[J Miller]

Today I called S&W. I wanted some information about getting my 81 vintage 25-5 repaired, and maybe a new cylinder installed.
I told the man in the service department what was wrong with my gun. He listened and we discussed it.
Before I tell you what the result of our conversation was, let me tell you what is wrong with my gun.
First, let me tell you, it has digested over 6500 rounds of factory equivalent or better rounds, mostly double action.

The hole in the frame that the cylinder center pin locks into has worn into an egg shape. The bolt the ejector rod locks onto has worn till it has excessive side to side movement. And the recess at the end of the ejector rod has also become worn.
This has allowed some side play in the crane and cylinder assembly. It's not causing problems yet, but eventually it will. If you lay the gun on it's left side and cycle the action normally it won't lock up. But if you hold it upright, or on it's right side, or if you hold the crane shut it pretimes nicely, so it's not out of time.
Also the cylinder has grosly oversized chamber throats. I have fought barrel and throat leading since this thing was new. I was hoping for maybe a new cylinder.
Now if I can find a GOOD gunsmith, all of these worn points can be fixed. And a new cylinder can be fitted even if I have to find a .44 cylinder and have it rechambered.

But S&W says, NO new cylinders, NO replacement frames and we CAN'T fix the old one. So your gun is junk. That is almost a verbatim quote.
My gun is junk. :mad:

At this point I'm about to trade it for a Ruger Redhawk in .45 Colt. I am so discusted with S&W it's not funny. The only thing stopping me is that the Redhawk is bigger than I want, and isn't available in a 4" barrel. The S&W 25-5 is just right for what I use it for. And of course it isn't made anymore.
Purty please don't anybody suggest a Taurus, please don't.

Now I have to start hunting for a real gunsmith that will listen to me, and do what I want, and ONLY what I want. I might as well try to teach my cat to surf the web.

[VictorLouis]

customer rep be taken as gospel!:rolleyes: Call back, and if it's obvious you've gotten another person to speak with, be patient and courteaous in explainging the problem(s). THEN let us know what happened.

Sorry, I can't help with any gunsmith suggestions in your area. However, if the center-pin hole in the breechface is truly that worn, I don't think there would be a fix for it.

[Standing Wolf]

If all else fails, you might try the Standing Wolf approach: "I'd like to speak with your supervisor."

At least 50% of the time, I never have to speak with a supervisor: the very idea that a customer might escalate the conversation miraculously produces the needed results.

[PaulS]

I wonder if you will get any more satisfaction with S&W than I did when I asked the new mgnt if they were going to undo what the old owners did to spit on their customers. They told me that the new owners did not want the publicity of trying to take back the agreement made by the former company owners.

I say they have turned their backs on us and I have turned my back on them!

JMiller,
I have fired tens of thousands of rounds through my Ruger Security Six and it is as tight as ever. I use 140 and 158 grain bullets behind H110. three years in Hunter's pistol competition and 30 years of fun and hunting. Drop the S&W in the mail back to them with a bill for the postage and buy a Ruger - They work to keep their customers satisfied!

PaulS

[J Miller]

VictorLouis,
This is the third time I have called S&W about this problem.
The first time I called a service center in AZ. Their comment was send the gun $200.00 and they would rebuild it with a new frame. I should have taken them up on that. But I didn't want "a new gun", and I did't have $200.00.
The second time was just after the agreement made so much trouble for the previous owners. They wouldn't give me any help with it either.
Then the third time was today. So it's not as if this were my first try.
As for the center pin hole, I once talked to a gunsmith in Phoenix who said he could put a bushing in it. But he has some guy doing the revolver work now that I don't care for. So someone with some ambition can fix this thing. I just have to find them.


PaulS,
I completly agree with you reguarding the agreement deal. But I like this revolver, and since I can't redily replace it I will try for all I'm worth to get it fixed.

I have never fired a Redhawk. But someday I will, and I just may buy one. But they are bigger than the 25-5, and not as handy. Plus if I want a 4" barrel I'd have to have it custom shortened. I don't really want the expence or trouble for that. So I'm back to square one. Find me a gunsmith with skill and ambition.
I have one in mind, but he's a good 2 hour drive North of me. It will be some time before I can afford to go up and see him.

[SRYnidan]

Give the folks at cylinder and slide a try. Bill Laughridge does pretty good work and is also a S&W Warrenty shop.

[Kentucky Rifle]

Call S&W customer service and ask for *Kate Fredette*. Be very nice and calmly explain your problem. (You can ask her about the man who said that your "gun is junk".)
I'll bet that she says "send it in".

KR

[blowsomethingup]

this is the problem with most companies today,once they get your money,they could care less about your satisfaction.they have the resources to machine new parts for you,but they wont make any money for the share holders so your sol.
trade the gun in and get a brand which takes care of you,I would never return to a company who gave me service like that.

[Sir Galahad]

It's not necessarily the company's fault. You can blame a growing generation of rude jerks raised by parents who don't believe in discipline. Remember all the screaming brats in stores and restaurants that parents never, ever spanked or even raised their voice to even when the kids were telling mom and dad to "f" off? Yep, those kids grow up and find jobs. Yes, these people find employment in the strangest of places. Like customer service. Call and ask to speak to a supervisor. Call the main plant, not a warranty service center. Sometimes, the main plant isn't aware of things going on at warranty service centers unless you call and tell them. Like one service center for the manufacturer where I work that's been giving customers a hard time. We didn't know it until a customer called to tell us.

[J Miller]

Sir Galahad,
Please dispatch a couple of dragons to Illinois. One to the State building in Chicago,(Daley's office), and one to the Governors residence where ever he is. I'm sure no self respecting dragon would eat these two vermin, but maybe they could scare the :what: out of them. After that, please have them do a fly over at the State Capital while the legislature is in session.

Actually I did call the main S&W plant. I was treated with respect during the entire conversation. The only thing I didn't appreciate was being told my gun was junk. It isn't. It's just seen a lot of use and needs repair.
Anywho, Kentucky Rifle suggested above that I call back and talk to Kate Fredette. So I will do that. I suspect that my gun will remain unfixed, but I will make the effort to call again.

blowsomethingup,
I have decided to not purchase anything that S&W makes. I just want to get my current one fixed. If any other gun maker made something equivilent I'd probably check them out. But nobody does. There are several makes of .45 Colt DA revolvers, but none that match the size and ballance of the S&W 25-5 4".

SRYnidan,
I'll give C&S a call as soon as I have called S&W again. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Mike Irwin]

All of that can be fixed by a competent shop.

The cylinder locking stud hole can easily be fixed with a bushing, or have metal added through welding and then be recut. It's not cheap, but it's doable.

Everything is you describe is relatively minor.

Cylinders are available, but are expensive.

By "bolt" the ejector rods locks on to, I'm thinking you mean the stud under the barrel?

Easily replacable with a new spring loaded locking pin.

I'm CERTAIN that Cylinder and Slide can do all of this work, quickly, and probably more reliably and with better quality than anyone else.

[J Miller]

Mike Irwin,

Thanks for the additional info. I have talked to one gunsmith in Phoenix about this and he mentioned the bushing in the frame too. So I know it can be fixed. I'd call him back but he has since taken an employee that is working on the revolvers. And I don't care for this guy. Hence my search.

Yes the "bolt" is the spring loaded stud under the barrel. I believe I saw it called a bolt in a S&W exploded drawing.

I think I will give C&S a call.

I have lived with the cylinder for 20+ years, so I can ignor it some more if I have too. But I would really like to get the other problem fixed.

[blowsomethingup]

how about looking for a parts gun at shows,are they that rare to find?I own newer firearms so I dont have these problems yet.but its a shame to have a small part worn that makes the firearm unsuitable to shoot,very frustrating.hope you find a solution.

[HSMITH]

6500 rounds is just a start, unless you were running all "ruger only" loads in it that is WAAAAAYYYYYY early for problems like you are having. I would have a dealer send it in and complain of looseness. Nothing more in the description, just loose.

[Robert inOregon]

Average cost for a person to run a lathe or milling machine is $75 an hour. Gunsmithing cost are running about the same. What S&W is trying to explain is all the time that will be invested in this firearm at $75 an hour is not worth the value of the gun at their shop. Most well know gunsmiths commanding these higher rates will probably say the same.

Find a hungry local to do the work cheap. Or trade the gun for something else.

There, I didn't say junk.

[Poohgyrr]

I can add my two cents on some employees knowing things that others don't; not in a bad way.......

I "only" have one PC gun, and it's an autoloader (DPA 5906). Wish I had more of their guns, this one is that good. But before I bought it, I called several times and did find one PC customer service guy that seemed to know everything about it, and answered all of my questions in a real meaningful way. The rest weren't bad, they just didn't know much about it.

As much as I like Smith revolvers, it's too bad Colt has had so much trouble over the years. They would be a natural to offer a good 4" .45 revolver.

[Kentucky Rifle]

I think I know the man you talked to and it doesn't surprise me in the least that he called your revolver "junk". He is a "naturally" insulting man. He holds a higher position (I believe) than Kate, but I've had much, MUCH more success with Kate. The man we're speaking of is quite "disconnected" to Smith & Wesson's customers, "full of himself", and a general PITA.

KR

[WESHOOT2]

Wife = S&W M38.
Me = four Redhawks; know what I mean?

C&S........

[Tamara]

Wife = S&W M38.
Me = four Redhawks; know what I mean?

Yeah, your wife is the one with good taste. ;) :neener:

[WhoKnowsWho]

Tamara: LOL! :)

Sorry to hear your troubles J Miller, I would recommend trying to talk to Kate Fredette also, she was the one that quickly responded to my e-mail inquiries about the Walther P22 and simply said send it back and we will fix it. Though we never did, (9 rounds works fine, 10 doesn't, go figure...) And she is also the one that said if I have anything wrong with my old Model 37, they would try their best to fix it right up.

[WESHOOT2]

And I picked the M38..........:neener:

[WESHOOT2]

Wife is reason I have two GP100's; she took one for IPSC. :what:

[J Miller]

Several members here on The High Road suggested I contact Cylinder and Slide. So this morning I emailed them about this problem. Here is my email, and their reponse.


To Bill Laughridge;

I was recomended to you by a fellow poster at The High Road forum.

I have a S&W 25-5 .45 Colt revolver that needs repair. The factory will not work on it, stating; (without seeing it I might add), "your gun is junk".
I don't want any custom work at this time. For the most part I am satisfied with this old revolver as it is. I just want to find somebody who can do quality repair work on this gun.

The PRIMARY problem is that the central locking system has become worn, and is allowing some side movement of the crane. This has not gotten to a dangerous point yet, but eventually will.
If the gun is held in a vertical position, or on the right side it still pre-times nicely. But if held on it's left side there is enough movement in all the parts to cause it to time up late. Of course if you hold the crane up against the frame it will pre-time.

I have looked at it closely, and here is what I see:
....The cylinder center pin hole in the frame has become egg shaped.
....The cylinder center pin has some play in the extractor.
....The spring loaded plunger under the barrel has what seems to be excessive side to side play, and is worn on the back side.
....The end of the extractor rod is worn on the inside where it mates up to the plunger under the barrel.
.....There is some fore and aft movement to the crane. When held to the rearmost position, there is no movement to the cylinder.
I'm sure that all of these points will normally have some play, but over the years, and thousands of rounds it has increased to the point I am concerned, and worried.

I'm sure all of the worn parts can be replaced, but it is the center pin hole in the frame that seems to cause problems. Several years ago, while I was living in Phoenix a gunsmith mentioned he could put a bushing in that spot and drill it to the correct sized hole. Others I have mentioned this
to on the forums I frequent, suggested welding up the spot and re-drilling it.
I am not worried about the method of repair, so long as it is a good and permanent repair.

So after saying all of this, my question is; would you be willing to repair this S&W for me?
And how would you suggest going about repairing the worn hole in the frame?

SECONDARY problem. This revolver has a cylinder with throats that are very close to .458". I have fought leading and accuracy problems with this since the day I bought it.
I read in an article by John Taffin that S&W reduced the dimensions in the chambers and throats of the .45 colt cylinder after they did away with the pinned barrel guns.
Would it be possible to acquire one of these newer, closer dimensioned cylinders and fit it to this revolver?
I'm not looking for a custom built cylinder, just a better factory one.

Thanks for your time and answers.


Mr Miller,

It's always nice to hear from a manufacturer that their product is junk :)

The correct fix for your wallowed out center pin hole is a soldered in bushing. As a matter of fact, that is how the S&W factory used to take care of it. You'll notice, on their new alloy frame revolvers, they are using the same technique. You can find that and all the rest of our pistolsmithing options on our web site, www.cylinder-slide.com

SR035 Bush Center Pin Hole in Frame 89.25

Welding is not a good option.

As far as the other needed parts and work to repair all the wear, no problem. We'll need to inspect the pistol first so we can find exactly what
needs to be done.

We can certainly replace the cylinder, if we can find one. We have stainless cylinders, but no blue.

Feel free to let me know if you have any other questions.

Ralph

I like the response I recieved from C&S. So as soon as I get some money put back, I'll give them a hollar and get my gun all fixed up.
J

[Mike Irwin]

J. Miller,

Hey, the bushing work is cheaper than I thought! I was figuring $125.

I agree with them, welding build up isn't the best option, but it's an option that has been done.

[Dash Riprock]

J Miller,

Before you send your gun off, you might want to talk to Oglesby and Oglesby. They are
located in your town. They are primarily known for their work with Ruger single actions,
but I’m sure they could fix your gun. I could not find a website, but you can get the
contact info here: http://www.americanhandgunner.com/Club100.html
I hope this helps.

[J Miller]

Dash Riprock,

I appreciate your suggestions.
I am quite familiar with O&O. I have attempted to communicate with them several times without success. They are an arogent bunch of know it alls, that have told me more dis-information and lies than I can count.

For instance; New Model Ruger Blackhawk cylinders "CANT" be fitted to Old Model Blackhawks. What a crock of ...........!
First of all what the heck does Ruger fit to the OM's that comes in for repairs? I'm sure they are going to stop production of NM's and build an OM cylinder for a repair. Right!!
Second of all I replaced the cyinder in my OM with a NM cylinder and it fit perfectly.

I took a Ruger Super Single Six in to have one of the grip frame screw holes chased out. The previous owner had cross threaded a screw. I bought all new screws and couldn't get one to screw in. Took me two trips to get a screw hole chased out. On the second trip the action felt different. I eventually found out that someone there had cut coils off the main spring WITHOUT my permission.

I won't even waste the effort to punch their number on the phone.

Thanks for trying to help.
Oh, O&O arn't the only gunsmiths in this town that arn't worth the trouble. What can I say?

[yotehunter]

Cylinder and Slide sounds like a company that cares about it customers and will go that extra mile to satisfy.
I have been thinking of having some work done on my 629 and 610 and I now know who im going to contact. Thanks for the update.

[Archie]

Are there any enterprizing gunsmith - machinists who could MAKE new cylinders for old N frame Smiths?

Being one is isn't (I quickly add), it seems like it's a bit of proper steel stock turned to outside diameter and a number of precision holes drilled and reamed. Not to mention the bolt slots milled.

Not as cheap as dirt, by any means, but cheaper than tossing an old style N frame and buying something not as acceptable.

If there were any demand - probably a limited market - one could rough cast the piece and do limited machine finishing.

I suppose it's that "demand" problem that makes it expensive, what?

------------------
It's an offense to Smith, Wesson and the Lord to shoot a S&W revolver single-action!
Archie

[JoeHatley]

J Miller,

The guys at www.cylinder-slide.com worked on 2 of my 25-5s last summer. Nice folks who really asked a lot of good questions before they started work, and keep me informed of progress.

They are not inexpensive, but I feel I got good value for my money. BTW: the my guns were done in just over half the time they originally estimated.

Good Luck...

Joe

[Mike Irwin]

Archie,

A cylinder requires some fairly precise, but not overtly complex, machining.

The true test, however, would be getting it heat treated properly.

[Bullet Bob]

I know it's frustrating, but I would call Kate, just because she has been recommended by someone here.

I had a used model 64 whose firing pin broke; I called S&W, and was upfront about the gun's condition. They sent me a free shipping label, and fixed it for free, even though I stressed that it was a used gun!

[owen]

I know Kate.

Call Kate.

You may also want to try Jeff Whitehouse.

I have trouble beleiving they aren't going to make it right.

Are you the original owner?

Owen

[Robert inOregon]

I have trouble beleiving they aren't going to make it right.

Problem is not them making it right, it the laundry list of problems that does not make any sense fixing this gun. Its not just a $90 bushing. Look at the beginning of the thread, it would cost more than $500 to correct all the problems and the gun is nothing more than a shooter. I have no doubt that this is what S&W was trying to explain and poster doesn't want to listen. The Gun is a Bangor-Punta era firearm that is "shot out" and its time to get a new one. This gun is not covered under the lifetime warranty and the money spent to repair comes out of the owners pocket and not S&W. Company simple does not want to take this gentlemen's money.

[Master Blaster]

Service on firearms is darn good much better than any other high wear product:

Suppose you bought a 1974 buick lesabre and only drove it 30,000 miles. would you call GM now and expect them to fix it free??? or even have parts for it????

How about a 1974 RCA color television you only watched once a month for the last 30 years, think RCA will fix it, after all it cost 3 times what your 25-5 cost new?????

The answer for the above would be sorry thats an obsolete product, we cant help you.

But you can have the gun fixed but it will cost alot to do it.

[Mike Irwin]

"Suppose you bought a 1974 buick lesabre and only drove it 30,000 miles. would you call GM now and expect them to fix it free??? or even have parts for it????"

I wouldn't expect them to fix it for free, but I would expect them to still catalog at least some parts for it.

In fact, they still do.

I can still get Ford OEM parts for my 1977 Maverick.

I wish I still had the Maverick, though...

[Master Blaster]

I can still get Ford OEM parts for my 1977 Maverick.

From Ford, or are they remanufactured, and from an after market soucre?

you can still get OEM parts for a model T, but they are remanufactured or scavenged from junk cars or reproductions.

I guess my point is that gun manufacturers do a pretty good job of servicing what they sell within reason.

[J Miller]

owen / Bullet Bob,
I will call Kate. I just haven't gotten around to it. Been kind of busy.
Yes I am the original, {bought it brand new from a dealer}, owner.

Robert inOregon
You seem to have a burr up your XXX against my 25-5. Why?
Are you a licensed, acreditted, working gunsmith?
If so, then you know, or should know, that you can't diagnose a gun properly without examining it.
Since you haven't done so, I believe you are way off base with your $500.00 guess.
The fact that this is a Bangor Punta gun is irrelivant to this thread.
I get real po'ed when people start telling me that my property isn't worth repairing. That is MY call, not yours.

others
At no time have I stated that I wanted this revolver repaired free.
The only time I mentioned any prices at all was when I quoted the response from Ralph at C&S.
To use the phrase; "make it right" indicates a warrentee problem that has been on going and cronic. In the 21 years I have owned this gun it has been to a gunsmith exactly once. To have a taller front sight installed.
Reguardless of any bodies opinions about S&W, I would say that this gun has, and is provided good service.
It is not "shot out" by any means, just in need of some repairs.
I doubt that your average car or truck would last as long, with as little trouble, and NO breakage as this gun has.

If it hasn't become obvious by now, then I will state this as plain as I can.
I AM GOING TO GET THIS GUN REPAIRED, I AM NOT GETTING RID OF IT!
Yes I mentioned trading it off in my first post, but that came from the frustration of my first talk with the S&W service department.
Since I have a gunsmith that can and will repair it. That comment is nul and void.

To those that have posted helpfull suggestions, I thank you.
To those who have not posted helpfull suggestions, I don't.

J

[Robert inOregon]

J Miller

Your original post stated that there were other mechanical problems with this firearm of which according to your wish list include replacement of the cylinder. Have you investigated basic cost for a cylinder replacement on that particular revolver?? Does not take rocket science to start adding the cost and only requires a price sheet and a calculator.

http://www.cylinder-slide.com/pricing/swrev_tun.htm

bushing $90
shipping $50
cylinder fitting (no cylinder) $100
locking bolt pin and fitting $25

No one is going to sell you a cylinder for under $100 and assume that one is found, gun should be reblued so that it doesn't look hokey. And that will set you back another $110 according to C&S's price sheet. Lets say you don't piecemeal the work and get it done all at once so not to pay $50 every time the gun gets worked on, you're looking at almost $500. Five hundred bucks spent on a firearm that has most likely gone over half its fatigue life.

Yes, you are correct that its your call. I'm just pointing out how foolish such a decision is so that others don't follow the same path. It is a public forum and thus fair game. :neener:

[WESHOOT2]

The S&W in question WILL be fixed, C&S is tops, a cylinder with .458" throats screams out to be replaced, and I think when the gun is "fixed" (might consider some 'menued' enhancements) it will be an awesome shooter/keeper.

Money is obviously NOT an issue; I agree.

Hey, and it ain't even my gun!
I just like the mindset.


(Can fix old cylinder with round file. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ha!)

[J Miller]

Robert inOregon,

You have indeed got a burr up your a$$ about my 25-5. To the extent that you have become fixated on certain details of my original post, and have taken them out of context. Refusing to acknowlege any of the rest of the post, or following posts.
I have indeed checked out the prices. And since there is no gun available on the new market that is a direct replacement to the S&W 25-5, your comments that I should toss mine into the trash heap and buy something else is irrelevant.
As is all of your posts in this thread.

You also seem to believe that you are a superior being that can stand up on your throne and call people names when they refuse to submit to your will. This only causes those of us who live in the real world to conclude that you are pompous, arrogent, and filled with yourself, and therefore to be ignored.

Which is why I will not waste my time reading or responding to any more of your posts.

[Tamara]

This has gone about far enough.

Lights out.