Pump action


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Working Man
July 20, 2005, 07:46 PM
Why is it that in action/sci-fi movies no matter how far into the future
there is always a pumpaction gun of some sort?

I was watching Aliens again and it started me thinking.

So what futuristic movies have you seen where a pump was used (and
maybe shouldn't have been)? What was the gun (if real)?

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GunnySkox
July 20, 2005, 08:15 PM
Well, if you think about it, you can have all the high-tech widgets and geegaws and whatchamacallits and bobamagnihts you want, but mechanical simplicity will always win out in terms of reliability and ease of maintenance/repair. The grenade launchers in aliens were Remington 870s (hilarious note: depressing the nosecap of an M40 grenade can supposedly cause it to go off. However, _FOUR_ of them are supposed to be able to be loaded into the TUBULAR magazine of an M41A's underslung grenade launcheR) and Hicks' shotgun was just a personal weapon.

Of course, in games like Half-Life 2 (SPAS-12), I wish someone would lean over and tap Gordon Freeman on the shoulder and point him toward the switch/button/lever that flips the gun to Semi-Auto mode.

All that said, I don't think mechanically simple firearms will ever really be out of style until you can make electronics as or more tough than just plain ol' metal-touchin'-metal.

"10mm explosive-tip caseless. Why?" ~Lt. Gormann

~Slam_Fire

PS ~ In games, especially, if shotguns didn't have the sort of delay caused by the pump-action, they'd have to be drastically weakened to maintain weapon balance, and that'd be even less cool.

psyopspec
July 21, 2005, 02:11 AM
MIB, The Matrix for movies.

IMO, Hollywood always goes for what looks/sounds good on a big screen. The sound of a shotgun being racked is considered by Hollywood to be universal language for "something's about to die." As long as audiences are enthralled by the look and sound of the pump action, it'll be a timeless trademark to imply badassiness for the weapon or the character holding it.

Khaotic
July 21, 2005, 07:00 AM
Heh, not just hollywood... BG's freak out at the sound of a shotgun slide being racked too.

Slam has a good point in that simplicity and effectiveness are gonna keep em around forever - once you achieve perfection, you don't mess with it.
We're still using the same basic toothpick design that throg and bog back in the caveman days used, aren't we ?

-K

firefighter4884
July 21, 2005, 09:51 AM
Slam

I would imagine that the M40 grendage would also have a spin lock safety, so that you need to put a rotational force on the grenade to get it to explode by depressing the cap.

I did a quick websearch, and based off the limited information that I found about the M40 on the aliens website, it seemed like the plastic cap would probably support the weight of the rounds as they were fed into the tube mag and then loaded into the chamber.

Not quite sure though...and it's not something you could figure out one way or the other without a bunch of data that the creators of the movie never thought of...

--Jim

armoredman
July 21, 2005, 10:58 AM
10 mm caseless, but when Vasquez is shooting while retreating in the vent duct, spent cases are flying right on out.....
Still would love to have one or two laying about.... :cool:

nomadboi
July 21, 2005, 11:10 AM
What cracked me up was in 'firefly' when Jayne racks his shotgun and you get a laser powering up kinda sound effect.

It's not just shotguns though. How many times have you seen bad movies or tv where halfway into a holdup or showdown a character racks the slide on a semi-auto just to prove how serious he is. Generally no rounds pop out, implying that the thing has been unloaded this whole time. Sometimes they do this several times in the same scene (empty mag too?) before finally firing... :rolleyes:

GEM
July 21, 2005, 11:11 AM
Still would love to have one or two laying about.... - that the gun or Vasquez?

Anyway, it's Freudian - big noise, long gun, stroking it - just some kind of aggressive display behavior.

vesmcd
July 21, 2005, 11:17 AM
"Outland"(1981) with Sean Connery. Connery uses a Rem 870 riot gun to smoke B/G's on Jupiter. "Zardoz"(1973), again Sean C. this time using a Broomhandle Mauser.

GunnySkox
July 21, 2005, 01:37 PM
I would imagine that the M40 grendage would also have a spin lock safety, so that you need to put a rotational force on the grenade to get it to explode by depressing the cap.

I'm not saying this to sound like a dick, or to sound like I'm superior, or to sound like I'm trying to _get_ you, or anything, but I'm a total nerd, so I have the ALIENS: Colonial Marines Technical Manual (which is one of the most fun books I've ever owned, by the way), and it specifically notes that depressing the nosecap on an M40 grenade is not to be done, because it can cause the grenade to detonate.
Remember how Vasquez and Gormann bought it? She squeezed her thumb down on top of the grenade.

However, the book additionally notes that one can remove the nose-cap, then twist the fuse-rod underneath to give the grenade a 5-second time-delay, making it an ad-hoc Hand Grenade.


I did a quick websearch, and based off the limited information that I found about the M40 on the aliens website, it seemed like the plastic cap would probably support the weight of the rounds as they were fed into the tube mag and then loaded into the chamber.


Maybe, it _did_ only hold four rounds (or maybe three; it only mentioned the capacity was four, didn't specifically mention mag-capacity + chamber).


Not quite sure though...and it's not something you could figure out one way or the other without a bunch of data that the creators of the movie never thought of...

--Jim


Thank God for Tech Manuals, or we nerdlings would be lost!

~Slam_Fire

Khaotic
July 21, 2005, 01:53 PM
10 mm caseless, but when Vasquez is shooting while retreating in the vent duct, spent cases are flying right on out.....

Paraphrased cause it's been a while since I've seen it.

Ripley - "What do those pulse rifles fire ?"

Gorman - "10mm caseless armor piercing rounds"

Ripley - "If your men fire in there, wont they (hit something?)"

Gorman - *craps a biiiig brick*

I think the 10mm comment included the rifles, but not the heavy guns.
Frost (the guy tapped to collect and hold the magazines) had one of the Best Lines Ever
"What are we supposed to use man, harsh language?!"

-K

boofus
July 21, 2005, 02:11 PM
The smart guns and the pulse rifles both fired 10mm explosive rounds. But the smart guns used non-disintegrating linked rounds, the rifles were supposed to be 'caseless' but you do indeed see empty shells fly out of them. Whoops.

:evil:

mainmech48
July 21, 2005, 02:39 PM
Technically, it's tough to get a semi-auto shotgun to operate reliably with blanks. Since lots of folks consider the 12 ga. to be the ne plus ultra of intimidation (and imbue it with destructive powers of mythical proportions) we're going to keep seeing those trombone 12s blowing baddies six feet backwards and causing cars, fuel tankers and assorted drums of nasty chemicals to explode into dramatic fireballs.

IIRC, that "Broomhandle" in Zardoz was actually a Webley-Fosberry. Even stranger looking, and who but a Brit would've ever come up with it.

nomadboi
July 21, 2005, 02:46 PM
I would think a shotgun would be one of the easier weapons to modify to fire blanks- all you'd need is a choke that works as a restrictor...

mountain_cowboy
July 21, 2005, 02:53 PM
Wow, Slamfire, you are a nerd. :p

Eightball
July 21, 2005, 02:55 PM
...actually a Webley-Fosberry. Even stranger looking, and who but a Brit would've ever come up with it.Amen to that. Not only strange looking, but near useless--who can keep their arm perfectly straight under those recoil forces in order to allow the slide to work :rolleyes: ? Now, if they wanted a semi-auto revolver, the Mateba works....but that's a topic for a different thread.

As far as "always a slide action" (the technically correct term, just to be picky ;) ), they work. If a round doesn't go off (which never seems to happen, unless it's a really tense scene for the actors....), just cylcle the action and BANG! If a semi-auto doesn't fire, you're up a slightly bigger creek without a paddle....but it does make you wonder what would happen if they perfected things like the Pancor Jackhammer or the USAS-15 shotguns in the near future--maybe all movies in the future would feature shotgunners loading up their mags and working the action :what: . Fun times :D .

mainmech48
July 21, 2005, 03:19 PM
Many of the older semis and the more 'ominous'-looking of the newer designs like the Benelli M1, are recoil-operated. Takes a good deal more than a choke to make them cycle a blank.

Some gas systems can be made to cycle with a restrictor device, but getting it to do so without generating potentially dangerous ejecta from the muzzle is much more difficult.

Difficult=expensive, ergo it's safer and more cost-effective to go with a mechanical system where those issues are mostly rendered moot, especially where the "dramatic" considerations won't be affected.

benEzra
July 21, 2005, 03:38 PM
The shotgun your super-soldier uses in Halo is a pump action (8 gauge Hippo brand, if you look at a spent casing with the scope on your sniper rifle...at least in Halo 1...)

vesmcd
July 21, 2005, 04:06 PM
Mainmech48, correct on the Webley-Fosberry, brainfart on my part. Eightball, I have shot both the .38 and .455 W-F's and while they recoil a little weird, they're not too bad once you get used to 'em. Anyway, lets stop beating the "Alien" dead horse and come up with some more sci-fi movies with powder guns. Workingman,if animated counts, in "Wizards",the good wiz used a Luger to off his evil bro'.

DarthBubba
July 21, 2005, 04:14 PM
I had an Great Uncle who was the chief of police in Beaumont Texas and he told me this interesting story.

Back in the early 70's he got a call to assist the Houston police in the apprehension of a fugitive that had many priors for armed robbery and violent assault. They had good intel telling them that he was hiding out in Beaumont with a cousin.
They went to the cousins house and were welcomed with gun fire as soon as the pulled up,
Oh yes the perp was there and ready to fight.
The criminal managed to get out the back off the house and into an alley behind the house he repeatedly fired on police when they tried to get position on him, he managed to keep them in a stand off for over 2 hours.
Finally my Great Uncle authorized the use of a shot gun squad 6 officers rearmed themselves with Mod. 12 Winchesters they stood at the end of the alley and all jacked the actions at the same time.
This prompted the crook to immediately surrender and come crawling out all scared and yelling don't shoot I give up.
Later after he was booked my Uncle interviewed him and asked him what had changed his mind about shooting it out with the officers.
His reply was “Well sir I will tell you, When you is shootin a pistol at me I figure that bullet might have my name on it might not, but when I heard them shotguns coming to get me I knew that they was addressed to whom it may concern”.
Point is that you go with what is scary and simple which means way into the future as long as there are guns there will always be the machismo attached to the pump action.

DarthBubba

Eightball
July 21, 2005, 04:15 PM
Okay, what about the first movie in "The Matrix" trilogy? Lobby scene, SPAS-12, pump action......why? :what: :confused: They had an M16A1 for the full-auto (which is correct), but they skimped on the SPAS?

They even managed to get the scene at the end to work, with the Desert Eagle firing normal rounds into bulletproof glass (which the camera was behind), but can't do the same for the SPAS?

Red Tornado
July 21, 2005, 04:20 PM
It's hard to beat Linda Hamilton one-handing the pump (Rem 870?) at the end of T2. :eek: A semi just wouldn't have the same effect.
RT

GunnySkox
July 21, 2005, 06:01 PM
I think the 10mm comment included the rifles, but not the heavy guns.


The M56 Smartgun also fires at 10mm round, but its propellant block is longer. If I had the tech manual in my hands, I'd give the exact specs of each round, but I don't.

The worry about firing in the Atmosphere Processor is that if any of the HEAP bullets were to fly upwards into the processor's primary heat exchanger (thereby damaging/destroying its cooling system) that the reactor would go critical and the resulting thermonuclear detonation would be, IIRC, "the size of Nebraska"

Wow, Slamfire, you are a nerd.

<Shaft Theme Song Voice> You daaaamn right. </Shaft>

~Slam_Fire

Working Man
July 21, 2005, 06:11 PM
Thats a great story DarthBubba

"but when I heard them shotguns coming to get me I knew that they was
addressed to whom it may concern"

funniest thing I've heard in a while. :evil:

So it seems the sound and general familiarity plays a big roll in the
selection of pump action weapons. The cool O'sh*t factor when you hear it.

A lot of interesting info... Aliens' weapons may deserve their own thread.

Gifted
July 21, 2005, 07:21 PM
Halo is an eight gauge. 3.5" magnum 00 IIRC. I think the SPARTANS in their power armor would be the only people to be able to shoot it.

I remember in one of the Star Trek movies, Nemesis I believe, they are getting out their phaser rifles, and they do an equivalent to charging the weapon. They slide a little door back on it, and slide it back. I guess checking the battery?

Oleg Volk
July 21, 2005, 07:23 PM
http://olegvolk.net/gallery/albums/arms/pulserifle.sized.jpg

wundudnee
July 21, 2005, 10:09 PM
I always thought this old girl would hold her own in a scuffle. A WWll Model 12 riot gun. Seriously Bubba'ed. I bought it in Montgomery Wards in 1955 for $55.00.
http://www.fototime.com/{61E1EA75-ABA5-4CB3-8272-FEB6A9EBAA9A}/picture.JPG

entropy
July 22, 2005, 01:05 PM
Nice Model 12, wundudnee! The Cutts makes it look even meaner!

I saved the 'to whom it may be concerned' comment for those in HD threads who insist a pump doesn't intimidate hardened criminals. :evil:

Outland was the first movie that came to mind, the VHS case has Connery with the 870 on right on it. Good to know the 870 will soldier on long into the future. ;)

GunnySkox
July 22, 2005, 01:35 PM
Mr. Volk, that's gotta be one of my favorite pictures ever that you've done.

Everybody loves pulse rifles!

~Slam_Fire

BeLikeTrey
July 22, 2005, 02:29 PM
That Thompson, with the 870 and the SPAS cage holding the two together, is beautiful... I have thought long and hard about plunking the cash for the tax stamp down on making one of those... hmm since it will be one device, one tax stamp, or one stamp per receiver...? where'd you get yours? and does it work...:evil:

firefighter4884
July 22, 2005, 02:53 PM
Slam_Fire...

Any suggestions on where I can pick up a copy of that book???! :)



Jim

Red Tornado
July 28, 2005, 09:50 AM
SciFi Channel this Saturday is showing an original movie, Bloodsuckers. It appears to be about Vampires and Space Marines. Anyhoo, in the previews, they are mostly using pump action riot guns...mostly.

Looks like lots of gratuitous violence and blasted space vampires, without a lot of plot messing up things. Perfect! :evil:
RT

enfield
July 28, 2005, 12:36 PM
IIRC, the long guns in "Judge Dredd" were pumps.

jason10mm
July 28, 2005, 02:53 PM
I also have the Aliens tech manual (or had, hopefully it survived my recent move...).

Had TONS of cool backstory stuff, plus all the toys the Marines didn't get to play with, like tanks, sniper rifles, etc.

I'll raise your "Aliens" ante though, slam fire.

Do you have the Leading Edge Games Aliens game? The one that lets you create your own Marine character and send him all over the known Aliens universe?

That little treasure (along with all of the Leading Egde games) is a masterpiece. IIRC, they have combat split into quarter second intervals, so you could calculate the time of flight for bullets to see if the bad guy could shoot you before your bullet hit him. Had different damage levels for each range (about every 5 meters or so). Massive gun compendiums, since each firearm had its own set of stats. Took forever to have a gunfight, modelling the N. Hollywood shootout would take about 2 days!!

GunnySkox
July 28, 2005, 04:58 PM
o.O Daaang...

No, I never played that one, but I did beat the Marine and Alien Campaigns on AvP 1 (the predator campaign is too damn hard, because the predator is an utter schoolgirl) and all three campaigns in AvP 2 (nobody can step to a properly-equipped predator!).

That Leading Edge Game sounds like it's pushed its slider on the "Gaming Continuum" all the way to the "Realistic" edge, where fun or expediency takes a far back seat to modelling every single solitary molecule of everything. At some point, a 'realistic' game stops being fun, and starts being work. Most of the games I know of/play (D20, Silhouette..) need just a little more infusion of realism to be perfect.

I'll take my combat in 30-second turns, thanks. ^_^

~Slam_Fire

jason10mm
July 29, 2005, 10:41 AM
All right, here are the specs of the smart guns and the pulse rifles per the Colonial Marines Technical Manual. Not sure what exactly is their source for this stuff, the acknowledgements credit a lot of folks not directly involved with the movie, while James Cameron just gets a creative nod, so this stuff could be coming from the authors head, not from JC's technical notes from ALIENS. IIRC, the DVD has a bunch of tech notes on it, I'll have to look this weekend.

Anyway, the M41A pulse rifle fires the US M309 10mmx24 mm round. It has a bullet weight of 210 grains at 840 meters per second (!!!) (that's 2757 fps, pushing 300 win mag territory!). It states there is some sort of recoil dampener. It has select fire, 4 round burst, or semi-auto (the author confuses select fire with semi-auto). The magazine holds 99 rounds, but is commonly downloaded to 95 to reduce jamming. The carry handle battery pack is good for 10K firings, and can be recharged by the rifle rack or a portable power supply (BIG shortcoming there). The bullets themselves are explosive, designed to penetrate armor then explode. The rifle is a pig though, weighing in at 4.9 kg (almost 11 pounds). ROF is 900 rpm.

The grenade launcher holds 4 rounds, and everything about the grenades themselves is correct from Slamfires post. My read is that the magazine holds four and you can have another in the chamber, but since I'm sure no one wants to walk around with a grenade at the ready, it is probably not SOP (any M203 guys out there who can weigh in on this?). They have HE, HEAP, a "bouncing betty" type, buckshot (yeah!!), baton, willy pete, and starshell.

The M56 smart gun fires a 10mmx28 M2500 round. The bullet is 230 grain and is "higher powered that the M309 round", suggesting an even higher MV. The explosive fuse can be operator set for instant detonation (soft targets) or delay like the M309. The ROF is 1200 rpm and the weight with harness is 17.82 kg (39 pounds). I can't find a capacity for the drum magazine, but the Leading Edge game (which correlates with the tech manual pretty well) states 192 rounds.

The tech manual has some quirks. For instance, they describe the Marines pistol has the M4A3, shooting a 126 grain 9mm bullet at a puny 282 m/s (around 900 fps). The associated schematic is of a nice 1911 though :) They do show the VP-70 later on, but call it the VP-70, so I'm not sure if they are describing the same pistol (with the 1911 pic inserted by mistake) or if there are actually 2 pistols in use. The LE gamebook lists just one pistol, the VP-70 (though they don't give a model number).

As a side note, there are a few airsoft groups making M41As out of the thompson AEG and a body kit. At least one even has a working couunter! They are not cheap, but a hell of a lot cheaper than trying to build a REAL pulse rifle!

Damn, I AM a geek!

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