[longhorngunman]

Just got my RRA M4gery, me likey! :) I bought some Hornady TAP 60gr for home defense, but now I'm wondering if these still have too much penetration. Yes I know everyone says get a shot gun and I do keep a Win 1300 Defender under the bed with 00 buckshot. But after doing some reading buckshot seems to penetrate sheetrock and insulation worse than the .223 bullets that usually fragment. Seems that handgun calibers aren't much better. Anyways I'm just wondering what members here use for HD. I know there is not any round that will always do like it is supposed too, but something that has a good rep for coming apart after hitting an object in close quarters. Thanks!

[Cesiumsponge]

There were a few threads and good discussion on this subject a few weeks back. Federal 50gr frangible seemed to do well (well defined as least penetration) in drywall but there isn't too much information on it's effects as a manstopper (though you have 30 shots in an AR). The lighter hollowpoint, ballistic tip, and varmint rounds seem to be recommended as a lesser-penetrating home defense ammo. They tend to have a lighter bullet design and fragment easier due to higher velocities.

Also it was recommended that heavier stuff from Black Hills might work well too depending on your barrel twist. I believe it had an Mk something designation. Federal and Black Hills makes good stuff, hard to go wrong with their selection.

Right now I have a magazine of 45gr Winchester JHP white box varmint loads for home defense until I get some of the recommended stuff.

[Ed]

http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

The answer lies here. :)

[JShirley]

If you can still find it, Federal American Eagle 50-grain HP .223 was quite inexpensive, accurate, and demonstrated explosive fragmentation when I tested it in water. (16" barrel)

John

[mete]

Federal 40 Gr in 223 has the least penetration which is less than some handgun rounds.

[GunGoBoom]

You can learn more truth and substance in reading ammo-oracle in 30 minutes than you can from reading for 5 years of stuff on errornet gun boards.

[geekWithA.45]

This thread has data from Federal Cartridge's LEO info page.

IIRC, it's inches of penetration after passing through a windshield. There's a load that only penetrates 1.5 inches after that.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=146306


Whether that's a good thing, in that it will properly attend to the HD job is an open question.

[longhorngunman]

Yea I've read the ammo-oracle. It's filled with good information and some interesting surprises. Still don't think I'd want m193 for inside home use. They had good things to say about the ballistic tip bullet and it's reliability to expand and fragment. I think I chose a good load to begin with and the police seem to like it, so I'll stick with the Hornady TAP loads for now. :)

[VaughnT]

I use 45g JHP from UMC. It's available locally in 200rnd boxes and can be found for less than $60, usually.

My carbine has a 16" 1/7 barrel and the accuracy at home-defense distances has been very very good. I'm talking about a 2" group at 55', off of a RAID pack that doubled as a sandbag that day. Somebody else might be able to do better, but with my eyes, and this being the second time I've ever shot through a peep sight, I'm happy.

Penetration looks to be less than a foot in the gelatin tests. That's exactly what I'm looking for.

[Rockstar]

Any of the polymer-tipped varmint bullets would do fine. I'd worry a lot more about whre that buckshot would bounce around and wind up than anything else that you've mentioned.

[sumpnz]

While you're at it, consider switching the 12ga to #1 buck shot. According to a couple tests I've seen it gave the least penetration of drywall of any load that would still give reliable lethal wounds at typical HD ranges.

[chopinbloc]

i concur with the 45gr umc jhp, but caution it may not feed reliably in all ar's. my mini loves it as does my colt, but the bushmaster doesn't like it. it has a significantly shorter bullet than other rounds. the #1 buckshot sounds like a good idea, though i've never seen tests on it. i have seen informal tests of #7 1/2 high brass birdshot and it has almost no wounding potential after passing through a normal interior wall with two sheets of drywall. almost all the pellets were embedded in the second sheet of drywall and though the drywall was blown out in a dramatically large hole, it literally fell to the ground inches from the wall. i'm not sure of the distance, but i think it was about twenty feet. at home, i keep two rounds of #7 1/2 birdshot as the first out the tube and the rest #00 buck. i also keep a rubber buckshot round on the stock in case it becomes neccessary to teach someone a whole new way to hurt. i know this is a rifle forum, but due to penetration, legal, adaptability and tissue damage issues, i maintain a good pump is best for home defense. the rifle should be for homeland defense - wiping out the hordes of half crazed visigoths.

[longhorngunman]

Yea, for my shot gun I need to go down to #1 buckshot atleast. I thought my shotgun setup was fine until I started studying penetration results. :eek: As far as the 7 1/2 shot goes, well that might not have enough to reach vitals especially if it's a burglar doped up on who knows what. I like the Ar for it's relatively low penetration with the right ammo, lightweight , easy to move around, hi-capacity ;) , and ability to modify it. I'll have to try that UMC 45gr load, sounds interesting and might be better for where I live.

[Double Naught Spy]

Our local PD SWAT folks use 35 grain (I think it is 35 gr) Hornady TAP with the plastic ballistic tips. According to their testing, these very light and very fast are very poor performers when to comes to penetrating two layers of drywall, in other words, what you would commonly find on a typical interior wall. The benefit is that they are very unlikely to hit another officer or non-combatant in another room (on other side of wall) should one of their shots miss. If the round does manage to pass through the wall, passing through the second layer of drywall is not a solid slug, just fragments carrying little residual energy.

I understand their reasoning for using the rounds, but would not want to use them myself. They can get away with using ammo that does not penetrate all that well because when they are doing their job, they are in fulll body armor and have the support of several other team members working with them, all of whom have first aid training and at least one of which is an actual EMT.

In defending my home, I probably won't have fully body armor, won't have a whole team to come to my aid and help ing neutralizing threats, and won't have an EMT on hand should I get hurt. I want a little more penetrative power as my circumstances are completely unlike theirs in that I don't have any of those benefits.

[coylh]

.223 blanks have pretty low penetration of drywall. Lethality falls off significantly as range increases however.

I don't have any experience with frangible bullets, but you can test something like these (http://www.ammoman.com/webstore_223.htm scroll down to frangible) and see if they do better than standard light weight hp.

[gm]

the ballistic tipped round is a good compromise between the frangable and the jacketed hp. frangable is made from powdered tin and alloys, its dust when it impacts anything hard. the ballistic stuff is a cu jacketed round with a flat tip and the tip has a plastic filler/soft lead core.

remington sells them as do alot of manufacturers for varmiters but the cheapest and most consistant, Ive found has been the blackhills in the 50 rnd box for 20 bucks.

[LAR-15]

M193 and M855 do not penetrate walls.

Almost no 223 does because it fragments when it hits the wall.
M193 equivalents should be fine.

So should the Hornady TAP.

[griz]

Any realistic HD round will penetrate drywall with ease. Not only have I read it, I tried it. A cheap pellet rifle went through two pieces (one wall). Admitidlly it probably wouldn't break the skin after the trip, but it's so anemic that it makes a good example. I also tried birdshot, buckshot, a 40 grain V-max from a 223, a Nosler Partition for the other extreme of 223, a 22 LR, and 9mm Gold Dots. The birdshot penetrated the least, but it did make it though the first wall. I think if the distance was doubled, it would greatly reduce the penetration because the pattern would spread beyond the 3 inches or so that it was. Everything else went through a lot more walls.

I would go with your first choice of 60 grains. The 40 grain bullets are soft enough to stop inside of critters the size of coyotes. The 60 should give a bit more and still ensure expansion. Some folks like the various FMJ rounds, but fragmentation seems only likely to me. I prefer the soft/polymer points and sure expansion.

And you really should check out this site. (http://www.theboxotruth.com/)

[Cesiumsponge]

M193 and M855 do not penetrate walls.

Box O Truth tested XM193 out of a 16" carbine barreled AR.

First test (BoT #1) and XM193 penetrated a 12 drywall sheet stack and kept going. It was tumbling, but it kept punching through the sheets. They replaced it with pine boards and it penetrated all those too and kept going.

Second test (BoT #2), also tested XM193 on four sheets of drywall and a water jug after it. It tumbled on the fourth but exploded the jug, pierced the pine backstop, and blew up a brick behind the pine backstop. Using the same test, they loaded a 69gr frangible round on the hot side as recommended. It pierced the four sheets of drywall, was already fragmented, and the fragmented particles entered the jug and never exited.

Third test setup. (BoT #14) They built actual drywall sheets on 2x4 studs. XM193 went through all 4 walls (8 sheets). Remington 55gr soft point jacketed soft point penetrated all 4 walls too, but it was fragmented and produced multiple holes on the last wall. They tested an unnamed frangible round in 5.56mm and it fragmented into 4 pieces at the second wall and entered the fourth wall. It is not mentioned if it had penetrated the other side of the 4th wall.

Last test setup (BoT #4, identical setup as BoT#1) Tested Federal 50gr frangible. Penetrated 8 drywall sheets and bounced off 9th. In BoT #1, .45 and 9mm penetrated all 12 sheets used. XM193 penetrated all 12 sheets.

Shows XM193 penetrating very well in all tests. Frangible didn't penetrate as much, nor did the jacketed soft point from Remington. XM193 did not show signs of fragmentation in the drywall and pine targets, as indicitive to well documented fragmentation in soft tissue.

[Jeff White]

It ALL penetrates walls (unless your walls are reinforced concrete). Don't buy any ammo thinking you can get into a multi magazine gunfight and not endanger your child sleeping in the next room.

5.56x45 is less likely to kill or severly injure someone after it penetrates the walls because it often fragments and the oddly shaped fragments lose velocity quickly.

There are no guarantees. Frangible ammo doesn't usually have adequate terminal effects on the badguy. Load your AR with ammuntion that gives adequate terminal effects and spend the rest of your time and money training so that you can put your bullets into the badguy..........

Jeff

[Blackhawk 6]

M193 and M855 do not penetrate walls.
100% FALSE.

Longhorngunman, take Jeff's advice.

[longhorngunman]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Well at the farm this past weekend I did a little redneck ingenuity ballistic testing on my own on water jugs, 1 inch thick wood door, and an old hog feeding crate(2.5 inch thick three piece wood, empty space for 3 ft and at the other end another 2.5 inch thick three piece wood). The results:
1) Hornady 60gr TAP- Completely shredded 1st water jug second water jug was penetrated by three fragments, wooden door behind jugs showed signs of indentions but no penetration(My 9mm Gold Dot HP rds would go clean through two water jugs and make a severe dent on a 55 gallon metal drum).

TAP rd would go completely through 1inch wood door with direct shot, then fragment through one sheet of thin sheetmetal and make indentions on the second layer of sheetmetal.

2) Winchester 45gr HP,3600fps-Shot at two water jugs in line the 45gr would instantly fragment on the 1st water jug and did absolutely no damage to 2nd water jug. I found several fragments in bottom of 1st water jug.
On hog crate the 45gr would penetrate 2.5inch wood and then imbedded on other end of hog crate.

3) Winchester Q3131A 55gr(Supposed to be equivalent of m193 NATO rd.)- Penetrated both water jugs easily and went through 1inch wooden door behind jugs(with no signs of fragmentation) and kept going. Uh this won't be my HD round. Sorry to all the Q3131A and M193 fans out there, I'll save this stuff for flat out SHTF situations. :rolleyes:

4) Speer Gold Dot .40 cal rd 155gr fired with Glock G23- Went through two waterjugs and completely through inch wooden door showing signs of expansion but still penetrating. This is my CCW weapon and defense round. Also shot at hog crate and the .40 penetrated 1st 2.5inches of wood and penetrated the next 2.5 inches of wood and still went through two layers of sheetmetal. :what:

I forgot to include that the .223 rds were fired out of a RRA entry tactical,M4 varient w/16 inch barrel. Distance fired to water jugs was 15ft, at hog crate was about 5ft.
Again not nowhere near scientific testing but gave valuable info to me. Even though the 45gr Win's penetrated least, I'm afraid there not enough to incapacitate a bad guy and I will stick with the TAP loads. Also it is clearly true that the right AR round is better for HD than even hollow point handgun rds. Need to try the 12gauge with buckshot next. :)

[TX_RGR]

fwiw, no. 4 buckshot shows acceptable penetration in living tissue and theres 25+ pellets so more room for error, with less potential collateral damage.