I might have been to harsh on a local kid..


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GregGry
July 16, 2005, 11:25 PM
Well earlier today, I was working on my lawn, and unknown to me, a kid from a couple houses down was walking up behind me. I was putting some garbage into my garbage can, when I felt something poke me in the back. I turned right around, and half way in my rotation I heard a somewhat loud bang noise. I had no clue as to what was going on, I thought for a second that someone shot a firework at me. As I finished my rotation, it turned out it was the kid from a couple houses down. As I noticed he had a cap gun, he said "your dead" and laughed.

At that point I thought it was no laughing matter, and I practically ripped the cap gun from his hand. I pretty much yelled at him with a few obscenities, telling him that he better not do that, because he could get killed. I told him if he wants his gun back, to send his parents to my house, and I will give it
to them. Well he ran off, and I noticed that he had friends hiding in the bushes not to far away, all with cap guns. I feel I might have over reacted to the situation, but when I think about it, I probably did him a favor. Since his parents obviously didn't tell him that he shouldn't point that thing at people, especially people he doesn't know, I probably taught him that.. I only know the kids first name, I am pretty much a stranger to him. Its a good thing he did that to me, and not some person who might have been packing....

I think his buddies might have pushed him to do it, I know it takes balls to do something like that to a guy that is huge like me. Also, I noticed about an hour after the incident, his friends were shooting their cap guns at passing cars and people, while saying stuff like "your dead" "i just shot that guy, I win" and all sorts of other stuff. All of them were around 7 to 10 years old. I remember when I was that young I had a cap gun, but I read the instructions that came with it, and since it said don't point it at people I didn't. I guess thoes kids might not be able to read or something :rolleyes:. Anyways sorry for the rant, I hope I did the right thing. -Greg

EDIT: Parents have yet to show up for the cap gun..... I figure he wont tell them, he is probably terrified of me now :what: :D

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Dionysusigma
July 16, 2005, 11:38 PM
Parents have yet to show up for the cap gun..... I figure he wont tell them, he is probably terrified of me now :what: :D
Probably. :p

Peer pressure is a tough thing to get over, especially when you're 10. No comment on some (many) of the things I got talked into doing. "Hey--bet you can't hit that hornet's nest with a bottle rocket..." "Oh yeah? I bet I can hit it with three!" Pain and a long run inside ensues. :o :banghead:

Yelling at him and forcibly taking away the toy, in my opinion, isn't what I think I'd do. I might've asked to see it, and then not given it back, followed by an explanation of why. 'Course, this has never happened to me, so I don't know for sure. :uhoh:

I wonder how a S&W 317 loaded with blanks compares to a cap gun. :eek: 'Specially if you blocked off the barrel and painted the tip orange... that might teach the lesson :D (probably not legally, tho).

Standing Wolf
July 16, 2005, 11:42 PM
I hope I did the right thing.

On the whole, yes, I'd say you did. Obscenities probably weren't called for, although they may well have emphasized your anger. You gave the kid a sorely needed lesson in not pointing guns at people. That used to be considered important, and still should be.

CentralTexas
July 16, 2005, 11:50 PM
in your front yard would be harsh. Actually it would probably prevent any other problems ever....
:D
CT

GregGry
July 16, 2005, 11:51 PM
Thanks for the replies.. I do feel bad about the language I used, I didn't mean to. They just came out, I couldn't think of any better words to use. It didn't hit me that he was a kid, since I am used to being around other adults.

Hey--bet you can't hit that hornet's nest with a bottle rocket..." Yeah same thing here, except I used a NERF bow and arrow... Only one sting, not the smartest thing I ever did. I was right underneath it, shooting up :what:...

rhubarb
July 16, 2005, 11:52 PM
I can't fault your actions. The undisciplined untrained child was wrong and is being punished. Don't know if I would go as far in today's litigious society, but I know my old man would have dragged him by the ear to his parents' doorstep and demanded that they whip his backside. :D

On responding to unruly children (via Drudge):
http://www.wftv.com/news/4729041/detail.html
A 12-year-old boy who was firing bottle rockets at cars was chased into traffic Friday by an angry driver and killed by another car, authorities said.

The driver and his passenger, both 22, were arrested for investigation of manslaughter, the Washington State Patrol said.

Ghost Walker
July 16, 2005, 11:56 PM
:) It's just a thought, but, you might want to return that cap pistol to his parents with a brief explanation. (Better that they hear about it from you than the other way around!) ;)

hso
July 16, 2005, 11:56 PM
You reacted out of fear and anger so I think that it's understandable that a little loss of control could occur.

I think that you should take the gun to the parents and have a talk with them about what happened. In "the old days" kids playing with cap guns wouldn't have been considered incipient suicidal behavior, but in "the old days" a kid would never have snuck up to contact on an adult they didn't know and do what this misguided youngster did. Sorting out safe play from unsafe play is what's needed now.

dolanp
July 17, 2005, 12:17 AM
I agree that you should talk to the parents. Let them know what he did and that you don't think he should be doing that kind of thing because it's dangerous and irresponsible. Just be polite about it.

The kid may not tell them what happened but if he does remember that kids will lie to their parents when they want to avoid trouble. He could make you out to be the terrible bad guy.

MICHAEL T
July 17, 2005, 12:31 AM
Tell me how are kids suppose to play Cowboys or Cops and robbers or army and have the shoot outs and every thing and not point guns at each other Their cap guns This is going a little far. Real guns yes teach them thr rules Cap guns let them play. I grew up and many other guys playing with our cap pistols and we didn't turn in killers.or for get the safety rules with a real gun If you jump my kid like that we would be having a talk. :uhoh:

iiibdsiil
July 17, 2005, 12:44 AM
I agree with Michael T. The whole point is they are a toy. I understand firearm safety, but they aren't firearms. The kids probably dared him to do it, and he did. I think most people would have played along with it, at least that's what I woulda done. Then, possibly explain to him that he is lucky that I am a cool guy, but I wouldn't recommend doing that to other people. I think most people seeing 10 year old kids with guns automatically would assume they are cap guns, but who knows in this society. I know I would think they were bb guns, and be pissed these kids were aiming them at my car, but I love my car almost as much as I love my girlfriend, so you better believe I am paranoid.

GregGry
July 17, 2005, 12:46 AM
I agree that you should talk to the parents. Let them know what he did and that you don't think he should be doing that kind of thing because it's dangerous and irresponsible. Just be polite about it. Yeah you are right, I will go over there tomorrow moring. I hope that the kid hasn't spead to much bad information about me, hopefully the parents will listen.

Tell me how are kids suppose to play Cowboys or Cops and robbers or army and have the shoot outs and every thing and not point guns at each other Their cap guns This is going a little far. Real guns yes teach them thr rules Cap guns let them play. I grew up and many other guys playing with our cap pistols and we didn't turn in killers.or for get the safety rules with a real gun If you jump my kid like that we would be having a talk

I understand its hard to play "cops and robbers" without shooting at each other, thats not my issue. The kids were pointing and shooting their cap guns at people walking down the street, at cars, and the language they were using made it seem like they were playing "kill the bystanders". I really didn't have to big of an issue with that, they are kids. Also as far as me jumping your kid, if you had read what I said, the kid stuck the cap gun to my back, pulled the trigger, said I was dead and laughed. I don't think he knew exactly what he was doing, but its not like I went to him, took his cap gun for no reason. I will be going to his house tomorrow, and giving his gun back to his parents, and let them decide on what to do with it. I have no problem with him having it, but he has got to be smart about things.

I agree with Michael T. The whole point is they are a toy. I understand firearm safety, but they aren't firearms. The kids probably dared him to do it, and he did. I think most people would have played along with it, at least that's what I woulda done. Then, possibly explain to him that he is lucky that I am a cool guy, but I wouldn't recommend doing that to other people. I think most people seeing 10 year old kids with guns automatically would assume they are cap guns, but who knows in this society. I know I would think they were bb guns, and be pissed these kids were aiming them at my car, but I love my car almost as much as I love my girlfriend, so you better believe I am paranoid.

If I had known what he was going to do, and that he was behind me, I would have played along with it. I don't know about you, but I am not used to having things shoved onto my back, and a loud popping noise that goes with it. I didn't think it was a gun, my first reaction was that it was fireworks that the kids in the area play with all the time.

garyk/nm
July 17, 2005, 12:54 AM
And Thus Are Legends Born.
You reacted in the moment, and I can't fault you for that, but you may have started something you will come to wish you hadn't.
Might as well start practicing now; repeat after me: Hey, you kids, get off of my lawn! :neener:

MikeIsaj
July 17, 2005, 12:58 AM
So a young boy did something stupid and dangerous and you went a little overboard in disciplining him. I am sure you taught him to be afraid of you and not much else. Imagine a 7 year old that thinks he's playing and suddenly being confronted by a large, angry, screaming, cursing man who takes his cap gun. I bet he doesn't remember anything you said aout gun safety.

Now you have an opportunity to teach him another lesson. Go to his house and with his parents, give him the cap gun and explain yourself rationally. Then say you are sorry for the bad example YOU set by your reaction. When I was six, an adult taught me that you were never too old to admit a mistake and apologise, no matter how young the offended is. He will learn how men act when they have behaved badly.

You can't predict or control how he or his parents will react. All you can control is what you do with the situation.

iiibdsiil
July 17, 2005, 12:59 AM
GregGry, I wasn't trying to say you did anything wrong. We all act differently spur of the moment, and I'm not saying I would be any better. I was more replying to the cap gun situation in general, and not your specific event. I'm sorry if that came out any other way.

hillbilly
July 17, 2005, 01:03 AM
Context is everything.

Had the little so-and-so done this in my yard, he'd be dead right now, because my yard is so far removed from any other yard that anyone who shows up in it with a gun (or anything that looks like a gun) is either invited there, or looking for serious trouble.

Let us know how it turns out when you take the cap pistol back later.

hillbilly

Farnham
July 17, 2005, 01:03 AM
Shoulda shot him... :rolleyes:

I absolutely hate kids, but I guarantee I'm not going to go off on a kid for playing with a cap gun with his buddies. Let the "kid" be over the age of 12, and he's gettin something broke (if he's lucky, it'll be his cap gun), but a little kid might be better handled with an explanation of WHY Mr. Farnham finds loud noises and unexpected contact untenable, and a little lecture on safe firearms handling.

So, yes, you were harsh. Hope you don't get sued.

S/F

Farnham

grampster
July 17, 2005, 01:13 AM
I skipped over most of the posts after a couple after yours. So, my remarks might be tempered by that.

Don't call the parents. Go see the kid. He is, after all, a 7-10 year old kid. He lives in a fantasy world and he stumbled onto a goblin; you. He can't be expected to deal with reality much. Give him a break. This is a time for teaching, not fear. Fear of you, fear of dad and mom, fear of his friends, fear of mockery of his friends..I could go on.

Find the kid, give him back his cap gun and buy him some bubble gum and talk to him like you would like someone to talk to you if you were a kid and an adventure went south. Teach him about firearms and scaring people and doing stupid things and how they may come back to haunt you. I guarantee, he will never forget you and the lesson. What more can a man ask that to have a positive influence on a child.

chris in va
July 17, 2005, 03:10 AM
Bravo. Definitely what I would've done. Annoying twits. If I had done something like that when I was a kid, my bike/skates/toys/priveleges would've evaporated.

Walk over and tell his father what he did to you. Stuff like that needs to be 'nipped in the bud' as my mother always said.

Radagast
July 17, 2005, 04:06 AM
I'd say you overreacted a bit. Go see his folks, give him back his toy and explain to him that it's not OK to trespass. Basically you've just made his world unsafe.

See if you can get his dad to take him to the range with you and let him shoot a couple of full pop cans with a .22. He'd quickly realise that a) you aren't an Orc, b) why you were upset and c) what real guns can do. Firearms safety has to be taught to a willing audience. Fear doesn't help anyone learn.

Ken

mattw
July 17, 2005, 04:12 AM
If it were me I would go apologize to the kid and his parents and explain why I acted the way that I did and let the kid know that you don't mind him playing around your yard, just let you know whats going on first.

+1 for taking the kid shooting! he'll probably become your best friend!

Ryder
July 17, 2005, 09:48 AM
I've explained good gun handling to kids along with why they need to practice it even with toys several times in the past. I have received nothing but acceptance of this message from kids. They flock around me often these days. I enjoy answering their questions. The subject of guns does not come up without reason though and I'd have appreciated the opportunity you were presented (ten was too old for a cap gun in my day).

We used to make light weight wooden swords and run around playing swashbuckler when I was a kid. Nobody ever hit anyone else even though it probably wouldn't have hurt unless you took it in the eye. We had enough sense at the age of 7 to know that toys have limitations. Were kids back then smarter than some adults these days? Do not teach kids there are excuses for bad behavior.

Some super old lady next door hated children when I was growing up. She would insanely yell (some foreign language) at us whenever we were playing in our own yard and try to throw water on us. Always watching out her window. It was dumb, she couldn't even reach us with a garden hose. Our beach ball flew over the fence one day :what: :what: She did what was natural to her. She came flying out of the house and jumped on it thinking it would pop. It didn't. Man, that had to hurt! :neener:

AlaskaErik
July 17, 2005, 10:37 AM
I'd have to question why your situational awareness was so lacking that someone could come up to you and touch you without you having a clue. When I mow I still like to be aware of my surroundings, especially since I wear hearing protection. I think I'd have been madder at myself.

svtruth
July 17, 2005, 10:44 AM
Agree w Radagast.
Kid's ignorance of appropriate gun behavior indicates family has no guns. Taking them to the range is a way of turnig anti/neutrals to pros.
Good Luck

NineseveN
July 17, 2005, 12:53 PM
In some lawns, namely mine, that kid had a good chance of ending up dead. 10-year old kids do kill people these days. And what if that was his dad's gun he found in the closet and was being dared to 'scare that guy over there' with it. I might feel bad for shooting him, but not that bad.

We do not live in a world where you can play cops and robbers by ambushing strangers anymore. The sooner some of you realize this, the better. This sounds harsh, but better him than me. Darwin has a funny way of working things out like that. If the kid was lucky enough for me to see it was indeed a cap gun, I would have done something similar to the OP, and marched right down to the parents house and gave them an earful.

Pointing cap guns at your friends is fine if they're playing with you, strangers should be off-limits. How many cops have shot kids with toy guns? Exactly.

Fred Fuller
July 17, 2005, 01:32 PM
Umm hmmm.

So if he HAS talked to his parents, what might he have said to them?? Thought about that yet?

DO NOT talk to this kid again without talking to the parents first. Call them soon. Set up a visit. Give them back the toy regardless. Explain the 'what if's' to the 'rents, in case they are as stupid as many are- pull a couple of relevant stories off the internet and print them to take along for the occasion. Apologize for anything you think you need to apologize for, and let it go. Hope nothing else comes of it.

Read this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=145307&highlight=sex+offender

And be careful how you deal with OPK (other peoples' kids) from here on out...

lpl/nc

Missashot
July 18, 2005, 10:14 AM
I don't think you overreacted too much. Maybe less the "Sunday school" words. But given the situation I would probably do the same. I would however, go see the parents, tell them what happened and why you took the cap gun. Then if is something you would want to do, maybe take not only the kid, but perhaps the whole family to the range. (sounds as if they don't know the rules of gun safety. Maybe an indication of no guns in the household.)
I don't know about todays kids. When I was 7-10 years old, I used to shoot my dad's 30-06, could safely clean any gun in the house and also had my own .410 shotgun. Dad owned over 75 guns at any given time. We never owned a gun safe. My brother and I were taught to not mess with the guns unless given permission to do so. Ahhh the good old days.... :neener:

chopinbloc
July 18, 2005, 11:03 AM
over-reacted? probably not much, if any. i do agree that you shouldn't let people sneak up on you, though i understand no one is perfect. let us know how the talk with the parents went.

Nickotym
July 18, 2005, 11:24 AM
gotta disagree with grampster. In this day and age, you should not talk to a kid without his parents present, except for the initial incident. Anything else is a recipe for disaster with people pointing fingers at everyone for sexual misconduct or molestation.

Brian Williams
July 18, 2005, 11:34 AM
YOU OVERREACTED.
My first question; Where you carrying?
If you were and you let some little kid walk up behind you, shame on you. You were in condition White, oblivious to your surroundings.
If you were not and you let some little kid walk up behind you, little shame on you. You were still in condition White.

Cops and Robbers, Cowboys and Indians is fun, thats why we have so many paintball players.

Go to the kid with his cap gun and give it back and give him some training in firearms safety, ALA Eddie Eagle or something like that.

Werewolf
July 18, 2005, 11:54 AM
You over reacted (way, way, way over reacted) - probably because the kid snuck up on you, scared the crap out of ya and you were embarrased. You're very lucky the kid's DAD didn't come over and whip your @ss! Or worse go down and file assault charges against ya with the local magistrate because that's what you did to that kid as soon as you started in on him.

It was a toy gun and believe it or not kids do know the difference. Firearms safety is irrelevant when we're talking about TOYS assuming the players know the difference! Get over it. At most you should have just made sure he knew the difference between the real thing and a toy. If not then you should have explained the difference to him and sent him home without all the histrionics.

Boys - at least in my day - play with toy guns and other toy weapons. It's who they are and what they do. Unfortunately in the current world of bliss-ninnie antis and the Firearms safety NAZI's that boyhood pass time is becoming less and less common. And so the emasculation of the modern American male continues. Thanks for contributing... :cuss:

Tim3256
July 18, 2005, 11:57 AM
and I practically ripped the cap gun from his hand. I pretty much yelled at him with a few obscenities, telling him that he better not do that, because he could get killed

You are not going to teach a young person control (gun safety) if you yourself cannot maintain control (of your anger). The perceived "threat" was in fact just a kid playing. We all did this as kids (I'll hazard). If you're this easily "threatened", but refuse to acknowledge your own condition white status...may I suggest a good perimeter fence?

NineseveN
July 18, 2005, 12:17 PM
Heh, want to talk about "bliss-ninnies"? Since when, in the real world, is "assault" defined in part as, 'chewing out some stupid kid for coming onto YOUR property and pretending to kill you'? People seem to throw around that word these days, in fact, some the same people that cry that we've gone too "PC" are using the term "assault" rather loosely to mean anything from looking at someone funny to giving someone the finger or calling them a stupid $%#&. I guess it's different when it suits your purposes.

Some facts:
The kid trespassed onto someone else’s private property.
The kid snuck up on a stranger.
The kid stuck a toy gun in the back of a stranger, pulled the trigger and said "you're dead".

Obviously the kid was not taught or didn't learn the rules:
1. Don't go on/use someone else's property without permission.

2. Don't talk to strangers (I am pretty sure this includes sneaking up on them, pointing a toy gun into their back and shooting them, saying "you're dead").

3. Respect adults (elders).

The OP didn't physically hit the child, and he probably didn't react in the BEST way, but I don't think he was completely out of line. That being said, it is true that you have to be careful when talking with other people's kids.


And to those of you that made veiled threats of hypothetical physical violence if this was your kid:

Go ahead, send your unsupervised little rug-rat out in the world with poor home training so he can trespass on someone else's property and act with total disrespect towards adult strangers. It's not the guys fault some people can't train their kids. Supervise your little bastards and keep them off other people's lawns. But don't cry foul when little Johnny pulls that kind of stunt on the wrong person or a cop shoots him cause he's running around pointing cap guns at strangers. If you can't supervise your child, perhaps you shouldn't be breeding then. I mean, to beat someone up because your kid is an ignorant little brat and you're a poor parent is a little extreme don't you think? Just go home and beat your wife for raising the kid and save yourself some time.


'I'm gonna beat you up cause I'm tough and my kid is an ignorant little jerk'. ROFL, priceless.



//Disclaimer// This is directed at no particular or singular individual, it is not an attack on your character or your moral standing. If it causes you concern or anguish, that effect is unintentional. Peace.

grampster
July 18, 2005, 12:37 PM
Err...I guess I'd modify my comment about just speaking to the kid without talking to the parents. I was brought up in the 40's and 50's when it was ok for neighbors to actually talk to kids without worrying about being accused of being a child molester. My original intent still stands, though. sigh......

GregGry
July 18, 2005, 05:59 PM
You over reacted (way, way, way over reacted) - probably because the kid snuck up on you, scared the crap out of ya and you were embarrased. You're very lucky the kid's DAD didn't come over and whip your @ss!

Well the chances of someones father in my area being able to come over an whip my @ss are pretty slim, not to mention they would be stupid for attempting it :uhoh: The kid didn't have any injuries, and if anyone had come over I would have set the story straight.

Well, I went to the kids house, on Sunday, I didn't get an answer at the door, so I left a letter for his parents about what happened, and that they should stop by when they get it. Its Monday now, I have yet to hear from them, I would imagine they might be at work or something along those lines.

My first question; Where you carrying?
Nope, I don't carry when I am doing yard work, or at all when I am out, no ccw in my state :(

If you were not and you let some little kid walk up behind you, little shame on you. You were still in condition White.

Well I was in my fenced in yard, that only has one way in, I was putting stuff in the trash bin, which made it a bit hard to hear what was going on around me. I did hear some footsteps, I just figured it was the neighbor returning the rake he borrowed earlier (I still don't know if it was the kid or not). The trash bins and plastic storage garage make it hard for me to see your average kid, I may be tall, but I can't see a short kid if he is behind something bigger then him. I suppose I could be more alert, but it was my lazy day, I was tired, and I really don't feel that I need to worry about people coming into my fenced in yard.

Also, when I re read my original message, it probably seemed like I flew off the handle with anger. In reality I was upset, but I am not the type of person to get really mad over something. I certainly was mad compared to what I am normally, but I really wasn't as bad as I probably sounded, at least I think lol. When I posted that I was still upset too, which didn't help things.

I think its a great idea to take him out shooting, but there are 3 major problems with that. #1 I really don't know his parents, so some random guy wanting to take their son out shooting is typically not considered ok in my area. #2 I own no long guns, and none of my friends own them (only handguns) and #3 it would take atleast 30 minutes to get to a outdoor range. I am not opposed to the idea, I just don't think it would work to well, not to mention after buying a HK USP, my wallet is on the light side.

jdkelly
July 18, 2005, 06:13 PM
Well, at first I thought you over reacted because the child scared you. I understand that because nobody jumps higher then me when startled.

But after reading nineseven's post, I'm starting to think you should've gunned the kid and his buddies in the bushes too. :rolleyes:


Respectfully,

jkelly

KriegHund
July 18, 2005, 06:17 PM
Greg, speakling from personal experience, terrifying the kid wasnt the best thing to do.

Terrifyed fear= bad
Repsected fear= good (IE telling the parents)

Its always bad to take another persons kid into your hands, lawsuits insue!

Tell the parent about the situation and kindly ask that they encourage a little more safety and common sense than firing a gun at strangers. Also apologize to the kid himself for yelling at him, in the presence of the parents, and let the parents handle it.

Oh yes, and give the cap gun back to the parents.

So you talked to the parents, good. Or at least tryed! Lets hope they arent dumb...arses.

realmswalker
July 18, 2005, 09:58 PM
werewolf you said that kids know the difference between real and fake guns.

I recall about a year or two ago a 5 year old child I believe bringing a gun to school and pointing it at a little girls head in class and killing her. Maybe this child was playing with a cap gun the day before and really couldnt distinguish the difference.

Kids nowadays and kids when we were kids is about as far of a leap as you can get. I hope my point makes sense.

peacefuljeffrey
July 18, 2005, 10:12 PM
Thanks for the replies.. I do feel bad about the language I used, I didn't mean to. They just came out, I couldn't think of any better words to use. It didn't hit me that he was a kid, since I am used to being around other adults.

This is just a cursory thought about what you might consider doing. (Please bear in mind that there's potential for the parents to try to have you charged with doing something to their kid, a la forcibly taking something out of his hand, etc.):

1) Scour the papers and internet for news stories about kids who were killed by either cops (preferably) or homeowners, because the kids had realistic-looking fake guns and they were mistaken for real ones.

2) Bring these and the cap gun to the kid's house, and ask politely to speak with the parents.

3) Explain to them that you have come to return the cap gun that their boy pointed and "fired" at you, and that you confiscated it at the time, after a stern lecture that you would like to explain to the boy with his parents' permission and with them present.

4) Explain that you have concerns for the boy and his friends, who apparently have not been taught that all guns, real or fake, should never be pointed at people (with obvious exceptions for real guns being used in defense). Explain the dangers of having such actions taken the wrong way by people who have the means to do something about it -- or the responsibility to, like cops.

5) Show them the stories about kids like theirs getting killed doing just what theirs was doing. Make this seem personal to them. Make them imagine losing their son to "play" that was misconstrued because the "play" was actually a dangerous flirtation with improper gun handling.

6) Ask them if you can apologize to the boy for yelling at him, and explain to them that you think it will help his understanding if he sees that you are not an ogre, but instead are someone who is concerned about his safety, and that you're not mean and nasty and angry at him as a person.

7) Who knows? Are they open to you taking the boy to the range to fire real guns?

-Jeffrey

peacefuljeffrey
July 18, 2005, 10:20 PM
I agree with Michael T. The whole point is they are a toy. I understand firearm safety, but they aren't firearms.

That's fine, and I agree that kids playing with cap guns and pointing them at each other (and at inanimate objects) is just fine. I did it, and I don't think it was wrong.

What introduces the danger is when kids involve people who are not part of the "game". It's perfectly fine to be doing it with the other kids who are playing. They know what to expect.

And of course, the kids must be clearly and properly taught the infinite difference between it being okay to point a cap-gun at a playmate, and pointing a real gun at anyone at any time.

It's true we don't have to be so rigid that we seem like the schools lately, which will expell a kid and pretend that there is no difference between a chicken finger and a real gun. :rolleyes:


-Jeffrey

Moonclip
July 18, 2005, 10:31 PM
I understand your anger and taking away cap gun from kid but be careful! A gun store by my house had a Taurus 85ch on consignment once. Story behind it was at condo complex guy lived in skateboarding kid was making noise and causing trouble.

Gun owner grabbed skateboard from and told him parents could pick it up. Parents ended up sueing and filing some sort of criminal charge like theft and some other such nonsense. Guy supposedly lost gun rights and had to spend a lot of $ on a lawyer.

Kind of sad todays attitudes though, I rarely see kids with toy guns anymore but maybe kids making a game of shooting each other is not a good idea though. I do not like being around peoples childrens by myself either in this age of child molestation accusations and such.

At the grocery store today I waved and made a funny face to a little girl who was saying hi to me and my sister freaked out and said not to do that, pretty sad huh? She was probably right though.

I try to be understanding with kids though, I hate the noise and trouble the neighborhood kids make sometimes but I don't want to be known as the grumpy old guy down the street, I was a child once too.

NineseveN
July 18, 2005, 10:37 PM
+1 to peacefuljeffrey's last post.

peacefuljeffrey
July 18, 2005, 10:40 PM
When we get enough +1s, do we win something? :D

-Jeffrey

NineseveN
July 18, 2005, 11:17 PM
I think the prize is a hemmoroid donut? I could be wrong though... :evil:

Taurus 66
July 19, 2005, 12:19 AM
At that point I thought it was no laughing matter, and I practically ripped the cap gun from his hand. I pretty much yelled at him with a few obscenities, telling him that he better not do that, because he could get killed.

GregGry, do you think you sometimes have uncontrollable anger issues? If you could pick one gun which you believe best suits your personality, would you choose "loose cannon"? :p But serious ... Brian Williams and Werewolf probably have the right answer when they say you overreacted. So long as you get out of this without the parents pursuing the matter in an attempt to villify you or try suing for psychological trauma, or some other crazy made up thing, you, the boy, and his buddies will walk away from this with valuable lessons learned.

mattw
July 19, 2005, 12:33 AM
Never fight the enemy on his own terms! Buy yourself a cap gun and plan a counter-attack!

Hawkmoon
July 19, 2005, 01:19 AM
I don't think you over-reacted, but I do think you're likely to be neighbors with him ... and his parents ... for awhile. If I may offer a suggestion, I think now that things have (hopefully) chilled a bit, you could heal the breach by apologizing to him for blowing up.

However ... make it a positive experience all around. Call his parents, tell THEM there's something you wish to discuss with them and their son, offer to take them to lunch at Mickey D's, and then sit them down and have a chat. Apologize to the kid for blowing your stack, but explain to him that it just isn't safe today to be sneaking up behind people and poking a toy gun in their back. Sure, cops & robbers or cowboys & Indians with his pals is okay, because all the players know what the game is. But explain to him that when he sneaks up on an adult who isn't clued into the game, bad things could easily happen. Explain to him that you were upset because you realized how close you came to seriously injuring him, thinking you were under attack, and let him know that if he had been injured you would feel very badly about it.

Then make a show of giving him back his "piece."

Relayer
July 19, 2005, 01:46 AM
jmho, you over-reacted. The kid is just a kid. You, however, are an adult. You lost control (grabbing the toy gun and yelling/cursing) because the kid got the drop on you. You were startled and embarrassed (again, all jmho).

If you really want to help this kid, find a way to get in front of his dad, and apologize for losing control with his kid. You need to apoplogize for that. Was the kid wrong? Yeah, sure, but he is a kid. They do stuff like that. You can help correct this by doing the required apology (for not handling yourself like the adult that you are), then explaining (not justifying) why you reacted like you did. Fess up. You let the kid startle you, and in front of his friends, and you got pissed. Then ask the parents to understand that you are primarily concerned about the safety of the kid (not from you, but in general), and worried that his actions (sneaking up on an adult and hollering BANG!) might not be the best thing for him to do.

You've got the kid scared to death of you, most likely. If you are truly concerned about the kid, you need to get the parents to understand that the kid needs some parenting regarding his actions.

peacefuljeffrey
July 19, 2005, 02:12 AM
And to those of you that made veiled threats of hypothetical physical violence if this was your kid:

Go ahead, send your unsupervised little rug-rat out in the world with poor home training so he can trespass on someone else's property and act with total disrespect towards adult strangers. It's not the guys fault some people can't train their kids. Supervise your little bastards and keep them off other people's lawns. But don't cry foul when little Johnny pulls that kind of stunt on the wrong person or a cop shoots him cause he's running around pointing cap guns at strangers. If you can't supervise your child, perhaps you shouldn't be breeding then. I mean, to beat someone up because your kid is an ignorant little brat and you're a poor parent is a little extreme don't you think? Just go home and beat your wife for raising the kid and save yourself some time.


'I'm gonna beat you up cause I'm tough and my kid is an ignorant little jerk'. ROFL, priceless.

Priceless describes this summation in your post, NineseveN. :) I like it!

-Jeffrey

NineseveN
July 19, 2005, 02:20 AM
Yeah, I know I may be coming off harsh, but if, like many of us I assume may have...if the OP had instinctively turned and drew his gun, he'd be in some trouble. If he shot, he'd be in a ton of trouble. All over a kid whose parents didn't teach him what not to do. It's hard to fault the child, he probably doesn't know any better. But ask yourselves this, if you turned and what the kid had "looked" like a real firearm, would you shoot instinctively or not? Not a situation I want to be in.

How many stories do we see of this same thing happening with police officers in the past? Can you blame them? They want to go home to their families like everyone else, do you hesitate? Do you accept that we live in a country where we've had 10-year olds tried as adults for murder, where stupid parents don't secure their firearms and kids kill themselves or their friends by playing them...it's not a cool situation. Had I just found out I nearly shot and killed a child with a cap gun, I might be shaken up enough to act exactly like the OP did. Granted, he didn't have a firearm, but I am sure the thought process he went through is similar.

Had I witnessed the kids playing with cap guns earlier that day or recently, I might look at this differently. Though I would hope that no one could get the drop on me like that, especially not some kid. Who knows, we all have rough days...

cracked butt
July 19, 2005, 03:40 AM
To try to stay on the High Road, I won't say much except that a lot of people here sound like they have the same cowardly busibody attitude of the average soccer mom. People need to grow up and realize that kids having harmless fun is nothing more than kids having harmless fun.

Between this thread and
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=147530
I'm starting to think that many of the chest thumping ninjas on this board are not only terrified of children but need to get a life.

Werewolf
July 19, 2005, 11:38 AM
People need to grow up and realize that kids having harmless fun is nothing more than kids having harmless fun.

^^^^^
+1

NineseveN
July 19, 2005, 11:59 AM
That's a good point Cracked Butt, just keep them off my lawn and away from my loved ones and my property. Let them shoot bottle rockets at your house or something. Thanks for your understanding.

dolanp
July 19, 2005, 12:07 PM
Yeah 'boys will be boys', right? How many unfit parents have used that one to excuse the little hellions they've raised with no sense of right and wrong?

If they want to shoot rockets and cap guns at each other, they can do it in their own house.

Werewolf
July 19, 2005, 01:33 PM
^^^
Geeez Louise!

What happens when some kid accidentally throws a ball into you guys' back yards.

Oh - wait. I know...
You put on your ninja suits, grab your kitanas, strap on a 1911 and then go outside, hide in the shadows and lop their heads off when they violate the sanctity of your holy domains! Yeah that's it. That's the ticket. :neener:

NineseveN
July 19, 2005, 02:09 PM
Geeez Louise!

What happens when some kid accidentally throws a ball into you guys' back yards.p

I kindly grab the ball for them, hand it back, and ask them if they play ball in school or on any teams, generally shoot the breeze if I'm not terribly busy.

If a kid purposely threw a ball at my home, then it's a different story. Time to let the police handle the little vandals if talking to the parents first does not help. And I'd be confiscating the ball until I spoke with the parents.

In this story, no one accidentally threw a cap-gun wielding kid into this guy's yard. The kid willfully trespassed onto private property and did something completely stupid.

The other story was not about some kids' bottle rocket going astray and accidentally screaming off onto the roadway either. You cannot equate the two, and even in trying to do so, you are not making your point very well anyway.

Are you a liberal by any chance? Because it would explain why you seem to hold the opinion that the little booger-eaters should be able to do as they please, running amok in the nieghborhood, trespassing, shooting bottle rockets at people and such without reprimand, because, after all 'they're just being kids'. If parents cannot accept the reponsibility to raise their children right, to stay out of people's property and not vandalize or be a punk, then when he comes into my property, they've just made it my problem. One that will be dealt with, either by the parents themselves after a nice long talk, or by the police in juvy hall if need be.

But maybe I am reading you wrong?

Oh - wait. I know...
You put on your ninja suits, grab your kitanas, strap on a 1911 and then go outside, hide in the shadows and lop their heads off when they violate the sanctity of your holy domains! Yeah that's it. That's the ticket


Now no need to be an idiot. I'm a mall ninja because I don't want your kids on my property? How about I let my dogs crap in your yard then? I didn't nail your wife, I am not raising your kids.

NineseveN
July 19, 2005, 03:07 PM
in hindsight, my post might have come off a little harsh. I stand by the way I feel, but I'm not sure the "idiot" comment was warranted. I apologize, but I don't like people insinuating that I am some stupid mall-ninja-wannabe commando because I prefer to decide who can do what and when on my own property.

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