[Dark Tranquility]

Hi everyone, my first post here :D , looks like a nice place.

I guess I’ll state right off the top that I’m a sucker for guns that don’t make noise. Since I don’t at this time want to go though all the BS required to possess a legal sound suppressor I’ve looked for other ways to make guns quiet. About the quietest I’ve ever done was with 158 grain cast lead round nose pushed with about 3.8 grains of Bullseye. Out of my dads 18 inch barreled lever action .357 it sounds like my 10-22 with CCI stingers or some other high velocity cartridges. That’s the lowest power fastest burning combo that was in my loading manual; and that as low as I went.

But then a couple days ago some one on another message board corrupted me by telling of these “Super Light” or “Cat’s Sneeze” loads loaded into rifles. Now of these super lights I continue hearing about the .45/70 super light loaded with 3 grains of Bullseye and a 405 grain lead flat point. From what I read it travels at about 500 fps at the muzzle and out of rifles with a good long barrel makes no noise (or less than pellet gun at least). Has any one ever re loaded these. I see I can get a 32 inch .45/70 barrel for my H&R Handy Rifle and am very tempted.

And another question which has been bugging me for a long time which would be good to answer now. What’s the deal with a fast powder like Bulseye, Unique, 700-X designed for pistols being used in a rifle. I was always under the impression that even a little pistol powder in a rifle would blow it up. But have been reading the past couple days about people using pistol powders (mainly Bulseye) in .45/70, .30/30, .30-06, .223 and many others. Now I’ll admit that they don’t use much 1 or 2 grains and always with a lead bullet but how much pistol powder will blow up a rifle? If you use a soft lead bullet is their any limit to how much pistol powder you can use? And how do you explain a rifle, chambered for a pistol cartridge; this would defy the rules of reloading? How can it be possible to push a .357 mag FMJ out of an 18 inch barrel with 8.7 grains of Bulseye and not have it explode. Don’t get me wrong I know that rifle cartridges loaded with pistol powders and jacketed bullets do explode, but it seems there are exceptions the rules. What are those exceptions? I’d like to know before I proceeded.

Thanks, Dan

[M67]

looks like a nice place It is. Welcome. :)

Although I live in a country where there is no BS required to buy suppressors, I find this "quiet" loading very interesting. I don't really have much experience, though. A shooting buddy and I tried some .30-06 loads with a light charge of very fast pistol powder and found that velocities varied a lot from shot to shot. More testing is required.

The best (only) advice I can give is to check out this place:

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/gunwriters.html

[Thirties]

M67, thanks for posting that interesting link. I also am interested in quiet loads. Right now I'm getting ready to start handloading for my .38 spl just for that reason.

[Scout.308]

DT-

The theory is that when a cartridge is more or less full of powder, only the powder near the flash hole is exposed to the primer flame. The progressive fire-front builds pressure slowly; pressure being moderated by the lengthening combustion chamber.

With a mostly-empty cartridge containing fast powder, the theory is that the primer flame ignites the whole charge at once, and pressure peaks while the bullet is still at rest.

There is substantial debate as to whether this phenomenon is real or an old wives' tale. My personal suspition is that people double-charged way-light loads and didn't know (or wouldn't admit) to it.

It's sorta moot, as when you get to tiny charges in cavernous cases, you should be using dacron filler to hold the charge near the flash-hole for uniform burning. Otherwise velocity goes all over the place, and accuracy goes with it.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Scout.308]

Thirties-

The NRA has a softcover Handloading book that details how to develop ultra-low loads, and uses a .38 as the test bed.

As I recall, they used 148WC with Bullseye. I think they got loads down below one grain! Be carefull, and follow their development system. Remember, the chances of a squib load that fragments your pistol on the next round go way up with this kind of loading. Be focused, double-check loads, and if in doubt, discard (or disassemble) any questionable load. Let's be careful out there!

I have a pet 180gr WC load for my .44M that burns WW231 and flies at just above 600fps. It's a one-hole load (at least when I'm a one-hole shooter!) and is quiet and soft.

It's also my newbie load. New shooters get to start here once they're OK with .22s and .38/.357s and want to climb the .44 power ladder.

[Thirties]

"The NRA has a softcover Handloading book that details how to develop ultra-low loads, and uses a .38 as the test bed."

Thanks. you happen to know the name of it?

[freedomlover]

The Lee Reloading Manual offers some useful tips for greatly reduced, near-silent loads. I tried some .308's w/a 150-gr. cast bullet over 1 gr. of Bullseye and Dacron pillow stuffing keeping the powder near the primer. The report was very like a pellet rifle--extremely quiet--and the rounds were quite accurate out to 25 yards. Past that accuracy really began to suffer due to bullet drop. Don't have a chronograph so don't know about velocity, but my local reloading guru guesses around 500 FPS. Sounds about right to me. Played around with the loads a little and found that you could go up to 2 gr. of Bullseye and keep the noise level way down--as in, hearing protection not required. Haven't tried these reduced loads w/jacketed bullets so can't offer any advice there. If anybody else has, I'd like to hear about their results.

shoot straight

[Frohickey]

Silent loads (http://www.sixgunner.com/FAQ/silent_loads.htm)

I liked the story about sending turtles to heaven. :D

[jacks308]

I have used .311 round ball loads in my .308 and the .22 is louder , have also used 180 gr cast in a 3006 with 2.5 of bullseye tiny groups and low noise .

Works good , Jack

[Fatelvis]

It is amazing to me that 1-2.5 grns of bullseye would push a lead slug all the way down a rifle barrel, let alone be accurate!! Jacks308, did you use dacron,(or other) fillers with your 180 grn/2.5 Bull loads?

[444]

I have played around with this fairly extensively. I got a lot of information from that webpage that M67 posted. Another good source of info is Paco Kelly on www.sixgunner.com look at the archieves, I think they call it "back issues". He has written extensively on "silent loads"
I have taken cast bullets and a fast pistol powder and dropped the load until I stuck a bullet in the bore just to see how low I could go.
One load that I shoot a lot is a cast bullet and 13 grains of Red Dot powder. This load isn't all that quiet, but provides a cheap, low recoil, long brass life load in centerfire rifles. I have shot this load out of .30-06, 7.62x54R, and 7.5 Swiss.
One of the great toys along this line is a "Hammond Game Getter" . It is produced by Hammond Enterprises LTD Box 41061, Petrolia PO Edmonton, Alberta Canada T6JM7. What this little kit consists of is a standard brass cartridge case in the caliber of your choosing. The back of the case is cut off and a steel insert is in it's place. The steel insert is chambered to take .22 blanks that you buy at the hardware store for use in nail guns or concrete studs. These blanks are produced by Remington and come in four different strengths. I like the "brown" load. The kit also comes with a steel cylinder bored out to the appropriate size for the bullet. You take a buckshot pellet and pound it though this die. The "bullet" is seated in the case with your thumb. A blank is inserted into the rear of the case. I have one in .30-06. Using my standard hunting zero of about 1.5" high at 100 yards using a 150 grain bullet, the Game Getter hits about 1.5" low at 25 yards. The idea behind this device is to carry when you are big game hunting and allowing you to also have a small game load out of the same rifle. I also like mine as a cheap training tool for my big game rifle.

[Scout.308]

Thirties-

Sorry. but I can't seem to put my hands on my copy right now. I'll try again as soon as I can make the time.

Until then, please consider checking the NRA websight. It's a big paperback book (something like 8x10) and I believe it's titled "Reloading" or "Modern Reloading". Something like that. It's pretty distinctive.

Sorry. I'll try later. Good luck.

[Thirties]

Not to worry, I found it on the NRA webstore.

Thanks.

[444]

What ever you do, don't allow the name of this book to get out in the open. :D

I am assuming that you are talking about "NRA Guide to Reloading" ?

[Clark]

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIE7.html

Norm revised the article on ultra light loads and did not include the info I sent him on super sonic gas and expansion ratio.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=aoeb8c%24bls%241%40grapevine.wam.umd.edu

[jacks308]

No dacron in any of my loads . Once upon a time I would use one fourth of a sheet of toilet tissue to hold the powder back . I then got nervous after reading about ringed chambers and such so I quit the practice . Probably won't hurt but I get good results anyway .

Jack

[Fatelvis]

How about a "quieter"load for a 22 Hornet?

[Clark]

http://alexcartridge.com/order.htm
Alex adapters for the 22 Hornet are only for the Contender.
I don't know why.

[Dark Tranquility]

Hello again, been busy with school the past couple weeks.

Wow! Lots of info guys. Thanks to all. I decided to pick up the 22 inch .44 Mag barrel for my experimentation. Unfortunately it’s 10 inches shorted than the .45 70 barrel which should make it considerably louder plus I’ll be limited to lighter loads. But I feel this would be the safest bet for a quiet load beginner like me plus it was half the price. That thing about the barrel ringing kinda freaked me out too. I would never suspect a little wad of paper in the base of a case would splatter with that much force.

Thanks for the links, very informative. I’m going to pick up the NRA reloading manual and give it a try. I’ll keep you posted.

Dan

[Clark]

I have done alot of work finding quiet loads.

The ones I have found that sound like a sub sonic pellet gun:

1) CB type ammo in a 22 rifle with 24" or longer barrel
2) .457" lead ball over (2) .1" polypropalene cookie cuttered wads and .5 gr Bullseye, all pushed down into the case so far the the powder is compressed. This fired from a 45/70 Handi rifle will go through 1" of wood, but if the ball is not pushed down in the case, the ball bounces off wood. The two load make the same noise.
3) a 32acp cartrige fired from a 91/30 with 29" barrel using an Alex adapter. .8 gr Bullseye, .315" lead ball, and 2 layers of .1" polypropylene in a 32acp cartridge OAL=.7". This fired is with an adapter in a full length 91/30 7.62x54R barrel.
4) a sub sonic .177 cal pellet gun

The reason the lead ball must be pushed down on the powder is to get the pressure up. The noise increases to the amount of powder divided by the volume of the chamber plus barrel. That increase is not linear. The threshold of muzzle pressure that can make a supersonic gas ball is where the load must stay below. That is why the 18" 22 rifle barrels seem 100 times as loud as a 24" barrel with CB ammo. This goal of small powder, long barrel, and short seating depth may be thought of as increasing the expansion ratio.

You understand compression ratio in your car engine, right?

http://alexcartridge.com/

[Clark]

I was surprised this guy got the idea passed the BATF.

http://www.quietgun.com/about-main.html

When Norm revised the FAQ for rec.guns on lite loads, he did not include the material I sent him on expansion ratio.

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIE7.html