[Marko Kloos]

I just thought about this tonight, and I think that a successful campaign in Iraq may be the most brilliant and daring foreign intervention of the last hundred years for the United States.

When we depose Saddam and install a pro-US, pro-democracy government, we will have secured base rights smack-dab in the middle of the powder keg, right next door to all the trouble makers. We will not have to go to the Saudis or Qataris anymore, hat in hand, and ask to maybe please base our planes on their soil. We will be almost next door to Israel, which will probably not be a bad thing in their eyes.

Also, we will have secured a dependable and cheap source of Middle Eastern oil, which means that OPEC can no longer hold us hostage via energy needs and supply. This would be an extremely good thing for the U.S. and world economies in the long run.

If this gambit succeeds, it would be a stellar success for the securing of U.S. interests. If it fails, it will be a spectacular and expensive failure and cost us the good will of most of the world.

All this would dramatically shift the power balance in the Middle East.

Your thoughts?

[DeltaElite]

I am seeing it too.
If the Iraqi people thank us and welcome our help, Bush and Co will have proven all the nay sayers to be short sighted fools.

This could be the most brilliant move a president has made in decades.
Time will tell.

[Blackhawk]

My thoughts?

Welcome to the bright side, lendringser! :D

[MitchSchaft]

I share your thoughts. I can't wait to see how this turns out. Now I really wish I made it through bootcamp 2 years ago. :o

[Blackhawk]

If the Iraqi people thank us and welcome our help, Bush and Co will have proven all the nay sayers to be short sighted fools.
Just saw a couple of GIs cutting and tearing down a huge photo of Saddam. A 25ish Iraqi ran up there with his sandal in hand and proceeded to whack Saddam's nose repeatedly. He then turned around, smiled full face into the camera, put his sandal back on and walked off.

Obvious joy, disdain, and an "up yours Saddam" attitude. These people will be very jubilant upon being liberated just as Smoker on TFL predicted.

PS, anybody know if Smoker made it over here to THR?

[Quartus]

If the Iraqi people thank us and welcome our help


Aye, there's the rub. If.


I'm not making any predictions of failure. OTOH, I do remember that the majority of them are Muslims, and WE still support Israel.


'Twould not be the first time we helped someone and got bitten for our troubles.


I hope you are right, lendringser.

[rock jock]

When we depose Saddam and install a pro-US, pro-democracy government, we will have secured base rights smack-dab in the middle of the powder keg, right next door to all the trouble makers.
Fodder for the Colonialists argument. (not that I much care for the opinion of the French). While I do agree that having an Arab ally in the ME would be wonderful, I don't think the surrounding countries would let it happen. Me thinks even the Saudis would oppose an American presence since we would no longer feel the need to prostrate ourselves before them any longer.

[Sergeant Bob]

I may have underestimated the Bush administration...

There are a whole lot of people who underestimate the Bush administration, mostly Liberals. It is one of there main failings. They've been doing it for his entire term. He uses a tactic they are not prepared for....he does what he says he's going to do.
I think if anyone can pull this thing off, it will be Bush.

[critter]

I have always thought that Pres. Bush was really good at surrounding himself with top-notch people. They are doing a good job.

I absolutely LOVED the move of blowing up the place where S. Hussain and his cronies were making plans! Regardless of who or how many were killed or wounded by this move, SH HAS to be a very nervous dude right now! He KNOWS he can be found (and has always been ultimately paranoid!) and he can't use his cell phone, computer or anything or we will bust him again-IF he is still alive. I LOVE IT!

Go for it guys, do it, get it over with soon and come home safe!

[Atticus]

I agree 100% - IF - we are able to get the Israelis and the Palestinians to make a genuine effort to make peace.

[Blackhawk]

As a trained military pilot, Bush understands the concept called "target of opportunity."

[Sindawe]

I concur with your assesments lendringser. If Mr. Bush can pull this off, including the post war reconstruction of the parts of Iraq we've broken, it'll be a foreign relations coup of major proportions.

[55645]

I believe you meant to say "misunderestimated".

[BobK]

Ya' gotta LOVE them Texans! I sincerely hope that, when the
TRUTH about France's involvement with Iraq comes out,we will
humiliate them publicly as well as boycott them for good! Let
them sink or swim on their own!

Jocko Chirac is already back pedalling to save his _ss! They never were our allies.........and should never be again. We don't
need them! If Saddam wants asylum ......How about France? At
least he will be with his own kind!

Everybody else jumps on the bandwagon to take the credit............... those spineless bastards! Speaking of spineless
bastards...........does anybody care what ACTORS think. Where
but California, would these losers have a high paying career...................for playing "make believe"?
:what: :what:

[jmbg29]

I may have underestimated the Bush administration... What Blackhawk said.;) :p :D

[Blackcloud6]

Also, Arab leaders will think twice before supporting terrorists or trying to go against the US. The precedent will be set for us to go get 'em.

[Hkmp5sd]

One thing I like is this will give other nations serious pause to contemplate actions against the US. For 8 years, Clinton allowed bin Laden to operate and did nothing more than lob a few cruise missiles at empty tents. Saddam kicked out the weapons inspectors and Clinton did nothing. The Taliban, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Egypt and Syria allowed terrorists to operate from their lands and even aided them with information and weapons.

Thanks to Bush, the Taliban are history, Pakistan is a somewhat ally, bin Laden, if alive, is on a camping trip deep in a cave somewhere and Iraq will soon be a US base.

Think Iran would take the US embassy hostage with this president in office? Think Syria is going to aid bin Laden with the chance this president may learn of it?

BTW, the hollywood crowd has commented that if Clinton were still in office, he wouldn't allow this illegal war to be taking place and screwing up the Academy Awards ceremony scheduled for Sunday. And apparently, the hollywood types don't trust Saddam and his supporters....seems armored limos are a hot item for Sunday night.

[BobK]

Not only the Arabs........North Koreans, Chinese,French,Germans,
Russians, and Mexicans too!

[Billll]

Someone who writes better than I do remarked that it was amazing how Bush had grown in office. At the beginning of the term, he was a moron with a room-temp IQ, two years later he was "the evil genius behind the collapse of the Democratic party, now, he's being hailed by the Iraqis as "planet lord".

A Mark Twain line comes to mind: "When I was 17, my old man was the dumbest person to walk the face of the earth. I was amazed at how much he improved in the next 3 years."

[El Tejon]

We are no longer an army of lions lead by a deer.

We no longer enjoy the luxury of delaying. The Middle East is God's Monkey House. It is time we cleaned it just as Europe.

There are snakes a plenty, Syria, the Saudi Royal Family, East FrootLoopistan, inter alia. Let us hope our leaders have a vision of a path to ensure that the Middle East makes the 14 century leap into the present.

[bad_dad_brad]

Lendringser,

A good point. A solid democratic Iraqi U.S. client state would be a huge coup in that area. For sure, Iraq is not Islamic fundamentalist, and the people of Iraq are so beaten down by Saddam, that a little American money, some Coca Cola, get some Guess jeans in there, and open a few McDonalds, and that just might make the difference.

I always felt that in every human being on earth, there is an American inside. Why is America great? Freedom . . . plain and simple. Especially economic freedom within the rule of law of course.

[publius]

Back when we were arming Saddam and encouraging him in his war against Shiites in his own country and across the border in Iran, securing a friendly Arab base most likely seemed like a good idea.

But our puppet turned on us, as most of them seem to do. Saddam just joined a long and distinguished list, including Castro, Noriega, and Osama. Eventually, Hamed Karzai (the dictator we installed in Afghanistan after liberating that country, in case you forgot) will turn on us, followed shortly thereafter by whichever Sunni dictator we install as our puppet after we liberate Iraq.

I misunderestimated Bush as well. My expectations were so dismally low, he's been a hugely pleasant surprise to me. I don't care how much of a misunderstood genius the man may be, though, I'll believe he can impose our style of freedom on people who don't want it (or us) when I see it.

[Boats]

We liberated France, look what that got us for gratitude. . . .:rolleyes:

[Hkmp5sd]

Check out what this US soldier has to say about France and Germany! :)

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,252167,00.jpg


WARNING: Parental descretion is advised before viewing.

[Bainx]

yet the same "conservative-republican" white house fought, with everything they had, the issue of arming the pilots!

How come?

How come?:confused:

[BigG]

You want a little Grey Poupon with that crow? :neener:

[TallPine]

You want a little Grey Poupon with that crow?

I know that's just a joke, but I have great respect for lendsringer. He had serious misgivings about this war, as I did, but he is man enough to admit that it might turn out for the best.

And neither one of us went out and rioted in protest... :)

And once the war started ... no need to speak out against it - we are there and need to get the job done right. I do hope it turns out well for both the US and the Iraqi people in the long run.

[BigG]

Hey we all make mistakes. It's just very few have the character to fess up.

[Monkeyleg]

Lendsringer, months back I suggested that the GW "strategery" was to get Saddam to go into exile. That may or may not have happened, depending upon which "exile" route he took.

But the Republican Guard troops are beginning to fold. We had the massive bombings today, without large civilian losses being reported, and without the 3,000 cruise missiles per hour that had been predicted.

And we are not yet (repeat: yet) in a Viet Nam situation. In fact, it looks like we may be welcomed by the Iraqi populace.

Underestimate Bush all you want. Everybody else has done it, and then had to fold their cards.

GW dumb? Oh, yeah...:)

[Waitone]

There are those who say Reagan's star wars program defeated the USSR.

Others say it was Reagan's defense buildup that defeated the USSR.

Some say it was the Catholic church in Poland that started the rock rolling downhill in Eastern Europe which eventuated in the collapse of the USSR.

I think it was West German TV broadcasting reruns of "Dallas" which were viewed in East Germany.

The presence of a democratically elected Arabic state smack in the middle of the 8th century middle east will cause major social problems. The ability of democratically elected republics to convert natural resources into wealth at all levels of society will doom theocratic Islam.

The key to success is a democratically elected republic. It happened in Turkey, it can happen in Iraq.

I hope our success continues. I wish the Iraqi's much success. They have the most to gain.

[Sven]

The key to success is a democratically elected republic. It happened in Turkey, it can happen in Iraq.

Ah... but the military isn't elected in Turkey, and when the government gets out of hand (from their standpoint)... in comes the Turkish military.

[aikidoka-mks]

Its nice to come here and see these adult discussions after hearing 2 people at work over the last week or so say they hate this country. Not that they just disagree with this war but that America is a terrible country. One guy said 80% of Americans could not pass a G.E.D. Then how about this from someone online who hates President Bush:

" Too bad that someone who can balance the budget, start peace in the middle east and have time to cheat on his wife and get a blowjob in the oval office CAN'T come back."

Apparently they meant that as a compliment about Clinton and then go on to shred President Bush for destroying our standing in the world by not working with the other nations and failing at diplomacy.

Im nervous about how much we can accomplish in Iraq but the alternative - leaving Saddam in power is far far worse. If anyone can achieve the foreign policy coup of changing Iraq so fundamentally, it is this administration. Lets just make sure a liberal/socialist doesnt get in office later and mess it up.

Mark

[ahadams]

While I'm one of those conservative Christian types who firmly believes that President Bush was "born for such a time as this", and I realize that phrase will turn off about half the readers I'm willing to risk it for the political reality of what follows.

The essential truth is that we have leverage in Turkey, Jordan, and to a far lesser extent Egypt. If we end up having leverage in Iraq too, we will effectively be able to counter any future 'osama bin hoohaa's and contain them in their own areas.

In other words lendsringeringer, you're right!

Oh, and hkmp5sd: wouldn't it be fun if somebody launched one or more RPG-7(v)'s into one of those armored limos...er unless of course your one of the poor joes playing security that night...?

[Giant]

The populace of Iraq will welcome the US and joyfully step into the 21st century as a free Republic, a free nation.

The young man pounding upon the poster of Sodamn Insane was not merely pounding on the poster, in that part of the world showing another the bottom of ones sandal is a hugh insult. Good for sandal man, his smile will spread across the entire country.

Giant

[jmbg29]

We are no longer an army of lions lead by a deer.I have Klinton pegged as more of a "Judas Goat".

[Cal4D4]

Did anyone else reflux a bit when Chirac hit the EU podium insisting US not have a significant voice in the Iraq rebuilding? Alot of gall in that Gaul. Nice segue to having the Kurdish rep (Prime Minister?) saying how since France chose to back a tyrant and dictator over the Iraqi people, perhaps France had no business in the future of Iraq. Please make it true!

[trooper]

Ah... but the military isn't elected in Turkey, and when the government gets out of hand (from their standpoint)... in comes the Turkish military.

Too true. If it weren't for the military and its influence on the Turkish government, Turkey would already be an islamic state such as Saudi Arabia.

The example of Algeria (and Egypt, to a lesser extent) shows that today's middle-eastern people would mostly vote for islamic parties if they have the chance.

Therefore, if you install a true democracy in Iraq it won't be pro-US for long. If you install a lasting pro-US government it won't be democratically legitimized.


Regards,

Trooper

[Marko Kloos]

Therefore, if you install a true democracy in Iraq it won't be pro-US for long. If you install a lasting pro-US government it won't be democratically legitimized.

You underestimate the coercive power of Levi's, Coca-Cola, uncensored news and Internet access, and free speech without fear of ending up in a torture cell.

They may vote themselves an anti-US government again after a few years, but then again, they may not. Without Saddam, the Iraqis have the potential for wealth and living quality equal to the Kuwaitis and Saudis. SInce he came to power in 1978, Saddam has squandered the national wealth on unwinnable wars and the personal fortunes of himself and his cronies. Let the Iraqis reap the wealth of their own resources, and you may be surprised to see that the Iraqis prefer the 21st century to the 11th.

[Sean Smith]

If you look back, people have been underestimating Bush Part Deux (note ironic use of French! :neener: ) for as long as he's had a political career. Ann Richards underestimated him, and got spanked. Every Democrat in Texas underestimated him, and got spanked. Al Gore got spanked (fat, unshaven & unemployed... insert Democrat joke here). The entire Democratic party got spanked. Afghanistan got spanked. And now Iraq is getting the state-of-the-art in beatdowns.

Notice a pattern? ;)

As an ex-MI officer, let me give everyone some higher-order, multi-phasic, info-vasion insight into modern warfare in the 21st century: when the locals are cheering you (which has already happened in the towns we've taken over), and the unwashed offspring of unreconstructed California hippies are booing you, you are almost certainly doing the right thing. :D

[trooper]

You underestimate the coercive power of Levi's, Coca-Cola, uncensored news and Internet access, and free speech without fear of ending up in a torture cell.

We shouldn't confuse western products with western values. There are a lot of people all over the world who wear jeans, eat at their local McDonalds, go to Hollywood movies while at the same time dismiss our western views of human rights and individual freedom and propose confucian/islamic/whatever virtues instead.

This kind of lifestyle is just the surface. We have to accept the fact that there are a lot of people who simply don't want to be like us, no matter how much they would objectively benefit from it.

When the Warszaw Pact collapsed some people proposed the "end of history", a point where everybody on our planet would accept those "obviously superior" western values. They were soon proven wrong when the formerly bipolar world fell apart into a whole lot of regional conflicts that were rooted in newfound nationalism and religious fanatism.

In the long run people (given they have a choice) will almost always base their decisions upon their own ethnical and cultural background. The result may be pro-US or not, but it will not be based on "western" values but on the beliefs and interests of that particular group.

While we prefer a society based upon freedom and individual liberties, some guys would rather have it divided into castes, or grant rights only to men, or enjoy 72 virgins in paradise after deceasing, or whatever. To them, those beliefs are inevitably stronger than the Bill of Rights and will always be.


Regards,

Trooper

[12-34hom]

I'll second Tallpines comment.

12-34hom.

[Cal4D4]

It is truly amazing how things evolve. With the flawed advice of perhaps C.Powell and company, Bush Sr. left the butcher of Bagdad in power with helicopters and armor which he used to regain power post Desert Storm by brutally crushing all the rebellions we encouraged. With the advice of C. Powell we sought the support of the UN to head off Saddam's continuing ambitions in the region. This could have turned out disasterous if our elections and timing had been only a little different. Bush Sr. in retrospect (always 20/20) was an enabler of one of the more brutal regime's currently on the playing field. Junior's resolve and vision is manifested in his statement "I will accept nothing less than victory". I notice the news media is no longer evoking any of their old Viet Nam era ghosts.

[Hkmp5sd]

You can't really blame Bush Sr. for not taking Saddam out in 1991. The UN force lead by the US had the mission to eject Iraq from Kuwait. It was not the intent of that force to go to Bagdad and kill Saddam.

Bush did what was necessary. If you recall, the Iraqi troops were running for the border and there was the road of death with bombed out vehicles and dead bodies all over the place. The media was already starting to comment on how we were slaughtering unarmed troops that wanted nothing but to go home. They did try to extend it as long as possible so they could either destroy the Republican Guard and at least destroy their equipment.

[Cal4D4]

Hkmp5sd:

I bow my head in apology to Bush Sr. I had completely forgotten to include the influence of the UN in my thinking. They certainly wear the mantle for Saddam's actions post '91.

edited to add..."Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." (I wish I could write that in French)

[aikidoka-mks]

It is interesting to hear people say out of one side of their mouth that Saddam is our fault because we didnt finish the fight the first time and then say we should not do it now because we must subordinate our interests (in this case our safety) to other countries. Hello! - that is why the butcher is still in power - we listened to other countries then.

Mark

[Quartus]

We shouldn't confuse western products with western values.


Whoa! People, you had better listen carefully to that statement. Too many good people are making the mistake Trooper is warning about. Many peoples want our products, but want NOTHING to do with our values!


Get that right or get it all wrong!

[Gary H]

I don't know why any of you were looking at this from just one angle. All you have to do is know who we are fighting in this war on terror and pull out a map of the Middle East. Political correctness aside.. we are doing what we must do.

If we fail to act, our grandchildren will be fighting this war.

[riverdog]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_197994,00120002.htm is a great read delineating justification for removing Saddam. He/Iraq may have had nothing to do with 9/11, but this action is about preventing future 9/11's, not vengeance for the WTC. I'll leave it with the final paragraph.
quote:
"Bush is taking on an enormous task and even greater risk. Toppling Hussein pales in comparison to the decision to modernise Islam. As Hadley said in a speech, “This is an awesome responsibility. When future scholars look back on the history of the Middle East in the early part of the 21st century, I hope that they don’t ask ‘what went wrong?’ but instead ask ‘Why did it go right?"
unquote

[Hard Charger]

If the new Iraq government remains loyal to it's liberator.

[MeekandMild]

If the Iraqi people thank us and welcome our help, Bush and Co will have proven all the nay sayers to be short sighted fools. If? IF? There are well over a half million Iraqi refugees in surrounding countries waiting to return home when the dust settles. I would think most of them have family and friends who will be eager to have them home. That is a lot of thank yous.

[Sodbuster]

No comment.

[publius]

<Blazing Saddles scene>
Quartus Johnson is right about Trooper Johnson being right.
</Blazing Saddles>