[Newton]

The wife did day number 1 of her 2 day CCW training in Phoenix today and the instructors were "1911 or die" fanatics. To make matters worse, she is the ONLY revolver shooter out of 48 attendees (with her 642), including 9 women.

Apparently there are a few things that we all didn't know:

1. Revolvers have the same number of components as automatics

2. An automatic can still function after the failure of it's components, a revolver is useless from any single broken component.

3. You need hi cap mags in a shoot out.

4. You shouldn't carry a revolver because the police don't use them, so they must be useless.

I hope you all learned something <sarcasm off>

[Hkmp5sd]

As I have been a NRA certified instructor for over 20 years and teaching the Florida CCW classes since they began in 1987 and I also carry a revolver as a CCW weapon on occasion.

The one thing that I never do is criticize someone on their choice of CCW weapon. There are way too many variables and there is no "perfect" gun, so it is strictly a matter of personal choice. Even a .22LR revolver that they will actually carry is better than a 1911 that they leave in the car because it is too heavy to tote around 24/7.

[roscoe]

Where in Phoenix was she taking the class?

[WT]

The AZ instructor has been smoking too much wacky weed. He really needs to cut back on his peyote consumption.

The Smith 642 revolver is fine for self defense. For an instructor to say it isn't just plain wrong and can devastate the confidence of a student with her weapon.

The instructor should change his tune or give up teaching.

I too have over 20 years teaching NRA courses. I would never say what he did.

[c_yeager]

1. Revolvers have the same number of components as automatics

2. An automatic can still function after the failure of it's components, a revolver is useless from any single broken component.

These are actually partially true and should probably be noted by a lot of people. Revolvers generally dont have the "failures to feed" that are associated with semis, but they are not any more immune to parts breakage than a semi. And yeah, a buggered up revolver will often not fire at all without a trip to a gunsmith. then again a broken auto isnt much better.

Neither of these come anywhere NEAR adequate reasons for not carrying a revolver. The fact is that a revolver is *probably* more likely to have a failure free lifespan of casual shooting that an auto, but they are not some kind of magical machine that cannot break. This is something that people sometimes do forget.

The guys sound like complete jerks since the 642 is probably one of the best small carry guns out there today, and even die-hard 1911 fans seem to have a place in their hearts for the good 'ole snubby. Sounds to me like she found some uber tactical mall-ninja types who read to many gun magazines.

[Jeff Timm]

I took the CCW class in FL. There were only two people with Revolvers, me and the Instructor.

Geoff
Who notes he has more Semi-autos than revolvers, :cool:

[jc2]

Well, Newton, were the instructors "'1911 or die' fanatics," or did they believe "you need hi cap mags in a shoot out?" The two positions are kind of contradictory, aren't they? Or are we just a little frustrated and shooting from the hip? :)

The funnin' aside, I'd be interested to know exactly what was presented and how it was present sans the sarcasm (and versus how you took it--second hand at that).

While I don't believe an instructor should directly criticize a student's choice of weapons one way or another (other than for safety reasons), giving the level of knowledge (very, very lacking in most cases) of many people seeking a CHL, an overview of various firearms--including their relative strengths and weaknesses--is not totally uncalled for.

How much of a factor in the perception was the fact that she had the only revolver? Was the instructor's intent to make her think, or did he erode her confidence--or maybe a little of both? There is a big difference.

For example, a five-shot shot, light-weight, J-frame DAO snubbie is good back-up weapon, but it leaves a lot to be desired as a primary carry weapon (but it IS a whole lot better than nothing). Hopefully, a statement like that will make you think (though, admittedly, it could upset you or erode your confidence).

[Marko Kloos]

For example, a five-shot shot, light-weight, J-frame DAO snubbie is good back-up weapon, but it leaves a lot to be desired as a primary carry weapon (but it IS a whole lot better than nothing).

People who think they might find themselves in scenarios like the bordello shootout in Way of the Gun carry semi-autos with a half dozen magazines at all times.

For Mr. and Mrs. Suburbian, a five-shot lightweight snubbie, combined with good judgment and a good pair of fast shoes will get them out of 99.5% of all self-defense scenarios in which they might find themselves.

The five-shot snubbie is by far the most popular carry option in America's pockets, purses, and glove boxes.

[Newton]

The wife is taking her class at the Scottsdale Gun Club, the USA'a largest indoor civilian shooting range (apparently).

I had to endure an evening of constant dry firing, because she is determined to ace the qualification shoot today and is hoping to have a 1911 shooter in the next lane because you might say she has something to prove.

The instructors also told a story from 2 classes ago where a female student swept one of them with her muzzle. When they correctly admonished her for doing so, she replied "it's ok, it's not loaded", thus adding a stupid statement to a stupid act. For this they not only threw her off the course, but wrote to the Arizona DPS and asked them to never, ever let this lady receive a CHL. I thought that was disgusting, they were there to train her out of dangerous habits, not punish her for having them.

I just saw the wife off to her class, I'm really hoping she brings honor to revolver shooters :D

[MillCreek]

For Mr. and Mrs. Suburbian, a five-shot lightweight snubbie, combined with good judgment and a good pair of fast shoes will get them out of 99.5% of all self-defense scenarios in which they might find themselves.

A profound, yet nonetheless undoubtedly true statement. I fall squarely within the Mr. Suburban demographic, and my most common carry is either a Taurus 650, 651, 9 mm Millennium Pro, or a variety of S&W snubbies, small autos or Ruger snubbies. Rarely do I carry the full-size 1911's or high-cap 9 mm autos. I figure if it is likely I will need those, I should probably be carrying the Ithaca 37, Colt SP-1, or the Mini-14 instead! :D

[DT Guy]

For Mr. and Mrs. Suburbian, a five-shot lightweight snubbie, combined with good judgment and a good pair of fast shoes will get them out of 99.5% of all self-defense scenarios in which they might find themselves.

Of course, an extension of this is that 99.5% of Suburbians will never need a gun of any type for defense.

:D :D :D


Doesn't seem to stop most of us here...


Larry

[pax]

Marko ~

Three determined assailants will undo that plan.

As will being a bad shot under stress.

I'm not saying that a five-shot isn't a viable choice. I'm saying that more ammunition is generally a Good Thing, everything else being equal.

pax

[rick_reno]

Moron instructors. Get thru the class, and don't recommend them to anyone else.

[sgt127]

Please show this to your wife. For the last 11 years I have carried a 642 as a backup. All day every day. Its with me alot off duty too, dropped in my pocket for a quick trip to the store. Though I work in a major metro area, I live a little out in the country. The pain in the *ss of carrying a full size gun and extra mags off duty, is not worth it to me. Lots of people will tell you to prpare for the worst, if that was the case, I would never go anywhere without my 11-87 full of 00 Buck or my M-4 with three extra mags. There has to be a happy medium. Even though I carry a .223 in my car at work, I don't sling it for every call I go to, based on the have the biggest gun you can carry theory, I guess I'm wrong not to carry it on every call because something "could" happen. I would also look like an idiot responding to a minor accident and slinging a .223 as I get out of the car. The reason cops don't carry their shotguns or rifles on every call is becasue we generally DON'T get into shootouts, off duty, the odds are even less and an average citizen wandering around has even less chance of getting into a shootout.

Those instructors need to back off of reading Soldier of Fortune, remember they were never SEALS, they are not training a bunch of DELTA Operators and chill out. As soon as she passes the class, you might mention to them that they are idiots.

[Ohen Cepel]

Reminds me fo when I took the class in AZ.

The instuctors were pretty good. However, there was a HUGE loud-mouth with the latest $1K+ .45 and all the toys you could imagine.
Was a bit funny when it turned out he couldn't shoot it any better than a sling-shot with it.

And yes, I qualified with a revolver. I think 6 shots of .357 is all I need. Not the best choice for everyone but does it for me.

Oh, could you let us know where the class was so others can avoid them?

[sgt127]

I think 6 shots of .357 is all I need. Not the best choice for everyone but does it for me.

Bill Jordan...Ed McGivern...Charles Askins...Skeeter Skelton....You are in pretty good company....

[GEM]

Lots of instructors from well know tactical schools carry the J frame for casual outings.

This is a typical example of the gun world seeing everything as black and white and not as a continuum of risk against which you plan.

We know that most DGUs are deterrent, so having a gun is the biggest part. We have no info that type of gun matters in deterrence. I know because I read the real literature on this and know the experts who study this.
In any case, a J frame is not a puny gun.

Thus the vast majority of incidents will be handled by one. Is it better to always have a big gun - sure! But if you can't carry one, should you not carry a J - NO!

Personally, I carry a Glock 19 when I can. When dress prevents, its a J or a Kahr. Sometimes, it's been a NAA 22 mag because of some circumstance. It is always better to have a gun.

I'm sure the instructors wear at all times the full Bat Belt.

Hicap Semi
BUG
2 knives
OC
Flashlight and backup
Cell phone.

In car - AR, AK or Shotgun and bug out bag.

[BryanP]

I had to endure an evening of constant dry firing, because she is determined to ace the qualification shoot today and is hoping to have a 1911 shooter in the next lane because you might say she has something to prove.

Good for her for wanting to do well. I hope she blows the doors off them. Let her know we're rooting for her and keep us informed.


Bryan (who has a 642 on his wish-list)

[Marko Kloos]

Three determined assailants will undo that plan.

Well, if three determined, armed assailants pick you as a target, then your goose is pretty much cooked, whether you have a five-shot snub or a seventeen-shot Wondernine. You'll just die with more bullets left in your weapon.

Most criminals are opportunists who rely on surprise and compliance. If I ever get accosted by a group of individuals in a life-threatening fashion while armed with a five-shooter, I'll just have to shoot the first two or three and hope that the remainder of the group have lost their stomachs for a fight by then.

More ammo is never a bad thing, but I have never read a single, verified account of a self-defense shooting where a non-LE citizen died because his or her CCW gun did not have enough rounds in it.

Picking a carry gun is always a tradeoff between size, weight, and convenience. I am still convinced that a five-shot snub is perfectly adequate for most lifestyles, especially since it makes compliance with the "have a gun" rule easy for a lot of people who have no interest in adapting their wardrobe and lifestyle around their sidearm like we gun geeks do. A lot of people don't want to try fifteen holster and belt combinations to find out just how big a gun they can reasonably carry. They just want something that's reliable, simple to operate, easy to maintain, easy to conceal, and reasonably powerful. The snubbie fits the bill on all accounts...that's why it's still going strong.

That said, I'd never talk smack about someone else's carry choice. (Besides, if you denigrate someone's gun, and they outshoot you with it, you have no excuse.)

In the end, it only matters whether you're comfortable with your chosen gun, and whether you can shoot it well. I'd be far more afraid of a skilled adversary with a single-action blackpowder sixgun than an unskilled one with a laser-equipped HK USP Tactical.

[Magnum88C]

First, a story. When I did the CCW class thing, we only had two women and they had little guns. One had a .38 Snubby (don't know which model, but it was a S&W) the other a little NAA .32 ACP. We of course had some jack@$$ brag about his damn 1911. Well, of course the women got nervous not only that their guns weren't enough, but that they'd wasted money buying them. The instructor did the exact opposite of the two clowns mentioned in this thread -- he said that neither would be his first choice, but "here's how to make the most of what you've got. You can always get a different gun after you've been shooting a while and know what will fit you best."

Now let's get real folks. How often do you really think Mitzy Homemaker is going to get charged by N number of superskilled determined ninjas? Fact is, criminals are, for the most part, lazy cowards. They want the easy score, and if they don't get it they go elsewhere. If they don't believe her that she'll shoot, she puts two intot he chest of the alpha scumbag, the rest are going to run like their drawers are on fire. It won't be because she has more bullets than they have members, it'll be because none wants to be the one to volunteer for the bullets she has left.

Let's also give women some credit here, generally they aren't stupid enough to be driving through the parts of town where determined (read doped-up) gangs roam. Every woman I ever knew was smart enough to drive around such areas, even if it meant going several miles out of the way to do so. The first step in surviving a gunfight is to avoid getting into one.

Newton, I hope you tell your wife not to worry about her gun, if she's smart (she seems to be) and avoids known trouble areas, her choice is just fine, and that the Brits have a technical term for the people she ran into: wankers.
Oh, and get her some snap caps for that dry firing. :D

[Vic303]

A 5 shot snubbie vs 3 determined assailants? Hmm...2 in the first, 2 in the second, and we will see just how 'determined' the 3rd assailant really is! I'll have 1 left for him, and I bet you he has NO idea how many rounds my snubbie holds.

[mec]

Not all CCW Instructors are the brightest porch light on the block. I know this because I am a CCW instructor.

[jc2]

Marko -
People who think they might find themselves in scenarios like the bordello shootout in Way of the Gun carry semi-autos with a half dozen magazines at all times.
You're reading just a little too much into what I said (and jumped to a very incorrect conclusion).

I think there is a better middle ground. Even back when revolvers were pretty much the standard in LE, the five-shot J-frames were considered better suited to the back-up role, but the ever so slightly larger Detective Special or derivative (Agent or Cobra) would suffice as a a primary carry gun. In terms of shootability (and even capacity--20% isn't bad odds), a slightly larger weapon (two or three inch K-frame, for example) has it all over a light-weight J-frame. Your chances of hitting what you're shooting at (and even if there is 99.5% chance, you'll never have to shoot it that 0.5% can be a real killer). So, no, I'm not saying you need semi-autos with a half a dozen magazines, but yes, there are better choices for even casual concealed carry (if you can ever really carry casually) than a lightweight J-frame.
The five-shot snubbie is by far the most popular carry option in America's pockets, purses, and glove boxes.
A very correct observation. Of course, the correct counter point to it is--just like my mother told me, and I told my kids--just because it's popular doesn't mean it's right. ;)

[Nodak]

I too am a 1911 kind of guy and won't usually leave home with out it but---my 642 is always with me every day, every where and I mean every where. I can not conceal the .45 where I work and guns are forbidden there. I can conceal my Smith. There are a lot of hostile people where I work.

[JohnKSa]

just because it's popular doesn't mean it's rightSome people never quite manage to figure this out...

[1 old 0311]

Instructors? A instructor should be able to teach you to shoot so that you don't NEED 12-15-17-19-or 32 rounds.

Kevin

[Fred Fuller]

Too bad you had to pay money to have her confidence in her weapon undermined. Of course it is an adequate choice, whoever tried to tell her otherwise is an idiot.

I showed your post to my wife (also a shooter herself) and her immediate response would not be suitable for Art's grammaw to read, I assure you. My wife has several S&W snubs...

lpl/nc

[Mongo the Mutterer]

Counterpoint. In my CCW class the instructor liked wheel guns.

Matter of opinion. If I need more than 5 rounds of .38 +P, I'm definitely in the wrong place. Feet don't fail me now...

But I will have the 642 with me, especially in the summer.

[Cosmoline]

Here we go again. This is yet another example of how too many Americans, including many "experts", view the sidearm as the ultimate weapon. They seriously think that getting into a sustained firefight with a short gun is a realistic possibility. The revolver is perfectly fine as a handgun. Why? Because all handguns are short range defensive firearms. AND THAT IS ALL THEY ARE!! If you're facing multiple armed foes, you need a long gun if you want to survive. This business of planning on using a pistol in a protracted offensive firefight with a bunch of goblins is nuts.

[ken B]

Unless they've changed it, in Texas if you test with a revolver, that is all you are legally able to carry concealed, while testing with an auto means you can carry any type of pistol ( really not sure why that is...has it changed?)

When my wife was looking into taking her course, she was a very new shooter and the instructor of the course that she thought of taking did everything but refuse to let her take it with a wheelie. DId everything to dissuade her. SO, we tried everything from Beretta to Browning to Glock and so on....hated them. Hated slides, hated the brass coming near her head in some instances (she's a southpaw), hated them. She now knows how to use everything in our safe, but hates them.

Picked up a rather clean, very clean Model 10 4" heavy barrel...she now has 4 revolvers that WILL go with her when either death or divorce do us part :) (hope she's joking!) Took the course with another instructor, who was great with her and the other woman who took the course (if memory serves me, she used a Model 66).

She's told the other guy when she ran into him that she was only going to carry a revolver, so why take it with an auto?

That is just bad that instructors won't teach someone basic saftey like muzzle control, or badmouth someone's choice in pistolas. Little on the high horse from what it sounds, I guess. Shoot, anything in the pocket is better than a $1k custom in the safe!


Ken B

[Vic303]

Ken, Texas still has the two classifications of carry--revolver only, or semiauto&revolver eligible. If you qualify semiauto, you can carry either revolver or semiauto. If you qualify revolver, you can only carry revolver.

[Kamicosmos]

In MO, you have to shoot both revolver and semi-auto to qualify for the CCW permit. I think it's a good idea. (que argument about training requirements infringing on the 2nd A now. :neener: )

I won't expand on the revo vs uberauto argument. Both guns have their place. I carry an SP101 with a speedloader. If I ever have to shoot and I have to use more than 10 rounds of .357 Magnum....I better be shooting at Aliens, T-Rex's, zombie hordes, etc.

On occasion, I carry my CZ97 with a spare mag. If I ever have to shoot and I have to use more than 21 rounds of .45 ACP....I better be shooting at Aliens, T-Rex's, zombie hordes, etc.

You get the idea behind my point. Carry what you want, what you can conceal, and what you're comfortable and confident in shooting! End of debate. ;)

[R.H. Lee]

What Cosmoline said
+1

[denfoote]

I knew the funny feeling I had about that place was warranted!
I took my renewal class at Mandall's shortly before they shut down.

[pezo]

That texas law is a bunch of bullsh.......! :)

[hillbilly]

I'm a CCW instructor for Arkansas, and what they said to your wife sounds like all kinds of stupid......and not for the least reason that saying such stupid things to paying customers tends to drive away other paying customers in the future.

I was actually staying in Scottsdale with friends back when the Scottsdale Gun Club was on the verge of opening. In fact, they were opening the week after I left.

I picked up their brochures, and read about the club on the Internet. My friend even drove me to the parking lot and let me check it out. He knew I was into guns, and did it mainly as a joke, since he was living literally about four blocks from it.

It looked like a place where the main concern was how much money you had, and anything else, especially things reltaed to guns, would be very much secondary.

hillbilly

[hillbilly]

Hey Pezo, Arkansas has the same law.

You qualify for your CCW with a semi, you can carry "any legal handgun."

If you qualify with a revolver, you can carry any revolver, but only revolvers.

hillbilly

[pezo]

It doesnt make sense to me. Im here In MIch where a concealed handgun is a concealed handgun. doesnt matter if its a revo or an auto sounds bias to auto's . If I lived with that rediculus law I would take ccw class with a METEBA! :scrutiny:

[Newton]

Thanks for all the responses.

She called me on break to say that she shot 3 x 10 ring, 5 in 8/9, and 2 flyers in 7 (not bad flyers if you ask me).

The RO singled her out for compliment, especially as she was not only the only revolver on the course, but with a 1 7/8" at that.

After the shoot, a few of the other attendees came to talk to her and one said that "anyone who goes up against this girl on the street is dead". A little too much maybe, but it has all served to make her feel a lot better about the whole course.

If anyone needs a realtor in Phoenix who knows how to shoot a J Frame just let me know :D

[GUNKWAZY]

Glad to hear it all came out good.
I was waiting to hear how it went.
I've also been waiting to take the course myself.
If she needs any help Real Estate wise on the East side (East Valley) that can also handle a Wheelgun and does not deal too much with bottom feeders, have her call me. I'll take care of her people on this side of town.
What company is she with ?

Jeff (GUNKWAZY)
Red Brick Realty

[dawei]

Those that can't, teach; those that can't teach write for gun magazines.

Three times I've used a handgun to defend myself. All three times were with a revolver; the most I shot was twice. I'm here, they're not - nuff said.

[Elkslayer]

"Three determined assailants will undo that plan.

As will being a bad shot under stress.

I'm not saying that a five-shot isn't a viable choice. I'm saying that more ammunition is generally a Good Thing, everything else being equal.

pax"


Well, let me take this kind of thinking one step further,

10,000 charging Red Chinese could screw up your day even if you had a BAR and a duce and a half full of ammo now couldn't it?

It is a shame what some folks won't do to run down someone elses handgun pick.

[bakert]

I know a few guys that got certificates or whatever as instructors when Ky's concealed carry law went into effect. Other than owning a few guns these guys had no business teaching anyone anything about guns or shooting. I still hear a lot BS statements from instructors and range workers that should know better.

[bubbygator]

I'll tell a story that is anecdotal - because I can't remember which gun-rag I read it in. It was on the back page where the guru's discuss their stuff. About 8 of the Board of Directors of some National annual gun function were all senior gun whizes & they were sitting around a table discussing the latest get-together. It was in the time of the discussion of which was better, the new wonder-nines, or the venerable 1911 .45's. Someone said why don't we put up on the table what we are each carrying right now. Every gun on the table was a .38 snubby.

[1911Ron]

Newton my wife and i went to Guns Plus in Surprise and had a good time, i have known Ken for a long time and has a very good repore with his class. When you or your wife go for requal go see Ken. Good for your wife and for her shooting so well :cool: :D My feelings are you carry what feels right to you not what some gun rag comando says is right.

[pax]

Elkslayer ~

Let me say it again. I'll type more slowly this time, as you're not the only one who apparently missed an important sentence in my post:
I'm not saying that a five-shot isn't a viable choice. I'm saying that more ammunition is generally a Good Thing, everything else being equal.
In no way am I running down anyone else's choice of gun. A five-shot is a viable CCW.

pax

[Sam Adams]

I own both a 1911 clone and a 642.

If I knew that I was going to be attacked, I'd choose...not to be in that place at that time. The first rule for surviving a gunfight is not to get in the fight.

The second rule is to bring a gun - ANY gun - to a gunfight. But carrying a big 1911 is not always practical. Believe me, being here in South Texas in the summertime, wearing a suitcoat or an untucked shirt isn't always practical. So many times I didn't take my 1911 with me - and I'm damned glad (and perhaps lucky) that I never had a need for it when it was sitting at home. Anyhow, now I have a 642 (as of 8 days ago). It goes with me practically everywhere, and will until the weather cools off and I can carry my 1911 with comfort. BTW, I carried my 1911 for the better part of 2 years, so I'm certainly not inclined against it.

5 shots of .38 +P Gold Dots will beat a thumb up your you-know-what any day. Yeah, I'd rather have 8 .45s than 5 .38 +Ps, but I'd really rather have 20 rounds of .308. Of course, carrying around the M1A might make concealment a bit more difficult, and it sure won't be very comfortable.

Bottom line: the instructor is both uninformed and an idiot.

[Checkman]

I carry two S&W M49's in ankle holsters (left and right), a Sig Sauer 220 on my belt along with two extra mags,a 686+ in a shoulder holster and a 32 caliber Keltec taped to my chest. Somtimes I also tape a straight razor to the back of my neck and stuff a couple switchblades into my pockets. Of course I also have a Remington 870 riot gun in my car with three reloads and an M1 Garand in my trunk, because you never know when you might need to punch through body armor or a car body.

A five shot .38 caliber J - frame by itself??? Nonsense. :evil: ;)

[XLMiguel]

Checkman - What do you smoke and where can I get some? :neener:

[geekWithA.45]

Texas still has the two classifications of carry--revolver only, or semiauto&revolver eligible. If you qualify semiauto, you can carry either revolver or semiauto. If you qualify revolver, you can only carry revolver.

Texas got it bassackwards, if you ask me. Yeah, sure, you have to know an extra trick or so for an autoshucker, and so what.

When the chips are down, the revo's TRIGGER is a heck of a lot more challenging. If you master a revo trigger, auto triggers are easy, and that's going to have a heck of a lot more to do with the "public safety" aspect of the thing than anything else.

(Where, "Public safety" == discharged rounds hitting bad guys, rather than random innocent people milling around)


Now, as for the dim bulbs teaching the carry course, Shame on them!

Newbies are to be treasured, not foils to magnify the instructor's ego.


As for the 642, it's a perfectly good gun, and I love mine. (It's my deep concealment piece) but like any heavy triggered snubbie, it's a more challenging than many armaments, and something you MUST take to the range and practice with before taking onto the street!

[Fatelvis]

I like how the 642 can be fired repeatedly while still in the pocket, and if you encounter a "dud" round, you can pull the trigger again, and it`ll probably go BOOM!

[Javelin Man]

In Ohio, you can carry any weapon with your CCW, however, my certificate had the weapon specified on it that I used to certify. I used a .38 S&W and three others used revolvers. Of the other 18, about 75% had some sort of failure during the class. Us 4 had 100% reliability. I didn't have a speed loader and that took some time reloading the five shots by hand, but I did load faster than one guy with his auto. (He wasn't very good).

Since then, I've obtained a Kel-tec 9mm with a 12 round magazine and an 11 rd. spare. I also carry a Kel-tec .32 so I have 8 rounds at my disposal. I carry whatever best fits my attire and perceived need for the evening, and I don't feel undergunned with any of the three. Well, maybe with the .32, but I'm a fast runner and the BG will have 560 gr. of .32 bullets in him weighing him down as he chases me. :D

I may someday get a .357 revolver, but it will be a full-sized gun to absorb some of the recoil. I'll carry it and not be concerned with the 5,6, or 7 rounds that it holds.

[grey9551]

What distance did your wife shoot at. I am not sure in Michigan where I qualified a score like that would have made it if it is 7 yards.

We qualified at 7 10 and 17 yards and at all distances 50% of the shots had to be in the ten and nothing outside the 8. We had several that did not qualify the first try. You could requalify a week for 3 weeks and if you did not pass you would need to be tutored by a trainer. The extra qualifying was free except for ammo and the tutoring was very reasonable.

I made it through the first time but I have been shooting revolvers and pistols for 40 years.

Gary

[Newton]

I believe she did all her shooting at 10 yards, which is different from the qualification shoot I did.

Jeff, she works with Keller Williams in Ahwatukee, just ask for Kimberley.

[Boss Spearman]

I agree with Cosmoline. I only have 5 shots of .38 sp in my S&W 642 or Taurus 851, with some spare rounds in a holder.
If I ever need more than that in a self-defense encounter, I'm in serious trouble.

[fiVe]

There's nothing worse than revolver bigotry. ;)

Seriously, I have found the 642 to be the perfect CCW for what I do and where I go.

R/fiVe

[dawei]

I read all about these courses & qualifications. Don't get me wrong I'm all for proficiency, knowledge, skill, & safety.

One of the few things I like about living here in WA state however:

1. You apply for your permit ($60 for 5 years, [renewal is $32 for 5 years]).

2. You receive your permit in the mail.

End of process.

Here CCW is not a PRIVILEDGE, IT'S A RIGHT!

[c_yeager]

Well, Newton, were the instructors "'1911 or die' fanatics," or did they believe "you need hi cap mags in a shoot out?" The two positions are kind of contradictory, aren't they?

You would think so, but i have met my share of people who didnt find a problem with holding both of these beliefs simultaniously. Apparently a 1911 with 7 rounds has an infinately superior capacity to a wheely that has 6 rounds (or 7 or 8 for that matter).

Frankly i have a hard time thinking of a situation that can be with 7 rounds of .45acp that couldnt be solved with 6 rounds of .357mag (the reverse is also true).

i do have to admit that i have heard to many horror stories of poor-penetration from .38spec to be overly confident in that round, however when someone can show me a stone-cold reliable .45acp in the same size/weight category as a J-frame, then this might actually become an issue.

[Newton]

Well her 642 is now loaded with some of the new Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P loads that were specifically developed for the J frame.

I have no doubt that if she ever had to tag someone with one of them (Lord forbid) then it would really sting ;)

[Correia]

There are plenty of really stupid CCW instructors. I know. I am one.

We can be just as opinionated and ignorant as anybody else. We've just taken more classes, which we may or may not have paid attention in. :)

[exgun]

Today, I checked out a S&W 642 with Crimson Laser Sights. It was sweet. I believe it would be great for casual carry. I think a good round would be the Federal Personal Defense 110 gn bullet.

[fiVe]

Well her 642 is now loaded with some of the new Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P loads that were specifically developed for the J frame.

Newton: Has she fired many Gold Dots? I've found that I shoot Remington or Federal 125gr +P better. I'm just curious.

R/fiVe

[Boats]

I wonder what one of those CCW instructors would think of my evolution as to what to carry. I went from being a wet-behind-the-ears kid who had to have 31 or better 9mm rounds on me to feel adequately armed, to 15 rounds of .45ACP, and after some functionality/accuracy testing am going to begin packing 12 .38 Specials centered around a mint third issue Colt Detective Special.

Might they ask if I have become a sissy?
Have I become "tactically" complacent?
Can't I manage an automatic proficiently?

Maybe they'd have to accept that after two decades of practicing and carrying that I now consider myself a very decent shot and have figured out my comfort level when carrying daily. They might also have to believe me when I say that I am unlikely to be one to singlehandedly fight off the Hell's Angels should they rumble into downtown shooting the place up. :rolleyes:

[sumpnz]

The instructors also told a story from 2 classes ago where a female student swept one of them with her muzzle. When they correctly admonished her for doing so, she replied "it's ok, it's not loaded", thus adding a stupid statement to a stupid act. For this they not only threw her off the course, but wrote to the Arizona DPS and asked them to never, ever let this lady receive a CHL. I thought that was disgusting, they were there to train her out of dangerous habits, not punish her for having them. I took my CCW class at SGC too, and they had the same exact story (except that it was a guy that swept them one class ago that time). I think it's just a story they tell to warn folks about the consequences of improper gun handeling.

My instructors, while 1911 fans, hardly poo-pooed other guns. However, they did recommend against mouse-guns simply becuase many people cannot shoot them with sufficient accuracy. They did say that if you could shoot a J-frame accuratly, go for it, but otherwise to stick with guns that are easier to hit a target a 10 yards with.

My wife qual'd with a borrowed Sig P239 in .40S&W. She was MUCH better with that gun than her Charter Arms aluminum framed .38 snubbie.
I believe she did all her shooting at 10 yards, which is different from the qualification shoot I did. Qual, at least when I took the class in April, and when my wife took it in May was 10 shots each a 5 yards and 10 yards. DPS requirements at the time were 5 shots each at 5 and 10 yards. 70% within the 7-ring (chest size area) to pass. Not sure what they are now since I know they've dropped the class requirements from 16 to 8 hours for a new permit and from 8 to 4 hours for renewal (effective sometime in August IIRC).

Newton - You and your wife ought to come to the THR shoot on the 23rd. We're still trying to settle on a location. Check it out in the Rallying Point forum. PM me if you want to get together for a beer or anything in the mean time.

[Dirty Bob]

In the end, it only matters whether you're comfortable with your chosen gun, and whether you can shoot it well. I'd be far more afraid of a skilled adversary with a single-action blackpowder sixgun than an unskilled one with a laser-equipped HK USP Tactical. - Marko Kloos

I think Marko nailed it! I recently shot at a range next to two guys who were shooting a beautiful beautiful Hi-Power with a laser sight. It seemed like they only had the one magazine with it, though, and at 7 yards, their groups wouldn't have been covered by a large dinner plate. :eek:

I've seen the same kind of thing over and over. I bought a Makarov and since the purchase have bought several spare magazines, a few spare parts, and over 1,000 rounds of ammo. It didn't set me back all that much, but the more I shoot the Mak, the better I get with it. I'm thinking of putting some new sights on it (I'll do the work myself to keep the costs down). It won't be the most powerful gun, but a compact, dead-reliable and accurate pistol that I can shoot well and can keep running seems like a better deal than spending all of my $$ for the newest "ultimate," pistol with nothing left for spare mags and practice ammo.

I'd like to get a Glock 19 one of these days, but right now it isn't in my budget. On the other hand, the Mak will make a great backup/spare pistol when I finally get the Glock. I do have a .38 snubby, but I shoot the Makarov much better.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

[mikewilczynski]

Give a person a position where people have to listen and all of a sudden they knw it all.. I carry a revovler on many occasions. especially for a woods gun. I guess all teh people killed by revolvers died of fright.

[Dirty Bob]

Yes, mike, all your revolvers are useless! You need to sell them all and buy autopistols! ;)

Seriously, I looked for a Model 10 in my area for a while, but couldn't find one for a good price. Evidently some people think that revolvers are useful!

Dirty Bob

[mikewilczynski]

Last Febraury I picked up a pre model 10 M&P. Accurate and smooooooooooth.

[ClarkEMyers]

1. Revolvers have the same number of components as automatics

2. An automatic can still function after the failure of it's components, a revolver is useless from any single broken component.

Consider the Colt Single Action Army - in the course of praising it with faint damns many have told how it keeps working when broken - tie the trigger back and use it as a slip gun after manually rotating the cylinder and other stories - also pound on the hammer with your shoe when the spring goes.

To each his own but mindset matters more than equipment. A wiser man than I once said in effect that when I think I'd better carry more ammunition I stay home - don't let your 1911 carry you someplace you wouldn't go with a J-frame. Still a 1911 perhaps with a thinned frame and slim grips for small hands is mighty comforting and pretty comfortable too.

[Bix]

I'd steer very wide of any trainer who seemed preoccupied with the equipment component of the equation.

I've been pretty lucky in that all of my instructors have been focused on the appropriate half of the word "gunfight".

[G. Glock]

"More ammo is never a bad thing, but I have never read a single, verified account of a self-defense shooting where a non-LE citizen died because his or her CCW gun did not have enough rounds in it."


Marko's above comment, I think, is the most profound of this thread!

I've competed pretty extensively and fairly successfully with 1911s and Glocks, but I often find myself feeling pretty confidently armed in the summer (Winter, too, sometimes) with this little 642 in my front, right cargo shorts pocket.

I take this logic a step further, as well, when discussions of the "best" carry ammo get so deep you need boots. How many non-LE citizens (or cops for that matter) have died because a different bullet put in the same thug in the same exact place would have kept him from shooting back accurately or continuing the attack?

I'm still waiting for those news articles, whether in the gun press or the general press, about how somebody was killed for using the wrong ammo or for needing a couple more bullets. Not to say it hasn't happened at some point; everything has happened somewhere at some point.

[buzz_knox]

More ammo is never a bad thing, but I have never read a single, verified account of a self-defense shooting where a non-LE citizen died because his or her CCW gun did not have enough rounds in it.

Talk about your qualifiers.

1. You've excluded anything you haven't read, implying that it doesn't exist.
2. You've excluded cops, who have died in the midst of a reload.
3. You've excluded civilians who haven't died, but survived because their weapon did have sufficient rounds. Might things in Arizona (or was it New Mexico) have turned out different if the armed citizen who came to the aid of officers under fire hadn't had high capacity mags for his Glock 31?

[pax]

buzz ~

And he's excluding the folks who survived, but barely or only by luck -- and would have survived triumphantly with a few more in the pipe. I'm thinking of one account I read awhile back, a gun store incident, where the good guy ran dry & was standing over the perp with an empty gun. Fortunately the perp didn't realize it, and LEOs arrived on scene soon after ... but I would hate to be the guy standing there with an empty gun, bluffing for my life. Wouldn't you?

I cannot imagine interviewing someone after a gunfight and having them say, "Well, I wish I hadn't had so much ammunition available to me." Can you?

Again, for those who missed it the first two times. I am not saying that a five-shot isn't a viable choice for a defense weapon. I'm only saying that more ammunition is generally a Good Thing if you can get it.

pax

[buzz_knox]

Again, for those who missed it the first two times. I am not saying that a five-shot isn't a viable choice for a defense weapon. I'm only saying that more ammunition is generally a Good Thing if you can get it.

+1. If Murphy has struck and I have to use a firearm, I'm already way behind the curve ball, and the percentages people throw around (only 3 rounds per fight, 99.9% of confrontations don't require firing, etc) are pretty much out the window. So, I want every advantage I can make, finagle, steal, force, etc. Ammo is one advantage and training is another.

My tactical plans involve manuevering, not running. Retreating works, but running gets you killed. The plans also never rely on the bad guys simply "running" from the sound of the fight. Watch some of those police videos that make the news all the time, or read up on gun fights. Some bad guys run, but they do so after the opening stages of the fight are over, and they've thrown some lead down range. Bad guys (I use the plural as that's one of the growing trends) know the value of covering fire and have no concerns about where those rounds go.

The 642 is a fine weapon if it meets your criteria and you can handle it (the growing objection to J-frames for women is actually due to recoil concerns with sufficiently powerful loads, not "insufficient tacticalness."). Personally, it doesn't work for me for a variety of reasons, ammo capacity being the least of them.

[HankB]

IMHO a semi-automatic pistol is generally a better choice for carry; in my case it's either a BHP or a G26, depending on wardrobe of the day. More rounds, easier to shoot, faster reload.

BUT there is absolutely nothing "wrong" with revolvers, including lightweight J-frame snubbies!!! I recently acquired an S&W 340 and it makes a fine "ALWAYS" gun for pocket carry . . . and if you think something "might" be going down, you can stand there casually with your hands in your pockets and LOOK unprepared, with nobody the wiser if, as usual, nothing happens.

But if you're already holding the revolver in your pocket, you can probably draw and fire in 1/2 second or so, before the bad guy even realizes you're armed.

That ain't bad.

[ClarkEMyers]

My objection to a J-frame is not the reload - I mostly carry Speed Strips (trademark) but the fact that too much is cover not just concealment. When I was young and foolish about where I went and what I did I carried a Model 58 because I'd seen trick .357 bullets blow up on window glass and spew their core as lead dust. Today I mostly do carry trick .357 bullets (9X23) just the same but I worry.

[jc2]

I am less concerned about the capacity of J-frames than I am their general shootability. They are OK for back-ups/second guns, but leave a lot to be desired for a primary weapons. (BTW, that was pretty much the consensus when LEOs carried revolvers). Again, when revolvers were the weapon in LE, the guys with the Detective Specials/Agents/Cobras (all of which are every bit as "carryable" as a J-frame) and the two inch K-frames regularly cleaned the plows of those who were shooting J-frames in various police competitons of that era. There is that much of a difference in shootability.

[ClarkEMyers]

I am less concerned about the capacity of J-frames than I am their general shootability. They are OK for back-ups/second guns, but leave a lot to be desired for a primary weapons.

True enough but there is no Utopia. I tried to persuade my wife that a Detective Special made a better purse gun but I never persuaded myself the Colt made a better pocket pistol. Then too I'm talking only Chief's Special here the J-frame Small Hunter from the Custom Shop with a longer vented barrel and adjustable sights is quite as shootable as any small Colt - and I had to replace some lockwork parts on the Colt as well. No question that for BUG competition the Colt is the gamer's choice.

I've known women who really liked J-frames including Chief's Specials and Banker's Specials - a model 31/2 say is quite shootable.

[The_Antibubba]

I feel like I've seen this on TV somewhere:

"She prefers to use a revolver-NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!!" :neener:

I wish I could weigh in on this, but I live in a California metropolis, and, not having made a large campaign donation to my local sheriff, I cannot legally carry. I'd rather have a .25 Raven than what I have now, which is a comfortable pair of athletic shoes and a loud scream. :mad:

[el44vaquero]

A 642 will do the job just fine if it is in capable hands. The most expensive 1911 left in the car because it doesn't fit her doesn't do her any good.

[deputy tom]

Hmmm,can't remember which prolific gun-writer it was that said,"any gun will do as long as you do",but it makes sense.tom.

[30Cal]

1. Revolvers have the same number of components as automatics
True. Parts counts are the lowest form of reliability prediction.

2. An automatic can still function after the failure of it's components, a revolver is useless from any single broken component.
Huh??

I'm pretty sure an automatic will have at least as many single-point-failure components, not including each round in the magazine. From a failure modes and affects standpoint, they have a lot in common--trigger, hammer, springs, firing pins, frame, barrel, etc. Not surprisingly, the revolver has 6 redundant chambers which equates to 6 redundant cartridges. The automatic has one of each. The reliability prediction on a revolver is going to be much sunnier than the one for the auto.

The few revolver failures I've had have been ammunition--all of which would be self correcting with the pull of the trigger. I've had several hundred failures (functional) of automatics that generally require a lot of pressing, pulling, etc to get back up and running.

Ty

[pax]

Mmmph. Pretty sure the bottom-feeder vs round gun controversy has been fought before, on other threads. :uhoh:

As far as reliability, my experience is that a bottom feeder is far more likely to malf in the first place. Failure to feed, failure to extract, double-feeds are all nearly unique to semi-autos. Clearing these malfs is not difficult; the slowest of them can be cleared in less than five seconds by someone who knows how to run the gun.

As 30Cal pointed out, the rare failure to fire with a wheelgun is usually ammunition-related, and the solution is absurdly simple: pull the trigger again. This takes no time at all, contrasted with a tap-rack which takes probably half a second.

However. If a wheelgun does have a jam, about the simplest non-ammution-related jam it can have often requires a tool and some concentration to clear. And it takes time.

The analog to a semi-auto's failure to extract for a wheelgun is a case getting caught under the star. Anyone want to time equally-skilled people clearing these analogous malfs? My money's on the semi-auto being ready to go first.

Similarly, failure to feed in a semi-auto is analogous to forcing-cone issues in a wheelgun. For the semi-auto, you tap-rack and fire. Half a second. For the wheelgun, you take the gun to a smith.

Bottom line: wheelguns rarely jam, but when they do jam it can take an inordinate amount of time to clear them. Semi-autos are far more likely to jam than revolvers, but are usually quicker to clear.

(Heh, I'm mightily restraining myself from pointing out that the most common "failure to fire" of all is running out of ammunition ... I won't say it, I won't I won't I won't... :D)

Oh, one more thought. It doesn't really matter what you choose, as long as you're skilled with it. Please don't think I'm saying revolvers are bad, or that semi autos are bad. I'm saying nothing is perfect, that's all.

pax

[one45auto]

Marko ~

Three determined assailants will undo that plan.

If they're that determined, even a hi-cap magazine won't guarantee success.