[nobby]

Today, I bought 1000 rds of surplus Guatemalan .223 for $100 at a local gunshow. It was in a sealed box so I couldn't inspect it before purchase. When I finally opened it up, the rounds were really dirty. A few were corroded and some had dented cases, so I tossed those. But the remaining 900 or so all have a dry-ish, dirty film on them. None of them are smooth and shiny and I can already tell they will not cycle well if shot as-is.

Is it possible to "clean" loaded ammo? If so, what materials do I need to do the job? Again, not trying to make the cases shiny but I want to get rid of that dirty film that turns my fingers green.

Please let me know.

Nobby

[armorplate]

I suppose you don't reload, so maybe you know someone who does? Have him clean them in his vibratory case cleaner. It will take awhile, onless he has a large capacity like the Dillon CV 2001.

[Mannlicher]

I wouldn't bother. That Guat stuff sure shoots dirty too. Get ready for a lot of rifle cleaning.

[enfield]

I've used auto rubbing compound on a rag and chucked the ammo in a cordless drill.

[wingman]

I've used auto rubbing compound on a rag and chucked the ammo in a cordless drill.
Oh, Oh, I don't like the sound of that. Somehow that just can't be good. ;)

[Deavis]

tumbler with walnut to take off most of the "grime" followed by corncob to polish it if you want it to look pretty. Dump it in there and let it run overnight.

[sako_75]

everything I've read says loaded ammo in a tumbler is a no no. The tumbling could start to break down the powder or the coatings on it and actually change the burning rate.
I use Never Dull applied buy hand to clean loaded ammo, but 1000 rounds is a lot to by hand.

[The Bushmaster]

Aah Sako_75...A breath of fresh air. You are absolutely right. And we will get lots of non-believers for this statement. One should never tumble loaded cartridges. Not only does it remove the coating from the grains, it will also turn the granuals to a smaller powder and definitely change the burn rate. :scrutiny:

[Deavis]

sako, this subject has been covered before and it has been proven that tumbling loaded ammo does absolutely nothing to it. There are plenty of threads on here discussing it with one of the best by Bluesbear

I've tumbled over a million (1,000,000) rounds in Thumblers Model B tumblers,
using ¾-1 tablespoon kerosene per cycle in corn cob media. I am sorry but I cannot dilvulge the name of one of the world's largest small arms ammunition manufacturers from which I learned this trick.

I'd guess 90% was handgun ammmo but the rest was pointy bullet rifle ammo in .223, .308 & 30-06.

Never had a kaboom OR a Misfire. I had a 20-1 or 50-1 guarantee and never had to pay up.

There was also someone who did an experiment where they compared the specs of untumbled to tumbled (I think he tumbled it for a week in a Dillon tumbler) and found absolutely no difference in the performance. I can't find that link but I'm sure someone on here has it.

You do realize that powder is coated in graphite by... you guessed it... tumbling it.

[The Bushmaster]

And, you guessed it, they add the graphite to the tumbling mix to do just that. It's called "grazing". Now if you do not add the graphite............. :scrutiny: As has been noted in other strings. There are other writers and authors that print BS. As I don't have a reason and will never tumble loaded ammunition (if it's that bad, I will disassemble and disgard it. I value my firearms) I guess I will never be able to prove it. A lot of my experience is from manufacturing my own black powder when I was much younger. :cool:

[BigSlick]

And, you guessed it, they add the graphite to the tumbling mix to do just that

I only buy powder that has some of the original graphite left on it from the mfr. tumbling process. This way tumbling ammo to remove lube is ok :neener:

I've dropped loaded rounds in the vibratory tumbler every time I've used lube, ever since I got my first one, back in the 80's.

I don't run it for a week, usually about 15 minutes does the trick nicely.

BigSlick

[The Bushmaster]

BigSlick...I see no problem with tumbling them for 10 to 15 minutes, but the guy, nobby, will have to tumble those thousand rounds of bargin cartridges much longer to clean them for firing in his firearm. I just don't see where that is a bargin when you are taking a chance of damaging a firearm or even worse. :scrutiny: Copper jackets=no lube=no need to tumble after loading. Oh. Did I mention, minimizing lead poisoning also. :D

:neener: Back atcha BigSlick :evil:

[sako_75]

There are two schools on tumbling loaded ammo. One says it’s ok the other says its not. I can find published information from reliable sources for each. It looks like this issue, is one of those, that no one will convince you that the opposite of what you do is OK. So some of you may continue to tumble loaded ammo, I will stick to tumbling empty cases.

[The Bushmaster]

Sako_75...You may have turned a long and heated debate into "the end". ;) But, I have to agree about the two schools of thought on this subject. Which means no winners. And I vote to not tumble loaded cases. :scrutiny:

[BigSlick]

Did I mention, minimizing lead poisoning also

Ahem... drum roll please...

*MY* loaded ammo doesn't leak lead :D

Whether any of us agree on tumbling loaded rounds or not, I would still take the stuff back to the guy who sold it to me and ask for a replacement case, or credit toward another type of ammo. 100 culls out of a case, with MUCH of the rest of it looking marginal doesn't make me happy no matter how cheap it was.

Lyman says never tumble loaded ammo, RCBS says it's ok...

Does anyone have any first hand experience with a problem as a result of tumbling loaded ammo ?

I tumble mine in corn cob, in a seperate tumbler (Berry's) from the one I use to clean up range brass (Lyman), and never mix the two. The tumbler for range brass is filled with walnut.

I don my level 4 contamination suit when I fill the Lyman, wear a respirator and hold my breath. For the Berry's I wear flip flops and a thong :D

BigSlick

[Jeeper]

Factory ammo is tumbled

Commercial reloads are tumbled

If they do in then I cant see why anyone wouldnt.

[The Bushmaster]

I'm not sure that I need to tumble my loaded cartridges. I have people at the range that complain that my brass is too bright as they put on their sun glasses as it is now :neener: . As I own a Lyman tumbler and my main loading manual, of many, is a Lyman 48th edition. I will not tumble loaded cartridges.... :banghead:

[Deavis]

I'll tell you what, we can put this to rest right here on this board. I'll put together a 40S&W load with whatever powder you choose. Each case will be sized, trimmed, and reamed to ensure uniformity. I'll load 50 rounds up of it and place 1/2 in a tumbler for a week. In addition, I'll tumble 25 factory loaded WWB rounds along with them for a baseline. I'll disassemble 5 of them, photograph the powders, clock the remainder, and then post the results here. I'll even break it into splits by the day if you want and we can track the "degradation" trend that you say we'll observe.

So, name you load specs, what time intervals you want to test, and I'll take it from there. I'm getting a fresh batch of powder and bullets in 2 weeks and this would be a great addition to my other experiments I'm loading up. Just so you don't worry, I crunch semiconductor process experiments everyday for my job so I'm very good at keeping things straight :) Heck, I'll even put the results into our data analysis software to give us some pretty graphs to look at.

If somebody will volunteer to host the data results, that would help out a ton.

[The Bushmaster]

And we'll still not convince anyone and the arguement will go on. Do what you will and for Gods sake have fun doing it.

[JA]

If you see cows in a field eating grass they are "grazing".

Adding graphite to gun powder during mfg. is called "glazing".

[TC66]

Walnut husk in a tumbler.

[Deavis]

And we'll still not convince anyone and the arguement will go on. Do what you will and for Gods sake have fun doing it

:scrutiny: We won't convince anyone because they are unreasonable and are incapable of changing their notions about their own infallibility or because the experiment I propose is somehow flawed?

This is a simple experiment that can clear up any questions on this subject. I'm proposing a scientific experiment that will be agreed by all, documented ad naseum, and peer reviewed right here on this board. I'll document every step I take and accompany it with enough pictures to make you sick. This is exactly how you prove an idea is right or wrong.

We can photograph the powder itself to see if it is harmed physically. I can probably get pictures of it under powerful optical scopes to show you exactly what it looks like after tumbling. If the powder is indeed broken down then it should be apparent in the microscopic pictures and in the chrony data.

You have nothing to lose here, this is a great opportunity to find out if you are right or wrong. If you are right, kudos to you. If you are wrong, who cares? We all learn something valuable and have a very credible study to cite supporting our case.

That is unless you are just too stubborn to take a chance on being wrong, in which case you lose even more credibility than actually being wrong. You can have fun and be wrong at the same time. If I'm wrong, I'll enjoy it the whole time because experiments like these are what make reloading fun.

[BigSlick]

Thanks Deavis :)

I think your 'experiment' will prove to be one of the longest running posts on the 'net. Everyone wants to hold on to their beliefs, but concrete fact *will* change some minds - and reinforce the opinions of others.

The use of a microscope and interval sampling is excellent. No arguing with fact.

I say go for it - and THANKS! again for your efforts.

Once we convince everyone of the facts about tumbling ammo, then maybe we can save a few fellow THR reloaders from dying from LEAD POISONING :D

BigSlick

[Deavis]

Maybe I'll even splurge and buy some Starline brass for this so nobody claims that the Winchester brass I normally use corrupted the experiment. You know, the brass used by everyone but Starline has these itty bitty imperfections placed in them at the factory that degrade the performance of the rounds. It is a conspiracy to keep us from becoming expert shots. Oh yeah, I forgot, the rounds given to LEOs don't have these imperfections either, that way when the revolution comes we'll miss and they won't! ;)

Like I said before, if someone can host the results, I'd appreciate it.

[Jeeper]

Deavis,

I think that your idea is great! I will post all the pictures and data on my website if you like so that we can have a permant "hard copy" of it somewhere for people to point to in the future. It will be hard to satisfy everyone though. I can forsee several problems already:

Ball vs extruded powder
Air gap in the case
Time tumbled
Age of powder

I really doubt that however perfect you do it that everyone will accept it. A bunch of different rounds with various powders and so forth will improve the results though. I think it would be nice to have this with proof somewhere on the web.

[Deavis]

Jeeper,

Thanks. I've already considered many of the variables you've mentioned. I am going to address them as follows. Any ideas people have are welcome, that is what peer review is all about!


Ball vs extruded powder:
Use Blue Dot (large flake), WW231 (ball), and AA#9 (TI-ZINY!). Other suggestions?

Air gap in the case - Except for the round being fired, I could fill the cases up to a certain volume of each powder and compare it that way. For the rounds being fired, since they are being compared to themselves, it becomes relative to a degree, i.e. you can only affect volume so much with each powder before you are under/overcharged. However, a volumetric comparison, at say 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and full (have to take into account volume occupied by bullet) wouldn't be difficult at all.

Time tumbled - will extract samples from the tumbler at 1 day intervals

Age of powder - we can assume that powder stored under normal conditions will not have degraded to the point that it should make a difference. It is commonly accepted that modern smokeless powder is very stable. Remember, each powder is compared to itself for parametric data so NBD there.

I'm going to piggy back this on some other experiments I'm running. Maybe you could host some of the other data? I'm trying to see if I can get some definitive data on the sorted v. unsorted v. trimmed v. reamed v. primer type v. every other Internet "myth" out there. The question I want to answer is whether it actually makes a difference in a handgun cartridge at a reasonable range. It will take me a while to put everything together once I get my components restocked so I'll PM you when I get the first sets of data from the case prep done.

[Jeeper]

Deavis,

I'll host whatever you want.

I figure you had already thought of those since they are intuitive. The air gap or volumetric one would be interesting to me. A compressed load versus a 1/2 filled load would be an interesting one. If the powder cant move then it shouldnt change. Rifle then should be more stable versus light pistol loads like I use. I dont think any powder will change much(or at all in results on chrono). Let me know what you want me to host and I'll make up some new pages for it on my website.

Keith

[The Bushmaster]

Oops Sorry JA (another english teacher) I meant "glazing".

[scout26]

Hey Nobby,

Why don't you head over the Handgun section and ask "Which is better 9mm or .45 ???"

:evil:

[RecoilRob]

Seeing as Ball powder is probably the least likely to be affected by tumbling, I would suggest some extruded IMR as the test medium.

And, using 40 S&W really cuts down the amount of sample data. So long as we are looking at a scientific experiment, why don't you tumble a container half full of, say, IMR 4350 and then closely examine it afterwards?

Most rifle rounds SHOULD be 90% full of powder so the tumbling would have less effect on a loaded round than the test 50% container.

For demonstration purposes, it would be nice to create a 'worst case scenerio' to see if extended tumbling actually crushes or degrades the individual powder grains.

After extended tumbling, if you would want to load some rounds for firing....more power to you but there are SO many variables that if a small amount of powder damage HAS happened, it might get lost in the statistics. And, you might have a bad thing happen to your test gun which would NOT be good!

Microscopic examination of the tumbled grains vs. control would end the debate for me. Thanks for your efforts.

[Deavis]

RecoilRob,

The only container that makes sense to tumble is a piece of brass with a bullet it in. Tumbling powder in anything else wouldn't be applicable to the question at hand. I picked 40 S&W because that is what I was planning to load next and it has a decent volume. I don't load rifle, so the closest we can get to a bottleneck would be a 357 Sig unless someone want to loan me a set of dies and a few bullets that I'll return at the end of the test.

SO many variables that if a small amount of powder damage HAS happened, it might get lost in the statistics.

That really is the point though, right? Even if there is some small amount of damage, can you actually tell the difference when you shoot the round? If not, then the damage is of no consequence for that application. You expect that precision rifles at long range will show issues first but in this case I'm only interested in handguns because that is what I shoot.

[Paul "Fitz" Jones]

As a commercial police reloader I have tumbled all my live pistol ammo in a cement mixer with a bit of kerosene to leave a protective coating on the brass and lead bullets. I learned this from my mentor in the early 1970's and kept it a secret till he sold his business for a million dollars.

He loaded and tumbled 3 million rounds of police and commercial ammo a month and he was Ron Gromak of Gromak Industries of Santa Maria California.

His tumbler was 3 1/2 feet wide and 7 feet tall and he sold me his 3 ton lead smelter when he built himself a 25 ton capacity lead smelter. When I sold my business and retired I sold the small smelter back to him. I still have one of his delivery trucks a post office propane powered truck with a lift gate when he replaced it with an 18 wheel ammo delivery truck.

It is an interesting sight to see a gigantic steel warehouse built around and over his home and to see a stack of over 3 million primers on skids at once.

[Jeeper]

Paul,

Even with comments from experts like you people still dont believe it. Maybe some science might prove it to them.

[Rockstar]

There's absolutely no reason to tumble handgun rounds as an experiment as to the effect of tumbling on loaded rifle rounds. The experiment is nonsensical. Since MOST of us don't lube straightwall handgun rounds, the practical use of the experiment's data is virtually nonexistent.

[Vern Humphrey]

Getting back on topic, I found this on another website:

Here is a tip for Guns and Shooting Online readers who want to clean their brass but don't have a tumbler.

First, wash your cases with a solution of three parts water and one part toilet cleaning liquid. Put this in a plastic container, dump in the cases to be cleaned, and slosh it around for about three to five minutes. Then dump out the cases and rinse them well. Dry thoroughly.

The final step is to get a cotton pillow cover. Put a few pounds of corncob and polisher into the pillow cover. After washing and drying your cases, put them into the pillow cover and zip it closed or make a knot, leaving about 1/4 empty space.

Then put the filled pillow cover into a clothes dryer. Set the dryer for minimum heat (or none) and let it run for about 45 minutes. When you remove your brass it will have been cleaned and polished without a tumbler.

[Jeeper]

There's absolutely no reason to tumble handgun rounds as an experiment as to the effect of tumbling on loaded rifle rounds. The experiment is nonsensical. Since MOST of us don't lube straightwall handgun rounds, the practical use of the experiment's data is virtually nonexistent.

I would say that if you went by shear numbers that a large percentage (if not most) handgun ammo is lubed. Carbide dies or not many people use lubes like hornady one shot. Most competitive shooters(the ones who shoot most of the ammo) also lube since they know that it makes their progressive press run easier.

[The Bushmaster]

But Vern... That is a method for cleaning unloaded brass. Not loaded cartridges :D

[BigSlick]

also lube since they know that it makes their progressive press run easier

Agreed.

Try it once and you will never go back.

BigSlick

[griz]

Thanks for the offer Deavis. I believe it will show no difference but there is nothing like real data to settle the issue. I can loan you the 357 Sig dies if you are interested in trying that caliber. I don't load 40 but it would stike me as being typical enough to satisfy a reasonable person.

As for variables, you mentioned getting different brass. I don't care about which brand it is (as long as it's the same) but I think new brass would be better. Not to give you an excuse to spend more money ;) but to ensure that a week of tumbling will not loosen some powder residue from the inside surface of the case. I realize that may be more realistic, but if it changes the velocity then it may look like powder breakdown when it isn't. I am assuming that like most of us you have no way to measure pressure directly but velocity would suit me fine.

For demonstration purposes, it would be nice to create a 'worst case scenerio' to see if extended tumbling actually crushes or degrades the individual powder grains.

I believe Deavis is looking for a worst case scenario, but what would that be? Big case and small sharge? Almost full case? Flake, ball, extruded? If you have a suggestion as to the worst case condition for loaded ammo this is the time to bring it up.

[Deavis]

Griz:

I've got 357 Sig dies and could load that if we were interested in bottleneck instead of straightwall. I mentioned above the idea for comparing some different powder types and then powder types. I think the most important thing will be the chrony data and then pictures under a microscope.

If someone wants to see a rifle caliber with a rod powder, I'd be happy to do it but I gave up the rifle dies I had since I don't shoot enough rifle to make it worthwhile for me at this point.

There's absolutely no reason to tumble handgun rounds as an experiment as to the effect of tumbling on loaded rifle rounds. The experiment is nonsensical. Since MOST of us don't lube straightwall handgun rounds, the practical use of the experiment's data is virtually nonexistent.

For people who think the experiment is nonsensical, you don't need to keep
responding with useless comments. Unless you can come up with a scientific reason why this won't prove or disprove that tumbling affects powder (which most of you claim it does) granules. In that case, please feel free to share your ideas to improve it. Before you comment, please try to open your mind up a smidge.

Just so you guys know, it will be a few weeks until I can get the cases, bullets, and everything in order. After that it will take me a little time to get it chronoed, get the powder under a microscope and get photographs. I don't think I can convince anyone to put powder into an SEM, heh :p

[griz]

I would be happy with the results from a 40 cal alone. But if there is someone who will only believe the results if the test includes a large stick powder, I can donate a some 243 brass if you want to fool with it. I think it would be cheaper to buy a pound of powder there than pay the haz-mat fee, so you would have to get some 4350 or other suitable powder.

[Deavis]

Griz,

I've got some stick powders here that are left over from when I loaded some rifle ammo for a friend. I'll throw them into a case at different volumes and see how they do as well over time. The volume/tumble time experiment is simple because I don't have to do anything really special to the brass since +/- a few thousandths of an inch is not going to change a "1/2 full" case significantly. For chrono data, it will matter for consistency.

[Rockstar]

Although I think the experiment is nonsensical, I'll check back and give your data a once-over. ;) And I'd bet that, in shear numbers, most handgun brass isn't lubed.

[Jeeper]

Although I think the experiment is nonsensical, I'll check back and give your data a once-over.

Why? What would make you a believer in the experiment? All that is happening is powder moving across itself in a confined space. Rifle loads are usually more full than pistol thus allowing less powder to move. Is there something else happening?

And I'd bet that, in shear numbers, most handgun brass isn't lubed.

That is really hard to say. It would depend on the big private reloaders. Like Fitz said, he tumbled and so did his mentor when they loaded. Commercial reloaders also do.

Plus if the experiment applies to rifle then basically all rifle reoaders lube.

[nobby]

Ok, thanks for the replies.

[Walkalong]

Here is a much newer thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=498890&page=3) discussing the merits of tumbling live ammo.

[editingfx]

I tumble the ammo, the mags, and the pistol together in a 50/50 mix of walnut/corncob, with a touch of NuFinish. That way it all comes out nice n' shiny. Usually the first few rounds get rid of any leftover cob from the chamber & barrel. Smoke has a nice nutty smell too.

[EddieNFL]

I'll tell you what, we can put this to rest right here on this board. I'll put together a 40S&W load with whatever powder you choose. Each case will be sized, trimmed, and reamed to ensure uniformity. I'll load 50 rounds up of it and place 1/2 in a tumbler for a week. In addition, I'll tumble 25 factory loaded WWB rounds along with them for a baseline. I'll disassemble 5 of them, photograph the powders, clock the remainder, and then post the results here. I'll even break it into splits by the day if you want and we can track the "degradation" trend that you say we'll observe.

Been done numerous times over many years. No detectable difference in appearance, chronograph numbers or accuracy.

[lykoris]

:D :D :D The OP asks a question back in 2005 and says thanks for the replies almost 5 years later :D :D :D


Priceless :evil:

[dagger dog]

And only 38 posts!

[GMFWoodchuck]

Just wipe the ammo. It'll be fine. And wash afterwards. You should be doing that anyway to avoid getting lead into your system.