Reality vs Rambo!


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Wildalaska
January 1, 2003, 02:26 AM
OK get ready to flame away...

What is it about men and guns that brings out the Rambo?
Time and time again I read about and listen to debates about how you need "snag free sights in case you have to clear a malfunction one handed", or must have a "back up" weapon, or whats the best way to carry "three" extra mags, what rounds will "punch through" car doors,, and so on ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Now I am not talking about practical training topics...rather I am talking about a mindset of aggression...the Rambo syndrome...the idea that one NEEDS to have all this training, extra mags, the hottest rounds, back up guns so you can go out and FIGHT the goblins for truth, justice and the American way....

Lets look at the practicalities...

In areas where CCW is allowed and prevelant, armed attacks by strangers on the street should be lower than in the urban gun denial venues where quite frankly its dog eat dog. Look at it further, even POLICE shootings are one or two rounds, so your chance of being the victim of a mass attack of armed savages and needing to do tactical reload in your CCW jurisdiction are statistically low...

Further...and mnost importantly...your weapon, under most laws(and please correct me if your law is different), is a DEFENSIVE weapon that is only to be used to halt or prevent the use of DEADLY physical force upon you IF you are unable to retreat...you cant shoot a person who punches you in the nose!

Nor can you generally play hero under the law...sure there are exceptions...for example you can use deadly physical force against another to prevent an arson for example..or to prevetn the use of deadly physical force against another..but you better be DARN sure that you are right or you are gonna be cooling your heels in the police hotel for quite some time...

Face it..you are driving down the street, here the alarm going off, and see a guy with an AK running out of a bank...are you gonna whip your car after him, throw open the door, draw your custom carry 45 and start blasting away with him....tactical reloads and all...

I think not and you are a dangerous fool if you do...rather you should do what a normal, reasonable person will do...get on that cell phone and call 911..let those who are paid to get shot at get shot at...

What is far more likely is that someone jumps at you with a knife, you cant get away, and you put one up his schnoz...you dont need a 10mm with three extra mags to do that do you...

Or some jerk off jumps into your car, threatens you with an ice pic...gonna be tough drawing that full size 1911 from an IWB isnt it...

In both scenarios you are better off shoving a 32 in your pocket than your fancy carry gun...easier to get at..and looks far less "looking for trouble" than the custom carry peice..

So guys, lets not stop talking about our favorite things...but lets temper it with a bit of reality..ya get a newbie asking "gee whats best to carry" maybe we can interject a little common sense into all of this..

And I have more than one custom carry peice too.....

:neener:

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Blackhawk
January 1, 2003, 02:33 AM
We're not very far apart on this, so no flames from this quarter! :D

dave
January 1, 2003, 02:46 AM
wild,

I see your point, and in some cases you are correct. There are some folks out there (as talked about in another thread) that just can't wait for something to happen, only to save the day. But I truely think they are in the minority.

I believe most of us simply fall into that trap of wanting to be prepaired for anything. We can't, of course, but we try. I think that most of us just want to be able to defend ourselves and our families. We tend to think things out, sometimes a little to far.

I'm sure we've all heard of that poor guy somewhere, somewhen, who lost because his mag failed, gun jammed, ran out of ammo, didn't have a knife, didn't wear body armour, didn't have a flashlight, didn't have a cell phone, didn't know how to shoot, and a hundred other reasons. Try as we might, we can't be prepaired for everything. And we don't know which thing we may need most. We just want those we love, including ourselves to make it out, of anything that happens, alive.

I think that if someone feels safer by carring an extra mag, a spare gun, or by having training, then they should do so. These things, in and of themselves, don't cause anybody harm. It's one's ACTIONS that may leave something to be desired.

Triad
January 1, 2003, 02:47 AM
I could proably come up with answers for your questions, and debate the topic, but your sig says it all.

P-35/53
January 1, 2003, 03:19 AM
I have had people laugh when I tell them I always carry a .380 or a 32 . - they always say a mouse gun hah. When I ask what they carry I have heard I keep a Beretta 92 in the truck or I have Goverment Model at home or a 44 Magnum in the trunk. The difference is I am always armed they just have the comfort of thinking they are.:)

fivepaknh
January 1, 2003, 03:44 AM
I tend to agree with you. I don't feel the need to buy a Batman utility belt that holds three spare mags, a BUG, flashlight, pepper spray, and whatever else a good survivalist needs. I do carry the biggest caliber that my mode of dress allows, because like you said, in most defensive situation, only a few rounds are fire. If it ever comes to pulling the trigger I want the biggest caliber available, because shot placement may be difficult while I'm soiling my pants.
To need all the extra gear I look at the chain of events that would have to occur in order to use that gear.
1. I'd have to be in a life or death situation. I live in an area that it's less likely to happen than it is to some of our other members.
2. If it happens, and it could and that's why I carry, my gun/ammo/mag would have to fail at the particular moment for me to need extra gear. After 25 years of shooting, I don't think I've had a weapon fail to go bang on the first 2 or 3 shots.

If both 1 and 2 occur, then God is try to tell me something. It's my time. I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just looking at the odds. I could win Power Ball too. :rolleyes:

sm
January 1, 2003, 04:16 AM
Like Blackhawk, I too am not far away from your post.

We do have some members with real life experiences, some are in harms way , some face harms way daily in their jobs. We also have those that teach and train. We all have had Life Experiences . Regardless of Gender I learn from what this forum was created for: Share experience, strength and hope. Educate, pass on RKBA, etc. I listen, I learn, I share.

We may have Rambo's appear, just like trolls...they don't stay long,or are ignored.

IMO

Nosferatu
January 1, 2003, 05:32 AM
Wild, I agree with you 100%. There are a lot of Tactical Teds out there that think the way you described. I carry a gun with me as an absolute last resort should my life or someone's life is in immediate danger.

Even when a knife-wheeling(sp?) moron in a mall attacked me out of nowhere, it wasn't my gun that got the first nod, it was my Jujitsu training as a kid/teenager that took over. I'm more confident that my mind will get me out of trouble than my gun.

coati
January 1, 2003, 05:47 AM
Pretty wise advice, Wildalaska.

JPM70535
January 1, 2003, 05:53 AM
Thank you for injecting the thoughts that have been running through my mind while reading some of the posts about all the tactical gear carried by some of our members. I felt like I was seriously underarmed with just 8 rounds of 45 ACP and my little folding knife. Glad to hear I am not alone in believing that if it takes more than 2-3 rounds to stop a threat, more reloads are going to be too little too late.

Drjones
January 1, 2003, 06:13 AM
In areas where CCW is allowed and prevelant, armed attacks by strangers on the street should be lower than in the urban gun denial venues where quite frankly its dog eat dog

Great post overall, but I must say: did you ever think that "in areas where CCW is prevalent" that the REASON that "armed attacks by strangers" ARE lower that elsewhere is because of all the "tactical teds" out there?

:neener:

:ar15:

shu
January 1, 2003, 08:15 AM
Interesting topic.
I usually have a G-26 on person, something larger in the backpack, a 357mag lever gun and 2 hundred rounds of assorted ammunition in the truck.
Goes back to the time I only had two pistols, our house (200 yards from border with Mexico) was getting broken into regularly, I was travelling alot, and the most secure place for the firearms was right next to me. Doing service calls in the local area, I might find myself in the vicinity of the range with 45 minutes to spare, thus the extra hundred rounds of 9mm under the seat.
Leaving aside the subject of quantity; once accepting the principle of individual responsibility for one's own security, and being a creature of habit, I find it simpler to have a pistol on the hip at all times rather than sometimes yes and sometimes not.

2dogs
January 1, 2003, 09:21 AM
Face it..you are driving down the street, here the alarm going off, and see a guy with an AK running out of a bank...are you gonna whip your car after him, throw open the door, draw your custom carry 45 and start blasting away with him....tactical reloads and all...

This happened to me the other day and, dang, if I didn't miss.:what:

Preacherman
January 1, 2003, 09:34 AM
2dogs... :D :D :D

This subject is well illustrated in this thread (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=139801) on TFL. Lots of Rambo-ites chipping in, with lots of more sensible types answering. You'll have to decide for yourself where I fit in! (Rev. Rambo??? :what: )

El Tejon
January 1, 2003, 09:44 AM
Wild,

Re: CCW, if you carry, you don't need to:

Maybe. You've never been to Gary, Indiana I gather.:D But you don't carry to look for trouble, unless you write for a gun rag or are a 15 year old on the Errornet. You carry and train so you do not fight. You never read about the kung fu master getting into a fight in a bar on Saturday night.

The "all you need" argument may or may not work. "All you need" is a rape whistle. Maybe. People should be aware of the horrific consequences of relying on this `tude and shoving a .38 in their pocket.

The reality, of course, is that people, not guns, fight. The key is education. There are ways to draw a full-sized 1911 when seated and even with the off hand. We practice this because we do not know what the fight will look like or where it will come from. If I did know, I would not be there.

Maybe 9 out of 10 times possession alone will suffice. We train to eliminate that 1. The more we train, the more confidence we manifest. The more confidence we possess, the less we look like a target to a potential attacker. The more we train, the less we know and the more we know can go wrong. The more we train, the less likely we are to fight.

Knowing these things you describe does not make you an aggressive wannabe mall ninja. It shows that you are aware of are the terrible things that can happen in a fight and will avoid a fight as a result. Knoweledge is power; no pride in ignorance, etc, et al, inter alia.

Soap
January 1, 2003, 10:25 AM
El Tejon pretty much said it all.

Apple a Day
January 1, 2003, 10:36 AM
Two points:
Don't know about your neck of the woods but around here cops tend to darn near empty their magazines when they are in a shooting situation. They shoot a lot more than 1 or 2 rounds. Some of them shoot more than that before their gun clears their holster!:what:
As for "playing Rambo" , let me explain something about men- we love to mess with all things mechanical. If it's a machine then it can always be a little bit smoother/faster/bigger/whatever... It's the same reason we put compasses on the dashboards of our cars when the roadsigns tell us which way we are headed. It's the same reason women read Better Homes and Gardens. Okay, so it's silly and chances are we will never the little attachments, gizmos and doodads, but allow us our little fantasies. ;)

12-34hom
January 1, 2003, 10:48 AM
I wonder if Wildalaska carries insurance on his home or car or life?

CCW and the training that goes with it are a form of life iinsurance. Hopefully i will never have the need to use it, but if i do i want FULL coverage.

El Tejon also makes some excellent points on his post.

Happy New Year...:)

12-34hom

Harold Mayo
January 1, 2003, 10:54 AM
KSFree...oops, El Tejon said it right. You train and prepare for the UNlikelihoods, not what is likely.

When I buy an insurance policy, I spend quite a bit of time reading about my options and researching the company from which I'm buying it. I am ultra-careful in making sure the premiums are paid and all paperwork is properly filled out. When they notify me of something, I read it in context with the rest of the policy and don't just file it away. I have NEVER used any major medical coverage that I carry, have never been in an automobile accident in my adult life and, of course, have not used my life insurance policy. I do these things not because I expect to have to use the policies that I carry, but because I or my family MIGHT have to use them.

If I want to conduct my life in accordance with LIKELIHOODS, then I wouldn't carry any insurance whatsoever.

The same applies to my firearms collection and training. I will not likely EVER get in an armed confrontation, but I want to be prepared if I do. I must admit that it is fun for me, too, but that's icing on the cake. After all, how many people can say that their hobby is also something that can save their life or the lives of of their family?

On a tangent, do the training and firearms matter? Maybe, maybe not. As an armed citizen against the goblins, you are always on the defensive and that is a poor starting point. One guy with a single-shot .22 derringer or a knife who broke into my house when I wasn't there and surprised me when I came home could easily do me in, despite all of my fancy guns and training. That's reality. But should I just resign myself to playing the odds? No. That is the victim's mentality and I refuse to take that mindset if, for no other reason, than NOT wanting to be a victim.

PATH
January 1, 2003, 11:29 AM
Reality is avoiding trouble by staying aware. If you are in trouble run away! I know that if I were in a life and death situation I would probably stain my pants. I am certainly no Rambo and have no wish to be. The object is to remove ones self and or loved ones from danger as quickly as possible.

My best defense is the psycho look that I have on my face when in say a mall. My wife gets annoyed but you have to look like you are not a person to be trifled with. Being 6'6'' and 315 lbs does not hurt either.

No! I am no Rambo. I am just a guy looking to avoid problems and if encountered get away ffrom them as quickly as possible.

Oh! I carry a little Mod 36 J-frame with a speed loader in my pocket. Works for me.

Bob A
January 1, 2003, 11:52 AM
KSFree...oops, El Tejon said it right. You train and prepare for the UNlikelihoods, not what is likely.

Just like you carry car insurance which covers only what is unlikely to happen to your car, right? :rolleyes:

There is no way to prepare for an armed attacker. If somebody wants to ambush you, there is little you can do beside avoiding it. What you should train for, IMO, is to be comfortable and proficient with a gun, when it's OK to fire (what LE calls shoot/don't shoot drills) and how to avoid trouble in the first place. The best way to survive a gunfight is by not getting into one.

Besides, the original post never mentioned not "training" or being prepared, Wildalaska just takes the position that some guys have a Tackleberry mentality and generally gravitate toward overkill. Are you going to get involved in a shootout where you need more than the 11 rounds in your weapon? You might, but what are the odds? I know it's harder to hit a moving target under combat conditions, but where did the 11 rounds go? Are you trying to kill somebody or stop an attack? Most criminals are not that dedicated anyway.

You want to "train" for an event that is so unlikely to happen that won't happen to but a few people in a lifetime, fine. But most of us have lives.

2dogs
January 1, 2003, 12:16 PM
My best defense is the psycho look that I have on my face when in say a mall. My wife gets annoyed but you have to look like you are not a person to be trifled with. Being 6'6'' and 315 lbs does not hurt either.

PATH

And you need a gun why?:D :D :D

I'm a scrawny 160 lb 6'. Got the psycho look down though.:cuss:

Cal4D4
January 1, 2003, 12:20 PM
Closest thing to a Rambo type scene in this area would be the riots that happen after controversial court cases and major sporting events - and maybe earthquakes. Hand to hand combat with masses of goblins because you couldn't find low gear in your 18 wheeler, driving back the hordes of vandals and thugs in Koreatown, maybe a late night bus rider facing gang action at a transfer stop. All of these things are reality, some of them went quite badly. I agree that fantasy gets in the way of reality, but everyone has his own perception of what SHTF scenario they should prep for. Here in the L.A. area the traveller away from his personal property is pretty much without legal armed defense except for edged weapons. Revise tactics accordingly.:impaled:

armabill
January 1, 2003, 12:21 PM
All have good and excellent posts!

cordex
January 1, 2003, 12:28 PM
There is no way to prepare for an armed attacker.
Untrue.
Oh, if you think that all you need to do to be well defended is to tuck a gun in your pocket and you'll be prepared for anything, then you likely not be able to defend yourself against an armed attacker.
But you claim that there is no way to prepare for that situation, and that is simply false.
If somebody wants to ambush you, there is little you can do beside avoiding it.
There is a big difference between six armed men ambushing you, and preparing for a single armed attacker (say, armed with a knife).
Though I would agree, if you know in advance where you're going to be attacked don't be there. But that's just common sense.
What you should train for, IMO, is to be comfortable and proficient with a gun, when it's OK to fire (what LE calls shoot/don't shoot drills) and how to avoid trouble in the first place. The best way to survive a gunfight is by not getting into one.
Aye. Works for me.
Are you going to get involved in a shootout where you need more than the 11 rounds in your weapon? You might, but what are the odds?
Are you going to get involved in any situation where you need a gun? You might, but what are the odds? Why carry a gun at all?
I know it's harder to hit a moving target under combat conditions, but where did the 11 rounds go? Are you trying to kill somebody or stop an attack? Most criminals are not that dedicated anyway.
Never Been There or Done That, but I fail to see why carrying 15 rounds in a gun is all that more paranoid than carrying 11 ... or 3, since that's all you think would be required for the vast majority of "real" attacks?
And maybe you have the ability to consistantly one-hole them when someone else is charging you with a butcher knife, but I can't fault someone for wanting to carry more than the bare minimum.
(that said, I carry 9 in my main carry piece. secondary holds 5.)
You want to "train" for an event that is so unlikely to happen that won't happen to but a few people in a lifetime, fine.But most of us have lives.
The same could be said about training to carry a gun in the first place, no?

It's all a matter of degree. If you prefer to keep a downloaded P-32 tucked into your pocket and feel prepared for any situations you are likely to find yourself in, more power to you. If you prefer to carry 3 full-capacity handguns with 3 spare mags each about your person "just in case", that doesn't bother me either.

Pendragon
January 1, 2003, 12:46 PM
Not everyone on here is a regular civilian.

Not everyone with ccw lives in a rural area.

Some people really are "targets".

No such thing as too much training or practice.

Use enough gun, have enough bullets.

That said, my ccw will be a J frame and a speedstrip.

Harold Mayo
January 1, 2003, 01:05 PM
There is no way to prepare for an armed attacker.

Victim mentality. "I don't think that I can do anything about it so I won't even try" is not the way I want to live my life. You CAN prepare for an armed attacker, just like you can prepare for any adversary in any situation in life, be it in business, relationships, etc. Reality disproves your statement.



If somebody wants to ambush you, there is little you can do beside avoiding it.

If somebody wants to ambush you, then you CAN'T avoid it. An ambush is, by definition, a surprise. You can avoid places and situations where something like that might be more likely, MAYBE, but not always. A person's work or other circumstances might force them into situations where there IS an elevated risk. Merely living in some areas is sufficient.


What you should train for, IMO, is to be comfortable and proficient with a gun, when it's OK to fire (what LE calls shoot/don't shoot drills) and how to avoid trouble in the first place. The best way to survive a gunfight is by not getting into one.

No argument there, but I don't go hunting for trouble, either. As stated before, I'm more concerned about the UNlikelihoods.


Besides, the original post never mentioned not "training" or being prepared, Wildalaska just takes the position that some guys have a Tackleberry mentality and generally gravitate toward overkill.

The implication is sufficient. Overkill is a matter of opinion.


Are you going to get involved in a shootout where you need more than the 11 rounds in your weapon? You might, but what are the odds?

Exactly the point. If we're wanting to play odds, then we won't even carry a gun or carry insurance. If a guy wants to carry a bunch of spare ammuntion, then that's his choice. I normally carry a Browning hi-power with a regular-capacity magazine...total of 14 rounds in the gun. Am I crazy for this? Rambo, perhaps? Because I don't carry postban magazines? Because I sometimes carry a WHOLE OTHER magazine loaded to full capacity with 13 MORE rounds?


I know it's harder to hit a moving target under combat conditions, but where did the 11 rounds go? Are you trying to kill somebody or stop an attack? Most criminals are not that dedicated anyway.

Trying to stop the attack, of course. Death is a possible (and unfortunate) side-effect. "Most" and, from above "might" are words that imply the possibility and are subjective, anyway. I am unlikely to be involved in an armed incident. If I am involved, I would consider it most likely to be with some meth-head from the area in which I work coming after me because I'm carrying cash from my business...this is an unlikely event but one that I have considered. A friend of mine doing bodyguard work in the former Soviet Union for American business interests is MUCH more likely to be involved in an armed confrontation. If he participates in discussions on this forum about bullet-proof vests and which type of ammunition happens to penetrate glass best, is he a "Rambo"? Are Russian organized crime enforcers that dedicated?


You want to "train" for an event that is so unlikely to happen that won't happen to but a few people in a lifetime, fine.

Violent crime happens more often than you imply. Individual circumstances will dictate. What people wish to do as a hobby or a profession and what they discuss on a board dedicated to it in their own time and at their own discretion should not be criticized by a visitor to that board.

But most of us have lives

Hmm? Implying that I do not? That I am some sort of gun-training fanatic? I manage a mine, play with my two daughters, carry on a relationship with my wife, work in the yard, just finished a master's degree at night...enough of a life for you? I happen to ENJOY collecting firearms, trading around with them, experimenting with them, working on them and training with them. Because I happen to have this as a hobby rather than sitting around and watching football, bowling, constructing model trains or some other such activity, does that make me a "Rambo"-wannabe? Does watching Monday night football and talking about it with your buddies make you a "wannabe" quarterback? Does the "fishing" listed as one of your hobbies make you a "wannabe" fisherman? You really ought to reconsider your criticisms.

Betty
January 1, 2003, 01:11 PM
:neener: I guess I'm a micro-Rambo-ette in equipment, but not mentality.

El Tejon (I liked "KS Freeman" better :P) summed it up well, but I'll add a little more:

Being half the size of most of you, and being female also makes more more of a target than say, a big intimidating looking guy like PATH. I look like easily pickings, and I have to escalate in force quicker and to a higher level, because it's my 103 pounds against a 200 pound man, and I feel more threatened.

My current carry rig is a .45 USPc with one spare mag and an NAA Mini BUG, all tucked in my bellyband.

Why the spare mag? I hope I never have to use it, but I've had the bottom fall out of a mag before (not in my USP), and if that happens during a fire-fight, I'm in deep trouble.

Why the BUG? Because I'm only a "runt", I'm more likely to end up flat on my back on the ground when the big scary rapist suddenly tackles me. I may not be able to reach my USPc, but I can reach my Mini with my left hand.

There's also a multitude of other reasons for BUGs and spare mags.

I'm certified to carry an ASP as a less-than-lethal alternative, but it was too much to carry around with the other stuff.

I carry a Surefire E2E - it was handy in finding the missing office kitten. :D

I carry sharp things because I like sharp things and they're good for utility and other .

Sometimes I carry more because I just bought a new gun and want to enjoy it, or because it amuses me. :p

Rangerover
January 1, 2003, 01:16 PM
I carry a Surefire E2E - it was handy in finding the missing office kitten

Any Rambo or Ramboette that likes guns AND cats gets a big thumbs up from me! :)

tobeat1
January 1, 2003, 01:29 PM
Let me share some insights with you guys. Having pointed a firearm at a living person with the intention of shooting them dead I can honestly state that the thoughts running through MY mind at the time was "s%$T!, I wish I had a bigger gun." Maybe I just have feelings of inadequacy from something from my childhood.

p.s. I was carrying a 45 at the time.

Jeff White
January 1, 2003, 01:49 PM
Wildalaska,

I can somewhat understand your basic premise about playing Rambo, but I'm a bit confused by some of the examples you've used.

For instance;

In areas where CCW is allowed and prevelant, armed attacks by strangers on the street should be lower than in the urban gun denial venues where quite frankly its dog eat dog.

Armed attacks by strangers are pretty rare just about everywhere, but they do happen, everywhere from the best neighborhoods in suburbia to the mean streets of South Chicago or Gary, Indiana. And if it does happen...it's dog eat dog.

Look at it further, even POLICE shootings are one or two rounds, so your chance of being the victim of a mass attack of armed savages and needing to do tactical reload in your CCW jurisdiction are statistically low...

Even though police shootings may average out to be a few rounds per gunfight, the police still train to do tactical reloads. Why do you think they do that? From an adminstrator's point of view, training is expensive, it eats up money, often at overtime rates that could be better spent elsewhere. So if you are the chief of police or city manager, do you have your officers train to do tactical reloads? After all statistically, all the gunfights end in a couple rounds. Good risk to take? A lot of administrators don't think so, because training in tactical reloads is a basic task now. As an leader, you have a moral obligation to train your officers so that they are ready for any situation they may meet. As an admistrator, you have an obligation to protect your agency from civil action by providing the best training you can. As an armed citizen, it's only prudent that you train for the worst case scenario. Better to have the skills and not need them, then to need them and not have them. The one time in your life you may be faced with multiple armed assailants, you don't want to be going into mental shutdown and denial saying; "This isn't happening to me, it's statistically improbable"

Further...and most importantly...your weapon, under most laws(and please correct me if your law is different), is a DEFENSIVE weapon that is only to be used to halt or prevent the use of DEADLY physical force upon you IF you are unable to retreat...you cant shoot a person who punches you in the nose!

You are correct. Even the weapons carried by the police are defensive weapons. However you are being pretty general about what constitutes deadly force against you. Granted the person who punches me in the nose at 6'2" 240 lbs, is probably not attacking me with deadly force. But the person who punches a woman who's 5'1" and 90 lbs may be attacking her with deadly force, especially if he's say 6' and 190 lbs or bigger. There is a lot that goes into the does and don'ts of the use of force. We could spend days just discussing the scenario I just mentioned.

Nor can you generally play hero under the law...sure there are exceptions...for example you can use deadly physical force against another to prevent an arson for example..or to prevetn the use of deadly physical force against another..but you better be DARN sure that you are right or you are gonna be cooling your heels in the police hotel for quite some time...Face it..you are driving down the street, here the alarm going off, and see a guy with an AK running out of a bank...are you gonna whip your car after him, throw open the door, draw your custom carry 45 and start blasting away with him....tactical reloads and all...I think not and you are a dangerous fool if you do...rather you should do what a normal, reasonable person will do...get on that cell phone and call 911..let those who are paid to get shot at get shot at...

I think that every thread that gets going on a subject like this, pretty much ends up the way you just described. But it's good that we talk about such things here, so that those who don't know any better may learn.

What is far more likely is that someone jumps at you with a knife, you cant get away, and you put one up his schnoz...you dont need a 10mm with three extra mags to do that do you...

No you don't..but what if your assailant isn't alone? Read the police blotter section in any urban newspaper. How many robberies like that are conducted by lone assailants, and how many have at least two? I'd say that even though your chances of being robbed by one person are better then your chances of being robbed by two are more, that enough assaults and robberies are conducted by more then one assailant are high enough to justify being prepared. You brought the statistics thing up earlier, just thought I'd throw some back :cool:

Or some jerk off jumps into your car, threatens you with an ice pic...gonna be tough drawing that full size 1911 from an IWB isnt it...

That's why you're going to drive with your doors locked. And if you must go into an area where carjacking happen frequently, you'll arm yourself more appropriately, an ankle holster carry is one of the best for employment from behind the wheel. But how are those people who don't know that going to find out if we don't talk about it?

In both scenarios you are better off shoving a 32 in your pocket than your fancy carry gun...easier to get at..and looks far less "looking for trouble" than the custom carry peice..

Choice of weapon and method of carry are things that often are dictated by the situation. I don't understand what you mean by,

and looks far less "looking for trouble" than the custom carry piece

If you are flashing your weapon around, you've got no business carrying it. If you are referring to the legal Old wive's tale about prosecutors charging someone because they carried a custom pistol or hollow point ammunition so they must have been looking for trouble to start with, I challenge you to show me one case where the legal criteria for a defensive shooting was met, and those factors were brought into it. Now they may be brought into it if there are some questionable actions on the part of the shooter, but I don't know of any cases where it was an otherwise good shooting and someone was prosecuted because they showed they were looking for trouble by carrying their custom carry piece.

What measures to take as you take responsibility for your own safety are very personal decisions. If you have decided that the .32 in your pocket mets all of your needs, then that's great. If your purpose in this thread was to convince others that you've made the right choices for everyone, then you've failed. I think that you'll find that those who study the dynamics of conflict and prepare for the worst with their training are the least likely to be involved in a shooting unless htier employment regularly takes them into harms way. The more you learn about winning a fight, the more you also learn about avoiding it.

Jeff

triggertime
January 1, 2003, 02:50 PM
Wildalaska: While I understand your personal mindset and your desire to rant and berate those that think differently from you, you have to understand that there are two types of people that carry a gun.

The first type are those that carry a gun, rarely shoot it, have no formal training, gleen the majority of their information from gunrag publications and then have the veracity to get on the internet and pontificate on topics that they literally have no personal experience with and are not qualified to comment on.

The second type are those that take things a little more seriously, they shoot weekly, train regularly, have received formal training in one form or another and are generally highly knowledgable due to their own personal experience.

You'll find that the people of the second type have a completely different mindset from your own, and contrary to your personal belife, they are not the rambo worshipping mall ninja wannabes that you have stereotyped.

These are just people that have had the proverbial wake-up call due to a life threatening situation that has altered their psyche and reprogrammed their mindset to focus on self sufficiency and to assume the personal responsibility of being able to defend their lives at all times while maintaining an extremely high level of proficiency with their self defense weapons of choice.

Obviously, some people value their life more than others than to rely on an ineffective 6oz. .32 auto as a primary self defense weapon.

And with all due respect, it sounds like you fit into the catagory of the first type, so I'll just take your comments with a grain of salt if that's ok with you. :rolleyes:

BillCola
January 1, 2003, 03:49 PM
I used to think the same way as Wildalaska. My story here, like all of my stories, will be very short because I never learned to type... :(

I started taking front-line tactical firearms courses when I became convinced that being a take-a-breath-in-let-half-of-it-out range shooter was less than useless when it came to having the skills required to save your life under life-threatening stress.

Advancing into force-on-force tactical Simunitions courses, this became crystal-clear. All of a sudden those pretty 3/4 inch pairs in the chest and tha headshots became testicle hits and misses. This, while knowing there was no way I would get seriously injured or killed in the scenario. (Oh yeah: I'm now pretty sure a testicle hit with a live round will alter your opponent's behavior.)

I never really thought I would need to use deadly force in my lifetime before I started all this. A large part of the training has refined my sense of situational awareness to where I'm all but completely certain I won't get into trouble.

At this point, I train to stay sharp, and it is just plain fun. Like peeling an onion, every course exposes weaknesses that will take 2 more courses to overcome.

I carry a Batbelt because I like the best of things and know how to use them. But my real peace of mind comes from the equipment between my ears.

If that makes me Rambo, oh well...

;)

I sincerely hope that none of us will never really need this craft.

Bill

edited to add the 'c' in sincerely; again, the typing...:)

Soap
January 1, 2003, 03:55 PM
To further expound upon the subject,

Carrying a gun is a HUGE responsibility. This means that if I'm going to do it, I better be able to do it well under any kind of condition or circumstance. For example, I recently purchased a new car. I wasn't sure how it would handle in certain situations so I went out and tested it to make sure that I knew how to handle a bad situation. This included spinning it around in snow, driving at high speeds, hitting the brakes quickly, etc. I will probably never use any of this, but when I do, damn sure I better be able to handle it and know how I will react.

I try to listen to the voice of experience, so if I'm going to do something, I listen to those who know the subject better than I. I don't think that anyone can refute the experience of C.R. Sam. I recall that once he said that he always advocated shooting from odd positions. These positions were probably not likely statisically, but if he needed to shoot from them, his bases were covered.

Furthermore, I don't care if you're one of those types of people who feel like a million bucks if they tuck an NAA mini in their watchpocket. I'm glad they feel comfortable. I don't jump on the backs of people who don't train, because I couldn't care less. So don't imply that people are mall ninjas just because they train. It is bad form.

Soap
January 1, 2003, 03:58 PM
Bill- Thanks for the story. You said it all here:

I sinerely hope that none of us will never really need this craft.

Amen to that. Gunfighting skills are something that you will most likely never need, but if you need those skills, you really need them.

Keith
January 1, 2003, 04:14 PM
Interesting discussion.

On one hand, the guy who spends endless hours and money upgrading his skills and equipment is probably overdoing it - but, so what? His hobby hurts nobody and surely his skill will serve him to some extent if the shiitte hits the fan.

On the other hand, we all know people who've gone out and gotten a CCW who can barely shoot. Think back to your CCW class and you'll likely recall some schmuck who could barely handle a weapon safely and just managed to squeak through marksmanship "training" to get a carry license. He probably hasn't shot his gun since then.

Who do you want behind you in line at the convenience store when some thug draws a gun on the cashier?

I dunno... I'd rather throw stones at people who don't shoot enough, rather than at people who shoot "too much".

Keith

trapshooter
January 1, 2003, 04:50 PM
where I live, the average joe can't carry off his own property, legally.

A few other folk here in the same boat. We still yack (type) it up and practice 'unecessary' skills.

I guess we'd better check into the local mental institution.:rolleyes:

Maybe we're just jealous.;)

MountainPeak
January 1, 2003, 04:50 PM
Most of the "Rambo" type talk I hear in real life comes from people that are not active shooters. They are the ones that hip shoot a MAK or AK and hit a dirt bank 20-40 times real fast. Never mind that the hits probabably coverd a 10 YARD area. I guess it impressed their new girl friend or a non-shooter buddy. Most of the people I know that carry extra fire power/mags have also trained with it. I see nothing wrong with that. Of course, these people don't feel the need to talk Rambo like!

Wildalaska
January 1, 2003, 05:38 PM
Glad to see that this has encouraged a debate, and that SOME of you did in fact read my post...

A few points...

Everyones circs are different (and yes I have been to the **** mundi, Gary Indiana)...so the fella carrying $10, 000 cash on the streets of Gary is gonna have a lot difeerent needs tha me walking on the tunndra...

Now I have never denigrated tactics or equipment..what I have denigrated is a mindset...the Rambo mentality, the Tactical Ted...the ones who view the carrying of a firearm as an extension of their penis (if they have one sorry ladies) and as AGGRESSIVE, rather that DEFENSIVE and appropriate..you can tell who those people are form the tenor and content of their posts...and I think some of you do..

A few specifics now, although I generally do not respond to ad hominem attacks...

Wildalaska: While I understand your personal mindset and your desire to rant and berate those that think differently from you, you have to understand that there are two types of people that carry a gun.

I dont think my post was either a rant or a berate, seems like perhaps we have some projection here...and enlighten me...what is my mindset?

The first type are those that carry a gun, rarely shoot it, have no formal training, gleen the majority of their information from gunrag publications and then have the veracity to get on the internet and pontificate on topics that they literally have no personal experience with and are not qualified to comment on.

Ah, so you recognize that there is sometimes a problem...perhaps we agree we have "rambo wannabes" around here?

The second type are those that take things a little more seriously, they shoot weekly, train regularly, have received formal training in one form or another and are generally highly knowledgable due to their own personal experience.

Those are the people that have information we cann all learn from.

You'll find that the people of the second type have a completely different mindset from your own, and contrary to your personal belife, they are not the rambo worshipping mall ninja wannabes that you have stereotyped.

WEll first you have to tell me what my mindset is, and then tell me how I sterotyped anyone as a "mall ninja"...

Obviously, some people value their life more than others than to rely on an ineffective 6oz. .32 auto as a primary self defense weapon.

Ah I see, so your claim is that anyone who carries a mouse gun does not value their life..that only peiople who carry "BIG" guns do....in other words, carry your MP5 down the streets of Gary Indiana, lots of criminals there..the only persons then who appropriately carry a firearm, despite any other circumstances or the level of their traing, are those that carry a "BIG" gun...

And with all due respect, it sounds like you fit into the catagory of the first type, so I'll just take your comments with a grain of salt if that's ok with you.

Absolutely thats find...as long as you share with me the secret of your omniscience that allows you to glean my mindset from a post....

BillCola
January 1, 2003, 05:44 PM
Dad gummit, now I'm ashamed for not reading your post! :evil:

Wildalaska
January 1, 2003, 05:48 PM
. If your purpose in this thread was to convince others that you've made the right choices for everyone, then you've failed.

You misinterpeted my purpose....remember my closing line..
"So guys, lets not stop talking about our favorite things...but lets temper it with a bit of reality..ya get a newbie asking "gee whats best to carry" maybe we can interject a little common sense into all of this.."

Just looking for a reality check.....

Wildalaska
January 1, 2003, 05:54 PM
So don't imply that people are mall ninjas just because they train. It is bad form.

I trust I did not say that, did I?

cheygriz
January 1, 2003, 06:09 PM
WildAlaska,

Your posts on this thread show more common sense and maturity than than I've seen in a long time.

I have 20 years experience in law enforcement, with 15 years as a certified police firearms insrtuctor. I've had several hundreds of hour of formal firearms training from instructors with the NRA, FBI, police academies and other government and private entities.

You are absolutely correct about mindset, my friend. And I believe that if some of the folks who have been flaming you would take a moment to stop and seriously think about what they're arguing, they would agre with you.

It's easy to be "macho Rambo" when you're young. Been there, done that. It's a bit more difficult, (at least it was for me) when you hit about 30, to seriously rethink your beliefs and values. If you do, you've taken a large step toward maturity.

Soap
January 1, 2003, 06:29 PM
I trust I did not say that, did I?

Well this thread is a direct reaction to something that I stated in this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1428

You directly quote me in the beginning of this thread where I stated that it is tough to do one-handed manipulations with snag-frees. You ridicule full size 1911s, spare mags, and practicing advanced gunhandling. You imply that none of this is practical and that it is evidence of some sort of problem with distinguishing fantasy from reality, or that it stems from some problem with aggression. You didn't say it explicitly, but you really didn't need to.

Also, drawing from IWB takes the same amount of time for a full size 1911 as it does with a P32. Unless you are bowling. Which is a tell-tale sign of bad gunhandling.

BTW- I really like your guns. Good work and good concept :)

Keith
January 1, 2003, 06:30 PM
I think we did read your initial post. Some of what you said makes sense to me and some doesn't.

For example: "Time and time again I read about and listen to debates about how you need "snag free sights in case you have to clear a malfunction one handed", or must have a "back up" weapon,"

Well, if your weapon is intended for concealed carry (as opposed to shooting beer cans on Saturday mornings or hunting), you'd damned well better consider snag free sights and practice clearing malfunctions.

If I wander into WW Guns (which I have done on many occasions), and ask you about Marlin Rifles, you (I hope) are going to ask me what my intentions are - is the rifle for use as a bear back-up while fishing, for hunting, for silhouette shooting? Depending on what the rifle is for, you'd offer different options or even suggest a different rifle altogether. And I would value your opinions on the matter because your shop has a reputation in that area.

When somebody comes into this forum and asks about handguns or general carry information, he's going to get a variety of advice from a variety of people. And yeah, some of it is going to be overkill - snag-free sights, yeah - good idea. Backup guns... maybe that's overkill.

I just don't equate such advice with a "Rambo" mentality. A guy who has to carry receipts from his liquor store in Detroit out the door every night at 1am better have all the firepower and skills he can handle. That same guy might think my Guide Gun (with the WWG upgrades) is silly. He doesn't run across 1200 pound bears on a regular basis, and I don't have to carry cash through the mean streets of Detroit.

Jeff White
January 1, 2003, 06:32 PM
Maybe I haven't read enough of the threads here, but I don't see too many of the "Kill em all and let God sort em out..." type discussions get really going here before someone steps in and tempers things some.

In fact I think this is one of the best places for the Rambo wannabee to surf into. He's more likely to get educated here then anywhere else online, when he starts starts posting that way.

Guess I just didn't realize we had that problem here.

Jeff

BigG
January 1, 2003, 07:14 PM
I've read quite a few stories about police firing their hicap 9s dry, seems there's some kinda reflex that keeps an excited person hauling back on the trigger till the gun runs dry.

Larry Correia punctured many of these Rambo myths on a classic thread on The Firing Line.

Wildalaska
January 1, 2003, 08:04 PM
You didn't say it explicitly, but you really didn't need to.

Well I surely apologize if you think that because I borrowed your example that I was calling you a mall ninja (whatever that is)..

and again keep in mind I am not talking about training per se or even technique (and btw I can clear a jam one handed with a Novak sighted gun)...I am talking about a mindset of aggresssion not defense....

Soap
January 1, 2003, 08:10 PM
Wildalaska- A mall ninja is one of those type of guys who think they can destroy a terrorist cell because they have an HK SOCOM, M4gery with Trijicon/Surefire/etc.. They are the people that think that equipment=skill. They are also the same people who think that they are mean motor scooters when really they would cry like a baby if someone punched them in the jaw. In short, they pretend to be "operators" when really they are just wanna-be losers.

I guess the people here are unsure of exactly what you are trying to say. What exactly is your point? Is it one of statisics? One of need? Also, no offense taken. I just think that I (and some others) are not sure what you are trying to say.

Also, I can clear a jam one-handed with my Novak equipped 1911 as well, but I find that I can do it far more reliably with a gun equipped with a blocky set of Trijicons. YMMV.

faustulus
January 1, 2003, 08:12 PM
Remember the vast majority of us are theorists, not applied scientists. Get a bunch of theorists together that is what they do theorize.

Wildalaska
January 1, 2003, 08:31 PM
If I wander into WW Guns (which I have done on many occasions), and ask you about Marlin Rifles, you (I hope) are going to ask me what my intentions are - is the rifle for use as a bear back-up while fishing, for hunting, for silhouette shooting? Depending on what the rifle is for, you'd offer different options or even suggest a different rifle altogether. And I would value your opinions on the matter because your shop has a reputation in that area.

I do that every day...but look at my signature of course...:)

When somebody comes into this forum and asks about handguns or general carry information, he's going to get a variety of advice from a variety of people. And yeah, some of it is going to be overkill - snag-free sights, yeah - good idea. Backup guns... maybe that's overkill.

Exactly my point again....sometimes we have overkill here do we not...

The whole thing is to be reasonable about it..like you say:

I just don't equate such advice with a "Rambo" mentality. A guy who has to carry receipts from his liquor store in Detroit out the door every night at 1am better have all the firepower and skills he can handle. That same guy might think my Guide Gun (with the WWG upgrades) is silly. He doesn't run across 1200 pound bears on a regular basis, and I don't have to carry cash through the mean streets of Detroit.

There it is...maybe you have expressed my concept better than me...

The right to self defense, which is a fundamental right of all people above and beyond the 2nd amendment, is not a right to be excersized only the by the "trained" (assuming we can even define what "training" is)..its a right for everyone.

Some people choose to excersize that right by carrying a firearm. Thats OK. As another poster has said, the excersize of that rightis an awesome responsibility and entails "training" with that firearm (whatever training is)...

Some people view "training as going through the courses at Gunsite and thats fine. Others view it as practice, or private sessions, or military service, or police background, etc. What is sufficient training is beyond the scope of this thread...

What is important to the awesome resonsibility of carrying a gun is MINDSET. All the physical and technical training training and hardware in the world does not change that. The use of a weapon by a civilian is a last ditch defense to save life. Any use of the firearm to do that that ends a life is gonna be as highly scrutinized as any other HOMICIDE (becasue thats what it is under the law). As one old cop told me, if you shoot someone and want to guarantee you will be cleared "you better have a hole in your vest and the gun that made it in his dead hand." Now I am sure all of us would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, but the fact remains you will be judged...by not only circumastances as YOU saw them but with the Monday Morning quarterback mentality so common in law enforcement. And woe to you if you live someplace where it is "anti gun" or where someone is looking to make a name for himself.

The point is, I think, that we all have to be real careful...if a guy has a question "Whats the best carry gun and technique" the answer should not be..."Custom 1911 with sights you can use to clear malfunction and no guide rod because you cant press load one handed loaded with Black Talons, 4 spare mags in Kramer IWB with J frame back up on ankle loaded with depleted uranium rounds" but rather..

OK where do you live..high crime area or low crime...?

How much "training" are you gonna have..how much shooting do you do...are you uncomfortable with certain calibers. etc...?

Hell guys I live in Anchorage...we dont walk anywhere except in the parks (.45 usually for those, moose!)...strteet crime as long as you are sober and a non criminal is virtually non existent....what do I need more than my NAA for?

And Keith, what do you carry in the ciity limits of Kodiak?

MLH
January 1, 2003, 08:36 PM
For some it's called testostorone.
For others it's paranoia.
For others it's just the mall ninja coming out.:uhoh:

cordex
January 1, 2003, 09:22 PM
The point is, I think, that we all have to be real careful...if a guy has a question "Whats the best carry gun and technique" the answer should not be..."Custom 1911 with sights you can use to clear malfunction and no guide rod because you cant press load one handed loaded with Black Talons, 4 spare mags in Kramer IWB with J frame back up on ankle loaded with depleted uranium rounds" but rather..

OK where do you live..high crime area or low crime...?
Wildalaska,
You're right ... there is no "one size fits all" solution.
As "El Tejon" would say, there is no Magic Sword.
We agree there, I think.

But I think you need to re-examine your original post. From my perpsective, you didn't appear to just tell people that before they recommend a Magic Sword Carry Rig and Ammunition Depot(tm) loadout, they need to determine the ultimate use and intention of the audience, It seemed that you just couldn't resist poking a little fun at anyone whose situation demanded, or even has chosen to carry anything beyond your own needs.

That's how I read it, anyway. But, then, I carry a backup gun and three spare magazines. And I can drag the sights on my 1911 across my belt to clear the gun one-handed. So you can discount what I say ... *grin*

Bob A
January 2, 2003, 01:55 AM
I had a long post to reply here, but suffice it to say this...

1. You're right about preparing for an attacker. That is, after all why I carry my gun. I was tired and what I was trying to do (responding to the original post) was make the point that if somebody wants to hurt you, there isn't much you can do to stop them. There are counter measures you can take, but they only go so far.

2. At no point did I make the statement (or imply, infer, or suggest) that carrying a gun, having a backup plan or escape route, having a spare mag (or 2) or practicing with the gun makes you a Rambo. If you carry 3 guns, have a shotgun in the trunk of your car, and have 6 mags for each weapon, that's a different story. If you do that almost anywhere in the US, the DA will probably prosecute and say you were looking for trouble. Ask any cop or ex-cop on this board if he or she thinks this is reasonable.

3. For somebody who I have never met, wasn't responding to, and know nothing about, you have a great ability to read my mind. I sure didn't know I meant all those things, and when I reread my post, I couldn't see how you got all that from what I posted. Please lend me your crystal ball.


I don't care what people do with their time unless it affects me in some way. If you and Bubba want to shoot up every round of ammo you can get every Saturday, have at it. But if you think for a second that there's no such thing as a gun nut, Rambo, or Tackleberry mentality, you're as wrong as 2 left shoes. Practice and being prepared for improbabilities are prudent, but unless you're a Navy SEAL or on a SWAT team, there is nothing the average person will gain from this much "training" unless it's just for fun. The main thing you need with your gun is a survival mindset. Most of the rest is window dressing.

BigG
January 2, 2003, 08:48 AM
Imho, it's a bit of harmless fantasy/role play that some guys indulge in. Some guys get paid for fulfilling the fantasies of others. They are called teachers. "Suppose that piece of cardboard is a bad guy and he's holding a knife to your loved one's throat..." :eek:

Anything that helps you develop your marksmanship or familiarization with your weapon is good. If it is FUN, it is a bonus.

We all have a streak of Walter Mitty in us to one degree or another. Look at the popularity of those 1-900 numbers, for example. :uhoh:

Soap
January 2, 2003, 10:21 AM
What is important to the awesome resonsibility of carrying a gun is MINDSET. All the physical and technical training training and hardware in the world does not change that.

I think everyone here would agree with that. But once you have mindset, it doesn't hurt to develop your technique so it becomes automatic. It also doesn't hurt to use equipment that facilitates your techniques or even your mindset.

OK where do you live..high crime area or low crime...?

Since most of the crime in your area is committed by moose...;) :D I think its important to remember that in a modern city that there are no longer the hard lines between the good side of town and the bad side of town. It is nearly impossible to avoid crime in a modern city by staying on the "right side of the tracks".

GhostShooter
January 2, 2003, 10:41 AM
the idea that one NEEDS to have all this training, extra mags, the hottest rounds, back up guns so you can go out and FIGHT the goblins for truth, justice and the American way....

Why would you not want to have as much training as humanly possible? Also, do you realize how many stories there are out there about people who needed the extra mag or BUG. Granted Statistically it's small but for that matter so is the chance that you will need your CCW. Guess it's time to hang up the pistol.... http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/sad.gif

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/2M16.gif

triggertime
January 2, 2003, 10:59 AM
"I dont think my post was either a rant or a berate, seems like perhaps we have some projection here...and enlighten me...what is my mindset?"

If your post was not a rant with the intention to berate then why have you chosen to denigrate those who take their level of self preparedness more seriously than yours?

You've already stated that you view those whos mindset differentiates from yours as people who are carry a gun as an extention of their penis, so it would be easy to assume that you also view those who train as people who are feeding their machismo and simply do not need to train. You're saying that developing a high level of proficiency with your self defense weapons of choice is unnecessary because you're never going to have the opportunity to use them anyway. Right?

What is your mindset? Similar to that of 'Jan Liberal'. You scrutinize those who carry, what they carry, their need to carry and have formed the opinion that every problem in the world can be solved without training and a Seecamp .32 (or in your case, a Keltec P32)

Perhaps you should apply for the position of gun-writer since you're obviously the 'pseudo Jan'.

"Ah, so you recognize that there is sometimes a problem...perhaps we agree we have "rambo wannabes" around here?"

Yes, there is a problem, but you won't find people like that here. If you want to play in the sand with people like that, then theres always that other board devoted to the plastic fantastic. I hear they have a big sandbox, perhaps you should go visit?

"WEll first you have to tell me what my mindset is, and then tell me how I sterotyped anyone as a "mallninja"..."

I've already told you what your mindset is. In a nutshell, you stereotype anyone that has a 'warrior mindset' as a rambo worshipping mall ninja.

"Ah I see, so your claim is that anyone who carries a mouse gun does not value their life..that only peiople who carry "BIG" guns do....in other words, carry your MP5 down the streets of Gary Indiana, lots of criminals there..the only persons then who appropriately carry a firearm, despite any other circumstances or the level of their traing, are those that carry a "BIG" gun..."

Anyone that heeds the advice that is pontificated in various gunrag publications and then changes the order of their life based on that information is severely lacking in judgment.

Simply assuming that a 'mouse gun' is sufficient enough to ward off all evil that one may or may not encounter during the course of their daily life is foolish.

It is safe to say that anyone who values their life would not willingly depend on an ineffective tool for self defense unless they were either ignorant or corrupted by the erroneous information they've been subjected to via the various gunrag publications.

People who know better get their information from a more reliable source and then formulate their own opinions and plan and prepare accordingly. It all boils down to the fact that some people value their life more than others.

But if carrying an ineffective mousegun out of convenience rather than to accomodate for a more appropriate self defense arm flips your chicken, then by all means, have at it. Its your life, not mine.

"Absolutely thats find...as long as you share with me the secret of your omniscience that allows you to glean my mindset from a post...."

Intuition and experience from interacting with people of your caliber. No pun intended, of course. ;)

Edit: typo - Choosen? Chosen.

King
January 2, 2003, 11:52 AM
This thread reminds me of "Clyde", one or Little Bill's deputies in the movie "Forgiven". If you saw it, Clyde was the one armed deputy.

At one point, Clyde returns to the sheriff's office just before a situation boils up with "English Bob". Other deputies are preparing and have even loaded one armed Clyde's revolvers.

Clyde returns, empties the revolver and reloads it himself as well as two other revolvers. One deputy asks him why a one armed guys needs all that firepower anyway.

Clyde's response...."I just don't want to get killed for lack of shooting back".

Having an "arsenal" on you at any given time may be too much but having the right tools and in sufficient quantites to keep from getting killed for lack of shooting back is another matter. That will depend largely on one's own personal situation and yes" their mindset". Hopefully they are skilled, trained, practiced and have good judgement to go along with those tools.

Keith
January 2, 2003, 02:32 PM
Wild,

Only you can decide whether or not you need to carry a gun, and what type of gun that might be.

When I come to Anchorage, I'm usually staying downtown at the Captain Cook. It's not unusual to encounter insane, ranting drunks exhibiting violent behavior on any of the side streets after dark. You've seen it - some fool in from one of the villages on his semi-annual drunken binge who suddenly becomes a street-Zorro with an empty wine bottle after being ejected from a bar.
Altercations are easily avoided in most cases by simply walking by and avoiding contact, but I don't feel silly packing a .45 in Anchorage.
Here in Kodiak a year ago, three drunk fisherman were staggering around a neighborhood making a racket in the middle of the night, arguing, throwing bottles, etc. An off-duty cop went outside to ask them to quiet down and ended up in intensive care with knife wounds. It's not unusual to have 4 or 5 thousand out-of-town commercial fisherman awaiting a big opening, and this place can be like Dodge City when you pack that many people in town and feed them enough booze.
Not too long before the incident above, three local teenagers decided they wanted to move to LA to "join a gang" (no ****!). They felt the best way to be taken seriously was to kill somebody before they left. They called a cab and shot him to death when he arrived - it could just as easily been a random stranger (me) walking down the street.


You can REDUCE the odds of being involved in such an affair by choosing to live in a "safe" place (like Anchorage or Kodiak) and you can further reduce your odds by simply being prudent in your actions - avoid known trouble spots, avoid potential conflicts with drunks, etc. But, at some point you have to take charge of your own life. I refuse to lock myself in my hotel room because of downtown Anchorage drunks and druggies. I refuse to avoid enjoying my own small city because a bunch of drunks are in town.

So, hell yes I pack a gun! The odds are a thousand to one that I'll never need it, but if I do I'll need it real bad. Most of the time I'm carrying a .380 Mustang Pocketlight. When "the boys" are whooping it up downtown, I pack a Compact Aluminum Kimber .45

Keith

ball3006
January 2, 2003, 03:18 PM
your number one defense is being aware of your surroundings and being observant. I carry a small pocket pistol during the day and the regular big gun at night, which is rarely because I do not go out much at night. Too old for the night life. I normally shoot left handed but carry right handed if in a car because you cannot get the gun out lefthanded because of the door. I try to go thru 100 rounds a month to stay proficient. At home I have radar, my two Siamese who never fail to look towards a "different" noise and if I am not in the room they meow so I will come look at what they think they hear. I like the idea of a designated CCW when going out mentioned in another post.....chris3

Wildalaska
January 2, 2003, 03:25 PM
Why would you not want to have as much training as humanly possible

Never said that training is not important...the issue is how much training...as someone said earlier...do you need to be a Navy Seal to carry a gun..or is it Walter Mittyish,,,

Seems that many of us are saying the same thing, except for one or two posters that are showing the type of aggression I am referring too:D

Wildalaska
January 2, 2003, 03:49 PM
Perhaps you should apply for the position of gun-writer since you're obviously the 'pseudo Jan'....

If you want to play in the sand with people like that, then theres always that other board devoted to the plastic fantastic. I hear they have a big sandbox, perhaps you should go visit?



I'm sorry you are so angry.....

Viking6
January 2, 2003, 04:15 PM
It's irresponsible (but your right) to go out and about with a gun and not be trained to the minimum requirement to safely operate the weapon you carry. For a hobby, no harm in training as far as you can take it, I wish I could train more, I think I train enough. What I have noticed in some posts, from time to time, is what we used to call a certain "froginess". Maybe it's a matter of my perception but the signal, sometimes more subtle than others, that I get is "man, would I love to shoot somebody". That expression is generally rare and usually out-balanced by what I think are more rational posts from more rational "mindsets". But good wishes to all and good shooting.

P12
January 2, 2003, 04:58 PM
If some didn't see the "overkill" how would they know where the sensible middle is?

Soap
January 2, 2003, 05:24 PM
Never said that training is not important...the issue is how much training...as someone said earlier...do you need to be a Navy Seal to carry a gun..or is it Walter Mittyish,,,

I see your point. But I really don't agree with it. You can plain and simple be an idiot and carry a gun. I really don't care unless it affects me. You can be a mall ninja and carry a gun. Or you could be Jeff Cooper himself...none of it bothers me. But it would be convenient for me to simply counter that people who toss a mousegun in a pocket are irresponsible bliss ninnies who probably walk around in condition white all day. But that would be unfair. Just as it is unfair for you to label people who train seriously as Rambo wannabes. Where did you get so broad a brush?

Also, since you seem to know, what exactly is the perfect amount of training for me and whomever else posted on this thread? We're curious to know.

Harold Mayo
January 2, 2003, 06:00 PM
If you and Bubba want to shoot up every round of ammo you can get every Saturday, have at it.

Me and Bubba? What does THAT mean?


But if you think for a second that there's no such thing as a gun nut, Rambo, or Tackleberry mentality, you're as wrong as 2 left shoes.

Never said or implied that there wasn't. I have no idea where you came up with that.


Practice and being prepared for improbabilities are prudent, but unless you're a Navy SEAL or on a SWAT team, there is nothing the average person will gain from this much "training" unless it's just for fun.

There ARE MANY things that the average person can gain BESIDES having fun. I don't advocate EVERYONE "going tactical" (horrid phrase), but it's up to the individual. Training for a marathon is grueling and there is absolutely no objective benefit for the average person in running one, but there are MANY people who do so just for the experience or to say that they ran one. The average person who is going to carry a gun SHOULD practice with it, though to what extent is up to the individual. MOST people who carry a firearm, LEOs especially, should train more than they do. Simply HAVING a gun isn't the answer.


The main thing you need with your gun is a survival mindset. Most of the rest is window dressing.

Ummm...ok. Training is window dressing. Learning to be BETTER is window dressing. Having a gun and an attitude is all you need.

HS/LD
January 2, 2003, 06:36 PM
I don’t want to get on a rant here but…

While I couldn't agree more, that intelligence and restraint is the key to surviving 99.999% of life’s threatening situations... I further agree that I am much more likely to get colon cancer and hemorrhoids than shot at… let alone actually shot!

I have trained for years in various hand-to-hand combat styles, spent hours and hours in the gym and school, but I have NEVER had a fight in a bar :) I still realize the biggest benefits from this training are the health aspects and the development of discipline and confidence….
I have, however, defended myself successfully against multiple attackers at various times and appreciate the time and effort I put into my training.

Likewise I carry 11 rounds of .40 in my handgun (and sometimes an extra 10) and a 4" folder (both in "tactical black":D ). I shoot every week. I researched, and studied various “tactical” ammo types (I carry 165grain Rem GS;) ) I practice "tactical" reloads, “tactical” weak hand shooting and “tactical” Mozambique Drills.
In my short life:
I have shot four people. (That I know of :)) All, however, while serving my country.
I have been shot twice, also while serving my country.
I have come close, one time as a civilian, to using my “tactical black handgun” for defense, and like most people, I exercised good judgment and restraint… while my front sight hovered in front of his chest my finger never entered the trigger guard:)
I have been stabbed as a civilian and whished to God I had my handgun or a knife with me!

Like I said I agree that most of life’s challenges are solved with intellect and money. However, if we look at your argument (the original post) and take it a step further we could argue that the antis are right. You are extremely unlikely to ever need a firearm let alone your tricked out “tactical” (I love that word :D) 5 inch custom .45! You really don’t even NEED a gun, let alone a “tactical” one! In fact you ARE actually MUCH MORE likely to SHOOT YOURSELF with your own gun than if you didn’t own one, right!!

What concerns me in how we advocate self-reliance and preparedness. We advocate, here, the right to carry a gun and use it in defense… but we suddenly become wildly outraged when someone says they would rush to the aid of a stranger who is being raped and beaten; or God Forbid someone would actually put forward the idea that they would clear their own home!! People clamour that we are exposing ourselves to the threat of litigation, bodily harm, incarcerated, death… Just move to a safe place and dial 911! That is what I hear from the left! You don’t need a handgun just a cell phone and a :cuss: rape whistle!!

WildAlaska wrote:
rather you should do what a normal, reasonable person will do...get on that cell phone and call 911..let those who are paid to get shot at get shot at...

That’s why the guys in the services get soooo much more money than the rest of us civilians ($18,000 a year for me at the height of my public service in the Army). That’s why LEOs are willing to risk being shot, because they get ALL the money!!
What!??!?!

Now am I saying that if I saw guys running out of the bank with Aks and body armour that I too would charge in and confront them with my water pistol? Hell No!!
However… I do lots of things I am not paid to do…

So you guys are saying don’t carry a “tactical” looking pistol… don’t have a “tactical” shotgun for home defense don’t carry pre-ban mags (how do you think those will appear to a trial lawyer and a liberal jury. “The defendant had this evil black death dealing machine loaded with “clips” the likes of which have been BANNED under federal law!! The defendant even paid 4-5 times as much money for these “clips” just so that he had enough evil Teflon coated cop killer bullets to MURDER poor defenseless Rapist Bob”. Don’t even think of going to investigate the bump in your basement at night!! You are crazy you might get hurt, you could get sued!!

I put my seatbelt on religiously and purchased a vehicle that not only had ABS, front and side airbags but one that had side CURTAIN air bags. Does this mean that I exit my driveway HOPING and WANTING to crash into someone… to think I even took a defensive driving course!
I do exit my driving HOPING and WANTING the airbags to deploy if a do happen to be unlucky enough to crash.

I carry a black tactical handgun loaded with the most devastating rounds that fits in the chamber, I carry the most evil looking knife I can find (maybe the sight of it will be enough…) If your mother, wife, daughter or sister is being raped and beaten by a gang of scum bags you can rest assured I AM going to open myself to the possibility of litigation and bodily harm, even though I am not getting paid for it, you know it might even cost me money!! Oh well I am enough of a Rambo I will still try to help her. When I hear someone coming through a window in my home you can bet I am going to grab my gun and implement an ambush, even if he bought two friends with him! I assure you the intruder in my home should be more afraid of me than I am about him! Litigation be damned!

In the end of course we should plan and train for the worst case scenario but pray and hope for the best.

Could someone here give me a hand to get down off this soap box… I have a bad knee :)

Regards,
HS/LD

BTW what the hell is wrong with the word tactical?
Lets ban it! It might offend someone!
Note: The word “TACTICAL” was used 13 times in this post!

Nosferatu
January 2, 2003, 08:24 PM
Just to pose a question of training and tactics, from a different perspective, as well as (from what I can understand) help part of the point I think Wildalaska is trying to get at; How many of you take devensive driving or similar courses that might save you life by avoiding an auto accident? I have a feeling we all drive a lot more than we get attacked. Why not put your focus on what statistically is more likely to happen? Die in a car wreck vs. die by an armed attacker.

triggertime
January 2, 2003, 08:44 PM
"I'm sorry you are so angry....."

Why paint someone as being angry just because they've chosen to participate in an intellectual debate? Because of their writing style? That would be stereotyping again, wouldn't it? ;)

Navy joe
January 2, 2003, 08:52 PM
What if? Your answers to your what ifs should dictate what you carry, where you go, how you act. If you ask some inane what if, that's your problem. I don't care if 30 rabid micro hottentots crawl out of your shower drain and attack you in your sleep. Your problem buddy.

For me, my what ifs say a lot. I live in a sprawling urban area, travel at odd times due to work schedules, sometime go shooping at 3am while the world sleeps. I travel alone, most trouble comes in a pack. Better yet, my home is separated from my job by 3 miles of water. I can't legally carry where I work, Federal Gov property. Better yet, I've recognized since before the Africa embassy bombings that it is a spiffy terrorist target.
The sum is I leave home with the expectation that I might not be able to go home at night, maybe never. When I go away for the weekends, it's the same, maybe I won't be able to come back. I usually go away on all the big holidays, some family is near DC, another great target.

So when I'm on base, 2-4 knives on car or in person, right now my hunting pack is still in the trunk. Sep 12, 2001 I got to work on foot two hours late, two hours before most everyone else, carrying a 40lb pack w/ gas mask, filter attached. Because ya never know.
When I can, there is a pistol with a reload on me, one with at least two mags in the glovebox and a rifle in the trunk. Last weekend the rifle had 5 mags and 260 rds in the bag with it. That all went to Maryland with me (highly illegal). If I felt it really necessary a gun might end up in the car while on base.

I don't do the batman belt thing, but I see nothing Rambo-esque about having a gun and reloads available. If it's a lo-cap gun I usually have a min. of 18 rds. on me, the hi-cap 9mm usually I have just carried with one reload for 34 rounds total. 2 pocketknives don't add an undue burden. The flashlights stay in the car, no mace, ninja batons or anything. If I was good with an ASP I'd sure carry one though.

Most of my sights are pretty snag free, I like the P35 and 1911 variants sans guide rod for their utility in one handed loading, charging, etc.

Navy joe
January 2, 2003, 08:54 PM
You never read about the kung fu master getting into a fight in a bar on Saturday night.

There's a reason for that. If you replay the film on slow speed you will see the local newspaper hack sipping swill at the end of the bar. Every film I've seen the kung-fu master cleans out every fool in the bar. Reporter unavailable for comment. :D

Yohan
January 2, 2003, 09:34 PM
Sir, I'm afraid I shall have to flame!

http://www.grunts.net/album/usmc/usmc43a.gif

:evil: :fire:

If there's a guy with an ice pick coming into my car- I believe I shall perform a tactical reload just to show the guy I mean business, and the extra mags? In case my hands shake too much to perform a high speed reload, I'll just pick them up and throw it at him :D

MountainPeak
January 2, 2003, 11:07 PM
You do not have to be Rambo to provide adequate defense for yourself and family. You don't have to be a stalking, gunwielding wanna be killer because you are trained in self defense firearms. You don't have to be a chalkmark victim, so some wanna be Columbo can break yours or a family members murder case. You can legally protect yourself by training and awareness of your surroundings. Trust me, most cops are much better in the chalk mark scenerio. They know it, and anyone with half a brain knows it. Don't buy into that they can protect you. They can't and seldom do. It isn't that they wouldn't like to, it just doesn't work that way. Protect yourself. Those that they "protect and serve" are left to fend for themselves. They are allowed to protect thier own families. Every wonder if more LEO groups would support CCW if they already didn't have the right for CCW for their own selves and loved ones? WEll?

Sweatnbullets
January 3, 2003, 12:05 AM
There are many disturbing posts here, not only from the original poster, but, also from many of people agreeing with the thread starter.

Even though, I feel there has been a fantastic job of thoroughly truncing your very narrow opinion, I feel there is a need to point out one more flaw in your thinking. It is what I would call your elitist/seperatist/turncoat gunowner mindset .

I don't care if you shoot skeet, trap, cowboy action shooting, IDPA, benchrest, or you just hunt. It does not matter to me if you have a CCW, or you carry in your car. I have no problem with you if your home defense weapon is a .22 revolver unloaded and locked in your closet, or it's a fully loaded 590A1 tucked under your bed. I could care the least if you have never trained, or if you have taken six courses in the last two months at Blackwater, Storm Mountain, and Thunder Ranch. It is no concern of mine if you train with a combat mindset, or you shoot for fun. And I could give a flying frick if you would never shoot in self defense, would only protect yourself or your loved ones, or if you feel the need to step in and protect a third party.

The only thing that matters to me is if you are Pro-gun or you are Anti-gun, this is a black and white issue, there is no gray. Sitting on the fence means you are an Anti. The attitude that you are the one to make the decision of what is an acceptable use, application, or type of a firearm, frankly, disgusts me!

We are all gun owners, if not we wouldn't be on this forum. Why in the he!! can't we stop with this "seperation of acceptability" BS! The Anti's tactic has always been "divide and conquere," Well we already took care of the "divide" for them. When is this stupidity going to end.

If you are a supporter of the Second Amendment, you must support it fully, not just the parts that applies to you. Everytime you talk smack about someone elses sport, hobby, training, mindset, or the type of weapon they own, shoot ,or carry you are striking a blow to our gun rights. We need to all be on tha same team and fully support the right to bear arms, in whatever form that may be.

Feel free to flame this rant, but just remember, as soon as you do you will be identified as the turncoat that you are.:neener:

edited because I can't type

Wildalaska
January 3, 2003, 01:02 AM
Why paint someone as being angry just because they've chosen to participate in an intellectual debate? Because of their writing style? That would be stereotyping again, wouldn't it?

No...you are just really angry I think.....

fivepaknh
January 3, 2003, 01:07 AM
Wow, that was a powerful little speech by Sweatnbullets. :rolleyes: Calling someone a turncoat because they don't happen to agree with you is pushing it a bit, isn't it? I have a very libertarian view of the 2nd amendment and your comment kind of pisses me off.

Let me clarify where I stand. I think training is a good thing. If you're going to carry an instrument that can cause the death of yourself or another, then common sense says you should be trained with it.

I realize that in the slim chance I might need to use a gun to defend myself, that I'll probably be pretty scared at the moment, and my shot placement might not be perfect. To compensate I carry the largest caliber weapon that I can conceal, half the time a .45, the other half a 9mm, both with Hydra-shoks. I usually put and extra mag in my front pants pocket on my weak side.

We're all going to have at least a slightly different idea on what's practical to carry. It reminds me of a George Carlin bit. He comments on people's driving habits. Anyone driving faster than you is a maniac. Anyone driving slower than you is a real butthole(don't want to piss off the word filter). It's all a matter of perspective.

I'm not suggesting that we legislate that training be mandatory or ban the Batman belts with all the deadly gadgets. I could care less if someone has a belt full of frags under their jacket. It's their burden to conceal it and carry the extra weight. I just roll my eyes at the gung ho types that think there's a chance in hell they'll need all that stuff. To some my extra mag in my pocket may seem excessive. That's ok too. They don't have to carry it. They can express their opinions all they want so long as they don't try to legislate it.

Wildalaska
January 3, 2003, 01:07 AM
If you are a supporter of the Second Amendment, you must support it fully, not just the parts that applies to you. Everytime you talk smack about someone elses sport, hobby, training, mindset, or the type of weapon they own, shoot ,or carry you are striking a blow to our gun rights. We need to all be on tha same team and fully support the right to bear arms, in whatever form that may be.

Ignoring the flames (which are so ignorant, dont you think? Im sure there is a better way to argue..)..all I can say is I really dont understand what relevance your post has to this argument..it is somewhat nonsensical IMHO...

We arent talking about the 2nd amendment..and taking your logic to its silliest extreme, if I dont like Glocks and say so..I must therefore be a turncoat...???

Sweatnbullets
January 3, 2003, 11:16 PM
I'm sorry you can't see the relevance, It is pretty plain to see.

When a fellow gun owner draws a line in the sand and says, this the point where you go from being a good gun owner, to being a "RAMBO". That makes you an elitist and a seperatist. Is that clear enough for you. You believe that your veiw on the subject is better than anyone elses. You cast a negative light on anyone that carries more than a .32 in his pocket, carries a extra mag, or has ever practice a tactical reload. All of which I see as basic "common sense."

By your use of the word "Rambo" (for anyone that did not agree with your preception of a "common sense" gun owner), and your statement about "extension of their penis", you lead the way to such fine pro-gun owners words as Gun nut, Tactical Ted, and Mall Ninja.

If you would re-read your posts you will see that you brought up the Second Amendment long before I did. If you don't see a problem with an elitist/seperatist attitude pretaining to the protection of our gun rights, then there is no use in trying to explain it to you.

I stand by what I said in my first post. (which is a lot more than what you did.)

Preacherman
January 3, 2003, 11:20 PM
I'm getting more than a little tired with the lack of good manners and common sense displayed by some respondents to this thread. Please remember, all of you, that this is THE HIGH ROAD. We are free to agree or disagree with one another, but our responses should always be addressed to the ARGUMENT PRESENTED, not directed as a personal attack against the respondent him/herself. To do otherwise is childish and ridiculous, and merely serves the opponents of RKBA in their attempts to portray all of us as insensitive bumpkins who dream of Rambo at night and try to emulate him by day. Please bear this in mind in your future postings.

This thread is CLOSED!

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