[sgtb]

I am thinking of buying a 1911 and don't need anything custom in the thousands of dollars. Thinking of a factory Springfield, Para, or Kimber. Any suggestions or recommendations? I think I want a full size 5in. gun for target shooting and perhaps carry at some point. Thanks

[mattw]

can't go wrong with a Springfield Armory GI model or Mil-Spec. the mil-spec has some custom features like a lowered and flared ejection port and forward slide serrations. if you want it for carry i would go with the SA Mil-Spec. it will be way cheaper than a Kimber or Para and be just as reliable.

[StephenT]

This past weekend, I picked up a NIB Filipino-made Armscor 1911A1 for $300 out the door at the gun show. My other 1911s are the basic GI style, but this Armscor comes with extra features, like a beavertail grip, the ambi safety, front serrations and an external extractor. The trigger is actually quite good, much better than it was out of the box on my Colt pre-NRM 1991A1. Today, I got to try out the Armscor briefly and was very pleased with the results. The range was closing, so I didn't have time to shoot more than 50 rounds, but the gun was very accurate at 10 yards, as I would expect from a 5" 45ACP. I agree with other posts that it shoots a bit low, but holding the front sight slightly higher takes care of that issue. I was worried that the dealer was unloading the gun due to some problem, but it seems to function fine. And at about half the cost of a Springfield loaded.

You might also check out the RIA (Rock Island Armory), also made in the Philippines. Mine has never had any problems. Though the RIA represents excellent value, the Armscor is even better. :D

[larry starling]

Why not try and find a Colt. There m1991a1 Nrm(new roll mark) is a mighty fine pistol. The guns coming from colt are some of the finest guns they have made in years. go look at www.coltsmfg.com check them out... :D

[Black Majik]

Ditto Larry Starling. Pick up a NRM Colt Government for yourself. Its one very reliable and accurate 1911 without the bells and whistles.

The fit and finish is better than the Springfield Armory pistols. Furthermore, you just have to love that blue!

[Ala Dan]

Why not try out a Kimber Raptor, or Grand Raptor? :uhoh: Both are quite
pricey, but well worth the money, IMHO. :) I own the regular Raptor II,
and have been quite pleased with its performance. :D

[deker]

I've got to throw in at least one vote for a Dan Wesson. Dollar for dollar they're one of the best deals around.

-d

[1911_Mitch]

If you want a full sized gun for range time and eventual carry - I would go with the

Kimber 5" CDP or the Kimber 4" Compact CDP

I have the 4" and it is awesome - I want to get the 5" as a compliment.

[sgtb]

I have heard Kimber is having problems with the external extractors. Any truth to this?

[Ala Dan]

I have heard this same rumor, for a while now. I MUST say that MY 5"
Kimber Raptor II HAS NOT experienced these problems. Its been rock
solid, and flawless since it left the box. During the first 500 rounds,
expect Kimber's to burp every once in a while; as this is due to the
tightness of the chamber, and its match grade barrels. If it fails to
go into battery, just tap the slide with the heel of your hand and it
should slam home without further problems. Mine is still new, so I
haven't tried my handloads, using the 200 grain Magnus L-SWC's.

[mattw]

I would stay away from the armscors.. they are cheap and have alot of nice features standard, but from what I hear they do not have parts interchangability with standard GI or mil-spec parts.

[Vernal45]

Check out the new Kahr/AO 1911's. Good guns

[mattw]

i have read mixed reviews on the kahr/AO 1911s.. you can get a springfield for about the same price.

if you decide to get a Rock Island pistol make sure it is pre 2002 or 2003, guns made during those years seem to have started to slip in quality and quality control. my buddy has a 2000 manufacture RIA and its great, the ones they make now are pretty junky.

[horge]

I would stay away from the armscors.. they are cheap and have alot of nice features standard, but from what I hear they do not have parts interchangability with standard GI or mil-spec parts.

You likely haven't owned an Armscor.
They have pretty decent drop-in compatibility.

if you decide to get a Rock Island pistol make sure it is pre 2002 or 2003, guns made during those years seem to have started to slip in quality and quality control. my buddy has a 2000 manufacture RIA and its great, the ones they make now are pretty junky.

RIA's are Armscors.
As for the newest RIA/Armscor being 'junky', a quick check on the feedback at 1911forum will show you otherwise.

[Zach S]

can't go wrong with a Springfield Armory GI model or Mil-Spec. the mil-spec has some custom features like a lowered and flared ejection port and forward slide serrations. if you want it for carry i would go with the SA Mil-Spec. it will be way cheaper than a Kimber or Para and be just as reliable.
No front slide serrations on the mil-spec, one thing I like about it.

Series I Kimbers are also good pistols, however it would have to come off of the used market, so shop carefully. Prices vary, since the Series Is are more desirable by some folks (like me;)), the price sometimes reflects that...

My stainless Colt 1991A1 was a great pistol, and as far as I know its current owner is happy with it. I havent ran into him in a few weeks though.

[Geno]

Sgtb:

Please take my comments in the spirit intended...I don't want to read about you being killed because your 1911 looked great but failed in any way. In this world, we are alive or dead. A gun works or it doesn't. All guns break. So, just fix them, but honesty what counts, and honesty is what this Kimber post is about:

In selecting any firearm, I first consider intended use and location of use. For me, a 1911 is a CCW piece and it must function flawlessly in my personal test for CCW reliability...100 rounds, no cleaning, no oiling...no failures. Honestly, is that too high of a hurdle? I do not believe it is.

I have had 7 Kimbers. The first 3 were great. The last 4 were horrid, and of those 2 were high-priced Custom Shop models. Any manufacturer is going to turn out good and poor quality. It just happens. But, when Kimber's Custom Shop director tells me (AND MY MASTER DEALER) over the phone that the repairs will be made, specifies the repairs, then fails to do so, and denies saying it...sorry, I call that horrid memory or lie.

In the end, I had to sell three of the defective Kimbers at a sizeable financial loss...total loss on the three Kimbers was $1,290.00! Now, some people at "1911forum" don't want to hear the truth about Kimbers...I suspect that there is either a financial relationship or a personal relationship there fouling up the honesty. I simply cannot in clear conscience suggest that you buy a Kimber.

My three Colts have to date functioned flawlessly, however, that certainly could change with use, and if it does, I will post an equally honest and critical post of Colt, but ONLY if Colt were to fail to make needed repairs.

Regarding Springfields, I never knew until last week that some of them use a two-piece barrel. I'm not a gun smith, but I do know I prefer a one-piece...why? Just simplicity. I don't have to worry about that coming apart. I have read of failures to the system. I would buy a Springfield, I have had 2 XDs, that functioned flawlessly, BUT were one-piece barrels, and in fact weren't 1911s. But, I do trust Springfield.

So, I'm not bashing Kimber, I am simply telling you the truth of their poor quality (at times) and of their poor service (at least to me).

Doc2005

[Smoke]

Lets see, I currently own Kimbers, Springfield, Colt, and a whole slew of Para's.

If I were to recommend one for a first 1911, it would have to be the NRM Colt.
Quality is back where it should be and is good value. Completely reliable.

But then I just bought two more Para's too. LTC and SSP are dang nice guns.

Smoke

[yorec]

I researched the various models and makes for the past two years before buying my first 1911... I chose Springfield Loaded - No problems... Very happy with it... Of course I recommend it! :cool:

[ulflyer]

Well made, functions flawlessly, looks good, fair price. Also, look to good used ones; Colt 1991A1 are excellent as well as the NRM's, as are the Norinco's. Have not had any experience with Springers or other 1911 brands.

[Ed]

I have Springfield and kimber, the Kimber is a series 2 with external extractor. It is flawless and is the most accurate pistol I have ever shot.

[HSMITH]

I took a brand new Colt NRM Commander out of the box, cleaned and lubed it, and put 600 rounds through it. Ball, JHP, and LSWC loads. Not one bobble, good accuracy too.

The NRM Colt I got is the best fit and finished 1911 I have seen in a long time, it is simply superb for the price.

I would recommend a NEW Colt first, and a Springfield Loaded second.

[silent one]

sgtb,
I have been shooting .45's for more than 40 years, and I can't remember owning, and shooting, any 1911 style .45 that compares with the Kimber. I usually shoot my pre series II custom classic, that I have owned since 1999. This weapon has never had a malfunction, and it's about as accurate as it gets. The new series II Kimbers are also great weapons. The TLE model is a nice weapon. A friend has one, and he has put over 4,000 rounds through it without any problems. You can pick one of the TLE models up for approx $700.00, give, or take. The pre series II kimbers are no longer made, and are a little pricey, and can be difficult to find. The new Warrior model is as close to the original pre series II that Kimber makes. It doesn't have the firing pin block, that the other new kimbers have, but the price is up there. My next choice, if cost is a factor, would be the Springfield Mil-Spec. It's a fine weapon, and is fairly accurate, and well made. This one can be bought for approx $450.00, and is a good value. Whatever you choose to get, just keep them clean, and well lubed, and you should get many years of good service from them. "Good luck"


SILENT ONE

[sgtb]

I really appreciate all the advice. I can't seem to find the NRM Colts. Do they go by a different model number? I of course have heard all about how good and how bad Kimbers are. I guess one must just try one and see. Not many have recommended the Para's. Most of you have said good things about Springfields. Decisions, decisions.

[Brass Balls]

I like Kimbers and Springfields. Generally under a $1000 I think Kimbers have better triggers and accuracy, however when you get up to the price level of the Springfield TRP the table are turned in favor of Springfield imho. Beyond that in price I'd get a Les Baer.

[Father Knows Best]

I love Paras. I have several. For my money, they're the best value out there in terms of quality vs. price.

That said, I comfortably recommend not just Para but Colt, Dan Wesson and Springfield Armory. Colts tend to be a little pricier, but the quality is there these days (that wasn't always the case) and they hold their value better than the others. DW and SA are right in line with Para in terms of offering great features and very good quality and a good price.

I'm not a fan of the current Kimber line. I have one -- it's a custom shop gun and it's very nice, but it was also expensive. Most Kimbers seem to me to be overpriced when compared to SA, DW and Para, in particular, and they seem to be loaded with the "tactical" flavor of the month like useless forward slide serrations.

The SIG GSR and S&W1911 also look nice, but are pricey and I don't have much personal experience with them.

I've gone with Para for my CCW and competition guns because of some Para features (I really like the new Power Extractor on all models, and I use an LDA Para for CCW), and because the Paras I examined were very well put together. My SSP (full size, single action, single stack traditional 1911) has been flawless, with 100% reliability and exceptional accuracy for a sub-$600 1911.

In addition, if you like the commander size, Para is offering a $25 rebate on the alloy framed LTC. There's a coupon on the back of the current Shotgun News.

But handle as many as you can at a well stocked gun store, and go with the one (from the brands listed above) that you are most comfortable with.

[mattw]

You likely haven't owned an Armscor.

You're right, I don't own and have not owned an armscor, i was just relaying what i've read and heard. nice to hear i was wrong :)

about the RIAs: I know that armscor and RIA is the same thing, i will admit i am probably wrong about the parts interchangability but i have read several reviews of crappy RIAs. Have you had any experience with one that you know was made recently? Guns sit on the shelf in oil NIB for a few years some times before they sell.

[drf]

Colt XSE 45ACP Government.....All the others are clones..........drf

[HSMITH]

On the Para subject, I am a BIG fan of the Para pistols. I have had quite a few and still inventory one that I dearly love. The new ones I have been seeing over the last year or so have not been up the quality of older guns and going downhill. The most recent guns I have seen have had fair to absurdly bad slide to frame fit, no more of the tight and smooth that we used to see. The barrel fit has been fair to terrible, no more of the precision lockup we used to see on most Para guns. If you get one with a fair barrel fit and a fair slide to frame fit it will run like a swiss watch and provide all the practical accuracy you can expect from a mass produced service pistol. If you get one that is bad and bad it will be a real mess and if you can't do the work yourself it will cost you several hundred dollars to straighten out.

I like them, and will still buy them, but I will go into it knowing that I will likely have to fit the slide to the frame and replace the barrel to get a good fit with the reliability I demand and the accuracy I want.

It really is sad to see the decline, when the Para production guns first came out they were fit as well or better than guns costing many times more. They were accurate, REALLY accurate, and reliable back then.

[Geno]

DRF:

You are so right! My Colt XSE is not only reliable, it is the most comfortable of my 1911s to hold. It is "undercut" at the grip/trigger guard...wow! Let's not even bother talking accuracy.

Okay, gentlemen and ladies who visit here...here is my thoughts on this, and please redirect me if I'm wrong. We ALL LOVE our 1911s! We suffer from "brand loyalty". There is a ton of psychological research on that topic (by the way, by profession, I am a doctoral research professor).

This is what I propose. First, I think it would be awesome if a group of 1911 owners, not the manufacturers conducted a professional, reliable, organized research. First, we have to determine what we want to discover. Do we want to inquire into reliable function? Accuracy? What is our research question? Do we want to ask the "p" value for a 1911 to suffer failure? If so, we do a "probability" test. There are so many tests that 1911 owners and some "egg-head professor" could pull off, and we would all benefit. Then, when people such as Sgtb asks what to do Re: 1911, we can ask specific questions, and give specific, research based answers. There is only one hitch...we have to assure ourselves to not "tweek" the data...bias is unprofessional. Is there any interest in tracking accuracy, failures? By the way, the statistical test I am thinking of using is called "multiple variable (variant) regression.

Using this statistic, the researcher can determine, for example, the extent to which each of any give 8 to 10 variables are most highly correlated to the given assessment. For example, fails to feed, was it related to (not caused…correlation is NOT causation) the measurement of the rails, the barrel's tightness, actual diameter of the cartridge, bullet shape (hollow point, ball), or others. This would involve A LOT of work, and VERY picky, and I mean PICKY record-keeping with digital photos to "proof" the test's professionalism.

Am I going too far overboard here? If so, please be honest about that feedback. If anyone thinks that such an inquiry might be beneficial, let's talk about who would like to participate, when, how, etc. Who knows, maybe a bullet manufacturer or two might kick up some bullets for such an unbiased test. Then again, maybe they won't and so we simply document our own range time. Even if just one person wants to do this, any current spreadsheet will conduct statistical tests for you...you don't even have to know statistics...just select the test you want from the menu...you just enter the numbers into the spreadsheet as normal.

Doc2005

[Father Knows Best]

HSMITH said:I like them, and will still buy them, but I will go into it knowing that I will likely have to fit the slide to the frame and replace the barrel to get a good fit with the reliability I demand and the accuracy I want.

It really is sad to see the decline, when the Para production guns first came out they were fit as well or better than guns costing many times more. They were accurate, REALLY accurate, and reliable back then.

That hasn't been my experience. I have two Paras that I bought new in the last year. Both are 2004 models -- an SSP (full size, single action, single stack) and a CCW (commander slide on officer frame, LDA, single stack). Both had a few FTFs during break-in with the factory mags, but have been 100% reliable since then, using everything from cheap semi-wadcutter reloads to expensive Hydra-Shok and Ranger hollowpoints. I've never had a FTE in either gun, and I love the Para Power Extractor design. Both are also much more accurate than I expected. I haven't done precise accuracy testing with the CCW (that's not what I bought it for) but it puts .45 caliber holes right where I want them, time after time. I have shot groups with the SSP, and they're better than both my Colt and my Kimber. On top of that, the SSP has the best trigger I've ever found on an out-of-the-box production 1911. It breaks cleanly and crisply at 4-1/2 pounds, every time, with almost no take-up and no discernable creep (the CCW has a bit more creep in the second stage than I would like, but again, it's not a target gun so I don't worry about it).

I bought the SSP because I was looking for a plinking/competition/HD 1911. I tried out Kimbers, Colts, SAs, Dan Wessons and others at the shop. The Para SSP had the best fit of all of them -- tight but smooth. It also had the best trigger. I recommend the SSP to anyone, but also encourage anyone buying a new 1911 to examine a range of choices in a well stocked shop before handing over any $.

[Brass Balls]

I'm trying to prevent what you speak of, Doc. Towards that end I own 1911s made by Kimber, Springfield, Baer, Wilson, Colt and S&W PC. :)

[Beethoven]

Colt.

[Fatelvis]

Id go with a Kimber.

[meathammer]

I own two full-sized Springfield loadeds, no problems with either. One I bought new, one I bought used. No real brand loyalty here. Just my personal experience. A good pistol for the money.


--meathammer

[HSMITH]

Father knows best, I would say that you got guns on the better end of the spectrum. I have been looking at literally dozens of them, and the trend I see isn't good. Guns in years past were much better.

[DHart]

I've bought somewhere around thirty new 1911's in the last few years. Started with Springfield, then Kimber Series 1's, then while looking for another Kimber I discovered the Colts. Of the three, I'll never buy another Kimber, although I do have two series 1's left of the number of them that I bought. The problems I had with them and those others have had and my refusal to own a 1911 with the Schwartz system in it will keep me away from Kimbers. Kimber also uses the least expensive parts available... nearly every Kimber part aside from slide and frame is MIM. Not my cup of tea.

Springfield is making some guns I would buy. Currently, my only remaining SPringfield is a black TRP. Great gun... I really like it. I would recommend Springfield even though they too are using a lot of MIM parts and many of their guns are made in whole or in part in Brazil.

Saving my favorite for last... Colt is making awesome 1911's these days. Their quality of steel, quality of small parts, and proper fit for reliability makes them a top choice. They're a bit more costly, but you get a better quality gun with better quality parts. There are only three MIM parts on current Colts... they can be replaced for about $70 for a completely MIM-free 1911. My experience with about twenty new Colts in the last few years is that they can typically be expected to run flawlessly right out of the box... regardless of ammo, regardless of magazine type or brand. No "break-in" period excuse for bobbles... they just run right. My latest is a 2005 production XSE blued Government... fantastic gun... highly recommended in blue or stainless:

http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Guns/XSE_R_7310.jpg

http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Guns/XSE_L_7298.jpg

http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Guns/XSE_LR_7300.jpg

http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Guns/XSE_L_7292.jpg

http://www.legendportraits.com/Images/Guns/XSE_R_7305.jpg

I have since put a short, solid trigger in this gun along with a single-sided GI-style thumb safety and Wilson beavertail grip safety... just some tweaks to make the gun exactly the way I like my 1911's. Not needed changes.

[Geno]

That is so true. Okay, here is my updated regarding my bad experience. It truly makes me see the good in humanity.

The dealer where I had purchased my Kimbers made things right today. I finally traded off my final remaining Kimber...the Gold Combat. What did I get? The Warrior. This time I broke the gun down, and examined it at every minute point. It was tight, precise and properly put together. I only fired about 70 rounds through it today, but it experienced zero failures of any sort. Accuracy was better today than I was capable of doing. I still love my Colts. I agree with DHart. Colt is awesome, but then isn't any 1911 awesome that works, and that adheres to quality control's standards?

If there is any lesson for me to be learned I think it is this...before buying any firearm, break it down, examine it as thoroughly as is possible. Be picky BEFORE the sale, and you won't have to worry about being picky after the sale.

Here's to hoping it works proprly for many, many years.

Doc2005

[sgtb]

I am leaning heavily toward the colt XSE or a Para SSP. I have heard nothing bad about the new Colts. How about this Para model? It is the single action, single stack 5in. model.

[Father Knows Best]

I have a Para SSP that I bought new about a year ago. It's the best autopistol I've ever purchased new. The trigger is great -- breaking cleanly and crisply at 4-1/2 pounds. It digests everything I give it with 100% reliability. That includes Federal 185 and 230 grain Hydra-Shok JHP, Winchester Ranger SXT 230 JHP (RA45T), cheap PMC ball, and even 200 grain LSWC with horribly dirty powder that I got cheap from a commercial reloader (I have to clean it thoroughly after shooting that stuff but it functions great). Accuracy has been excellent, too, for a stock 1911.

My only complaint is that the stock Para mags are less than top quality, but that's true of every 1911 under $1,000. I do get the very occasional last-round FTF with the stock Para mags. I just put them back in the box, and use Wilson or CMC mags, and get 100% reliability with them.

[DHart]

Keep in mind that you can find negative reports about every gun brand you can name... no maker turns out a flawless gun every single time... there are plenty of WIlsons, Baers, even Browns that didn't run quite right or were finnicky with certain ammo brands, magaznie brands, etc. so don't hold it totally against a brand when you hear an occasional complaint.

What's more important is how the complaint was taken care of.

I would pay most attention to determining the build quality of parts (MIM vs. traditional methods), overall build quality, and the operating systems (series 70, series 80, Schwartz) in making your purchase decision. My choices in these matters is toward guns which have more traditional parts manufacturing methods (forged, cast, etc. vs. MIM) and series 70/80 systems... that's why I prefer Colts myself. And one of the main reasons I prefer Colts is my experience with so many of them running flawlessly right out of the box with any brand of factory ammo and any brand of quality magazine... it seems that many of the other 1911 brands tend to be more finnicky about certain ammo or certain mags. And Colts don't tend to need any "break-in" period to be reliable. Some of the seemingly more "finnicky" brand makers will tell you when you have functional problems that you need to shoot 500-1000 rounds through the gun to "break it in" before trying to figure out functional problems. I hate spending that much time and ammo just to see if it helps make a new gun run right!

Get yourself a nice Colt... you can get mil-spec styles in blued and stainless, series 70 and series 80, Government and Commander sizes. Then there are the more contemporary-featured Colts, the XSE line... again, blue or stainless, Government and Commander, and lightweight. Not to mention the Gold Cups, Special Combat Government, Gunsite... there's a LOT to love about the new Colts!

To each his own preferences.

[paul45]

check Ellett Bros. or Davidson's for Colts. They have over 200 1911 Colts between them as I post this. Get a Colt.