[thorn726]

ack! jsut saw something on the news, fire starts in house above store, 50 guns and firewroks found, of course they get a neighbor on tv,
"well what can we do search houses? " (of course they only show that much, she probably added that wouldnt be right)
"better gun control laws i guess"

her main concern was the fire could have been worse and got her house, but when people find out there were that many guns in town, oh boy. they're gonna pair that with this random murder last week, and call for even more rules here.
ARGH.

i'll get a link as soon as there is one...

[cracked butt]

What exactly do your ramblings have to do with the BATF?

[DMF]

cb, as I said a couple days ago, "I guess some people look for any excuse to trash the ATF." :rolleyes:

[thorn726]

no no, it is that they brought in the ATF to deal with this guy. it doesnt make much snese so far, it was a short news story. i cant tell if there was a fire and then FD called atf or what.

it was so aimed at making gun owners look totally unregulated, it wasn't good.

worse, a 20 yr old shot (dead) a 22 yr old girl- because she rejected him hitting on her near campus last week. put the tow together, this town will start making more stupid laws guaranteed.

so far no link, sorry hopefully thursday there will be

[Robert Hairless]

So I gather that the University of California at Berkeley has so stopped teaching Freshman English.

[seed]

thorn726, I live not too far away from you and therefore know exactly what you are getting at. I think that people who live in the free parts of the country have no idea how ridiculous it is here. I mean, anti's will find any excuse to stick a rusty shank into a certain body part of law-abiding gun-owners, no matter what. They will tie anything and everything to just make things miserable (I mean more miserable than it is already). Of course, anything they do would have done absolutely NOTHING to stop the incident of the day, and will do NOTHING to stop similar incidents in the future. But they don't care. They are career single-issue opportunists who want to justify whatever money they are collecting for their purpose of outlawing guns, one small piece at a time.

To illustrate it in the most simple way for those not in Kalifornia, think of it this way. If you took the worst of times when it comes to gun ownership and all the rights that should entail, you would have to multiply that by 1,000 to get even close to how bad it is here. Right now, while the rest of the country (or at least most of it) is enjoying the AWB sunset and their shall issue CCW's, Kalifornia citizens are being oppressed with the most stringent laws in this state's history...by far. And things are only going to get worse...thanks to what thorn726 was talking about.

[Kurush]

People don't realize how ridiculous Berkeley is? When I hear 'Berkeley' my mental imagery is a bunch of dirty unshaven hippies having an outdoor orgy in a cloud of pot smoke.

[buzz_knox]

cb, as I said a couple days ago, "I guess some people look for any excuse to trash the ATF."

We don't need excuses; we just need their record of actions.

[seed]

People don't realize how ridiculous Berkeley is? When I hear 'Berkeley' my mental imagery is a bunch of dirty unshaven hippies having an outdoor orgy in a cloud of pot smoke.

Yeah, but that's not why it is ridiculous.

In all seriousness, I don't give a damn about what people look like or what type of plant they ignite...what bugs me is how there are a bunch of pseudo-liberals (and I am what used to be called liberal, by the way) who a lot like a lot of people (but not all) of the New Left of the 60's would take up a cause and try to act like they know something about it...just so they can have something to protest.

Don't get me wrong: there are things worth protesting, especially much of what they protested in the 60's. What I am talking about are the clowns who jump on a bandwagon to become a part of some sort of image, now romanticized here in the Bay Area (especially Berekely). They know little about what they are protesting and much less of other issues about which they will profess to understand. The worst is when I agree with a supposed stance they have about some issue, because they will be all too willing to be the unwittingly incompetent face of that side of the issue. Not only will they act and look stupid doing something to try and demonstrate the merits of our mutual side, but they will be completely incapable of credibly presenting the case for that side. And of course, people on the fence will be put off by their antics and lean in the opposite direction.

But in the case of gun control, it just does not matter. Gun control is like an automatic default belief around here, if you do not know anything about the facts. And it is like a zip-tie around the necks of law-abiding gun owners, where every little gun-related incident serves as fodder for the antis to pull it one notch tighter. The pseudo-liberals I wrote about will jump on the anti-2A bandwagon and be presented by the media as the face of the popular sentiment in the area. With some other issue, this could serve to undermine supporters of that side of the issue. But not in the case of gun control. Instead, more unlikely pseudo-liberals will want to identify themselves with the romanticized so-called liberal image and will knee-jerkingly use the indicident to refortify their belief that more restrictions are necessary...and they can be the most politically conservative person in every other way...just like many of the New Left, who traded in their YIPPIE tie-dyes for YUPPIE ties, when all the fun of protesting abated and the possibility of being sent to Vietnam was no longer a concern.

And therein lies the danger of this area. This is fertile ground for mindless panic and resulting legislation to strip away more rights. THE irony of ironies is how this is the same thing done by Neo-Cons to strip away other individual rights from us (i.e. reaffirming the so-called Patriot Act). The only difference is how the sentiment of whatever issue dictates where and how it will be pushed to gain support.

Now that I've written more than I planned, let me say that I did not want to start some sort of ugly thread war over political issues. If you are conservative and or a Neo-Con, well that is your perogative. Fine. All I was trying to do was help describe the climate about which thorn726 was describing. Yes things may be considered to be relatively liberal around here (by outsiders) and that is good in my book. What is bad is the blanketing effect of platform politics which polarizes us into TWO separate camps. And since gun control is considered to be liberal (of which it really isn't in literal terms of the definition of the word), it will forever be included on the platform of the so-called liberal side. It makes voting a near-impossibility at times, because I don't like either platform in their entirety.

[Kurush]

I guess I should have put a ;) in my reply. I'm actually a Unitarian-Universalist and a card-carrying Libertarian. I feel for you guys over in CA but I can only joke about it because I don't see how anything can be done.

[pbhome71]

http://www.insidebayarea.com/timesstar/localnews/ci_2878850

Fire leads to pot, gun bust
, FROM STAFF REPORTS

BERKELEY — Authorities discovered a large number of marijuana plants and some guns at the scene of a fire that officials say was intentionally set early Wednesday.

Police arrested Leslie Tanigawa, 45, in an upstairs unit at 3027 Adeline St., where a two-alarm blaze caused about $50,000 in damage to the wood-framed, two-story building, authorities said.

Police spokesman Joe Okies said Tanigawa was arrested on drug and firearm violations because police found marijuana plants and guns in the apartment. Further details of the bust were not available late Wednesday.

Authorities said the fire destroyed a wall and caused damage to the upstairs
apartment and the nearby Black & White Liquor store. It broke out at 2:48 a.m. and was controlled in less than an hour, Deputy Fire Chief David Orth said.

No one was injured, though one resident was displaced, Orth said. Many bottles of alcohol were broken while firefighters battled the flames.

[Khaotic]

People don't realize how ridiculous Berkeley is? When I hear 'Berkeley' my mental imagery is a bunch of dirty unshaven hippies having an outdoor orgy in a cloud of pot smoke.

Now I wanna move to california!
How does one apply to Berkley ? :)

-K

[thorn726]

UC berkeley is nothing like it was in the 60s. the crazys are all people like me - who never went to school-
uh, sorry i will not spell wel, i typo often. sorry.

thanks for the link, i couldn't find one last night.

the funny thing about Berkeley- most of the hardcore politicos around here are FULLY in support of RKBA, and for the right reason- for the ultimate possibility of fighting a tyrannical govt.

unfortunately we are suffering the same gang related crap as everyone else, and this being a small town of nanny idiot parents, ARGH! we have stupid laws

[ClonaKilty]

Many bottles of alcohol were broken while firefighters battled the flames.

I thought firefighters weren't allowed to drink on the job?

:p

[thorn726]

the whole thing makes very little sense. seems like FD called ATF?
and they were on the spot right away

[seed]

Hey thorn726, an extremely similar incident occurred just a few months ago in my home town of El Cerrito...which is about 3-4 miles away from Berkeley for those of you who don't know. The same thing, except a broken water main was the excuse for the fire department to come barging in. They found weed plants and some AR's.

And don't forget the huge bust in SF in the Richmond or Sunset district (I can't remember which)...fire department busts in for an alleged fire and what do they find? 100's of weed plants.

See a pattern?

[jojosdad]

Maybe I missed something in the news story, but where is the part about the fire dept. calling ATF?

[Master Blaster]

My conclusion form all this is that there are a lot of folks growing their own weed in Berkely. And many of the folks growing weed like to shoot guns as well.

[Art Eatman]

It is not without reason for the renaming, "The People's Republic of Berzerkley".

:), Art

[Guns_and_Labs]

but where is the part about the fire dept. calling ATF?

It was later in the story, but it was after the BPD found the plants and weapons.

Berkeley

Marijuana, guns found after blaze

Firefighters who put out a blaze at a two-story building early Thursday found a marijuana plants and about 60 guns.

The fire started at about 2:45 p.m. in a liquor store in the 3000 block of Adelaide Street, said Deputy Fire Chief Dave Orth.

"We caught it before it was really going to spread," he said.

The man who lived in an upstairs apartment attempted to fight the fire himself and then escaped.

When firefighters entered the apartment, they discovered 178 marijuana plants and the guns, said Berkeley Police spokesman Joe Okies.

Police arrested Berkeley resident Leslie Tanigawa, 45, on suspicion of possession of marijuana for sale and weapons violations, Okie said.

Fire investigators said they believe the blaze was intentionally set. The do not have any suspects.

Berkeley police turned the case over to the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

-- Nathaniel Hoffman

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/email/news/12196114.htm

So, FD fights a fire. PD wanders through the wreckage, after the FD mentions a few choice items. PD finds plants and weapons. No mention of what happens to the plants (this IS Berkeley, after all), but the kick the "case" over to ATF for the weapons.

I don't, for even a minute, think that somehow the ATF has coopted the Berkeley FD to do its scouting. Nor DEA, nor even the local PD. But they do notice stuff as they're doing their thing. Since they're not sworn LEO's, I guess they don't have to worry about probable cause or illegal search... but that must be the subject of another thread.

[DMF]

Since they're not sworn LEO's, I guess they don't have to worry about probable cause or illegal search Sorry that is incorrect. Any "agent" of the government, whether a sworn LEO or not, must comply with the restrictions of the Constitution. However, the FD was there to fight a fire, which is an exigent circumstance creating an exception to the 4th Amendment. Once they were there for a lawful purpose and observe evidence of a crime, that evidence is admissable.

[Guns_and_Labs]

Any "agent" of the government, whether a sworn LE or not, must comply with the restrictions of the Constitution.

I guess that's my implied question. Are they agents of the government? They have no responsibility for enforcing laws, etc. In fact, in some jurisdictions, they're not public employees.

[thorn726]

:but where is the part about the fire dept. calling ATF?:

yeha funny the article doesnt metion it- but on TC news, they showed ATF agents, and mentioned they were involved, they bever said how/ who called them. i assume the police were at a loss for what to do about the guns.


My conclusion form all this is that there are a lot of folks growing their own weed in Berkely. And many of the folks growing weed like to shoot guns as well.

like you wouldnt believe.

computers and power mortages had less to do with the brownouts than all them bright lights do-= THAT is where all our juice is going! hahah


The pseudo-liberals I wrote about will jump on the anti-2A bandwagon and be presented by the media as the face of the popular sentiment in the area. With some other issue, this could serve to undermine supporters of that side of the issue. But not in the case of gun control. Instead, more unlikely pseudo-liberals will want to identify themselves with the romanticized so-called liberal image and will knee-jerkingly use the indicident to refortify their belief that more restrictions are necessary...and they can be the most politically conservative person in every other way...just like many of the New Left, who traded in their YIPPIE tie-dyes for YUPPIE ties, when all the fun of protesting abated and the possibility of being sent to Vietnam was no longer a concern.

And therein lies the danger of this area. This is fertile ground for mindless panic and resulting legislation to strip away more rights. THE irony of ironies is how this is the same thing done by Neo-Cons to strip away other individual rights from us (i.e. reaffirming the so-called Patriot Act). The only difference is how the sentiment of whatever issue dictates where and how it will be pushed to gain support.

YES! thanks!

[carebear]

IIRC

Even the evidence gained by confidential informants (non-LEO criminals) is bound by Constitutional strictures when operating as agents of LEO.

The agency (verb) extends the responsibility, BUT...

Fire Departments have a right to enter a burning premises and report what they find in the course of fighting the fire to LEOs who have a right to check the property post-fire for evidence of a crime and seize/use what they find in plain view during the course of those lawful duties.

Want to keep the FD from diming out your stash? Don't have a fire. :D

[1911_sfca]

The ATF was called in, and they showed on the evening news, removing various "machine gun", semi-auto longarms, and handguns.

worse, a 20 yr old shot (dead) a 22 yr old girl- because she rejected him hitting on her near campus last week. put the tow together, this town will start making more stupid laws guaranteed.

This is not what happened. Read this article (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/22/MNGHADS1TB1.DTL) if you want to know more about this incident.

[carebear]

So instead of just leaving to avoid conflict or dealing with the rude men herself, she calls one of her buddies to take action (possibly violent) on her behalf and ends up getting accidentally shot and puts him in legal jeopardy?

Greek tragedy indeed.

[grimjaw]

BERKELEY — Authorities discovered a large number of marijuana plants and some guns at the scene of a fire that officials say was intentionally set early Wednesday.

So it's more like a drug bust, and the no report yet on whether or not the guns were stolen, legitimately owned, etc. Maybe the reefer caught fire, and the locals were too high for an accurate report . . .

jmm

[DMF]

I guess that's my implied question. Are they agents of the government? They have no responsibility for enforcing laws, etc. In fact, in some jurisdictions, they're not public employees. People hear, or read, agent of the government, and automatically think law enforcement, but anyone that operates on behalf of the government is an agent of the government. So if a school teacher at a public school searches a student, they are bound by the 4th Amendment. If the mayor tries to search your house he's bound by the fourth amendment.

The easiest example is that of an apartment manager. If your apartment manager goes in to change a furnace filter, for no other reason than that is his job, and sees a row of MJ plants on the window sill, he can call the cops and they can use his observations to help establish PC for a warrant* to search and seize the plants. However, if cops ask the apartment manager to go in under the pretext of changing the filter, but tell him to look for MJ plants while he's in there, then the apartment manager is acting "as an agent of the government" because he was directed to do so by someone within the goverment, and therefore acting on behalf of the government. Without a proper search warrant, or some exception, that search by the apartment manager would be illegal, and the plants would get suppressed.

*Please let's not get wrapped around the axle about whether this is enough by itself to establish PC for a warrant, this is a simplified hypothetical to illustrate a point about someone "acting as an agent of the government." I am not interested in, nor will I participate in, a side debate about the details of the hypothetical.

[thorn726]

OK first-
So it's more like a drug bust, and the no report yet on whether or not the guns were stolen, legitimately owned, etc. Maybe the reefer caught fire, and the locals were too high for an accurate report . . .

RIGHT!! the guns were very possibly totally legal- BUT the number will be used as an excuse to enact "arsenal" laws or worse. NIMBYs!

andSo instead of just leaving to avoid conflict or dealing with the rude men herself, she calls one of her buddies to take action (possibly violent) on her behalf and ends up getting accidentally shot and puts him in legal jeopardy? So instead of just leaving to avoid conflict or dealing with the rude men herself, she calls one of her buddies to take action (possibly violent) on her behalf and ends up getting accidentally shot and puts him in legal jeopardy?

Greek tragedy indeed.
yes. the driver is "claiming" he didnt know his friend had a gun.
ARGHHH
i think it is all BS. if the girl was so "good to the community" why is she calling for this type of aid? men are talking trash OUTside YOUr place at 1 a mor whatever. GO INSIDE. why do you call a troubled angry young gangster instead of the cops if its that bad?

************update************

the city is planning a forum. ARGH! this is not going to be good. they want to "discuss recent gun violence issues", ill provide a link if one appears

maybe y'all thought i was kidding that this city would JUMP on thew chance to write another lame law no one obeys
this should annoy you to no end
http://parents.berkeley.edu/advice/schoolaged/laser.html

[gunsmith]

the anti's are using the death of a young women to push the control agenda,you may remember the plan to have serial #'s on ammo?
the plan to have you swipe your ID when you buy ammo?
the death of this young women (who called her "posse" rather then leave a bad scene and got shot by her moron friends)
If it flies in Cali expect it in your State next.
the only silver lining is the governator probably wont sign it (but you never know with rino's do you)
I am so glad I left naziland oop's I mean I am glad I moved from San Francisco.
It's only getting worse over there