[GunGoBoom]

Looking for a 24 or 26" upper in .223 for serious varminting out to about 300 yards, AND target work to 600 yards or so, but I know almost nothing about these, so have some questions, if you'd be so kind as to fill me in on the basics:

1. Where should I look / which do you recommend for such an upper?
2. How much should I expect to pay for one?
3. Would I use the same bolt/carrier, or do I need a different one for max. accuracy? If the former, what specifics steps to I need to take to check headspacing? If the latter, how much more $ for custom bolt?
4. Do I want a 24 or 26" bbl? Does anyone even offer a 26" bbl? I think I'd prefer 26.
5. Do I want stainless or carbon steel?
6. I want it in 1 in 7" twist, for 77/80/90 gr loadings. Who offers this?
7. If I picked up one at a gun show, what do I look for / what questions to ask?
8. Any other pitfalls or things to be cautious of buying?
9. I assume that I don't want a barrel marked 5.56 because this would mean it doesn't have the tighter match .223 rem chamber - am I correct in this assumption?
10. Would I be better off money-to-results-wise (value) just getting a turnbolt or single shot? I could really care less about the semi-auto aspects - my goal is simply to get into a really accurate .223 with a 1 in 7 twist for the cheapest $$ possible, and given the fact that I currently have an AR. Does anyone even offer a single shot or turnbolt for less $ than another upper with a 1 in 7 twist? (I kinda doubt it). The Savage 12 BV is 1 in 9 twist, and that's fine for 68-70, but it ain't gonna cut it for 77gr bullets and up.
11. Any other wisdom you can share for those who have been there/done it/ got the souvenir spoon?

Thanks!

[dakotasin]

custom barrel...

call krieger, and order up your barrel. -or-
if you want the name of a 'smith that can build you damned fine ar upper to your specs for about the same price as a new upper, drop me a pm.

as far as your distance questions... i am a long range shooter. i have no troubles knocking off prairie dogs w/ the first shot to 450-ish yards thru my 16" ar w/ 60 grain pills. i have no trouble staying under 1.5 minute of angle to 600 yards w/ the same gun/load... i haven't taken the ar to 1000 yet because i have a couple other rifles in front of it that i'm working to 1000 w/.

remember, shorter barrels are stiffer. stiffer is more consistent. more consistent is more accurate. length does not help the shooter using a scope as far as accuracy goes - in fact, it may hurt. length will get you an increase in velocity - though i do not know how much in the 223. i am running just under 3000 f/s w/ my 16" 60's right now - maybe someone w/ a similiar load and a longer barrel can reveal their velocity. however, it takes enough start-up velocity to stay supersonic to 1000.

stainless has been showing a tendency to be more accurate than carbon - however, unless your shooting and tecnique are really refined - meaning you can hang w/ the serious br shooters - you'll never see the difference. 'sides, a stainless barrel looks funny on an ar...

[GunGoBoom]

Ok, thanks. Yes, I'm thinking carbon steel; no my skill is nowhere near that good at this point, to tell the difference. Yes, I understand shorter barrels are better for accuracy, due to stiffness, but I wanted something pretty long just to max out the velocity, at the expense of a *slight* amount of accuracy, which I'm willing to accept. Still, 24 my be a better tradeoff point - I dunno. Interesting that you can hit PDs at 450 on the first shot with 16" bbl and 60 grainers (with what optics?), and I would use something in that range myself for varmints. If that was all I was going to do with the rifle (varmints), then I'd just get the Savage with 1 in 9 and be done with it. But I want it to ALSO try for max accuracy at 600 or maybe even 1000 for spits and giggles, and possibly compet. if I get the bug, and so I want to maximize wind-bucking ability (very windy around here), and also, though slightly less important that wind-bucking, maximize BC for those ranges. So I have decided I must have a 1 in 7 twist for 77/80s and up to suit my curiosity for this experimentation/fun. I know that getting something like a Savage or Remington and rebarreling it with a 1 in 7 bbl would be more expensive in the long haul than a good AR upper, though probably slightly more accurate. But since ARs are capable of quite good accuracy with good free floated bbls and whatnot, I figure that would suit my purposes for *pretty darn fine accuracy* for less money than the former.

So, maybe a Kreiger barrel, but they don't sell the other upper components I need, like the upper receiver with rail, free-floated handguard, etc.? So am I going to be better off buying the components separately to get the best value barrel, or should I look for a package deal to suit my needs (on a budget)? Remember, I'm very newbish on this issue (just got the AR - my first -the other day) - do you have any website links for me to click around on to start to get an idea of what I should be looking for?

[dakotasin]

ok, i'm going to defer to those more experienced w/ the ar than myself. here's my conjectures, though:

if you want a 26" barrel, then you should get it. if you compromise, you will forever be wondering and disappointed, no matter how well the gun turns out... ie, make sure you get what you want. no need to compromise in this day and age of easily accessible and relatively inexpensive customs and such.

my carbine is equipped w/ a leupold vx-3 lrt 6.5-20x50, 30mm tube, side focus. i am an optics fanatic... i put this gun together as a varminter/coyote killer...

living on the prairie, i know a thing or two about wind, so can appreciate your wanting to buck the wind... however, my opinion is that for ultimate wind bucking, something in the 7mm class is a far superior choice... also, in an ar, most bullets around 77 grains, or more, is gonna have to be single-loaded, i believe. i don't know that to be fact, but i do know that my 60 grainers run so far into the case that it seriously impedes powder capacity - and anything much bigger (like the 90's and such) will probably have to be loaded too long to fit the mag in order to get velocity up - single load.

not sure about your expense comments... let's break it down, in rough terms... a donor gun/action (remington 700/721/722) can be had for ~$300. a custom barrel made, and installed for roughly ~$450... then, stocking a remington will be anywhere from free to $500 - could run more if you require really high end wood, or free if you either salvage the existing stock, or get a take-off from someone else... so, let's say you're into the thing for $800, before optics and such (which would be needed on an ar, as well)... compare that to an ar upper like you are talking about, and i'd bet you'll be close enough to same/same that the difference would be insignificant.

yes, ar's can shoot w/, and even better than bolt guns... just depends on individual guns and shooters. but, a bolt gun is easier to squeeze accuracy out of, and much more inexpensive to get top-end accuracy out of (because so much of the work is easily accomplished yourself)... just depends how far you want to go, eg diminishing returns.

if you want to pursue this w/ an ar, if it were me, i think i would get a new complete upper, and send it off for custom barreling - or if you are comfy enough to do it yourself, just order the barrel and diy...

anyway, that's about as much as i know...

i wouldn't dismiss the bolt gun, unless you just want an ar - in which case, like i said before, don't compromise, get what you want.

[GunGoBoom]

Ok, thanks a lot - that gives me a lot to chew on, esp the part about about loading long bullets and limiting powder capacity - and you want a little freebore before it engages the rifling as well, so you can have it too far out. I'm not concerned about single loading, but am concerned if OAL problems limit the performance I want, either because of powder capacity or lack of freebore in the throat. I'm not going to dismiss out of hand the bolt gun option with custom bbl instead....thanks again.

[dakotasin]

i ain't skeered of engaging the rifling hard... do it on a few of my bolt guns. wouldn't do it on an ar because it would be a nuisance if the bullet got stuck (mere annoyance w/ a bolt gun, not a nuisance... nuisance is worse).

however, i've never loaded to the lands w/ an ar - i just load to fit the mag because i don't care to single load one.

hopefully somebody who competes w/ an ar can add a few pennies - they'd be better versed w/ heavy bullets.

[Jim Watson]

I put my money where my mouth is... I just today ordered a 28" Kreiger AR Varmatch with the 6.5" twist that Sierra recommends for their 90 grain MK. I will send in my upper for installation, I have a flattop that has been shot once this year and did not look like getting out of the house again anytime soon, so a new barrel will give me what amounts to a new rifle as far as my shooting goes. Well, I will want to put an adjustable trigger in it, and it will have to have a nicer scope, and a Bob Sled, and a case deflector. It will amount to a self ejecting single shot rifle because I will only shoot it in Long Range F-Class. I have a pretty good .22-250 to shoot at varmints.

I went with rebarreling the AR because I do not have the contacts and references to get a bolt action done from scratch in a reasonable time.

I think you should take Dakotasin up on his reference for a gunsmith; you will not find what you want over the counter, it will have to be built.

[GunGoBoom]

I put my money where my mouth is... I just today ordered a 28" Kreiger AR Varmatch with the 6.5" twist that Sierra recommends for their 90 grain MK

:what: Woo hoo!

"Like Jim; I wanna be like Jim!" :)