50 year C&R ruling to freeze?


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Gunsnrovers
July 19, 2005, 08:25 PM
On Monday I had a meeting with a local ATF agent to review my C&R license application. Evidently a few aliases came up under my name and there was a conviction involved with one and they wanted to check me out.

The agent was great. Very friendly. We had a nice hour conversation. He did mention one thing that caught my attention.

We are now approaching a time period where M14's and M16's would qualify as C&R weapons. He stated that the BATFE is investigating freezing the rolling 50 year rule because of this. He then backed off and said it was only something he had heard being discussed and was not aware of any offical review or plan.

Something to chew on.

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boofus
July 19, 2005, 08:26 PM
It would be nice to have all those surplus M14s and M16s and M2 carbines put into the CMP and be C&R eligible wouldn't it?

But until the 'no new machineguns' and 'once a MG, always a MG' laws are stricken it won't bloody happen. :(

heypete
July 19, 2005, 08:26 PM
It's not like they'd be available to civilians anyway, due to their full-auto bits.

Would old military M14s and M16s be transferrable under the NFA to C&R holders?

gezzer
July 19, 2005, 08:52 PM
Congress will have to do it ATF can't do that on thier own.

3rdpig
July 19, 2005, 08:58 PM
Isn't it wonderful how the BATFE can create new law by simply changing their rules? First the rule about barrel imports now this. Obviously there's a liberal, anti gunner high in the ranks that's unhappy with the status quo. That or they're protecting their useless jobs.

Gunsnrovers
July 19, 2005, 09:19 PM
I don't know what, if any, impact things would have on the more modern military weapons. I just found the topic curious that it was brought up.

pmcbooks
July 19, 2005, 10:46 PM
That is a strange thing to say. You'd still be up against NFA and 922(o) with select-fire weapons. And you can't create a C&R market by replacing full-auto components with semi-auto because then it's not "in it's original configuration."

There are exceptions to NFA on the C&R list; pistols with shoulder stocks and the like, but that'll never happen with full-auto. That creates a built-in decline of the value of the C&R license as we move into the modern+50 years era.

Maybe he was just trying to get you to say, "gee, good thing I get all my machineguns illegally." :uhoh:

Standing Wolf
July 20, 2005, 12:06 AM
I've got a better idea: let's pull the financial plug on the B.A.T.F.E., put all those federal trough feeders in uniform, and send them out to secure the nation's borders.

Illegal aliens are far more dangerous than gun collectors.

Gewehr98
July 20, 2005, 12:34 AM
I take exception to this:

I've got a better idea: let's pull the financial plug on the B.A.T.F.E., put all those federal trough feeders in uniform, and send them out to secure the nation's borders.

At a tour of an ATF laboratory not too long ago, I saw many things that Joe Citizen would be happy to pay a Federal Agency to work on. Hardly the jackbooted thuggery one would expect from what people post here at THR.

One was bomb evidence from the Unabomber case, including parts and pieces of devices he never had the chance to finish and deploy. I'm sure Standing Wolf thinks the time spent on this case was a blatant example of federal tax dollars run amok. Oh, the horror.

Another was a vengeful ex-husband who assembled a car bomb using smokeless powder and a road flare, that was tripped when the ex-wife's car started rolling. Luckily, she smelled something hot burning and got out to see the can of IMR4895 torching the floorpan of the car under the driver's seat. The forensic examiner wasn't wearing a SWAT ninja outfit, and he wasn't outfitting himself for a no-knock raid. Still, by gosh, we should cut him loose, give him a uniform, and make him watch the border. You betcha.

Another ATF employee was taking bottles of whiskey and bourbon, and running them through a Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer. Why? To make certain that what you buy and drink matches what's stated on the label, and doesn't contain things that don't belong there, like methanol (wood alcohol). He also checks samples of wine for nitrites and nitrates. Yup, just another evil jackbooted thug, feeding at the government trough. Border patrol duty for him.

The more I read stuff like what was posted in this thread, the more I think I'll take my forensics training and degree and give the ATF a return call. It has to be a kick in the pants milling about when folks are badmouthing your agency, and they ask you why you're politely smiling...

Oh, yeah - I'd truly hate to be a moderator here. :scrutiny:

Sunray
July 20, 2005, 12:38 AM
"...'once a MG, always a MG' laws..." That's not a law. It's ATF policy. They make law, by regulation. Their forms you are required to fill in is defacto registration too.

MICHAEL T
July 20, 2005, 12:56 AM
I am so glad the ATF is doing those fine things. Now find them a uniform and give them a box of donuts a send them to the border. A B.A.T.F. agent is some one to afraid to steal for a living and not smart enough to be a real LEO. I guess you could retrain them and send to the airports once the borders are taken care of.You see I don't belive we need all these Federal Cops. :D

thatguy
July 20, 2005, 12:59 AM
Why would they be more concerned about M16s than they are about Thompsons, Stens, MP40s and all the other MGs already over 50 years old and considered C&R?

If an MG is C&R does that mean it doesn't need to be transferred through a Class III dealer? You still need to pay the federal transfer tax, right?

Zundfolge
July 20, 2005, 02:02 AM
I saw many things that Joe Citizen would be happy to pay a Federal Agency to work on.

All those things could be done by (and are for the most part being done by) other agencies ... then you could go to work with one of them with a relatively clean continence :p

I would like to see the BATFE eliminated or at least restructured to have their ability to create Federal law out of thin air taken away from them.

The problem is that they are in charge of enforcing rules they created ... there is no accountability.

The FBI (for example) just investigates violations of established law ... they don't get to write the laws.



The ATF (like the IRS) are abominations in our system ... the ATF started out as a tax collection agency. When you elevate your tax collectors to the level of police that's a big freakin' red flag ... if there was someplace else to go, that would be one sign that freedom loving people should be looking at buying real estate there (unfortunately there is no place to go so we're just screwed) :fire:

NoViuM
July 20, 2005, 01:02 PM
Here in Texas we have the Texas Alcoholic Beverage commission. I'm sure the taxes they levy could be use for them to police alcoholic beverages. Then again on the federal level with that little known organization called the FDA. I seem to hear they do quite well at tracking down bad meat products, as well as a few other things that are bad for the people.

As far as investigating the Unibomber and other people who try to blow stuff up. Key word here INVESTIGATING. I think there's a Federal Bureau allready established to handle that as well.

Not to discredit the intelligent and educated individuals that work for the ATF, but it just seems the organization, as a whole is a bit redundant. In today's world where every agency needs to share information in an efficient manner in order to counter real world threats, it just seems that cutting out the overlapping organizations would help curtail redundancy thus making government that much less expensive and more effective at their only real job which is protecting the populace as a whole.

TarpleyG
July 20, 2005, 01:56 PM
One was bomb evidence from the Unabomber case, including parts and pieces of devices he never had the chance to finish and deploy. I'm sure Standing Wolf thinks the time spent on this case was a blatant example of federal tax dollars run amok. Oh, the horror.

Another was a vengeful ex-husband who assembled a car bomb using smokeless powder and a road flare, that was tripped when the ex-wife's car started rolling. Luckily, she smelled something hot burning and got out to see the can of IMR4895 torching the floorpan of the car under the driver's seat. The forensic examiner wasn't wearing a SWAT ninja outfit, and he wasn't outfitting himself for a no-knock raid. Still, by gosh, we should cut him loose, give him a uniform, and make him watch the border. You betcha.

Another ATF employee was taking bottles of whiskey and bourbon, and running them through a Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer. Why? To make certain that what you buy and drink matches what's stated on the label, and doesn't contain things that don't belong there, like methanol (wood alcohol). He also checks samples of wine for nitrites and nitrates. Yup, just another evil jackbooted thug, feeding at the government trough. Border patrol duty for him.

All stuff that could be equally, or even better, handled by the Feebs IMO.

Greg

No_Brakes23
July 20, 2005, 03:09 PM
Obviously there's a liberal, anti gunner high in the ranks that's unhappy with the status quo. Obviously, if they were "liberal" they would let stuff slide, not introduce more conservative/restrictive rules. Liberal anti-gunner is an oxymoron.

I've got a better idea: let's pull the financial plug on the B.A.T.F.E., put all those federal trough feeders in uniform, and send them out to secure the nation's borders. Standing Wolf, I totally agree. Let's make the DHS jokers do that too. Instead of hassling 5 year olds at the airport, they can actually do something about "Homeland Security" with the Border Patrol.

taliv
July 20, 2005, 04:08 PM
even better than letting the FBI do it, would be letting the states do it, as that's what's allowed by the constitution.

nomadboi
July 20, 2005, 04:12 PM
Whoa there guys. There's a big step between saying it's an unneccessary institution with dangerous powers and calling all of its employees cowardly, stupid, and abusive... and that's a step that I thought folks at the High Road weren't supposed to take. Let's not make this personal and resort ton name-calling.

Correia
July 20, 2005, 05:00 PM
I for one, am glad to see people like Gewehr going to work for the ATF. The more intelligent and reasonable people employed in places like that the better off we all are.

Jim K
July 20, 2005, 06:12 PM
Sorry, Sunray, "once a machine gun..." IS the law; that is just a slangy way of putting it, but the law defines a machinegun as any weapon DESIGNED to fire more than once for each pull of the trigger, etc., which means the same thing.

That definition used to be that a machinegun was a weapon that DID or COULD BE MADE to fire more than once, etc. The law was changed in 1968 to prohibit machineguns from being deactivated and becoming "non-guns" which were then outside the NFA (and other gun laws).

Jim

armoredman
July 20, 2005, 08:18 PM
Well, have some hope, campers - a great number of M14s were built for the Navy as semi-auto only....I fired a few myself...
What about foriegn made stuff? Curio and Relic doesn't just cover stuff 50 years or older, it also things that are unusual or rare, which is why factory nickle plated UZIs are on the list. Note the Romanian SKS being added to the list recently....What interesting designs rolled out 50 years ago??? I am truely curious how many firearms people can think of that will become C&R soon....and why the bloody fart is the M-1 Garand and Carbine NOT on the list?

ajkurp
July 20, 2005, 08:54 PM
What do you get when you pour clean water into dirty water? Just more dirty water.

gringolet
July 20, 2005, 09:22 PM
it is nice to know a federal agency is doing something worthwhile...seems the ATF may have undergone a bit of an overhaul in recent years...from a heavier anti-citizen/ anti-dealer view to a "gentler-kinder" ATF....it is a step in the right direction for sure...I love the USA and support it at home and abroad, BUT, get spooked when my government wants to declare its own citizenry "armed and dangerous" and unworthy to possess firearms while at the same time passes stuff like "motor voter" to bring wino's to the polling booth!

GunnySkox
July 20, 2005, 09:30 PM
" Obviously, if they were "liberal" they would let stuff slide, not introduce more conservative/restrictive rules. Liberal anti-gunner is an oxymoron."

I can't tell if you're mocking the term "liberal" as it pertains to the Left in this country, or if you just don't know that the term's connotation has changed since people like Locke and Montesquieu (sp?) set forth the ideas that came to be known as "liberalism".

Y'see, 200-some-odd years ago, there were two camps with regards to individual freedom: LIBERALS and CONSERVATIVES. The former thought that individuals had a whole bunch of freedoms just because they were individuals, and they they entered into a social contract with a government, thereby giving away a very few of their rights to secure the rest of them. The latter thought that individuals couldn't be trusted, and therefore formed a sort of social contract with a government to protect them from themselves, meaning absolutism and tyranny.

Fast forward to modern times. At some point in the past couple decades, "Liberal" has come to mean "Leftist" and "Conservative" has come to mean "Right-Wing". I don't know which, but one side started calling the other one thing, and then the originally calling side started calling themselves the other name, because it was the opposite of the name they were calling the originally name-called party.

"Liberal" now and "Classical Liberal" have about as much to do with each other as "music" 200 years ago and "music" now.

Sorry if I've mistaken your meaning, but it just hacks me off when anyone tries to pull the old Denotation Game as a rhetorical strategy.

Denotation = Dictionary Definition
Connotation = Subjective Definition

Example:
Cool -- Denotation: of low temperature, not hot, etc.
Connotation (as of right now): good, neat, nifty, awesome

The Denotation Game is where someone tries to use the historical or dictionary or otherwise irrelevant definition of a word in order to make their side of the argument look/sound better, and or as an argument in and of itself.

Ex: "Liberal has its roots in the word 'liberty', so if I'm a liberal, I fight for freedom!"
Ex: "Conservatives originally fought for Absolutism and Tyranny, so if you're a conservative, you just want to keep people down and I, a Liberal, fight for the people's rights!"

*huff*
Sorry for the off-thread-topic post.

~Slam_Fire

chopinbloc
July 20, 2005, 09:36 PM
Obviously, if they were "liberal" they would let stuff slide, not introduce more conservative/restrictive rules. Liberal anti-gunner is an oxymoron.
you need to check your definitions. politically speaking, liberal means that a person believes that laws, the constitution, for instance are subject to interpretation and that things can and should change dramatically over time. hence the "muskets, not assault rifles" argument. conservatives believe in a literal or original interpretation of laws and are reluctant to change things unless there is no other way. in politics this ideology has gotten muddied and there are few real conservatives out there anymore. there are also progressives (read liberal) who believe in the original interpretation of the constitution but think we need drastic change on other social issues like medical care. a democrat is not neccessarily (though likely) anti-gun and a republican is not neccessarily pro-rkba.

i might add that c&r is just a comfy way of saying "little or no combat value" and there will NEVER be a weapon like the m-14, m-16 on the list, in my opinion.

armoredman
July 21, 2005, 12:04 AM
...i might add that c&r is just a comfy way of saying "little or no combat value" ...
Ok...more for me. BTW, ever look at the C&R list? You mgith want to - there are FALs, 25mm cannon, 75 mm anti-tank guns, Dragunovs, Armalite Ar15s, BAR 1918, M2 browning 50 cal HB, etc.... you see, there are three sections to the C&R list. The first is straight C&R, the second is removed from NFA 34, (mostly old short barreld shotguns, ie, Gamegetter, etc), ad then the fun one, NFA C&R. You still have to go through the NFA rules, but then they ship it to you direct. Would be cool to have a german Pak40 75mm anti tank gun sitting on the porch....totally useless in combat, of course....but then, who said collecting was for combat? :D

Correia
July 21, 2005, 12:59 AM
That's great ajkurp, it would be nice to live your nice black and white world. But here in the real world, those of us in the gun business have to interact with the ATF on a constant basis. If I have to work with an agency in order to conduct business, whether I agree or disagree with that agencies politics doesn't mean jack squat. If I want to be in business I have to work with them. Since I do, I want to work with professionals. The more people like Gewehr, who are members of the "gun culture" that take jobs in federal agencies, the better off we all are.

chopinbloc
July 21, 2005, 10:27 AM
i stand corrected, armoredman. i was just going by the guns i've seen advertised as c&r elligible.

i should add that i've had quite a few phone conversations with atf guys and they are always very polite and courteous. they also tend not to like the laws they are charged with enforcing. at least, that's the impression i got. i once asked an atf agent about the process for getting an sbr. he gave me a very straightforward explanation and commented that he thought the reason for all the hoops was just to discourage people from bothering with the whole thing. my friend called the atf to find out if it was legal to attach a folding stock to his sks. the agent said he couldn't readily find out by serial number but send a letter to dc etc.... then he says "are you gonna be robbing banks with it?" my friend says no and the agent replies "then how are we gonna find out?" these guys are not the jackbooted thugs so many people think they are. at least in the phoenix area, they all seem to be shooters and firearms enthusiasts and are concerned about finding large shipments of unregistered mg's from mexico or crazy people that want to blow stuff up. another interesting bit of trivia i found out in my sbr conversation was that only an atf agent has any right to ask to see your nfa paperwork. if local law enforcement wants to see it you can tell 'em to pee up a rope.

nomadboi
July 21, 2005, 11:47 AM
My (very limited) ATF experience has been that of nice people trapped in a huge beurocracy. I had a question about legality of something... asked the police, they referred me to the ATF. First number on the local ATF website didn't work. Second was a recording sending me to another number. That number got a local agent who had no idea how to answer my question and gave me a number to their firearms technology department in Virginia.

Called that, get a recording saying they no longer answer phone calls or take messages or emails, but to send them a snail-mail letter.

Surprisingly enough, I did get a phone call from the guy a few weeks later, and he was very helpful. Simple answer to what should have been a simple question, but apparently none of the local ATF agents or police knew that, and some were trying to make it unneccessarily complicated.

Oh, the question? What makes something a gun vs. a non-gun. I had been hoping I could modify a shotgun reciever so it could still cycle casings, but was incapable of firing, and then make that a legal non-gun prop to rent out to a theatre company. No dice- the whole once-a-gun, always-a-gun thing.
Some of the local folks were trying to tell me it was totally different for every model of firearm, though, which seemed a staggeringly inefficient way to make laws.

The Grand Inquisitor
July 21, 2005, 11:57 AM
As far as I see things, as much as I would love to see M14's and 16's on the C&R list, I think the chances of it are slim and none. The ATF is not in the business of doing positive things - they take away, and little else.

Also - calling federal agents cowardly and abusive isn't that far of a stretch if you've had to deal with enough of them. There are scores of good men and women in the ranks, but just go to your local airport and you can bask in the competence of your own TSA agents.

Gordon Fink
July 21, 2005, 03:17 PM
[T]hen [the agent] says “are you gonna be robbing banks with it?” [M]y friend says no and the agent replies “then how are we gonna find out?”

Ah! Even the BATFE recognizes the quintessential problem of gun-control “laws.”

Personally, I expect the C&R “loophole” to be closed before too long. What will happen when the prohibitionists realize that regular citizens can buy battle/sniper rifles and even “assault weapons” over the Internet without additional waiting periods, background checks, or registration?

~G. Fink

Cosmoline
July 21, 2005, 03:36 PM
I'm sure Standing Wolf thinks the time spent on this case was a blatant example of federal tax dollars run amok. Oh, the horror.

I certainly do. All the King's horses worked on the Unibomber case for years and years and years and years without coming up with anything. The breakthrough ONLY came because they finally started giving out details and the published letter was instantly recognized by the man's brother. It turned out, of course, that their predictions were so far off as to be humorous.

No, I think we would do just fine without the "help" of the BATFE.

Yes, obviously those with a federal license have to interact with them. In understand that. But the fact that some of the agents may be good people means nothing. The agency itself should not exist. It has no basis in the Constitution, nor do the laws and regulations it enforces.

Hkmp5sd
July 21, 2005, 09:55 PM
US Code 178.11 defines "Curio & Relic" firearms. Part of that definition is firearms manufactured over 50 years ago. ATF cannot decide on their own to change this definition. It must be changed just like any other law, passing both the house, senate and president.

MikeB
July 21, 2005, 10:02 PM
What do you get when you pour clean water into dirty water? Just more dirty water.

If you pour enough clean water in, you actually end up with clean water.

Also, I believe there are a couple of either select fire or full auto weapons on the C&R list already. As well these two sections of the C&R listings indicate a weapon can be removed from NFA status and put on C&R status.

SEC. III.Weapons removed from the NFA as collector's items which are
determined to be curios or relics subject to the provisions of the GCA.

SEC. IIIA.Weapons removed from the NFA as collector's items which are
antiques not subject to the provisions of the GCA.

Of course I'm not holding my breath or anything.

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