What do the Marines have strapped to their rifle?


PDA






ballistic gelatin
March 21, 2003, 04:41 PM
What do these Marines have tied to their rifles?

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030321/capt.1048260548.iraq_us_military_war_xits105.jpg

Also, I can't help but notice that the Army guys have flattops with red dots and fancy equipment, while the Marines have standard iron sight and 20" barrels.

If you enjoyed reading about "What do the Marines have strapped to their rifle?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Sleeping Dog
March 21, 2003, 04:58 PM
Also, I can't help but notice that the Army guys have flattops with red dots and fancy equipment, while the Marines have standard iron sight and 20" barrels.

Yeah, but on average, I'd bet the Marine with the A2 will hit what he aims at more than the Army guy with flat-top/red-dot. Yes, there are exceptions.

Plus, the Marines have traditionally gotten the new gear slower than the Army. The Army got M1's while the Marines waded ashore at Guadalcanal with 1903 Springfields. I think the Marines are way downstream in the budget flow.

Regards.

Frohickey
March 21, 2003, 05:02 PM
Marines are part of the Navy, and ships cost more than rifles. Is that a knife that I see the Marine out in front have on his right hip? The one with the anti-tank missile launcher (Dragon?)

Jeff White
March 21, 2003, 05:03 PM
Although the pic isn't all that close, it looks like they have the AN/PAQ-4 Infrared Aiming Light mounted on their M16s. This is an infrared laser that is used with passive night vision (AN'PVS-5, 7 or 14 depending on what the unit is issued) to aim the weapon in the dark.

The Marine with the M203 has the mount for the AN/PVS-7 or 14 on his kevlar.

Jeff

buzz_knox
March 21, 2003, 05:03 PM
I think the add-ons are laser designators, but can't be positive.

As for the Marines, I believe they are including the M16A4 (flattop with modular handguards) in the inventory. Just takes a while to get them in stock, although I've seen one photo of a 3rd Infantry Division soldier with one.

By the way, that's not a Dragon. It's an AT-4 light anti-armor weapon, the successor to the classic LAAW rocket.

gun-fucious
March 21, 2003, 05:11 PM
http://members.shaw.ca/night-vision/ttps_for_a_night_attack.htm

The world's Finest
The AN/PAQ-4C incorporates
lessons learned with Aiming
Lights in Desert Storm, other
combat operations and extensive
field operation, plus production
experience. Over 20,400 Aiming
Lights were produced in 1993-1996
and 40,000 were produced
in 1996-1999. The result is an
easy mount, quick to zero Aiming
Light with beam quality and
range unmatched in any eye safe
device

Operations
The AN/PAQ-4C provides a
rapid, accurate aim point for
personnel engaged in Night
Operations. The AN/PAQ-4C
does this by projecting a highly
collimated (0.3 mr) laser beam
invisible to the eye but readily
seen with Night Vision Goggles.
Once boresighted to a weapon,
the operator simply puts the laser
beam on the target and fires. The
AN/PAQ-4C has a range of 1,000
meters, accuracy equivalent to the
finest optical sights, and ease and
rapidity of aiming unequaled in
any conventional sight.

Detritus
March 21, 2003, 05:15 PM
i'm with Jeff on this,

You'll also notice that of the guys with the device in question on their rifle, the Grenadier is the only one who doesn't have a pair of goggles hiked up on his helmet covering the area that the mounting bracket for the AN/PVS-7 or 14 mount. so i'd say the othger three guys with the desinators installed ALSO have teh mounting bracket on but their gogles are hiding it.

buzz_knox
March 21, 2003, 05:20 PM
Notice the guy in the far left background carrying just the Beretta? I'd hate to be out there with just the sidearm.

gun-fucious
March 21, 2003, 05:23 PM
more Marines:
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030321/capt.1048278866.iraq_us_military_war_reb116.jpg

Steve Smith
March 21, 2003, 05:23 PM
So it accounts for bullet drop? It has an auto rangefinding feature? You don't have to answer.

Frohickey
March 21, 2003, 05:26 PM
Notice the finger off the trigger...

Slick
March 21, 2003, 05:26 PM
They look kinda like MREs to me, yea, they use them to lure hungry Iraqis into surrendering... :D

Nice outfits, Woodland Camo with Desert Camo Helmet covers????
Maybe a Training Excercise somewhere?

Gunfucious, awesome pic! Glad to see him go.

gun-fucious
March 21, 2003, 05:33 PM
heres my pic o the day:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030321/170/3ktkn.html

heres a better shot of the NV helmet mount:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030321/168/3kxcu.html

ajacobs
March 21, 2003, 05:40 PM
It is more properly worded a laser aimer as opposed to a designator. A designator like a glid is used to light up targets for presision air fire.

So it accounts for bullet drop? It has an auto rangefinding feature? You don't have to answer.

No, Being a laser it goes in a perfectly straight line. It is primary purpose is similar to a laser sight. IT is used becuase you can't look down the sights with night vision.

El Tejon
March 21, 2003, 05:47 PM
Slick, most likely wearing woodie BDUs for night. If I had to climb down off a track, I'd prefer woodland.

ajacobs
March 21, 2003, 05:55 PM
I wouldn't be supprised if they are wearing woodland becuase they don't have the new desert. There is such a thing as night desert also.

Steve Smith
March 21, 2003, 05:56 PM
Ummm...ok, I said you didn' t have to answer because I already knew the answer. Of course the beam of light doesn't bend (refraction around the Earth's curvature notwithstanding). It would have to have an auto range finder and shift the image in the night vision in relation to the laser to actually compensate for drop, which of course it doesn't (yet). Now, I could build something like that for them...hmm... It just seems silly for the "official" info to mention 1km if it doesn't auto correct for distance. The GI will probably think that just because the dot is on his target he will hit it, but will fall way way short.

Chipperman
March 21, 2003, 06:19 PM
"Notice the guy in the far left background carrying just the Beretta? I'd hate to be out there with just the sidearm."

What you can't see is that he's dragging a Howitzer with his other hand. :D

Jeff White
March 21, 2003, 06:20 PM
The AN/PEQ-2 is the weapons mounted target designator. Has a much more powerful laser in it then the AN/PAQ-4C.

Jeff

Al Thompson
March 21, 2003, 06:38 PM
I don't think camo willl make much difference. Those guys aren't there to hide. :)

Nightcrawler
March 21, 2003, 06:38 PM
I'm willing to bet that they're wearing green cammies because they're in MOPP suits, they just haven't goin all the way to MOPP IV.

Destructo6
March 21, 2003, 06:43 PM
Notice the guy in the far left background carrying just the Beretta? I'd hate to be out there with just the sidearm.
That's probably Doc. Pistol or shotgun is all he's allowed to carry and at that, it probably shouldn't be out of the holster. Must be practicing preventative medicine.

Nightcrawler
March 21, 2003, 06:48 PM
For readers unfamiliar with the lingo, the "Doc" would be a Navy Corpsman. They, and their Medic bretheren in the other armed forces, are typically armed only with a sidearm, as per (I believe) Geneva Conventions rules.

another okie
March 21, 2003, 08:55 PM
The main reason the Marines were slow to get the Garand in WW II is that they didn't trust a semiauto until it was proven in combat and in harsh conditions. They weren't sure it went with their traditions of marksmanship. (Do you say markspersonship now?)

SIGarmed
March 21, 2003, 09:34 PM
It looks like they're wearing mopp(mission oriented protective posture) suits. Short barreled rifles aren't issued Marine Corps wide and they aren't going to be. Thats probably a wise choice considering the terrain they're in right now.

JShirley
March 21, 2003, 09:51 PM
Will you still say that if they are forced to fight house-to-house?

John

SIGarmed
March 21, 2003, 10:03 PM
Will you still say that if they are forced to fight house-to-house?

John

Being a good fighter has more to do with the fighter than it has to do with infatuation regarding barrel length. The gear don't make the men. Me thinks four inches don't account for much.

mons meg
March 22, 2003, 01:11 AM
No! That 4 inches is crucial!



for your bayonet.... :D

JShirley
March 22, 2003, 05:50 PM
Me thinks four inches (more) don't account for much.

I know some who would disagree. :evil:


Anyway, if 4" doesn't make much difference, then why your original comment?

Dr.Rob
March 22, 2003, 08:15 PM
That additional 4 inches of barrel makes that green tipped ss109 ammo to operate properly. Those M-4 carbines and that standard issue ammo don't operate well past 75 or so yars (the bullet doesn't break up) or at least that's the running rumor.

What are them things??

A really FAR FORWARD ASSIST.:neener:

Thanks folks and enjoy the buffet.

voilsb
March 22, 2003, 08:29 PM
For readers unfamiliar with the lingo, the "Doc" would be a Navy Corpsman. They, and their Medic bretheren in the other armed forces, are typically armed only with a sidearm, as per (I believe) Geneva Conventions rules.well, the medics in my company (rifle company, infantry, army not marine) are issued and train with M4s. dunno if they'd go to combat like that, but that's how they train.


oh, and regarding Jeff's post about the PEQ-2 vs PAQ-4 ... I don't know what the official designation is for our weapons-mounted infrared aiming lasers, but we call them "pack fours" and the identifying sticker says "PAQ-4."
it looks different from a PEQ-2, and is completely different from a the PAQ-4 you describe. I remember hunting online for info on the ones we use, and couldn't find them. all product specs with pictures I could find of a PEQ-2 are not what we use, and the pictures of the PAQ-4 were a hand-carried device, which is also not what we use.
whatever it's properly called, we refer to it as a PAQ-4, though.

Jeff White
March 23, 2003, 12:47 AM
voilsb,
There are a couple of models of the AN/PAQ-4 in the field. Some RC units still have PAQ-4As which are round in shape. The PAQ-4C is the most recent issue and they are flat. The PAQ-4 is a laser aiming light to allow you to aim while wearing night vision goggles.

The AN/PEQ-2 looks somewhat like the PAQ-4. It has a much more powerful laser that can be used to designate targets for some platforms.

Dr. Rob,

It's only been in the last few years that wounding capability has been studied. Contrary to popular belief, M855 doesn't bounce off your BDU jacket out past 100 meters when fired from an M4. It has the velocity to provide it's optimum wounding capabilities out to almost 120 meters. This is well within the range that most infantry combat occurs. All sides fought WWII with .30 caliber weapons for their main Infnatry rifle. Yet engagements rarely occured at ranges longer the 300 yards and most often occured at ranges of 100 yards and closer. Our soldiers are far from being inadequately armed because they have M4s.

Jeff - who is so tired of hearing about how M4s are totally ineffective is about to challenge the next person who spreads this disinformation to stand up and take a round or two COM from an M4 at say 300 meters.

Nightcrawler
March 23, 2003, 02:58 AM
Will you still say that if they are forced to fight house-to-house?

I would. I've done a bit of close quarters training with a 20" barreled M16A1. The M16 is a light, handy weapon, and it's hardly an unweidly 2x4 that becomes unusable indoors, as many of the people selling carbines would have you believe. Remember too that military M16s have lighter barrels than your typical HBAR-15, so they point quite a bit faster.

That said, remember also the SAW gunners, with their 40" OAL, 20lbs weapons will have to fight house to house too, if it comes to it. If THEY can do it, the M16 guys can.

I believe the Marines chose the 20" barrel for a reason. It's not that the M4 carbine is useless, but the 20" barrel gives you better ballistics at even longer ranges, with the minor tradeoff of being some 5" longer.

The vast bulk of combat takes place out side, not in an upstairs hallway. The Marines chose to plan for that, and thusly the weapon is a compromise. For tight indoor spaces, a 10" barrel would be handier than a 14" one, and would still be lethal enough at short range. Again, everything is a compromise. I, personally feel that a 20" light barrel (M16A1 or A2 weight) is the best choice for a general-purpose 5.56mm rifle.

For those that insist CQB is impossible with such a weapon, I submit the following:

-The military does, in fact, conduct CQB training with these weapons.

-Many folks use 18" and 20" barreled shotguns for the same purpose.


So a 14" barrel would be handier, but once again, everything is a tradeoff, and I for one agree with the Marines' choice to go with the M16A4 over the M4A1.

well, the medics in my company (rifle company, infantry, army not marine) are issued and train with M4s. dunno if they'd go to combat like that, but that's how they train.

Really? Huh. All the medics I've seen have carried pistols only, but I haven't been around much. I had thought that Medics, technically being "noncombatants", are supposed to be armed only with defensive weapons, i.e., pistols. I guess maybe they realized that nobody we're going to go to war with plays by the rules and gave the medics a weapon with more battlefield utility.

Destructo6
March 23, 2003, 04:58 AM
yeah, the Geneva Convention requires that medical personnel carry only defensive arms. Those being pistols or shotguns. The only time you're supposed to carry a rifle is to guard/protect a medical facility. These were some of the requirements given to us when I went through Field Medical Service School (FMSS).

In reality, about the only countries that would abide by the Geneva Convention are those that we probably would never fight. So, a fair number toss away their Geneva Convention priviledges and carry a rifle anyway. I would.

voilsb
March 23, 2003, 05:21 AM
Really? Huh. All the medics I've seen have carried pistols only, but I haven't been around much. I had thought that Medics, technically being "noncombatants", are supposed to be armed only with defensive weapons, i.e., pistols. I guess maybe they realized that nobody we're going to go to war with plays by the rules and gave the medics a weapon with more battlefield utility.well, just because that's how we train doesn't mean it's current doctrine. it might also be different b/c we use M4s instead of M16s. it might also be different because we're army and not marines. and also maybe different because we're NG. kinda hard to tell until we enter a combat zone. no big deal, either.

as for the PAQ-4, I *finally* found a picture showing it, and yes it's a PAQ-4C. it's standard for the army, dunno about marines. looks like this, and mounts just like on the first picture in this thread:http://www.specwargear.com/images/laser-4C-2.jpg
for some reason, last time I went looking for pictures of it I couldn't find any. then again, I think I was looking for PEQ-4, which is wrong.

Nightcrawler
March 23, 2003, 02:41 PM
I'm in the National Guard too, actually. You guys have M4s? Hell, we still have M16A1s! (Not that I mind. I like the A1.)

I think that's one of the reasons we didn't get sent to the Gulf. We seem to be rather far down on the "getting new equipment" list...

Gewehr98
March 23, 2003, 02:59 PM
The GI will probably think that just because the dot is on his target he will hit it, but will fall way way short.

Since the bullet drops below the laser boresight line past the laser's zero, why not simply train the shooter to hold over with the laser dot at extended ranges? ;)

voilsb
March 23, 2003, 03:25 PM
I'm in the National Guard too, actually. You guys have M4s? Hell, we still have M16A1s! (Not that I mind. I like the A1.)we're part of a separate infantry brigade (enhanced), so we get neat toys due to extra federal money. we get M4s, M240Bs, PVS-14s, MILES2000, aimpoints and ACOGs (just a handful of ACOGS); we go to germany, great britain, and JRTC to train about once a year. about half our NCOs are tabbed; we usually send one ir two guys to ranger school a year.

now, if only we could be an airborne unit ... that'd be just plain rad. we have enough jump-qual guys to make it worthwhile, I think (well, the rest of the BN/BDE probably doesn't, but my company does ...)

of course, I like the M16A1 a lot, too. although we rarely need it, safe/semi/auto is still pretty cool to have
:D

Gomez
March 23, 2003, 04:27 PM
Yep, the Oregon Guard were an amazingly well-funded, equipped and trained outfit when I was livng in Eugene. I'd never heard of a NG unit being flown to training conducted by 1SFG (Abn) troops in MOUT, for a drill weekend, until I hooked up with those guys.

Obiwan
March 24, 2003, 06:26 PM
FWIW

My paper this morning had a member of the MEU on the cover.

He was sporting a rifle with an Aimpoint and Surefire Light

He also appeared to have a sidearm which might mark him as a member of a recon platoon

If you enjoyed reading about "What do the Marines have strapped to their rifle?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!