistema1927
July 8, 2005, 06:00 PM
THEORETICALLY, would it be difficult to acquire/manufacture an illegal sear?

I don't think that anyone is going to touch that with a ten foot pole.

This is "The High Road", and condoning illegal acts is "low road" material.

eurohacker
July 8, 2005, 06:08 PM
Even though I see no harm in discussing such things for educational purposes, and while I am not a person who equates law with ethics, I respect your opinion. Sorry if I offended you.

GunGoBoom
July 8, 2005, 06:43 PM
Answering a theoretical question is not the same thing as condoning an illegal act - not even close. That's like answering the question "so if I pointed a gun at a person I don't like and pulled the trigger, it would likely kill him?". Answering correctly (yes) does not make one a condon-er of criminal acts. Just FYI. But I understand, it's not a great idea to even discuss it really. And I don't know the answer the question - don't care really - just pointing out a mis-statement of facts. Actually I do know that it would be quite easy to manufacture the FA parts, if one were so inclined, simply because they're small metal parts and dremels are cheap and available. But I have no idea if it's easy to acquire one, either legally or illegally. In any event, no point in the USA to do so, since you can't legally place them in a weapon, thus manufacturing a FA weapon without a class III. And since the usefulness of FA is quite limited, and the legal penalties quite steep, it would be pretty senseless.

taliv
July 8, 2005, 06:50 PM
Answering a theoretical question is not the same thing as condoning an illegal act - not even close.

for rational people, perhaps. but it certainly dramatically increases your chances of being harrassed by the atf

Monkeyleg
July 8, 2005, 07:09 PM
I ran into a guy at a gun show two years ago who said he had a license to manufacture his own full-auto's. (He had a Sten with him that he said he'd built from parts). He said it cost $500 a year for the license, and that one of the provisions of the license was that the full-auto's could not be sold.

I'd never heard that before. Bullfeathers, or is there such a thing?

Zak Smith
July 8, 2005, 07:12 PM
A Class II (Manufacturer of NFA Firearms) licensee can build NFA weapons. Post-86 machineguns can only be transferred to LEO/mil, however.

Commissar Gribb
July 8, 2005, 08:49 PM
Sorry, I didn't know the '86 cutoff applied to sears as well.

THEORETICALLY, would it be difficult to acquire/manufacture an illegal sear?

all the full auto parts are relatively easy to find and for the most part are inexpensive -however they're for replacement in licensed weapons.

anyone can own the individual parts and the rifles (save people who can't pass the yellow sheet test) however owning them TOGETHER- that's a federal crime

Jack19
July 8, 2005, 09:04 PM
I smell a troll. :scrutiny:

Yo, troll, check out the following.

BATFE REGS (http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2000_ref.htm)

GunnySkox
July 8, 2005, 09:12 PM
Yeah, manufacturing a machinegun would be a pretty bad scene, legally speaking.

Mechanically, it's pretty simple, AFAIK, and the internal differences between an M16 and an AR aren't vast (I read someplace that there's another pin and some more junk inside)

~Slam_Fire

eurohacker
July 8, 2005, 09:27 PM
Still, it's useful knowledge if TSHTF and/or TEOTWAWKI occurs :)

Zak Smith
July 8, 2005, 09:42 PM
In that case, you would have a weapon of questionable reliability that you haven't trained with.

Kaylee
July 8, 2005, 09:51 PM
Oh, mechanically there are quite a few different parts than just the sear -- bolt carrier, trigger group, so forth and so on. And yes, it's possible to buy or manufacture parts for a conversion.

However, said coversion is -
1 -- seriously illegal (unless you're a registered manufacturer, in which case you'd already know all this and not need to ask the question.)

and if you're making the parts or just dremeling around ...

2 -- likely to be highly entertaining to people reading the papers when your home-brew job goes kaBOOM on ya thanks to an open breech detonation. :)

-K

kal
July 9, 2005, 12:25 AM
What I'm saying is that most REAL machine guns (belt feds for example) are operating on an open bolt system. I assume you know what open bolt operation is. Now, when you pull the trigger to trip the sear, the bolt slams forward, chambers a round and locks on to the chamber. The bolt carrier has a fixed firing pin so when it's moving forward to lock the bolt head on to the chamber, the fixed firing pin will hit the primer and shoot the bullet. You see, there was NO hammer involved.

The semi auto belt feds that are approved by the ATF have a totally different operating system. It fires from a CLOSED BOLT, thus the firing pin ISN'T fixed, and requires a hammer to be installed for the gun to work.

What I was asking is, wouldn't it be very difficult to convert a ATF approved semi auto MG into a real version full auto MG?

For example, a semi auto M60, into a real version full auto M60.

Zak Smith
July 9, 2005, 12:40 AM
Regular MGs usually fire from the open bolt position and they dont have strikers/hammers.
[...]
What I'm saying is that most REAL machine guns are operating on an open bolt system.
Except the M16, the Sig 550-series, the HK G36, the G3, CETME, FAL, M14, and every modern battle and assault rifle. And the HK MP5 and UMP. I'll grant you that most beltfeds and pre-1980 subguns fire from an open bolt, however.


Isn't it impossible [...]

wouldn't it be very difficult to convert [...]

It comes down to machined metal parts and springs. A circa 1900 machine shop has everything required to modify and/or fabricate the differences for any of them. For example, the "registered" part of an M2 50 cal machinegun is simply a stamped and cut metal side-plate.

What stops people from doing so is that it is illegal.

-z

MechAg94
July 9, 2005, 12:40 AM
If the SHTF or TEOTWAWKI, you might be better served with an accurate semi-auto that is reliable rather than a full-auto with questionable reliability.

Also, ammo might be at a premium. You have to make every shot count.

RyanM
July 9, 2005, 05:24 AM
Mechanically, it's pretty simple, AFAIK, and the internal differences between an M16 and an AR aren't vast (I read someplace that there's another pin and some more junk inside)

Actually, the differences between an M16 and AR15 receiver are indeed vast, IIRC. The AR15 receiver is narrower inside (or is it vice-versa?) and must be ground out extensively to make room. New holes must be drilled in exactly the right place for a ton of new parts. Plus it's only legal if you're a Class II manufacturer. It would be cheaper, easier, and safer to just get a transferrable M16.

There are also "things" which can convert an AR15 to full-auto only rather than select-fire, but those are of very questionable reliability and, once again, only legal for Class II manufactures. I won't talk about them in any more detail than that.

You'd be better off learning to bump-fire if you want to shoot fast.

Must... resist... making... comment... about... Eurohacker's... parents... needing... to buy... him... a gun... first...

Darn.

eurohacker
July 9, 2005, 08:51 AM
RyanM: if it were as simple as that I'd have tons of guns by now. I live in Sweden, remember? :) I am working on it...

Btw, are there any companies making new semi-auto versions of military machine guns? Would be neat to have a semi-auto Ma Deuce... And one that doesn't cost a fortune.

Roadkill
July 9, 2005, 09:20 AM
Eurohacker, for some reason your line of questioning makes me nervous. Be it full auto conversions, silencers, machine guns, out of country transfers, FFL & C&R transfers, or even conversing in a chat room with a supposed female who insists she is really eighteen, you seem to consistently allude to the illegal or potentiality of illegal actions regarding firearms. Half of the subjects you have begun (do a thread check) have involved illegalities.First of all the conversation begins in generalities. Then it becomes more specific. Next is a private message to discuss it in a less public and more specific manner. Then a impassioned plea for assistance becaue of lack of experience, no resources, need your expertise, flattery, poor Swedish kid, ect. Then a violation of Federal Firearms Laws and real problems. Not that I need consensus, but others have sensed this also. Members of this forum, please be careful. If it looks like a duck.......


rk

eurohacker
July 9, 2005, 09:45 AM
Roadkill: are you on crack? I have not asked anyone on this board for help in committing illegalities. What is it with you yanks? A person is curious of non-mainstream things, and he is branded a potential terrorist or whatever... Information on its own is never bad. Just like how guns don't kill people on their own.

rbernie
July 9, 2005, 11:26 AM
What is it with you yanks? It's simple, really. There are several reasons why the US firearms laws aren't yet as draconian as yours, but one if them is that we're smart enough not to tweak the tail of the tiger when it's not needed. It's a skill learned with age, perhaps?

You want info on this stuff - use Google. But don't ask folks treading on the thin ice of controlled-yet-still-legal firearms ownership to discuss things that could, if followed to their conclusion, land them in jail and lose them their rights to keep/bear arms.

Kaylee
July 9, 2005, 12:58 PM
RK -- I suspect our young friend is just in the grips of teenagus masculinus, a condition manifesting in a sizable amount of the species for some number of years. Symptoms include a fascination with all things that go bang, particulary of the verboten variety. I'm sure you never asked similar questions at 16, right? ;)

That said euro.. if you're that interested, there's all kinds of technical manuals and such on the web. If there is a gunsmithy near you, you might even be able to persuade them to take you on as an apprentice.. do their grunt work in exchange for some education. Just dress neatly, be polite, and act responsible when you introduce yourself, and you might be surprised to see how much the ol' coots are willing to teach you (of the legal variety, I mean). Stay away from the jailbait questions and mouthing off on the latest "true fact" from a gunboard or magazine, and you'll prolly do quite well. :)

-K

Soap
July 9, 2005, 01:04 PM
I suspect our young friend is just in the grips of teenagus masculinus, a condition manifesting in a sizable amount of the species for some number of years. Symptoms include a fascination with all things that go bang, particulary of the verboten variety. I'm sure you never asked similar questions at 16, right?

Bingo! I just wish eurohacker could hit the range to get it out of his system! :)

CleverNickname
July 9, 2005, 01:32 PM
Actually, the differences between an M16 and AR15 receiver are indeed vast, IIRC. The AR15 receiver is narrower inside (or is it vice-versa?) and must be ground out extensively to make room. New holes must be drilled in exactly the right place for a ton of new parts. Plus it's only legal if you're a Class II manufacturer. It would be cheaper, easier, and safer to just get a transferrable M16.

Techically, "AR15" doesn't mean semi-auto, as there are some very early AR15s (from before the military adopted the M16) that are full-auto. Some still exist as transferrables, and are more expensive than M16's because they're C&R eligible.

As for the difference in recievers, some AR15 receivers are narrower in the area above the selector, to prevent installation of an auto sear even if the auto sear hole is drilled. Some AR15 receivers are the correct dimension. The only other difference is the auto sear pin hole, which is right above the trigger in full-auto guns.


There are also "things" which can convert an AR15 to full-auto only rather than select-fire, but those are of very questionable reliability and, once again, only legal for Class II manufactures. I won't talk about them in any more detail than that.

Unregistered "pre-81" drop-in auto sears are illegal to possess with a semi-auto AR15, but there are also registered drop-in auto sears that are legally considered machine guns in and of themselves. Drop one of those in a semi-auto AR15, and the whole gun is legally considered a machine gun while the RDIAS is installed. Remove it, and the gun goes back to being a title I gun. Functionally, a drop-in auto sear also requires M16 fire control parts.

varoadking
July 9, 2005, 03:42 PM
Techically, "AR15" doesn't mean semi-auto, as there are some very early AR15s (from before the military adopted the M16) that are full-auto. Some still exist as transferrables, and are more expensive than M16's because they're C&R eligible.

A C&R eligible Full Auto AR15?

Pass the bong - I want some of whatever you're smokin'...

Hkmp5sd
July 9, 2005, 04:38 PM
C&R eligible Full Auto AR15?

Pass the bong - I want some of whatever you're smokin'...

SEC. IV: National Firearms Act Weapons Classified As Curios Or Relics Under 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44

Armalite AR-15, .222 Remington or.223 cals., produced by Armalite.
Armalite AR-15, Model 601,.223 cal., mfd. by Colt. Must be marked "Armalite."


http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/relics/curio.pdf

Monkeyleg
July 9, 2005, 05:21 PM
Back to the Class II question, if you folks don't mind:

If I were to obtain a Class II license, would I be able to buy restricted parts at "normal" prices, or would I still have to pay the artificially inflated prices for things like M16 auto sears (not the drop-in sears), or Thompson receivers, or barrells, etc?

Also, would I be required to do all the machine work myself, or is that something that could legally be contracted out?

The reason I'm intrigued by a Class II license is that years back I sold a full-auto Thompson for about $2000, and there's no way I can afford to buy one at today's prices.

Hkmp5sd
July 9, 2005, 05:27 PM
The "restricted" parts themselves are cheap and already available. You can see many full auto parts kits listed in Shotgun News. If you own an NFA weapon, you can buy the parts kits and have spares around. The inflated prices are when you start talking about the registered component. Whatever is registered (receiever, sear, DIAS, etc) is what commands the premium. There is now a significant difference in the prices of pre-86 and post-86 dealer samples too.

You can contract out the machine work and any other tasks you want. You just have to put it all together.

The problem is that if you are merely talking machineguns, you will spend a lot more money getting all of the assorted licenses, permits, stamps, etc. to make machineguns than you will in buying a transferrable machinegun. Even then, if you give up the SOT, you have to get rid of the machineguns, unless they are pre-86 samples. You MUST create a legitimate business to make NFA weapons or ATF will go after you.

Zak Smith
July 9, 2005, 06:51 PM
Even a Class III dealer (not even a Class II mfgr) can buy post-86 dealer samples for "cheap."

-z

captain obvious
July 9, 2005, 07:15 PM
You guys ought to cut eurohacker some slack - I know I sure started my firearms interest with military lookalikes (compounded by, initally, anti parents), and it branched out to the poing where it is today - with my list of next to get populated by trapdoors, krags, springfields and martini henrys. My collection is a testament to my ever aging interest.

Must be bad to have that over there though - I guess time will tell if he eventually changes his research interest to milsurps.

OTOH, most of us have enough stress in our lives without some of the questions you have posed, euro. Please make use of the search tool and read up.

TODD3465
July 9, 2005, 07:54 PM
By some of the the replies here you'd think the anti's had won. :scrutiny:

I just love how the word "illegal" is tossed up when it comes to certain firearms on a firearms forum no less. :rolleyes:

These are not "illegal" weapons, only restricted(read infringed) unless you have the time, money and patience to pay(for permits) to a right you should have free of charge. And don't live in the wrong state. :mad:

Zak Smith
July 9, 2005, 08:02 PM
I just love how the word "illegal" is tossed up when it comes to certain firearms on a firearms forum no less.

These are not "illegal" weapons, only restricted(read infringed) unless you have the time, money and patience to pay(for permits) to a right you should have free of charge. And don't live in the wrong state.
Every use of the work "illegal" I found in this thread is properly qualified. Some even went ahead and discussed Class II mfgrs and Class III dealers including post-86 samples.

Discussing how to do something illegal (e.g. create an unregistered MG when not a Class II mfgr) is not a good idea.

-z

Throttle_monkey1
July 10, 2005, 03:17 AM
Euro hacker is in sweden. He probably has never even seen a gun, unless he's over 18 and has done a year in the army.

As a swede living in canada (which itself still has strict gun laws, not as bad as sweden's though) I envy you americans. the laws here suck. Can canadian illegal immigrants in america find work as easy as the mexican ones? i speak good english !!!

RevDisk
July 10, 2005, 07:22 AM
As a swede living in canada (which itself still has strict gun laws, not as bad as sweden's though) I envy you americans. the laws here suck. Can canadian illegal immigrants in america find work as easy as the mexican ones? i speak good english !!!

Heh. Converting over to being an American citizen isn't that bad. High taxes, corrupt politicians, plenty of loonies on both ends of the political sprectrum. Uhm, actually, I suppose the US isn't THAT different from Canada. Except we pronounce "about" correctly. :neener:


We happen to have better gun laws. That has to count for something.

chopinbloc
July 10, 2005, 09:06 AM
buying the pieces and putting one together yourself will get you 20 years in jail.
buying the pieces and NOT putting them together will get you the same. atf considers it constructive possesion. you'll see ads in the shotgun news for drop-in auto sears, usually about $250 or so, many people believe this is an atf ploy as one would have no use for the part except manufacture of a mg, so why would someone pay $250 for a paper weight. remember, the reciever has to be registered as a mg.

second, there IS a big difference between ar-15's and m-16's. the bolt carrier, fire control group and auto sear are all different, but like it was mentioned earlier, can be had pretty cheap. i imagine the places that sell those parts want to see a copy of your atf paperwork, though i'm not sure. the hard part of converting an ar to an m-16 is that the hollow for the auto sear isn't there in the ar-15's lower receiver. one would need a machine shop to mill out the pocket and i imagine it would have to be fairly precise. the myth of easily converting sa to fa in any weapon is a fallacy perpetrated (illegally, in some cases) by 60min and their ilk. there are some weapons you can get to slam-fire pretty easily but you won't be shooting them for long.

Father Knows Best
July 10, 2005, 11:59 AM
With respect to getting a Class II license to manufacture NFA weapons, HKmp5sd said:You MUST create a legitimate business to make NFA weapons or ATF will go after you.

Absolutely. It is illegal to get a Class II license to make firearms for yourself, just as it is illegal to get a Class III (NFA dealer) for the purpose of buying firearms for your personal collection/use. Class II is only for people who legitimately intend to manufacture NFA items for sale to others. People have been prosecuted for abusing it.

As others have pointed out, it is much cheaper and safer to just buy a legally transferable full NFA weapon. Transferable subguns can be found for as little as $2,500 without too much trouble. They're excellent investments, too. Just like real estate, they're not making any more of them, so appreciation is pretty much guaranteed.

Father Knows Best
July 10, 2005, 12:05 PM
You guys ought to cut eurohacker some slack

I don't think so. My radar tells me something isn't right. Frankly, I'm not buying the "poor kid in Sweden" bit. For all we know, he's a reporter doing a story on how easy it is to buy/manufacture firearms illegally, or an operative for one of the gun-ban groups.

It is bad practice to advise anyone how to break/evade the law. It's much worse to do so in a public forum, and with someone you don't know. You never know who's reading these posts. Even if Eurohacker is legit, criminals and terrorists could read these posts and use the information to do some very bad things.

As others have pointed out, the web is full of information, and there are lots of good search engines. When it comes to discussion of illegal activities, let he who wants to know figure it out for himself.

Soap
July 10, 2005, 12:47 PM
Father Knows Best- Where did anyone tell him (or anyone else) how to circumvent U.S. law? So far all I see are straight answers regarding the legal way to do any question he has asked. :confused:

Commissar Gribb
July 10, 2005, 05:49 PM
if you shoot someone in the head they'll die- and you'll have broken the law.

Is it wrong that I said this? now people know how to break the law!

Father Knows Best
July 10, 2005, 06:01 PM
Father Knows Best- Where did anyone tell him (or anyone else) how to circumvent U.S. law? So far all I see are straight answers regarding the legal way to do any question he has asked.

I didn't say that the line has been crossed. I'm just pointing out that it is there. Telling someone how to go about converting a semi-auto into a machine gun is crossing the line. Telling them that they need to get a Class II license to do so is not. If you'll look above, that's exactly what I did.

When people start asking "theoretical" questions about breaking the law, you should be wary.

mariac
July 10, 2005, 06:27 PM
if you shoot someone in the head they'll die- and you'll have broken the law.

Is it wrong that I said this? now people know how to break the law!

You can't be serious. Knowing someone may die from a gunshot wound to the head is, obviously, common knowledge (you do know what that is, right?). Knowing how to convert a semi to auto is not. PM me if you still do not understand and need a little help.

Soap
July 10, 2005, 07:06 PM
Father Knows Best- He only asked once and didn't press the issue. Sometimes when you're inexperienced you ask questions that are completely taboo or verboten, which is fine as long as you get the message and don't ask again (which eurohacker obviously did).

Jack19
July 10, 2005, 07:16 PM
Kaylee, nice job editing this tread. Really. If you're the one who edited out my, and Chris's comments, thank you very much.

I apologise if I offended anyone, and maybe Chris, who had his post deleted too, had a point.

But I will not apologise for pointing out that the frequency of eruo's questions regarding how to best violate laws here in the US, if, indeed, he's in Sweden, put the US citizen in a precarious position. Other members, and more than one in several posts, have noted this frequency as well. As far as I can tell, their posts were not deleted.

If you were the mod who deleted our posts, I must take issue with your censoring the debate. If this is what is allowed, or expected, on THR, ban me, I'll move along.

Coronach
February 4, 2009, 12:38 AM
This thread had died a peaceful death four years ago, and suddenly it goes zombie on us.

Mike ;)

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