[eurohacker]

If you need, say, 15 rounds, but you're doubting the stopping power of the 9mm, what are your options?

I just get so confused. One guy says 9mm sucks, another says it doesn't.

[Smoke]

Para Ordnance P14. .45
Para Ordnance P16. .40

Others that are similar...SVI, STI, Kimber, Wilson makes a High Cap.

Other Polymer pistols are available in bigger hole - higher capacity offerings.

Smoke

[1 old 0311]

The 9mm has killed Millions in wars all over the earth for the last 90 years. The .40 crowd screams GO .40, the .45 crowd screams GO .45, I am sure there are even a few who won't carry anything less than the new S&W 500.
Find something you can afford to practice with and ignore the "gunshop commando's"

Kevin

[eurohacker]

What about the SOCOM mk23?

[thatguy]

You seem obsessed with combat guns and shooting people. This continued fixation on such things will lead people to question your motives or at the least, your maturity.

[GregGry]

Para Ordnance P14. .45

Ahh yes, I am buying one of thoes soon :D

Seriously though Eurohacker, you ask some really werid questions. In terms of double the stopping power of a 9mm, I really doubt a .45 would be double. In a lot of the tests I have seen, penetration between the 9mm and .45acp are very similar. The .45 typically punches a bigger hole though. If your worried about stopping power, just get a s&w 500 revolver. If you hit center mass with it, you wont have to worry about the target still walking.

If a shot is placed well, you can take a target down with a .22. Caliber and power is one thing, but if you can't hit the side of a barn from inside of it, it doesn't matter if you have a 50 round extended magazine in a 1911 (being sarcastic of course), you still wont be able to hit a target. I personally decided on the PO p14 because I like its features, and the extra capacity magazine will make my plinking more fun, because I wont have to reload as often.

You seem obsessed with combat guns and shooting people. This continued fixation on such things will lead people to question your motives or at the least, your maturity.

Yes I know what you mean. Personally I am a bit disturbed by some of the questions he asks, but since I imagine he is 14, I figure he doesn't know any better.

[GregGry]

What about the SOCOM mk23? The HK mark 23 is a very great pistol, I had the chance to hold one at the local gun shop. I will have one some day, right now I can't justify the 2,200 price tag.

[eurohacker]

thatguy: hell yes, I am obsessed. But, unlike some people, I can separate my fantasies from reality :D If you lived in a restrictive country, you would fantasize about guns all day long too...

[eurohacker]

I am thinking it would be a choice between Para Ordnance P14 and HK USP. Both hold 12 rounds of .45ACP, right? Or .13 rounds of .40.

What say you, experts?

[Velocity229]

If you need, say, 15 rounds, but you're doubting the stopping power of the 9mm, what are your options?

I just get so confused. One guy says 9mm sucks, another says it doesn't.

You are doubting the stopping power in 15 rounds of 9mm?! :scrutiny:

I'm just going to stop here. :rolleyes:

[geekWithA.45]

I just get so confused. One guy says 9mm sucks, another says it doesn't.

It depends on whether the guy using 9mm has befriended the rounds and has made the appropriate burnt offerings.

9mm is moody, and must be wined and dined before it'll perform.

[GregGry]

I am thinking it would be a choice between Para Ordnance P14 and HK USP. Both hold 12 rounds of .45ACP, right? Or .13 rounds of .40.
The P14 holds 14+1, the USP holds 12 rounds. The Usp is cheaper then the P14 that I am going to buy, but I wanted the higher capacity of the p14, I liked the finish/look of it more, and I like the feel of the metal Vs the plastic of the hk. Don't get me wrong, the USP is a fine gun, and I wouldn't mind having one any day (especially compared to a glock). I just decided if I was going to blow my budget for a firearm, I might as well get what I really wanted. I would personally recommend that you actually go out to a shop, and fire any handgun that your interested in. You can talk about them all day, and keep dreaming about which one is better, but at a certain point you have to find out for yourself

One thing I have found, is the handgun world is much like the car audio world. Since car audio is a big hobby of mine I deal with it day in and day out. There are people that wont settle for anything less then 4 15" sub woofers, and there are people who only want one 8 inch sub. People always ask me what I like for speakers, and I do have my preferred brands of course. What I like and what other people like are often two different things. That's why I use the mentality, get recommendation on good brands, listen to said brands, buy what you like.

The same can be said about a handgun. Get information on good companies, go to the gun shop and try out said pistols, and buy what fits your needs. You can buy a firearm without trying it, I don't recommend that, unless you have a good experience with the same or similar model. Take other peoples recommendations as that, recommendations. What works for one person doesn't for others. Kind of like how I would love to have a desert eagle, because it fits my hand very well, and fires magnum calibers very well. For someone with small hands, the desert eagle is often to big, and not comfortable.

[thebucket]

The Taurus PT 24/7 in 45 ACP holds 12 rounds and the grip is very comfortable. Or a Tanfoglio Witness in 10mm Auto gives you 15 rounds and the ability to hunt deer (at least in Minnesota).

[Candiru]

The most powerful bullet in the world is useless if it doesn't hit the target. Accuracy trumps power in every case, every time. Therefore, the largest component of the almost mythical "stopping power" (I think I saw stopping power hanging out at a chimaera bar with a yeti and a unicorn) is the skill of the shooter. Since 9mm is the least expensive centerfire round, I chose that as my defensive caliber so that I could afford to practice more. If .45ACP were cheaper or I could shoot it better, I'd be using that. The only reason I don't use .22 is because I don't trust rimfire reliability and it is genuinely teensy-tiny, as opposed to 9mm, which is only small in the hyperbolic hand-wringing of suburban commandos.

As to the issue of capacity, it's a solution to the wrong problem. All but the tiniest fraction of civilian defense scenarios could have been resolved with the capacity of a five-shot revolver. In documented cases where a reload was necessary, it was because the shooter ran dry due to missing; after the reload, he usually continued to miss. I think the availability of too many rounds encourages sloppy shooting.

Prudence, placement, power. In that order.

[mete]

Need 15 rounds ? That's why you carry extra magazines ,you can reload quickly or carry an extra gun for a "NY reload".

[ewb45acp]

I keep thinking I need to get one of those.

[mattw]

G21 holds 13+1
Para Ord P14 holds 14+1
USP holds 12+1
Springfield Armory and Kimber and Wilson Combat all make wide body 1911 frames that accept Para Ord Mags.

you could always get a .45GAP....

[Colonel Klink]

Euro, and everyone else who hasn't thought about it: 15 rounds is not "high capacity". A lot of guns held that many rounds before the Clinton Gun BAN. The anti's started calling 15 rounds high capacity. Please call it standard capacity especially in front of anti's. High capacity is the 100 round magazine for an AR-15 or even the 50 round or how about a belt fed.

Most gun fights end without a shoot being fired. Just presenting a gun can cause the BG to turn and run. I carry five rounds of .38 caliber with no backup rounds or gun. I practice weekly so if I ever need to use it in self defense I can make effective shots.

My experience has been that having a gun allows me to walk away from situtations knowing I have it to protect myself. The very last thing I want to do is shoot someone. They are going to work very hard to make them shoot them.

[eurohacker]

It's more fun to blast cans with 15 rounds in the mag :)

[mattw]

get a mac-10

[thebucket]

Colonel, I think he was meaning high capacity in a more relative sense, as in a 15 round 9mm mag has high capacity when compared to a 7 round 45 ACP mag.

[Jayb]

Just my opinion, but if one "needs" 15 rounds in a carry weapon, perhaps one would be better served to concentrate on proficiency and accuracy, regardless of caliber. In a country where use of firearms is severly restricted, I wouldn't consider the "high capacity" concern relevant in the first place.

[pezo]

If you feel you need more than 15 rounds out of a handgun you would be best served carrying a 12 gauge shotgun or ar15 or the like. In all honesty every caliber or platform has it's puprose. NO the 9mm does not suck or else it wouldnt be the popular round it is today. Its just what's your expectation or purpose you'r trying to acheive. SHoot the 9mm and other calibers then decide before buying.

[Baba Louie]

Speaking for myself, I bought a couple of the +2 magazine extensions for 2 of my Glock 21 magazines... which now hold 15. With one normal 13 rd. magazine in the weapon, one round in the chamber and the 2 modified magazines on the belt... I hope I don't fall into a deep stream or lake... ;)

Since I practice shot placement on a regular basis and I'm not limited to 9mm ball ammo, I have no worries with the Glock 17 (even tho I also bought a couple of +2's for some of my 17's magazines) shooting 124 gr. JHP.

Soda cans tremble in our presence. (It's MORE fun to blast cans with 17 rounds in the magazine) :D

eurohacker... dude, with all respect, spend a week or two with the search function and in the THR Library (upper right hand corner) reading + learning and soon you'll be almost as knowledgable as our own C.R. Sam... well, that + 50 some years of lifetime experience. :)

Keep the questions coming as there's no such thing as a stupid question... well, there are, actually, but, you know what I mean... that's why I say do the search thing, read THR Library

[MTMilitiaman]

I love how people seem to automatically assume that desiring any more capacity than a 1911 or revolver automatically subscribes someone to the method of spray and pray. You don't usually carry a weapon intending on using it. Most of us carry for defensive purposes in the event of a worse case scenerio when no other realistic option exists. With that in mind, you'd think that people would be more open to actually planning for a worst case scenerio and if the technology existed to put 7 more rounds in your magazine, people be more open to using it instead of automatically assuming that those who want more magazine capacity than our grandfathers simply want to shoot up an entire magazine and spray lead in a general direction.
Yes most defensive shootouts don't involve shots and those that do usually involve relatively few shots. When your life and the life of your family is on the line, are you going to plan for the average or worst case?
I know that I own a USP 45 and a Glock 20. I considered magazine capacity when considering each. Yes, a long gun is better, but having 15 rounds in the magazine is not a bad thing to me, and it sure as hell doesn't mean I hold my gun sideways or any of that such crap. Common sense dictates that 15 well placed rounds before a reload is still better than 7 well placed rounds.

[XLMiguel]

Unless you're going to war, the reading I've done/conventional wisdom/urban legend suggests that most gunfights occur at 5 yards or less, firing 5 rounds or less, and are over in 5 seconds or less.
And as noted, shot placement has a whole lot more to do with the outcome than caliber, e.g. a hit with a .22 counts more than a miss with a .45. I am entirely comfortable with a 9mm, and it is what I carry most often.

Shoot what you shoot well, and practice regularly, thus endeth the sermon.

[Javelin Man]

15 rounds would be best served with a spare magazine holding your other 7 rounds with your gun holding 7 and 1 in the tube. Most guns can do this for you. 15 round magazines start to get unreliable.

That said, if you REALLY are in a situation where you NEED 15 rounds, you're already in deep do-do. :eek: You should have an AK-47 with a 30 rd. magazine at your disposal.

Didn't Mr. and Mrs. Smith in the movie have pistols with 15 rd. magazines and shoot their way out of about 25 gunman shooting at them? :p

[tbeb]

Stop feeling confused. I'm no expert, but I don't feel there's a big difference between calibers like 9mm, .357 sig, .40 Smith & Wesson, and .45 ACP. I don't think a vital organ will be able to tell the difference. Just use ammunition that penetrates deep enough. I have a 17-shot 9mm and an
8-shot .45 ACP. I feel sufficiently armed with either. (If I had a 17-shot .45 ACP I think I'd grab it first though.)

[Zak Smith]

Facts:

1. The terminal performance of modern premium defensive pistol ammunition in 9x19, 40SW, and 45ACP is nearly indistinguishable.

2. There are all manner of higher-capacity pistols chamberted in 40SW, 10MM, and 45ACP. (e.g. My SV "Limited" gun has a capacity of 20+1 40SW or 10MM, with 140mm magazines.)

ETA, PS eurohacker,

Please do some research before you post. For example, you could have searched (both here and on Google) for the state of the art in terminal ballistics study to understand what "stopping power" means, and you could have searched for common 40SW and 45ACP pistols to determine what capacity was available.

[Jack19]

I've been carrying a 9mm (BHP and now G19) for the better part of 25 years. If you doubt the lethality of 9mm, trot down range.

Remember, it's better to have more rounds on you than more rounds in you. Higher capacity magazines mean only that you reload less often; it is your responsibility to learn how to place shots accurately.

[turbonatr]

"Stopping Power"?

:rolleyes:

http://www.ammolab.myhomepage.com/page/page/1613332.htm#30529

[MTMilitiaman]

15 rounds would be best served with a spare magazine holding your other 7 rounds with your gun holding 7 and 1 in the tube. Most guns can do this for you. 15 round magazines start to get unreliable.

Yeah because more reloads is always a good idea :rolleyes: And I seriously doubt if there is much difference in reliability between a modern 15 round magazine in, say, a Glock and a modern 7 round magazine in, say, a 1911. If you have evidence to the contrary, please do tell.

That said, if you REALLY are in a situation where you NEED 15 rounds, you're already in deep do-do. You should have an AK-47 with a 30 rd. magazine at your disposal.

We already noted that a rifle or shotgun would be better in just about any defensive situations. As I already suggested, people don't carry pistols because it is ideal and probably shouldn't carry it to prepare for the average defensive situation.

Sorry if I sound overly sarcastic but I just can't buy your logic.

[Javelin Man]

I'm sorry you couldn't follow the logic. I'm sure I typed slowly enough. :)
I'm following the logic that you already are using: Less reloads. Instead of reloading a 15 round magazine, use a 30 rd. AK magazine. Heck, use a Tec-9 and a 50 rd. magazine if they are so reliable. :p

I have two S&W 59 15 rd. magazines, and neither work with my Kel-tec. I've since learned that the springs aren't strong enough to keep up with the faster action. I've changed springs and they're still not up to par. I'm still fiddling with them. Forgive my lack of experience with Glock larger capacity magazines. I don't know their reliability and won't comment on them. I use a 12 round magazine in my 9mm. My brother asked if it would ever run out as he shot it. I suppose that's what the original poster wants to feel like.

BTW, which is better, 9mm or .45? :evil:

[bernie]

Glock 20, 10mm.

[MTMilitiaman]

Glock 20, 10mm.

Now we're talking.

Javelin, I am sure if people could just carry their rifles around with them all the time, they would. Unfortunately, this is neither practical nor convenient. People carry handguns because they are portable, easy to conceal, and present a better option than hand-to-hand combat--not because they are a good substitute for a rifle. So yes, if one needs firepower, a rifle is good, a mounted machine gun might be better, and a precision munition from a Spirit stealth bomber better still. In the mean time, all you can stick in your belt is a handgun and some people still want more than 7+1 capacity. That doesn't mean they spray and pray or are otherwise unprofessional. You can have 15 rounds in the magazine and still recognize the value of proper shot placement.
As for magazine reliability, the 15 round magazines of my Glock have very strong springs and I doubt I will have to worry about their ability to function for quite some time. Meanwhile, the ten round magazines that came with my USP continually fail--a problem that is reportedly absent with the standard capacity 12 rounders.

[Jack2427]

There are three primary factors in stopping power of any round:

1. Bullet placement

2. Bullet placement

3. Bullet placement

[Bill B.]

:) I have to find it a bit odd that seeming 75% of the posters on THR think the Browning HP in 9mm is the greatest handgun ever built and there is another 75% who think the 9mm is not nearly enough. Doesn't that add up a bit funny? :)

I use both the 9mm, the .40 & the .45 and would have to say accuracy is what concerns me more with any handgun than caliber. As long as you are accurate with your handgun that is number one!

[Javelin Man]

I gotte get me one of them Spirit Stealth bombers! :D Maybe I'll just settle for a Jeep with a mounted .50 cal on back to go get the groceries. I might be living in the wrong neighborhood if I need that, though.

Everyone's giving excellent observations and opinions and it gets down to 15 rounds of 9 mm is quite sufficient for anything outside of Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

Remember, 3/4's of Americans don't understand fractions, the other half doesn't care!

[Berg01]

I just get so confused. One guy says 9mm sucks, another says it doesn't.

9mm don't suck; you need to get to a point where you just trust your own intuitive sense about what works in a 9mm CCW. There is some terriffic 9mm defensive ammo out there these days; the Pro Load and Black Hills 124 gr +P GDHPs are awesome, and there are some excellent launch vehicles for the stuff, namely, my own P228.

[NineseveN]

Just get a Glock 31 in .357sig and have 15 rounds of Sig-goodness. Or give up on Capacity and just get a Sig .45. Or go for a compromise and go for an HK .40, or... Repeat after me:


"There is no wonder gun, all handguns suit certain body profiles, carrying needs and carrying concerns differently. It is an individula question. But, since NineseveN said so, find a way to carry a .45 and be done with all this inferior caliber nonsense." :neener:

Point is, it's not an exact science, and most of the info you need can be found by doing some simple google searches. You will likely have to handle and fire (which means borrowing or buying) multple firearms before you decide on your carry gun. Then you have to try different holsters and carry methods if you're going to carry. In the mean time, carry what you have as well as you can carry it.

[caz223]

I'll answer the original question.

G20 or G29.
If you choose to carry a G29 with a G20 mag, make sure it's reliable without the spacer.
Also, if you find that you can't use the factory sights, upgrade them. Simple enough.

[trickyasafox]

"what if you need 15 rounds but doubt 9mm?"

carry a spare mag. :) seriously, 8 rounds in the gun of 45 and another 7 on hand will make a lot of people feel warm and comfy

[Harv]

:banghead: The debate never ends..... there's no magic bullet.... There's no "DeathRay" and no "One Shot stopper"
it's the "Nut behind the trigger" and that's it. you shoot till the threat is down..period. it's bullet placement. I feel no more naked with My G17 then I would with My Kimber Polymer Hicap .45. Both will do the job if I do mind.

[GunAdmirer]

My informal tests have made me completely confident in a 9mm pistol with quality ammunition.

I like standard capacity magazines. They give you the ability to neutralize multiple targets and still have some ammo left over - with no magazine change necessary.

9mm pistols are usually smaller, lighter and easier to conceal. Most .45 acp higher capacity pistols are heavy and bulky. No thanks for concealed carry.

James bond carries a Walther .380 and never has to change magazines. Now that's high capacity! You might try to find one of those.

I like all types and calibers of pistols. Each has their purpose and place. However, I prefer the higher capacity 9mm pistols for concealed carry/personal defense.

To each his own, though.

[Vernal45]

What if you need high capacity but worry about 9mm?

If you need a high Capacity pistol, you are already in deep doodie.

If you worry about the 9mm, you need to practice more, put the little 9mm where it needs to go, and you will be alright.

[iiibdsiil]

Guys,

Yes, he does need to learn to use the search button effectively, but at least he is on our side, and he is trying to learn. Whether he is 14 or 40, he is here to learn, and he is at least asking questions. At least he isn't with the group that "knows" a .45 will blow an arm off even if you hit someone in the finger, but that is only after they fly 25 feet.

I don't blame him for doubting 9 mm after all the crap that is said about it on this very forum. And, about the more than 15 rounds thing, how many people here carry 2 guns and 3 knives on them at all times, each gun has 2 back up magazines and they are both bare minimum .45? I read about it all the time on here, maybe not exactly that, but you get my drift.

I'm with the revolver guys on this, 5 rounds is going to be enough. The way odds work, you would have about a 1 in 1,000,000,000,000 chance of getting into a gun fight and need more than 5 rounds. Those odds are pretty good for us, and there are many more things we do on a daily basis that have much higher odds of us dying, for example driving and flying. Besides that, if I needed more than 5 rounds, I would probably be crap outta luck anyways. But that's just because I'm not uber-tactical.

[BioDemon]

Get the biggest caliber you shoot best with. For my sister that's a 380 auto. For me it's a 40 S&W. IF you can shoot a 45 as accuratly as a 9mm then get the 45. Hand guns are for figting your way back to your long gun. No handgun hits and stops like a shotgun or rifle. When stuck with only your handgun- Hope it's the biggest one you shoot best with.

[Universal]

First off, to answer the original question. If you want 15 rounds but worry about the 9mm there are other choices. For example, the GLOCK 22, its magazine holds 15 rounds of .40S&W ammo. The GLOCK 21 holds 13 rounds of .45ACP so you have only "lost" two rounds. I am sure that there are many other handguns out there that have a magazine capacity of 15 or more in a caliber larger than the 9mm.

Now, I really would not worry much about the 9mm not being enough. It is a great round and I live in a country that does not restrict me to certain rounds or guns and I still choose the 9mm in my semi-auto handguns. I have owned, shot and carried 9mm, .40 and .45 chambered handguns and chose the 9mm because I shoot it better than the other two. Also, I have health problems that make it hard for me to shoot harder recoiling guns.

Last but not least, I totally agree with the point that serveral people posted here that 5 or 6 shots is more than enough to end most armed encounters. My carry gun is a Smith & Wesson model 640 .38 Special revolver.

[sturmruger]

Honestly I am getting sick of all your questions eurohacker. I am starting to think you are some new type of troll.

[shield20]

need/want higher capacity and a bigger caliber? Try a .40 S&W - usually can fill that roll nicely.
If you can carry and conceal a higher capacity pistol, that is good for you, any advantage is just that - an advantage. I myself would LOVE the extra rounds - "deep do do" or not, and especially in .40 over 9mm.

[bubbygator]

I'm quite satisfied with my bedside BHP with 2 17-round mags.




But I also have a compact 1911 with 5 7-round mags.




And a shotgun..... and a rifle......




I agree with others - make any choice & become competent with that choice.

[dpesec]

I have to agree with you. I never got into a fight in my entire life, but knowing I can defend myself and loved ones gives me a sense of peace when I walk away from trouble. Before, I always wondered what would I do if trouble followed me.

I hope and pray I never have to use any of my protection tools, but knowing they're there is a nice feeling.

[Chargar]

Jeeze..what a thread. I depend on and carry:

S&W Model 59 - 9mm
Colt Govt. Model - 45 ACP
Browning High-Power - 9mm
Colt Detective Special - 38 Special
Smith and Wesson Chief's Special - 38 Special
Smith and Wesson Model 64 - 38 Special
Walther PPK - 380

I have number of other handgun, but these are the ones I keep for social purposes and carry. I feel safe and well arms with any of them.

For to many folks spend far to much time worrying about and searching for the magic amulet that will defeat evil. Evil is defeated by a good man with A gun and knows when and how to use it.

[shield20]

Hmmm...I would love to know REALLY if the "The 9mm has killed Millions in wars all over the earth for the last 90 years."

Now I'm not talking about executing civlians/captives by shooting them in the back of the head (where a .22 would be just as effective), I mean as a combat weapon - proven in battle. "Millions" seems like SOO many. The 30-06 was our PRIMARY caliber for around 60years, as it was for other countries - did it "kill millions" during all that time and all those years and all those wars? Is there any way to know? We do know for sure the .45 has been battle proven over the years - in the Colt, and in the Thompson.

Are the any real numbers or facts (even anecdotal) for the success of the 9mm and other calibers?

[Brian Williams]

Why worry? Use good ammo and lots of practice.

[PX15]

High Capacity your choice?

Bersa Thunder "9" (high cap) - 17+1 = 18 (high enough?)

Price: Approximately $315.00 + tax. (Suggested retail approx. $445.00)

Reputation: Excellent for accuracy, 100% reliability. Lifetime warranty.

You might still want the Mk23, but at $2200? you might be a bit better off buying 5 Bersa Thunder 9 hicaps, and with the leftover buy a CAT Laser and Avenger holster. Should come out about the same. At the very least you wind up with 5 hicap mags, plus a laser and a holster.

Some people knock Bersa's, but not folks who own one.
Check out: www.BersaTalk.com

Just a thought.

Best Wishes.
JP ;)

[revolvergeek]

If you are on a budget and need literally lots of bang for your buck, get either a Glock 20 (15rnd 10mm) or a Glock 21 (13rnd 45).

Either one will let you blast the attacking Zombie hoardes like Miculek running steel plates! :evil:

[BioDemon]

MMMM, Get a high cap 45acp or 40 S&W. Or you might be happy with a 10mm or a 357sig. The 357sig is sort of a 9mm mag. I prefer the 40S&W and 45acp. The 10mm is great but they don't make one in a Sig. A note on the Bursa; My sister has one that jammed with any HP bullets that she tried. She traded it in for another one a Bursa Thunder 380 Auto, It must be heavey gr HP bullets or it too will jam. She dousn't have one in 9mm But I will never ever buy one! My Sig has never ever had one jam!

[lesjones]

To paraphrase <a href="http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/2326">George Carlin</a>, have you ever noticed that anyone with a lower capacity gun than you is dangerously underarmed, and anyone with a higher capacity gun than you is dangerously paranoid? :neener:

[NineseveN]

Good one Lesjones!

[GunAdmirer]

What are the zombie references about? I must be missing something. I've seen them on several threads on a few different forums. Just curious.

[GunGoBoom]

yeah, get a Witness Steel or Glock 20 in 10mm, then you've got 15 rounds of ammo with some real wallop - more rounds than a .45, and each round more powerful as well. Or as mentioned, a Para P14 with 14+1 of .45 acp. Or for the ultimate, a Para or other double stack shooting .45 super, or maybe an HK USP Elite with .45 super - now that's firepower my friends! :what:

zombie reference - what gun for the hypothetical attacking hordes of zombies - poking a wee bit of fun by implying it's overkill for what you'd need to stop a *homo sapiens* in a realistic scenario, both power and capacity.

[mikewilczynski]

with quality bullets I do not worry about a 9. for instance a Speer 124g GD in +p has approx 400 ft/lbs of KE at the muzzle. That is almost twice what a 38 sp has.

[BioDemon]

mmmmm, Ya, I still prefer 500ft lbs or better.