[robre]

Just wondering how you do this while supporting the idea of the citizen-soldier.

"The United States goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is a well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. If the United States took up all foreign affairs, it would become entangled in all the wars of interest and intrigue, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own soul."
President
John Quincy Adams

[Blackhawk]

Welcome to THR, robre! :D

Use more words.... :confused:

[robre]

I am wondering how you constitutionally justify the war because you are the few people that even continue to partially acknowledge the constitution's existance in America today.

[Justin]

I don't think it's so much about the Constitution as it is about entangling alliances.:(

[robre]

It isn't even about alliances. It's about using the U.N. to circumvent the Constitution. Even under this system of circumventation there are only two legal methods of war:

1. Use the U.N. and its resolutions to wage war.

This was a failure.

2. Wage war under the Constitution.

The constitution does not even provide for the national defense, but the common defense. Even if you argue that he may sell weapons to terrorists it's just speculation. I have yet to see any evidence offered that fits into the criteria accepted in any western justice system.

Why do we have to create an illegal method of waging war even under today's already illegal situation? How can you justify waging war with an international organization's doctrines using a national government that disagrees with that organizations decision?

[labgrade]

Easily enough, robre.

A slow erosion, through legislation, precidence & apathy, of what the constitution says.

Same thing for the bill of rights, jury nullification, et al - all works the same way.

& FWIW, we blew off the UN, BTW as it didn't go along with the plan. & not that I'm any fan of the UN, but they got too much baggage of their own to play with us this go 'round - oops.

[robre]

And the U.N. being bloated, which created the resolutions under which we now wage war, proves the constitutionality of the war how? Would our claimed cease-fire even exist without the U.N.? Both political parties just use the U.N. to push their own equally oppressive foriegn policies. Before, we would play the U.N.'s game while doing this. Giving Bush the ability to blow off the U.N. gives Clinton's clone the ability to do it 10 years down the road. Will you cry out then?

[Vladimir Berkov]

Also, remember that it was the Federalists (Adam's party) which were pretty much the only ones opposed to the war of 1812, which was both a war for empire and a war for domestic political ends.

[labgrade]

robre,

Huh?

I don't get "cease-fire."

I'm crying now, FWIW, although you might think it for other reasons.

A better discourse could be had by being less cryptic.

[robre]

Meanwhile the antifederalists claimed America should not even have a standing army. The Antifederalists handled this situation incorrectly and contradictory to their own beliefs. Should we allow this remanifestation of war for honor and interests continue to remain in America? Just because Adams was a "Federalist" doesn't mean he is disqualified from making true statements.

[robre]

Some claim that the first Gulf war never ended as justification for a second war. All I want is for someone to prove that this war is in any way constitutional.

[Vladimir Berkov]

Meanwhile the antifederalists claimed America should not even have a standing army. The Antifederalists handled this situation incorrectly and contradictory to their own beliefs. Should we allow this remanifestation of war for honor and interests continue to remain in America? Just because Adams was a "Federalist" doesn't mean he is disqualified from making true statements.

I never said it did.

I think you might have misunderstood my statement. I believe both the War of 1812 and our new war against Iraq, share several similar points.

For example, domestic silencing of opposition, a rejection of diplomacy, vague goals for the wars, coupled with weak reasons for the wars in the first place.

I hope that the war in Iraq isn't as disasterous as the War of 1812, however.

[Blackhawk]

All I want is for someone to prove that this war is in any way constitutional.
Why?

[labgrade]

Nope, no standing Army, but they did provide for a Navy.

Your choice as to exercize that distinction.

Lookit, robre, you make some decent claims, I might (or may not) agree, but why not just get to the quick of it & say what it is you're opposed/in favor of so we can rip it a part or agree with it?

Maybe I'm just too sleepy to play, or just dumb (insomnia is a wonderful debating tool. ;) )

Please do cite the pertinent section/verse of the constitution that says we can't do this, or we can - your choice - cite specifics so we can agrre, or tear it up.

In any event, we've so bastardized the constitution to make it unrecognizable from anything the founders would know - why even bring it up? ... but, I'm curious nonetheless.

[EJ]

Not that it has to be-- It takes place outside our boundries--:D

But--
The common defense is good enough for me--
We have had significant terorist activity--
And we have had terrorist attacks on US soil for nearly 30 years--
The Hostages in our embassy in Iran, WTC #1(bombing), The USS Cole, ETc ETc

Iraq peripherally at least -- supports terrorism--
SO-- It's not "illegal" nor prohibited under our constitution--

Clinton Bombed looking for a terrorist --Nobody cared--

Bush is Right and Legal--

[Diesle]

I smells me a fresh troll...

Diesle

[Tamara]

You know, I was as opposed as all get-out to this whole thing, but in the last couple of weeks I've found myself singing...

All we are sayy-ing
Is give war a chance!

[EJ]

I thought we could'a waited a bit too--
But it is the Gov's decision--and this is one I can live with--:p

And we have to stand up to terrorism-- period--
We never had this here on our shores before -- not really--
We are supposed to be the strongest nation in the world--
Everybody wants our money--\
Well it comes with a bit of authority and respect -- and we aren't gettin' that now -- so we have to educate those that don't understand--

I forget the exact EA Poe quote -- but -- basically --
"none attacks us with impunity"
That's the way it's gotta' be--
We didn't ask for terorism--
We gotta' act like the country we are--

[Vladimir Berkov]

So what does invading Iraq have to do with punishing the terrorists who attacked us?

[EJ]

Iraq supports and has supported terrorism and terrorists--
In example--
Hussain pays bounties to families of suicide bombers--
Etc Etc

That's the conection--

And
We needed to finish what Bushy's Dad was too weak to finish ten years ago --

That's more than enough --

I personaly believe there is more --much more --
but what we KNOW is enough

[Vladimir Berkov]

The terrorists which Iraq has marginally supported are not anti-American.

Remember, there are dozens of nations which support anti-American terrorists, and hundreds of terrorist groups worldwide.

Obviously, the fact that a nation supports terrorists which are not anti-American, much less belonging to the group that attacked us on 9/11, is not grounds for invasion.

[Sean Smith]

The Iraqi regime has been directly connected to Al-Qaeda. Secretary of State Colin Powell presented some of the evidence for that at the U.N. In February 2003, Secretary of State Colin Powell told the U.N. Security Council that Iraq was harboring a terrorist cell led by Abu Musab Zarqawi, a suspected al-Qaeda affiliate and chemical and biological weapons specialist. Powell said al-Zarqawi had both planned the October 2002 assassination of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan and set up a camp in Ansar al-Islam’s territory in northeastern Iraq to train terrorists in the use of chemical weapons. Powell added that senior Iraqi and al-Qaeda leaders had met at least eight times since the early 1990s.

Then there is always the coincidence, reported on that right-wing bastion... NPR ;) , that Saddam Hussein just happened to go into hiding right before the 9/11 attack took place. But that's almost certainly a coincidence, at least if you are determined to argue for Saddam Hussein's innocence at all costs.

Did Saddam Hussein order the attack? Probably not. Did he support the group that made it? Yes. Does he support other terrorists, too? That's not disputed by anybody. Among others, Iraq hosts the Abu Nidal Group, formerly the world's largest terrorist organization. Does he have weapons of mass destruction? Yes, even the "small print" of Hans Blix's reports said that. Does he have other prohibited weapons? Judging by the SCUD missiles he has just launched at Kuwait, I'd say "yes." Is he responsible for mass murders of Iraq's on population? Yes. And so on and so on...

Of course, if you consider Saddam Hussein's denials more credible than the statements of Colin Powell, I don't know quite what to say, except that your judgement of character and credibility is hopelessly skewed. Maybe if Powell orders the gassing of Philadelphia he'd be more on Hussein's credibility level. :rolleyes:

[buzz_knox]

Saw an interesting discussion the other evening. Some of the Al Queda members claim to be from Kuwait, yet there's no record of that person having existed prior to the Iraqi invasion. Coincidence?

[shooten]

Here's an excellent article on the links between Iraq and Al-Queda.

http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/207

YMMV,

Scott

[Blackhawk]

Saw an interesting discussion the other evening. Some of the Al Queda members claim to be from Kuwait, yet there's no record of that person having existed prior to the Iraqi invasion. Coincidence?
Excellent point, Buzz.

The Iraqis used the Kuwaiti offices, equipment, etc., to "create" all kinds of "new" people with full ID documents, etc., then guess where these "new" people began to turn up...? :rolleyes:

[Vladimir Berkov]

The Iraqi regime has been directly connected to Al-Qaeda. Secretary of State Colin Powell presented some of the evidence for that at the U.N. In February 2003, Secretary of State Colin Powell told the U.N. Security Council that Iraq was harboring a terrorist cell led by Abu Musab Zarqawi, a suspected al-Qaeda affiliate and chemical and biological weapons specialist. Powell said al-Zarqawi had both planned the October 2002 assassination of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan and set up a camp in Ansar al-Islam’s territory in northeastern Iraq to train terrorists in the use of chemical weapons. Powell added that senior Iraqi and al-Qaeda leaders had met at least eight times since the early 1990s.

Directly connected? I don't think so. Even your own evidence, clearly states that this cell is not an Al Quaeda cell, the person leading it is SUSPECTED of being an Al Quaeda affiliate. All the other evidence is circumstantial at best.

Contrast this with Pakistan, which we know for a FACT supported Al Quaeda and the Taliban prior to our military involvement in the region, and is currently harboring Taliban and Al Quaeda refugees from Afghanistan.

It is clear that Hussein supports a couple terrorist groups. That is not in question. However, it is not yet proven that he directly or indirectly aided in the 9/11 attacks, or that he supports Al Quaeda.

[Sean Smith]

Powell added that senior Iraqi and al-Qaeda leaders had met at least eight times since the early 1990s.

Miss this part? :rolleyes:

[Tamara]

The terrorists which Iraq has marginally supported are not anti-American.

You know, I'm not sure that the mosquito that bit me last night was hatched in the birdbath, either, but I'm still gonna hit it with pesticides. ;)

[Blackhawk]

You know, I'm not sure that the mosquito that bit me last night was hatched in the birdbath, either, but I'm still gonna hit it with pesticides.Stop using common sense in these discussions, Tamara. You know it just irritates them.... :D

[robre]

>The case for forcibly removing Saddam Hussein and his Baathist Party from power in Iraq could not be clearer.

The Baathist party will not be gone, just as the Taliban and its philosophies have only strengthened anywhere outside of Kabul.

>On the two charges that matter most to the American people -- Hussein's collusion with Al Qaeda's global terrorist enterprise and Iraq's ongoing development of chemical and biological weapons -- the growing body of publicly available evidence offers sufficient proof of Baghdad's mendacious designs to warrant the immediate use of force. President Bush's classified stash surely offers more; it is time for him to use it.

I like that he calls it an enterprise. It truly is a company. Much like the mafia or similar crime organizations operate. Like the Mafia al Queda uses, abuses, and corrupts governments, but is not supported by them. Note that not a single terrorist on the FBI's list was caught or killed during the entire War on Afghanistan. After the war, the FBI and the Pakistani police forces did catch a terrorist in Pakistan.

>Since 1998, when United Nations weapons inspectors were forced to leave Iraq, Hussein has rebuilt an intricate, clandestine global procurement system to funnel banned materials and technologies into his weapons programs.

So you just say this and expect it to exist? This is what I am talking about when I say "the accusations lack any respect for the western system of justice."

>From 1998 to 2001, the Los Angeles Times' Bob Drogin has reported, a private Indian engineering exporter used front companies in Dubai and Jordan to supply Hussein's scientists with 3 metric tons of atomized aluminum powder, a key ingredient for making rocket propellant. National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice referred to this illegal transfer in a New York Times opinion piece, citing Iraqi deceit in not declaring "its manufacture of specific fuel for ballistic missiles it claims not to have."

I can buy atomized aluminum off the internet:
http://unitednuclear.com/chem.htm
It makes great rocket propellant, and fireworks too.

It does not how ever prove that he is using it to make missiles he should not have. Just like having a gun does not prove that you are about to commit a crime. There are more missiles used in war than just large surface to surface missiles.

>The same company shipped titanium centrifugal pumps and membranes used in constructing chemical weapons through its Middle East shell companies to a major Iraqi chlorine manufacturing plant. Titanium pumps enabled Hussein to churn out chlorine, a precursor chemical for everything from mustard and chlorine gas to blister and nerve agents, at much higher rates than anything Iraq could have hoped to use for civilian purposes. Then, in a blatant example of Hussein's deception and lies, the plant suddenly became "inoperable" in December as the new weapons inspectors came in.

CHLORINE, OH GOD!11111 DUAL USE TECHNOLIGIES!1111 If this is even considered as evidence of terrorism or non-compliance, and is placed at the top of an article like it is a major point, then I am saddened by the void this point brings up. The pumps really don't have anything to do with the actual production of the chlorine. We have known he has chlorine factories. Even the president does not use them as proof of wrong doing.

Chlorine is used in thousands of applications, maybe even in the 10 thousands.

Just the Ethylene dichloride branch includes:
+Isopropanolamines (adhesives, coatings, corrosion inhibitors, cosmetics/ personal care products, crop production chemicals, neutralizing agents, plastics, surfactants)
+Propylene oxide which is used in making polyurethene which in turn makes shoe uppers, heels, auto bumpers, insulation, brush bristles and spandex fibers, adhesives, sealants and caulking agesnt, paints, varnishes, coatings, foam cushions and mattresses.
+Propylene glycol ethers which makes coatings, paints, solvents, cleaners, intermediates, brake fluids, mining fluids.
+Hydroxypropylacrylate which makes coatings
+Propylene glycols which is used in making lubricants, metal working fluids, rubber, plastics
+and finaly polyproylene glycols which are used in plastics, solvents, coatings, paint, food additives, plasticizers, antifreeze and coolants, flavoring extracts, soft-drink syrups, lotions, creams, suntan lotions, brake fluids, pharmaceuticals, crop protection chemicals and helps in natural gas treatment.

Ethylene dichloride is only one class of chlorine containing compounds. There is also vinyl chloride, vinylidene chloride, dichloroethyl ether, ethyl chloride, propylene chlorohydrin, methylene chloride, chloroform, carbon tetrachloride, benzoyl chloride, chlorotoluenes, chlorophenol, etc.

This was taken from Science, Vol. 261 pp. 152-154, 1993, my journalistic integrity involves me citing sources AND providing evidence that they are even credible. I wonder when this changed?

>Intelligence sources in the region indicate that Al Qaeda cells in Dubai may have financed the shipments using a traceless, underground money transfer system called hawala that is often employed by Islamist terrorists.

Dubai is another country. Why does this have anything to do with Iraq? Dubai is like the UAE: http://www.dwtc.com/

>Other troubling data about links between Hussein and Al Qaeda have surfaced recently as well. During an October speech in Cincinnati, Bush identified a senior Al Qaeda leader as having received medical treatment in Baghdad in the months after allied bombing in Afghanistan. Since then, confessions that Jordanian police obtained from two Al Qaeda operatives accused of assassinating U.S. diplomat Laurence Foley in Amman, Jordan, show that they received money and weapons from this same man, Abu Musab Zarqawi. Zarqawi, a Jordanian with expertise in chemical and biological weapons design, is reportedly the No. 3 Al Qaeda official. He has lived at an Al Qaeda safe house in Afghanistan where traces of the poison ricin were found last year.

He went to an Iraqi hospital. I hope to God we didn't train the terrorists how to attack us. Oh, we did. Does the use of a nations resources really qualify as proof that you supported them, or even wanted to?

>Zarqawi has been tied to a northern Iraqi terror group backed by Hussein to oppose Kurdish rebels. At minimum, Hussein's regime provided Zarqawi with safe harbor and free passage into and out of Iraq. In the worst case, Hussein provided chemical and biological agents directly to a senior Al Qaeda leader.

He's in northern Kurdistan. Kurdistan is in no way controled by Saddam. Northern Kurdistan is patrolled by the United States Air Force as it is a no fly zone. It is also patroled by the Kurdish Democratic Party. http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0315/csmimg/0315p9a.jpg Note how the no fly zone has absolutely nothing to do with some B.S. political doctrine and is only to protect the Kurdish people that were so hurt in the Halabja gas attacks. Oh, Halabja isn't even covered by the no fly zone. Hey, maybe the KDP and the USAF are terrorists. They let them in, right? Obviously this is as idiotic as the conclusion he makes.

>British intelligence reportedly believes that Zarqawi sent recipes for making ricin from raw materials to Al Qaeda cells in London and perhaps other European cities. Algerian terrorists said to be connected to Al Qaeda and the northern Iraqi group, several of whom worked for food preparation companies, were arrested in London three weeks ago.

"Intelligence reportedly believes?"

>How much clearer does the picture have to be before the international community's refusal to dismantle terrorism's nerve center results in another catastrophic attack against civilians? Iraq and Al Qaeda are working together. Hussein, the Arab nationalist, continues to build and stockpile dangerous chemical and biological weapons. His messianic partner, Osama bin Laden, is churning out brainwashed legions of homicidal maniacs to carry these weapons to their targets worldwide.

Just because you call him his partner does not make it so and Osama does not want to be Jesus unless you are claiming that Jesus also churns out brainwashed legions of homicidal maniacs.

>Whether the U.S. disarms Iraq now or later or never, Al Qaeda remains bent on destroying the civilized world, and Hussein is its chief enabler. Detoxifying Iraq is not a separate, unrelated thread but the most important next step in the global war on terrorism.

We are al Queda's chief enabler. We give them all the justification they need to give the people of the Middle East. Perhaps you should read this: http://www.observer.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

[Sean Smith]

robre,

How does it feel to have your head in the sand? :rolleyes:

[Vladimir Berkov]

robre,

How does it feel to have your head in the sand?

An unreasoned and unintelligent reply to a very well-reasoned post.

[robre]

Do you read anything, or do you just act smug and pretend like you did? I at least read the article he posted and analyzed it.

Before you ever question why people do not take the second amendment more seriously look at yourself.

[robre]

Support Democracy in Iraq: http://dear_raed.blogspot.com/

Fundamentalists only get worse through war and sanctions. China proved this. Cuba proved this. Germany proved this. And now we will prove this in Iraq by transforming this once moderate state into a bunch of raging fundamentalists. Why? Because they can promise them something democracy can't. That they will be poor in life, but rich in heaven. That they can reform the government to get them just enough food for them to survive, rather than the wealth of democracy later.

[Sean Smith]

EDITED in order to be nicer. :neener:

Fundamentalists only get worse through war and sanctions.

Yes, that's obviously what happend to Germany and Japan. Their current goverments are so much worse than the Nazis and a god-Emperor they used to have. :rolleyes:

[robre]

The sanctions placed on Japan and Germany were small after World War II. We learned our lesson after our involvment in WWI and the sanctions that placed full blame of WWI on Germany's head. The debts we placed upon Germany had no way of being paid off so the German economy went into massive state of inflation where it cost 1 million marks to buy a loaf of bread. Hitler rose to power because he said he could fix everything.

[modifiedbrowning]

Actually,robre, the reparations imposed upon Germany after WWI were largely the work of the French. The US was not responsible for the rise of Hitler as a result of war reparations.

[modifiedbrowning]

Actually,robre, the reparations imposed upon Germany after WWI were largely the work of the French. The US was not responsible for the rise of Hitler as a result of war reparations.

[Vladimir Berkov]

The French, but also the British and the Americans.

Wilson grossly mishandled the peace process.

[publius]

We give them all the justification they need to give the people of the Middle East. Perhaps you should read this: http://www.observer.co.uk/worldview...,845725,00.html


OK, I did. Let's see...

He opens by saying we're the aggressors, the partial theme being, if only we'd leave them alone, everything would be OK. That theme lasts all the way to the end of the first quotation, where it gets replaced by this one:

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

OK. I disbelieve. Allah is calling Muslims to fight me. It doesn't matter if I disbelieve here, there, or anywhere. It doesn't matter what I do. All that matters is that I disbelieve. Such disbelief is, as you can see, defined by the Koran as "fighting in the cause of Taghut."

What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

If the line is busy, prepare to die.

And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

Uh, it seems obvious that he meant to say "equality between all Muslim people." No sale. Line's still busy.

We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

You borrowed money to buy a car or house? Prepare to die.

You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins.

Hmm. So the Jihad is a war against Hooters? Odd that Osama and NOW have such common ground, but I still don't like either of them. I do like Hooters girls, though. :D

You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

I'm getting further and further from being a believer with each passing word, and I've skipped most of the really outrageous statements, like how we approve of incest and we invented and spread AIDS to serve Satan.

a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'.

The freedom and democracy that Osama calls to is for himself and for Muslims only; as for the rest of the world, die, disbelievers. Man, sometimes I really, really wish I could curse around here.

In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

A billion monkeys with a billion typewriters, or something...He finally said something with which I agree!

f you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him.

OK. I'll prepare.

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

I hope Osama's family is rejoicing some time real soon. :fire:

Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

Well, I for one knew before that second Koran passage he led off with, but thanks for confirming it anyway.