[Azrael256]

Whilst contemplating various carry options for a 1911, I wondered about the idea of carrying it with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. I've got a five gallon bucket to fill with sand, so no problem with dropping the hammer safely, but I'm wondering about just how safe it would be to carry that way. I know how the firing pin works, but I don't know if it is so long as to rest right against the primer with the hammer down. Is it safe to do so? Would it discharge in that condition were it to be dropped on the hammer?

Btw, I've already contemplated "cocked and locked" as well as empty chamber, and have decided that those are the two proper options. This is really just sort of an academic exercise. For reference, I'm thinking of a Springfield GI model, but I'm interested in how this would work on other 1911s as well.

[71Commander]

Unsafe at any speed. :what: C&L'ed is the safest way to carry a 1911 platform pistol. Trying to drop a hammer on a live round is asking for a AD, and it will happen sooner or later.

[21H40]

The pistol is made for C&L carry, and the only advantage to "hammer down" is that people that don't know the design feel safer -- it is a FALSE sense of safety.

The firing pin has some margin of error in manufacturing -- like anything made in a factory. With the hammer down, it pushes the firing pin forward somewhat (IIRC on my Kimber there was about 1/16" of firing pin sticking out) and that may be enough to let it rest upon the primer of the cartridge. It may not touch the primer, but it will put it significantly closer regardless. This seriously increases the chances of a chambered round being fired without your consent. :uhoh:

Have you taken your Springfield apart completely, yet? I HIGHLY reccomend reading several books on the 1911 design, gunsmithing, etc. This pistol is well designed, but complicated enough that most people mistake urban legend for fact. Als, THR seems to have several people that know ALOT more than I do about 1911's (I've been reading alot from 1911Tuner) and you can learn a good bit by following their old threads.

There is enough to learn about 1911's that you could just about stick to them exclusively for a good while. :D

[Azrael256]

on my Kimber there was about 1/16" of firing pin sticking out That's about what I was figuring, just wasn't sure about it. I've pulled the whole thing apart before, but I didn't know if the hammer in the down position would push the firing pin out, and I didn't have a way to look down the barrel to see. I hadn't planned on carrying that way. Just curious about whether or not it would fire.

C&L is how I'm going to go with it, or possibly hammer down on an empty chamber if I feel so inclined. Thanks for the info. most people mistake urban legend for fact I am quite curious to know just what you mean by that. I know the basics about how everything works, and I've got the manual of arms down, but now you've got me wondering if I'm missing something.

[21H40]

I don't know that you're missing anything, and I can't say that I meant anything specific. In my experience, showing up at the range with a 1911 and a young face meant that every other shooter there had to explain all about the 1911. More often than not, this unrequested input was false. I'm trying to remember some of the... :barf: .. that some of those guys tried to feed me, but it's been almost a year since I've even SEEN my 1911, let alone been "educated" on it.

There just seem to be ALOT of people who claim to know about his style of pistol, but not too many who really do.

[psyopspec]

One other consideration - try timing yourself on drawing and firing with the pistol carried in C&L. Then try it with hammer down. You'll either have to use your firing thumb to rack the hammer back, which takes more time and creates a risk of dropping the pistol, or you'll have to wait until you have two hands on the gun and use the off-hand to cock it. Either way, it's slower, and dropping your pistol or being slow in an armed encounter are both dangerous. Odds are if you need your CCW, you're going to need it NOW, and not a second later.

[Bobby Lee]

If your 1911 has the proper lengh firing pin there is NO danger of it firing from a blow to the hammer if you carry hammer down.

You can tell if your firing pin is correct by removing the slide and using a knife blade or something to depress the rear of the firing pin where it is flush with the firing pin stop just like it would be if the hammer was against it and see if it sticks out of the breech face.

Before all the silly BS starts read this carefully. I AM NOT RECCOMENDING THAT ANYONE CARRY THEIR 1911 HAMMER DOWN.

I am only saying that IF you wish to do so you do not have to worry about it firing if you drop it on the hammer or somehow it gets a blow to the hammer.

I know it is hard for some of you 1911 "experts" to believe but there is a lot of people that carry the 1911 hammer down.

[The Drew]

If you want a "1911" that can be carried hammer down, then you need a para LDA. Beyond that you should only carry c&l as carrying hammer down or without a round chambered can be a quick way to get dead if you ever need your gun...

[1911Tuner]

Although I don't recommend the practice of lowering the hammer on a hot chamber, it was once a common practice by those who carried the big Colt in
times past. The danger is in the lowering of the hammer...not in making it less drop-safe, by the way. As has been noted, if the firing pin is of the correct length, it won't touch the primer with the hammer down, and if the firing pin spring is in proper order and not shortened or worn out, the gun will be as drop-safe as it was originally designed to be. You'd have to drop it from a height of about 10 feet straight down onto a hard surface to fire it.

TIP: Over the years, I've noticed that some brands of primers are softer than others. Federal primers seem to be the most ticklish, while CCI are
quite a bit tougher. Winchester just about splits the difference.

So, there is an argument for carrying the gun in Condition 2 for those who want to do that. For one thing, some of the full-flap holsters, such as the WW2 and later era leather holsters flately refuse to button up with the pistol cocked, and even the more stretchy current military rigs are stubborn in that respect. If you need the protection of a flap holster, and you don't want to carry with an empty chamber, Condition 2 is an option. Just be careful. If you don't want a barrel of sand in your bedroom, a 2-foot stack of dry newspapers will do the trick nicely, and fits in a corner of your closet. Be sure to point the muzzle straight down, though...

[Geno]

I have a couple of thoughts. I have to preface by saying that I am no 1911 expert!

First, the style of firing pin that your particular 1911 has is quite relevant. A Series II Kimber, or a Series 80 Colt (or other similar) should under no circumstances fire if dropped on a loaded chamber, correct? Obviously we all assume for safety-sake that ALL weapons are ALWAYS loaded and will ALWAYS go off if dropped. But, the design for such firing pins was that, was it not? But, if your 1911s, like ALL of my current 1911s are series I Kimbers or series 70 Colts, then you have a potential problem.

Second thought, inasmuch as all of my 1911s do not have firing pin safeties, I do use my lanyard. That, actually, is NOT my primary reason for the lanyard. I like having the pistol secured to my body and making it all the more difficult if jumped from behind that a bad-guy could take my pistol and run. Just try. They'd have to drag my body with them. :) By the way, forget the "cloth" lanyards...those are false security. I like the lanyards with coiled cable and rubber coated.

My final thought is that the 1911 was designed to be carried locked and loaded, and that is the reason the half-cock serration was put in…to protect against errant falls of the hammer once the safety was off. I read that in a magazine, and can’t recall which. I will add that info. When/if I see it again. Regarding the timing test, you’re right! I have conducted the timing of myself to see the difference of unloaded V. L&C, and for me (perhaps I'm just a slow old fart), but even if such, for me, I HAVE to carry L&C. I do not assume that if attacked, that I will have both arms/hands available for a racking of the slide! I assume, in fact, that I will NOT!

Here's an equally "entertaining", or educational test: Using "PLASTIC BULLETS"--NOT real, live rounds, try racking one-handed. Try reloading one-handed. In the CCW course I took some years back we had to do so. It was enlightening, humbling, and darned near impossible. Unless of course you trust the bad guy to do it for you. :)

Just the ramblings of an old man,

Doc2005

[Souris]

My 2 cents.

I would not carry any pistol with the hammer against the firing pin.
I would and do carry with the chamber loaded and the pistol on half- cock.
If I were going to carry with an empty chamber I would carry the pistol cocked so that when working the slide you don't have to overcome the main spring.

[Technosavant]

I carry my 1911 in Condition One (cocked & locked). Never once has the safety (an ambi safety, BTW) become disengaged inadvertently. Heck, I can't even disengage it on purpose if it is in the holster (Milt Sparks VM2). The frame/slide fit and springs in my pistol are tight enough to require a significant and determined effort to chamber a round (mine works better this way), so an empty chamber is not a good idea for me. Also, thumb-cocking a 1911 is an awkward motion, any way you slice it. Not what you want to be doing in an emergency situation.

The simplest and safest solution is to use the pistol as designed- cocked and locked. With the thumb safety engaged, the hammer won't drop (unless it is in poor repair due to an incompetent trigger job). Thumbing off a safety (especially that of the 1911 design) is simple and fast in a violent encounter. you can even be using your off-hand to engage the assailant during draw if circumstances and ranges warrant.

[BigG]

The Series 80 Colt blocks the inertial firing pin from moving forward without trigger pull. So it is OK with hammer either up or down. How you manipulate the piece is the question. The old guys, as 1911 Tuner mentioned, routinely lowered the hammer on a hot chamber or kept in on half cock. While C&L is the way to go, not everybody does that. YMMV

[mmike87]

Cocked and locked is the only way to carry a 1911 safely. It is 100% safe when carried that way and functioning properly.

If you are not comfortable with that, there are other options for guns that operate differently and can be safely carried hammer down.

[brickeyee]

The 1911 has an inertial firing pin. It is physically to short to reach the primer unless struck by a falling hammer. If the hammer is resting on the firing pin stop the it cannot move forward to impart any momentum to the firing pin, and the firing pin will not be sticking out past the breech face.
The firing pin block in series 80 guns was intended to prevent the fantastically small chance that a gun dropped muzzle down could hit a hard surface and impart enough momentum to the firing pin to discharge a chambered round. Many manufacturers never used the mechanism in their 1911s, and Colt even offers new weapons in Series 70 without the block.

[mete]

There used to be some spanish made 1911 types that did not have an inertia firing pin.We would cut down the firing pin to the proper length making them much safer....BTW it is easy to uncock a 1911 safely - just hold your thumb over the firing pin .If your other thumb slips off the hammer ,the hammer just hits your thumb.

[45crittergitter]

The first thing that comes to mind is WHY carry hammer down? What is the advantage? Secondly, to clarify, the hammer does not have to hit the firing pin to cause a discharge when dropped. Even if the hammer stays cocked, or is already down, if the pistol lands on the muzzle hard enough, the inertial pin will move forward and strike the primer, assuming no firing pin block.

[Jim Watson]

To repeat, a gun of true 1911 specification with inertial firing pin is safe to carry with the hammer down on a loaded chamber (Cooper's Condition 2.) Modern mutations like S80, SII, SA's Ti firing pin, and whathehellever S&W calls their gimmick protect against drop firing in any condition. As if a fresh firing pin spring had not been enough for all the previous decades.

There remain two problems:
1. Getting the hammer down. It can be done, I used to carry a Commander in Condition 2 and have eased down the hammer of my CZ75 for a DA start many times without an AD or even a close call.
2. Getting the hammer cocked when you need it to be. If you have a spur hammer (which I put on my Commander for the purpose and it still wears) and a regular grip safety it is readily done with the off side thumb as the gun comes to aim. Doing it one-handed is possible but is slower and less stable. I never dropped the gun doing it, but it was not always real secure.
If you have a burr hammer it gets harder and slower in both directions. A beavertail is a hindrance, too.

If you just must, I suggest you get acquainted with a IPSC or IDPA shooter with a shot timer and try drawing, cocking, and shooting the gun on the clock, vs a Condition 1 (cocked and locked) start, both hands, then one. You might change your mind.

[crucible]

Jim makes an important point: it could take significantly longer to draw and somehow manipulate the trigger back to cock it than it would simply to draw and manipulate the safety off. Whatever that time may or may not be, it's surely more awkward.

If you want a "1911" that can be carried hammer down, then you need a para LDA.

There's more than just that...option: the Cylinder and Slide SFS system can be put on any 1911, and it doesn't add the plethora of small parts nor detract from the frame like the LDA does, and the affected weapon maintains all the goodness of single action.

Chris

[Clean97GTI]

Cocked and locked is the only way to carry a 1911 safely. It is 100% safe when carried that way and functioning properly.

I'd like to point out that you are trusting a mechanical device that is subject to the shock of exploding gun powder a few inches away.

Your last line should read It is usually safe when carried that way IF all pieces are functioning properly.


then again, you could just go for a less antiquated design...like a CZ :evil:

[Bobby Lee]

"I would not carry any pistol with the hammer against the firing pin.
I would and do carry with the chamber loaded and the pistol on half- cock"

That is by FAR the worst possible way to carry a 1911. It is by far the most dangerous carry condition.

[Technosavant]

GTI, any firearm in poor repair is dangerous. Heck, guns themselves are dangerous- that's why we carry them.

Assuming proper condition, C&L is the best way to carry a 1911, and is plenty safe. If you let your 1911 get into condition that poor (like I stated earlier, it would take some pretty incompetent amateur gunsmithing and/or uber-low quality parts made of Play-Doh), you probably can't be trusted with a CZ, Glock, revolver, or even a pointy stick.

[MICHAEL T]

I agree 1/2 cock is the most dangerous of all. :what:

[brickeyee]

"if the pistol lands on the muzzle hard enough, the inertial pin will move forward and strike the primer, assuming no firing pin block."

Please show an example or a real test that has actually produced a discharge.
While it might be possible to place a 1911 on a heavy pendulum bob and drive it into a solid object hard enough to produce a discharge, this is more of a purely conjectural issue than a practical one.
It might also fire if you are carrying and hit by lightning.

[Souris]

I agree 1/2 cock is the most dangerous of all.

OK.. I am not trying to be a smarta$$ but, enlighten me. I grew up with older weapons like Winchester '73 '97 '06 '62 and was taught that half-cock was "safe"
Granted these weapons are long arms and have no other safety than empty chamber or half-cock.
I have always thought that half-cock on a pistol was a safety as well.

If I am wrong then now is a good time to learn.

Thanks.

[Bobby Lee]

OK.. I am not trying to be a smarta$$ but, enlighten me. I grew up with older weapons like Winchester '73 '97 '06 '62 and was taught that half-cock was "safe"

If you have a 1911 without the firing pin lock and you are carring hammer down and it gets a blow to the hammer the gun will not fire.

If you have it on half cock it and it gets a hard blow to the hammer it can break or bend the sear and the hammer can strike the firing pin hard enough to fire the round. I personaly know of this happening.

Even if it does not have an AD you have just put your pistol out of action untill you can replace the sear.

The purpose of the half cock notch on the 1911 it to stop the fall of the hammer if it slips off the sear from full cock or if you are cocking the hammer and you let it slip.

[Hawkmoon]

OK.. I am not trying to be a smarta$$ but, enlighten me. I grew up with older weapons like Winchester '73 '97 '06 '62 and was taught that half-cock was "safe"

If you have a 1911 without the firing pin lock and you are carring hammer down and it gets a blow to the hammer the gun will not fire.

If you have it on half cock it and it gets a hard blow to the hammer it can break or bend the sear and the hammer can strike the firing pin hard enough to fire the round. I personaly know of this happening.

Even if it does not have an AD you have just put your pistol out of action untill you can replace the sear.

The purpose of the half cock notch on the 1911 it to stop the fall of the hammer if it slips off the sear from full cock or if you are cocking the hammer and you let it slip.
Don't confuse long guns with handguns. The Colt model 1873 "Peacemaker" has a half-cock notch, too -- but to be safe you carry with 5 cartridges in the cylinder and an empty hole under the hammer. The half-cock notch fulfills the same function on the 1911. It's not there as a "safe" carry position, because if the sear slips off for any reason -- the gun's going to fire. It's there as a catch for if the hammer accidently falls from the full-cock position without the trigger being pulled.

[355sigfan]

The best way to carry a 1911 is Cocked and locked the only other safe method is condition 3 chamber empty. Its actually faster to rack the slide than it is to try and cock the hammer. Its a gross motor skill vs a fine motor skill. If your too timid for condition one you really need to get some training or another gun you can feel comfortable with.
Pat

[slopemeno]

If youre not totally comfortable with Condition 1(Cocked, safety on, round in the chamber) carry it in Condition 3 (empty chamber, hammer down, loaded magazine in chamber)

In my league shooting days, we experimented with the speed of various conditions. Condition 1 was fastest, followed by Condition 2 (hammer down on a loaded chamber)-and so close it almost made no difference-Condition 3.
Sounds like a DA revolver would be a better choice for this person anyway.

And going back to the Lever actions, etc-Remember that a '94 (for that matter probably all Browning designed external hammer longuns) has a firing pin that, if the hammer is all the way down-rests RIGHT on the primer. Want to drop it? They were intended, at the time, to be carried with a loaded chamber and the hammer on half-cock. Best bet here is to carry it in "Cruiser safe", that is, Loaded magazine, empty chamber, cycle when ready to fire.

[Majic]

Don't confuse long guns with handguns. The Colt model 1873 "Peacemaker" has a half-cock notch, too
And don't confuse a SAA with a 1911. Bobby Lee was talking about carrying with the hammer completely down and not on the half-cock shelf. The SAA is carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber because a blow to the hammer (which has the firing pin mounted on it) on a loaded chamber can fire it. A blow to the hammer on a 1911 that is fully down on a loaded chamber won't fire it because the inertia firing pin won't generate enough energy.

[Bobby Lee]

The best way to carry a 1911 is Cocked and locked the only other safe method is condition 3 chamber empty.

A few of you keep saying this but you have no facts to make the claim that condition 2 carry is somehow dangerous.

If you know how the 1911 works then you have to know that the 1911 can not have an AD with the hammer down so please tell us how it is dangerous to carry condition 2.

You can say it is dangerous getting into condition 2 IF one does not know the proper way to decock a 1911 but once the hammer is down it is SAFE.

[Technosavant]

Bobby-

Want to race?

I'll take my condition 1 1911 and be timed against your condition 2 1911. We'll see who gets lead out of the barrel first.

Condition 2, provided you get the hammer down safely (which is still risking a ND every time), is still slower to get into the fight than a condition 1, or possibly even a condition 3 1911. That would be the TRUE definition of unsafe.

[Mute]

This question rears its ugly head every so often. What I have yet to hear each time from Condition 2 proponents is any good reason or advantages to using that particular method.

[Bobby Lee]

I am not telling anyone to carry condition 2. I have never said it offers any advantage in any way.

I just would like to know why you assume it is "dangerous" to carry the gun in condition 2.

[Vern Humphrey]

I just would like to know why you assume it is "dangerous" to carry the gun in condition 2.

It has been said, "They call it Condition 2 because it offers you two chances to have a negligent discharge, once when you lower the hammer, and once when you cock it."

The Army -- who had a lot of input into the design of this weapon -- only authorized Conditions 1 and 3. Never Condition 2.

[Vern Humphrey]

OK.. I am not trying to be a smarta$$ but, enlighten me. I grew up with older weapons like Winchester '73 '97 '06 '62 and was taught that half-cock was "safe"


The hammer on a handgun is exposed to a blow, whereas the hammer on a rifle (like a Winchester 94) is protected from most directions.

A friend of mine told me the following story: "We found a tunnel and one of my men said, 'I'll check it out, Captain, if you'll lend me your .45.'

"Well, when he gave it back to me, he forgot to put it on half-cock, and when I slung my M16, the rifel butt it hit the hammer of the .45, and BANG! Fortunately, it only shot the heel off my boot."

I turned white-- but he nearly passed out when I explained what had happened -- the impact of the rifle butt BROKE either the sear nose or the half-cock notch. And he continued to carry that same pistol with a broken half-cock, without ever stripping it to check its internal condition!!

[Double Maduro]

Stacey Keach, in the old Mike Hammer tv. series, caried a 1911 in condition 2. Laughed every time I saw it. He would draw and hit a guy upside the head with it, then stick it up his nose and cock the hammer. Or he would be holding some bg at gun point and when things started to go south, he would cock it.

So much for tv.

DM

[Bobby Lee]

It has been said, "They call it Condition 2 because it offers you two chances to have a negligent discharge, once when you lower the hammer, and once when you cock it."

That is one of the reasons there is a half cock notch. If screw up cocking the hammer it will not fire because the half cock notch stops the fall of the hammer. Unless you are stupid enough to cock it with your finger on the trigger.

[Bobby Lee]

"Well, when he gave it back to me, he forgot to put it on half-cock, and when I slung my M16, the rifel butt it hit the hammer of the .45, and BANG! Fortunately, it only shot the heel off my boot."

If it had been in condition 2 it would not have fired so we at least have one example of the need for condition 2.

[carebear]

I think that story equally points to just putting the thumb safety on before holstering.

[Technosavant]

My argument against C2 carry is not that it is inherently hazardous (assuming you manage to cock/uncock it without EVER making an error), as a matter of fact I would not expect ever to have a completely lowered hammer trigger a ND.

BUT, carrying a firearm implies that a person is preparing for an unforeseen session of combat. Getting a C2 1911 into C0 condition (ready to fire) is going to take more time and be a more awkward action (especially if it has a bobbed hammer and a beavertail safety). A gun which takes longer to get into action could get you killed. If, under stress a person's finger slips off the hammer and it is caught by the half-cock shelf, it is one other malfunction to fix before use.

While somebody else carrying C2 is no skin off my neck, I won't do it. Also, I would also recommend a different firearm is a cocked hammer is too scary for a person to be carrying. Even a SA/DA pistol would be an improvement to failing to employ your firearm when it becomes necessary.

[Vern Humphrey]

That is one of the reasons there is a half cock notch. If screw up cocking the hammer it will not fire because the half cock notch stops the fall of the hammer. Unless you are stupid enough to cock it with your finger on the trigger.

The half-cock is more accurately called an intercepting safety. And you're right that its real purpose is to prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin if it slips.

But an intercepting safety is like a crash helmit -- good for one crash only. Try thumb-cocking a .45 when drawing from the holster and notice how clumsy it is. Sooner or later, you will slip -- and after that the smart thing to do is replace both hammer and sear. Which you will want to do anyway, after you see the effect of battering those parts on the trigger pull.


If it had been in condition 2 it would not have fired so we at least have one example of the need for condition 2.

While it illustrates why you should not carry on half-cock, it doesn't make condition 2 any safer or quicker.

[ClarkEMyers]

Cocked and locked is the only way to carry a 1911 safely. It is 100% safe when carried that way and functioning properly

To my knowledge when carried cocked and locked in an open strapless

(once upon a time thumbreak or strap between the hammer and slide was thought a good idea but it wasn't used in this case nor is a strap much used now)

holster the hammer caught the edge of the desk and maybe lifted off the sear then fell forward and missed the intercepting safety (half cock). I suppose there is some possibility of a chain of failures perhaps the hammer was shoved hard enough by the desk edge to fall straight forward. All I really know is the pistol discharged in the holster hands free while cocked and locked but bumped (and no it wasn't me, I've always pulled the trigger for my own negligent discharges)

I'll carry cocked and locked in a nice Alessi holster that's boned to hold the safety on but I'll worry a little bit too. Maybe some sort of gun retention reflex can be triggered when anything at all gets too close to the pistol.

The answer to 100% safe: is gun, is dangerous.

[Majic]

BUT, carrying a firearm implies that a person is preparing for an unforeseen session of combat.
So many people associate carrying a handgun with SD and I think that's a shame they overlook other uses of the handgun. It could also be used in plinking, hunting, or target shooting. In these situations the speed of the first shot may not be your goal. Carrying in condition 2 could be a viable option if you so choose. The cocking and decocking of a single action revolver is a fact of life. You don't hear of any massive numbers of NDs with the revolvers as shooters do this everyday. The procedure is the same with a 1911. If you don't agree with using condition 2 with a 1911 then don't do it, but others have been using their 1911s this way and will continue to do so.

[355sigfan]

So many people associate carrying a handgun with SD and I think that's a shame they overlook other uses of the handgun. It could also be used in plinking, hunting, or target shooting. In these situations the speed of the first shot may not be your goal. Carrying in condition 2 could be a viable option if you so choose. The cocking and decocking of a single action revolver is a fact of life. You don't hear of any massive numbers of NDs with the revolvers as shooters do this everyday. The procedure is the same with a 1911. If you don't agree with using condition 2 with a 1911 then don't do it, but others have been using their 1911s this way and will continue to do so.
END QUOTE

The primary reason to own a handgun is self defense. All other functions are seconday to its life saving role.
Pat

[Bobby Lee]

The primary reason to own a handgun is self defense. All other functions are seconday to its life saving role

I am sure many people own handguns that they use for other things besides self defense.

[Bobby Lee]

So many people associate carrying a handgun with SD and I think that's a shame they overlook other uses of the handgun. It could also be used in plinking, hunting, or target shooting. In these situations the speed of the first shot may not be your goal. Carrying in condition 2 could be a viable option if you so choose.

I know a rancher who carries a 1911 with him every day. He works with it on. He uses it to shoot snakes and other varmits.

He sees no need to carry it cocked and locked and in reality he has no need to do so.

He carries it condition two.

[355sigfan]

He carries it for snakes so that is a form of defense. Even if it was for pure plinking condition one is the best way to use the 1911. If your too timid Condition 3 is another option far better than condition 2 which is down right unsafe and slow into action.
Pat

[Vern Humphrey]

He carries it for snakes so that is a form of defense. Even if it was for pure plinking condition one is the best way to use the 1911. If your too timid Condition 3 is another option far better than condition 2 which is down right unsafe and slow into action.


I agree. As I tried to point out, if you carry Condition 2, some day you are going to slip while thumb-cocking your gun. Yes, the intercepting safety half-cock feature MAY prevent an ND. But it won't do the sear and half-cock notch any good.

There's no good reason to carry Condition 2, and a couple of good reasons NOt to.

[1911Tuner]

:D

Before this one goes to critical mass...

Condition 1 carry is the best way, with Condition 3 running a distant second...but Condition 2 does have its place under certain circumstances
NOT related to fast presentation in an emergency. Please note that I am NOT a fan of Condition 2 carry, though I have done it on occasion.

As noted, some full-flap holsters don't lend themselves to fully closing with the hammer cocked. In the odd circumstance that one would need the protection afforded by a flap holster...backpacking, off-roading, camping in
dusty or wet conditions, in which the gun needs to be covered AND the owner wants to retain the ability to bring the gun into play with one hand...
Condition 2 carry is called for. Yes...racking the slide is only a tick slower,
much safer and more positive by virtue of the gross motor skill issue...but
two hands aren't always available. Yes...A fumble is possible. Same goes for
fast presentation with Condition 1 from an open-topped rig when adrenalin runs high. Murphy is always present. We don't carry a pistol when we KNOW that we'll be having a problem...We carry the pistol for the off-chance that we just might have a need for it. The pistol doesn't guarantee success, no
matter what the carry condition...Neither does a Second Chance vest nor a seat belt. It merely increases our odds in a bad situation.

Never, ever carry the gun on half-cock. I'll go to the wall on that one.

[Vern Humphrey]

As noted, some full-flap holsters don't lend themselves to fully closing with the hammer cocked.

When the M1911A1 is cocked, the tip of the hammer almost touches the spur of the grip safety. If you can close the flap with the grip safety in place, you can close it with the pistol cocked.

In more modern versions, with rowel hammers and beavertail safeties, the tip of the grip safety stands higher than the hammer (in relation to the flap.) My USGI holster will take any one of my M1911s, new or old, cocked or uncocked.

[1911Tuner]

Vern said:

My USGI holster will take any one of my M1911s, new or old, cocked or uncocked.
**************

Mine won't...at least not without a struggle, and the ensuing jammed-in fit
unless I use a really worn GI flap holster. Holsters vary...just like pistols.
Also noticed that many others of the same design won't work well for other people. Certainly not all...but a good many. It wasn't a blanket statement...Just somethin' that I've noticed thru the years. Like anything else...Some will do it and some won't. Boning sometimes does the trick...Sometimes not.

One point stands though...Nay, TWO!

The gun was originally designed for one-hand operation...thumb-cocking and all. Note the original, gently radiused wide spur, checkered hammer. Constantly carrying in Con-1 is a relatively new concept, fostered by Colonel Cooper when he began teaching his Modern Technique of the Pistol. Even though the concept has been around for years, and is widely accepted as "The True Way" to carry a SA Autopistol, it's still a little unnerving to the newcomers to the cult. Some simply prefer not to carry it that way.

Yes...It's the best way to carry the gun, especially if moving in high-risk areas where the pistol may be urgently needed with a 2-second warning.
I am a great proponent of that method of carry, and recommend it in nearly all cases, but I do occasionally revert back to Con-2...*under very special circumstances.*

Yes...Thumb-cocking and lowering the hammer has more potential for sear damage and an AD/UD than Con-1...No argument there. It's an inherently dangerous practice with inherently dangerous equipment...but dangerous things and dangerous practices can be managed with proper care and attention. Live fast draw comes to mind. Practice is the key to managing it.
Being well-aquainted with the manual of arms of a given weapon is a sensible approach...Mastering ALL the functions of that weapon also makes a lot of sense.
Practice...and then carry as you wish. Which brings us to the second point.

Choice. The man asked about the potential drawbacks and possible advantages. Those have been answered. It's dangerous, but it is an option as long as one is acutely aware of the increased potential for an unplanned discharge. Observe Rules 1 and 2, so that embarassment is the only harm that comes. (Yes! It's loaded! / Point it in a safe direction!) Okay...Consider Rule 3 too, then. If you put your finger on the trigger, be prepared for the gun to fire...See Rules 1 and 2 above.

Above all, be careful. It's a GUN fer gawdsake! It AIN'T safe! :cool:

[ClarkEMyers]

Then there's the Air Police man, Chic Gaylord wrote up and showed photographs, who developed his skills from a flap holster with an empty chamber and other assorted techniques. There are indeed unusual circumstances that justify unusual behavior.

Still and all if I found myself rationalizing violations of my own rules I'd think hard about swapping a 1911 for a double action.

[Bobby Lee]

Constantly carrying in Con-1 is a relatively new concept, fostered by Colonel Cooper when he began teaching his Modern Technique of the Pistol

You are correct. It is a myth that JMB designed the 1911 with cocked and locked carry in mind for full time everyday carry yet almost every time condition 2 is brought up the 1911 "experts" chime in claiming God and JMB intended the 1911 to be carried condition one.

I know many combat vets from WW II, Korea and Viet Nam that carried a 1911 in combat and NONE have never carried their pistol in condition one. Some never even heard of it.

In the old days of the 1911 lawmen and the bad guys carried condition 2 or empty chamber.

Even Cooper did not keep his cocked at all times.

[Vern Humphrey]

The gun was originally designed for one-hand operation...thumb-cocking and all. Note the original, gently radiused wide spur, checkered hammer. Constantly carrying in Con-1 is a relatively new concept, fostered by Colonel Cooper when he began teaching his Modern Technique of the Pistol.

While it's true that Browning apparently envisioned a pistol that would be thumb cocked and uncocked, that's not the pistol the Army adopted. And the Army -- not Cooper -- dictated cocked-and-locked or empty chamber carry as the only two authorized ways to carry the M1911. The earliest manual I've read is dated 1941 -- long before Cooper made his reputation -- and clearly says that when an imminent need for the pistol is forseen, it should be carried cocked and locked.

Now, to back that up -- how do you UNcock an M1911 one-handed? Because that's what a cavarlyman would have to do. Which is why the Army rejected the saftyless design Browning originally offered.

[Bobby Lee]

The vast majority of combat vets I know carried their 1911 in condition 2 when in combat.

[Bobby Lee]

how do you UNcock an M1911 one-handed?

It is not hard to decock the origional military 1911 one-handed.

[Vern Humphrey]

The vast majority of combat vets I know carried their 1911 in condition 2 when in combat.

Being a combat vet myself (two tours and a bit more in Viet Nam) I can tell you a surprising number ofcombat vets do things the Army does NOT authorize.

It is not hard to decock the origional military 1911 one-handed.

I've got one right here -- how do I depress the grip safety, control the hammer and pull the trigger at the same time? And do it on the back of a fractious horse?

[ClarkEMyers]

For instance http://www.sightm1911.com/manual/manual.htm has FM 23-35 Basic Field Manual Automatic Pistol Caliber .45 M1911 and M1911A1 Prepared Under the Direction of the Chief of Cavalry 1940. Endorsed on behalf of the Secretary of War by G. C. Marshall as Chief of Staff - Offical per E.S. Adams Adjutant General.

The posted example sold for 15 cents and discusses the use of the 1911 from horseback at great length and with pictures. It seems there is a serious problem with follow through as the shooter's eyes leave the target to see where he's going next. Well worth reading.

Page 19 Paragraph 25 sub l In campaign, when early use of the pistol is not foreseen, it should be carried with a fully loaded magazine in the socket, chamber empty, hammer down. When early use of the pistol is probable, it should be carried loaded and locked in the holster or hand.....

My only personal access to earlier manuals - barring the web - is in dead storage.

Jeff Cooper is of course a combat veteran of WWII who IIRC correctly used the 1911 successfully 3 times and used the guns of the Pennsylvania even more effectively. There certainly were folks who carried the 1911 cocked and not necessarily locked in combat - they might not have talked about it much, ask them the joys of some other things they did too -

As for lawman there is the tale of the Ranger who when asked if his method of carry was dangerous reportedly answered "you damn betcha"

Sadly none of the discussion here has altered my previous beliefs and practices the least little bit - but then I've had a negligent discharge dropping the hammer (youthful 40 years and thousands of miles ago) - after I got past the nuisance I decided I was disappointed that the 230 grain ball didn't penetrate nearly so much as I'd been led to believe.

edited to add - And for the record if I had to drop the hammer on a loaded chamber and refusing wasn't an option I'd take a firing grip with the right hand and interpose a digit of my left hand, drop the hammer then gradually withdraw my left hand digit while continuing to ease the hammer down - but it's not an order I'd be inclined to take. I tried it another way once and once was enough. I'd have said that I'd practiced enough empty with my then new and exciting pistol - likely just a variation of buck fever or sweaty palms but it all made a deep and lasting impression on me. When it's hammer down carry in the woods it's N frame for me every time.

[Vern Humphrey]

I think the quote from FM 23-35 pretty well makes the point. The Army authorized only what today we would today call Condition One and Condition Three -- no Condition Two.

[1911Tuner]

:D :rolleyes: :p

Lordy! These things do hit hot buttons sometimes...

Vern said:

>I've got one right here -- how do I depress the grip safety, control the hammer and pull the trigger at the same time? And do it on the back of a fractious horse?<
******************

It can be done, if done correctly. If I had a webcam, I'd demonstrate it.
Thumb cock and lower the hammer with one hand...and without changing my grip on the gun very much. Well...Every part except the horse thing. I made a deal with hosses years ago. I'd stay offa their backs if they wouldn't stomp my ears off.

I'd venture a guess that a man on the back of a rowdy horse with a cocked pistol in hand would probably just engage the safety until he gets the horse back under control...or jumps off... and not try to lower the hammer or even holster the gun until he solves that problem. If we try hard enough, we can introduce enough "What ifs" to make anything impossible. And yep...We did a lotta things that Uncle Sugar didn't authorize. :scrutiny: No...We won't speak of it at great length.

Clark...Vern...Guys...Condition 2 isn't high on my list either, and I generally advise against it. I carry mine in Con 1 about 14 or 15 hours a day, most days...No sense in using two separate states of readiness and take a chance on forgetting which one it's in if things should get suddenly informal. Only makes sense to stick with one method. BUT...When I take the occasional jaunt into the boondocks on one of these 4-wheel motor-powered contraptions, I carry in a flap holster in C-2. I can still operate it one-handed in both directions if I have to, and without shooting myself or anyone else in the process. Practice it dry...It can be done. If you have no interest in mastering the drill, notta problemo. Others may be interested in learning it...They've been amply warned of the inherent dangers involved, and the choice is theirs.

As far as what is "Safe" and what isn't...Remember that the early pistols that Browning submitted to the Army didn't even have a manual safety, and relied on the grip safety only. The Army requested the thumb safety so the troops wouldn't shoot their rowdy horses while trying to regain control of the beasts.

Bobby Lee...The authorization to carry in Con-1 was limited to "Action Iminent"...after which it was supposed to be returned to stand-down mode/Condition 3, or even "Clear." To say that the gun was "designed" to be carried in Con-1 is a gross misstatement. That it lends itself to that mode
is a major advantage of the design, but saying that it's to be carried that way "by design and intent" may be stretching it a bit...so we're in agreement all the way. I'd guess that the Army authorized one thing, and that the troops who were getting shot at did pretty much as they damn pleased is likely closer to the truth. The regs get more vague the farther from Division ya get.

[jem375]

the 1911 was designed so the cavalry could use it one-handed while hanging on to the reins of a horse with the other....the cavalry wanted to stay with the 45 LC instead of the 1911 which the army wanted for more firepower..I have carried in condition 2 for many, many years when I was just walking in the woods and etc...Now that I have my CC permit finally, will carry in condition 1 if carrying for SD, but if I am going down to the back waters of the river for target practice, see no need for cond. 1, of course the trees could attack me but will take the chance..........it is also very easy to let the hammer down if you know what you are doing...I have 2 Witness 10MM's DA/SA that have no decocker and so if I want to have it in DA, I have to let the hammer down on a live round and even the manual tries to tell you how to do it.....I guess the point is:...if you can, do it...if you can't ..do cond.1..

[carebear]

I guess my question is, what is the "upside" to C-2?

About the only practical reason I've read so far is to fit in a holster.

What does Cond. 2 get you (in terms of speed, safety or functionality) that 1 or 3 doesn't?

It seems like the only reason given FOR C-2 is some sort of mental comfort at not having the hammer cocked.

[jem375]

I'm not looking for speed, when I am not carrying the 1911 for SD....If I am carrying for SD, probably will carry in cond. 1......

[Vern Humphrey]

It can be done, if done correctly. If I had a webcam, I'd demonstrate it.

But how'd you like to be in the midst of a dozen or more 19-year old cavalrymen, on crow-hopping horses, while THEY did it? :eek:

Thumb cock and lower the hammer with one hand...and without changing my grip on the gun very much. Well...Every part except the horse thing. I made a deal with hosses years ago. I'd stay offa their backs if they wouldn't stomp my ears off.

That's the problem -- the Army bought the gun for cavalry use. Whatever was done had to be done on horseback -- and you couldn't count on the horse's complete cooperation.

I'd venture a guess that a man on the back of a rowdy horse with a cocked pistol in hand would probably just engage the safety until he gets the horse back under control...or jumps off... and not try to lower the hammer or even holster the gun until he solves that problem. If we try hard enough, we can introduce enough "What ifs" to make anything impossible. And yep...We did a lotta things that Uncle Sugar didn't authorize. No...We won't speak of it at great length.[/quote]

In this case, it isn't "what ifs" but "dead certainties." The gun WAS intended for combat. It WAS intended for mounted combat. It HAD to be fully operational with one hand.


As far as what is "Safe" and what isn't...Remember that the early pistols that Browning submitted to the Army didn't even have a manual safety, and relied on the grip safety only. The Army requested the thumb safety so the troops wouldn't shoot their rowdy horses while trying to regain control of the beasts.

Bingo! The M1911 is what the Army needed, not what Browning though they needed.

The regs get more vague the farther from Division ya get

And a lot of people get killed by careless handling of guns, claymores, and so on. When I was a company commander, I made sure my people followed the rules -- and had far fewer accidents than any other companies in my battalion.

[Majic]

What does Cond. 2 get you (in terms of speed, safety or functionality) that 1 or 3 doesn't?
Absolutely nothing. Speed is not always required or sought after. Safety is a function of the shooter. The pistol will still be functional once it's put in it's firing mode which also applies to the other 2 conditions.
It seems like the only reason given FOR C-2 is some sort of mental comfort at not having the hammer cocked.
The reason for condition 2 is that it's just another option for the pistol. You may see the reason as a comfort, but someone else may see something else. If I keep a 1911 for HD then it will be laying around in condition 2.

[ClarkEMyers]

For my money fitting a holster isn't it - but I can imagine hammer down on a loaded chamber for the proverbial nightstand gun.

The rationale might be that drowsy or not recently practiced makes hammer down better than cocked and locked for off-body.

Easier to cock the hammer one handed or weak handed or for a typical child or spouse potentially much easier than racking the slide (especially with heavy springs and flat bottomed firing pin retainers) - I can see someone dropping the hammer on a loaded chamber and leaving the pistol for a spouse or child. I might even do it myself, but not one handed - guess I'll have to wait for that web cam. Next topic - why some very fancy and expensive fast draw holsters have splash shields.

[1911Tuner]

ROFL Vern...Point taken. It would be about as bad as midnight with the flares up in the middle of a CFD and a fire team jumpin' around with 16s on overdrive. :eek:

Then it's discovered that a rock ape and a nervous kid with a frag is what threw the base camp on "red." Just another one of those things that made the 'Nam so interesting...

Clark...If you're ever in my neck of the woods, drop in for some serious turbo coffee and a demo of the technique. It works well and can be done smoothly, safely, and fairly quickly in cocking...presentation...target aquisition...returning to Con-2, and finally reholstering...all with one hand.
I'm not hard to find...5 minutes from a major highway...I-85, about halfway between Charlotte and Durham, NC. The offer stands. I really ain't a bad sort. Ask anybody from here who's stopped by. :cool:

I don't recommend it unless one is willing to practice it extensively...but the function is there, so why not learn to use it?

Condition Two isn't anything approaching the ideal, and I rarely use it...but I want to be adept with it should I ever need to, even though the need may never arise. After all...we practice for what probably won't happen, but just might. With Murphy, all things are inevitable. :D

[carebear]

Tuner,

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but :evil:

I rarely use it...but I want to be adept with it should I ever need to

Could you give just one example of where you might "need to" that simply putting the thumb safety on would not suffice (for safety or any other reason)?

That's where I'm running into problems, I can't think of one.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy carebear...Notta problemo mah fren. It's been covered in my replies here, but a quick recap...

Boondocks...Rough terrain...Full flap holster needed to better protect gun from hard knocks, dirt, dust, etc...one that doesn't allow Condition one
with the flap fastened down, but still want to retain ability to manipulate the gun with one hand. I admit that I rarely go into that sort of situation these days...but sometimes I still like to climb on the ol' 4-wheeler and go for a
quick jaunt in the boondocks. Reminds me of better days when I didn't have to have a mirror to see all the places that I hurt when I first get up. :p

Sometimes I even use that archaic old lanyard loop for what it was designed for.

[Vern Humphrey]

I use the lanyard loop -- I do a lot of riding, and a lanyard makes sense on horseback (and while parachute jumping, too.)

But if the holster doesn't fit the gun, why not either break it in or get another holster?

[Edgeofthewoods]

What about that new thingy from Cylinder and Slide? Kind of looks at the best of both worlds. Imagine a decocker for a SA 1911 A1. Looks kind of neat, but I am a bit slow to try to buy one since it cost almost 1/2 of the original sales cost of my SA 1911A1 (WW2 GI) But it looks like it could fill a need point fo folks who want hammer down CON2 carry and C&L CON1 carry.
Any ideas on this thing?



Chuck

[ClarkEMyers]

Oh, I've been practicing - probably all wrong(?) - but will certainly take the coffee.

DON"T DO THIS AT HOME - I noticed my carry guns (only have 2 - 2 is 1; 1 is none) have high style hammers (can't really say Commander style but boy are they stylish!) and hammer recesses in the beaver tails.

From a firing grip I lift the thumb up to the front of the hammer which pulls my palm off the memory pad but allows me to depress the beavertail by overcocking the hammer - press the trigger and let the hammer down. Still not ready to do it live and may never be. I'll have to compare and contrast with a 1911A1 (currently wearing a Service Ace kit, don't want to do it with a rimfire) - I don't have a 1911.

I'd like something along the lines of the Dan Wesson Global Hunter (6" slide in 10mm, I tried to order one once) but I'll always go revolver in the woods. Really I prefer to carry a revolver generally but life is triggering some interesting urges to carry combat arms these days. I probably should talk to you or Bob and Barbara Thompson about getting a smart dog to do my worrying for me.

[1911Tuner]

Howdy EdgeoftheWoods,

That thing is actually pretty old...It just hasn't been very popular. I've seen one. It worked as advertised, but seems a bit busy for a lifesaving tool...at least in my view. In other words...The more gadgety it is, the more Murphy it gets. More intricate parts provides more opportunity for somethin' to go
fugasi. Murphy crashes my parties often enough without handin' him an engraved invitation. The standard design 1911 is as safe in Condition One
as any SA auto can be, and I'm comfortable carrying it like that day in, day out. Have known of one pistol that lay in an attic for 62 years in C-1.
When test-fired, it functioned perfectly with the magazine and ammo that was in it. On teardown and inspection, the lockwork was just like the day it was built.

Vern...I've tried reboning my two holsters. Works for a while, then the leather swells back up in the NC humidity, and it's back to same-same. The Bianchi UM-84 will accept the gun with a lot of gruntin' and strainin' and stretchin' of the elastic...and takes a hard pull to release it. S-L-O-W into play. I gave up. Like I said, I rarely carry the gun like that, and I can deal with it once or twice a year...and I'm fairly adept at handling the gun one-handed. The practice certainly isn't for everybody, but it suits me on occasion. It may suit some others as well. Again...Practice it diligently.
Decocking won't likely need to be done in a hurry, so all due caution can be used for that. Doing it smoothly is the key. It also helps to have a failry long thumb, so that the first joint will line up with the tip of the hammer spur
when the thumb is pointed straight up. Done correctly, the grip safety will remain in the safe position until the hammer hits it. As the hammer is cocked, the pad hooks over the face of the hammer, and positively captures it. By the time the tip of the thumb touches the slide, the hammer is fully cocked.

[brickeyee]

"What about that new thingy from Cylinder and Slide?"

Nothing is made more reliable by adding parts.

[1911Tuner]

Brickeyee....Bingo!

Clark...Excellent! I don't have high-rise ducktails or memory pads on my pistols...I know that they do make one-hand manipulation a bit problematical...which is one of the reasons that I don't have'em. The standard Commander GS that emerged with the Series 80s works as well as the GM safety and hammer. I can still hook the pad of my thumb over the hammer face for both moves.

The invitation stands. Stop in and see us. You too, Vern. Anybody that comes through the area is welcome to visit. Hope ya'll are into farm scenery.
The place is positively bucolic... :cool:

[jem375]

I have carried in all 3 conditions according to the situation.....cond. 1 in SD mode, cond.2 walking in the woods, biking, or at home, cond.3 in the service on SP duty where it was mandatory ......any and all are ok to use depending on the situation and they do vary....

[shield20]

The original recommendations Thompson laid down for what would be come the 1911 indeed included a request for "a safety lock, or a hammer and rebound firing pin. The lock should be placed so as to be readily operated by the thumb. It should be of such size and shape and in such a position as to prevent its being displaced when drawing or returning pistol or when carrying loaded pistol in holster."

Models 1909 & 1910 were experimented with by Browning and finally modified with a safety lock as had been described a couple years earlier. If the addition of this safety was not intended to allow Cocked and locked carry, what was its purpose then, especially since it can only be activated with the hammer back?

[355sigfan]

I have carried in all 3 conditions according to the situation.....cond. 1 in SD mode, cond.2 walking in the woods, biking, or at home, cond.3 in the service on SP duty where it was mandatory ......any and all are ok to use depending on the situation and they do vary....
__________________
Life is too short to spend it with an ugly gun......

END QUOTE

Your asking for trouble with muscle memory. It takes over 2000 repetitions to build muscle memory. If you carry your gun 3 different ways you will most likely draw your gun and not cock it, not rack it or forget to take the safety off. Carry the gun one way the same way every time then it will work as it should. There is no reason to vary your styles for carring a 1911. If you can't handle condition one then a da design is a better option for you. The 1911 is a poor choice when its not carried in condition 1.
Pat

[jem375]

never said I couldn't handle cond.1.......I have been carrying a 1911 for 45 years and think by this time I know how to handle a 1911 in any mode...I also have DA/SA's with no decockers on them and have to lower the hammer in order to start out DA on my Witness 10MM's...If I want speed will have it in cond.1, but since the CC law in Minnesota is only 2 years old, will probably carry in cond.1 when SD is my object....don't need it in the woods since man eating trees don't grow here.........If I am worried about big 4 legged predators with big teeth will carry my 44 mag with Garrett's heavyweight lead bullets :)

[1911Tuner]

Wholeheartedly agree Sigfan...I've used the carry rig as a memory jogger. If it's in a flap holster, it's in Two. Open topped rig, and it's in One. I don't carry in Three. That's nightstand/Storage Condition. Also don't care much for thumb break holsters, and prefer a simple strap for retention...due mainly to my method of presentation...scooping the gun up from below instead of closing my hand on it from above. Strap works better for that. Thumb break is clumsy for me. IWB is good in hot weather...OWB in Cold...unless I head for the boonies in Winter...Then it's "Back to the Flap."

Howdy Shield, and welcome aboard!

The thunb safety's function is covered in the Army's Field manual for the pistol. Scroll back up for the quote, but basically: "The pistol is to be carried
in the holster with loaded magazine, hammer forward and chamber empty. If
action is iminent, the chamber may be loaded and the manual safety lock engaged, and the pistol either kept in hand or returned to the holster."

[crucible]

That thing is actually pretty old...It just hasn't been very popular. I've seen one. It worked as advertised, but seems a bit busy for a lifesaving tool...at least in my view. In other words...The more gadgety it is, the more Murphy it gets.

Actually, as I've used and carried one for more than six months to test just for myself, I have to disagree: I find that the C&S system to be a robust, well-made package (with one personal nitpick), that does not add complexity or a bunch of flimsy parts, cutting into the frame to make room for them, nor does it change the familiar manual-of-arms to do so either.

I did a long term test and review of it here (with my summary in the quote): http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=100323

There is some truth to the calling of the SFS system a "solution looking for a problem". Does adding the SFS to a 1911 make it safer? The addition of a firing pin safety makes this answer a technical yes when installed in a series 70, not that carrying with the hammer down on a loaded chamber is standard fare. It does nothing for series 80 to that end, and of course legions of people have or do carry a standard 1911 C&L without incident (myself included). Do I feel any safer with the system? This is a tougher one to answer. It provides me with the ability of carrying a round in the chamber in total safety *and* be able to frequently check the status of the weapon easily and quickly *and* remain ready for instant employment in the process, so my bottom line answer is yes. It's icing on the cake that the trigger has noticeably been improved in the process, and I gained an extended slide release. matching thumb safety, and interesting looking hammer as well. I also trust it enough to carry it in defense of me and my loved ones.

What I'm not doing with this review is advocating that the SFS system as being a natural progression of the 1911 design, as that implies inevitability and more importantly, implies somehow a weakness that needs correcting, despite in the same breath wondering what Mr. Browning would do today if he could. However, I do believe that the SFS system is an interesting and useful 1911 design fork, one that stays true to it's heart by adding a robust option for the 1911 in an ingeniously-designed, easy-to-install package. For me, it was money well (and interestingly) spent.

I'm keeping it.

Since that review, I've removed the ambi-safety portion as that was the only nitpick I had and that I've not taken a liking to ambi-safeties in general. I've also reverted to my stock slide stop as it fits my barrel's link a bit better. Overall however, it continues to work flawlessly.

I strongly suspect the reason it isn't more popular isn't it's added complexity (it doesn't do so) or belief that it uses sub-standard quality parts (it doesn't), or even that it requires a drastic manual-of-arms change to operate it (it doesn't at all), but simply the overall distrust of anything new by the 1911 community of which I'm certainly a part. Regardless of merit or the lack therof. (I sometimes think that of all gun folks, 1911 folks collectively are the equivilant of the curmudgonly old man who screams "get off my lawn!" to all the neighborhood kids of come near ;) )

Chris

[shield20]

Agreed Tuner - that's my point - that the 1911 WAS intended to be used with cocked and locked carry - IT (the 1911, not the previous models), was designed and adopted that way, as requested by the military and provided for by Browning.


As mentioned already, the FM manuals spell it out too. To think it is some recent phenomenom is a bit...off.

[Edgeofthewoods]

I'll agree with you on that 1911 Tuner!. I am a firm believer of leaving a 1911 alone the way St Browning made it. My GI after break in has been the perfect companion. I use three different holsters. My primary is a Bianchi Shawdow holster of about 5 years old. #2 is a Desantis Tuck this. (With a couple of mods to support a 1911 better. #3 is a Bladetech Kydex. It is the lightest and fastest of the three. With all three it is standard Condition one carry. I still get the , "Excuse me sir did you know your gun is cocked"? I once answered Yes thank you but my weapon is also cocked! The Bianchi gives me less of them comments since the thumbreak is between the hammer and frame. It is nice to live in a starte where you have thwe choice of concealed or open carry

Chuck

[1911Tuner]

Shield said:
>As mentioned already, the FM manuals spell it out too. To think it is some recent phenomenom is a bit...off.<
*************************

Howdy again Shield...Not exaclty. We're almost there though. :cool:

Because the gun was okay or even designed to allow Cocked and Locked, isn't to assume that the Army OR JMB actually intended for it to be carried that way for extended periods. The Army was and is pretty adamant about clearing weapons and returning them to Condition 3 or even 4 when the iminent emergency goes to a stand down. Maybe I should've said that carrying the gun in Con-1 *all the time* is a recent concept. That it COULD be kept that way for months or years without damage, loss of reliability, or safety issues didn't mean that it was meant to be...only that it could be.
That was recognized and quickly adopted by modern-day gunmen who fully understood the pistol and wanted to carry the best pure fighting handgun around...and take full advantage of its capabilities. The ones who are either afraid to carry it or refuse to carry it in that condition don't fully understand the redundant safety features that make it less likely to AD than many more modern, "safer" designs. I've experimented extensively with the gun, and demonstrated to many who have reservations over it, that unless the sear completely shatters, the half-cock will stop the hammer. I cut a full 1/8th inch off the sear crown, and the half-cock not only stopped it cold, the freakin' hammer hooks still caught and held it. I was able to fire the gun with no loss of function or reliability for nearly a hundred rounds...with .125 inch of the sear crown cut off! When the hammer began to follow the slide, I stopped. Of course, this was done with full .030 inch hammer hooks.

Again...I can't recommend lowering the hammer on the gun. It was and is a
risky move. I only entered this to provide information and suggest that the function be explored IF THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO USE IT. If one is willing to take the time to figure out how to do it safely and smoothly...and dry practice until it can be done a hundred or so times in a row without a fumble...If not, then it's best to carry it in 1 or 3.

[Vern Humphrey]

Because the gun was okay or even designed to allow Cocked and Locked, isn't to assume that the Army OR JMB actually intended for it to be carried that way for extended periods.

The point is, the Army only authorized conditions 1 and 3, never two.

[1911Tuner]

Quote:

>The point is, the Army only authorized conditions 1 and 3, never two.<
*********************

Yep...and the other one is that, most of us who could score one...issued or scrounged...topped off the mag and lowered the hammer on a hot chamber.
If things began to look a little dicey, the hammer was quietly thumbed back and the safety engaged. If and when it stood down, the hammer was lowered again, 'cause Eye Corps was a longass way from home. ;)

[Vern Humphrey]

Yep...and the other one is that, most of us who could score one...issued or scrounged...topped off the mag and lowered the hammer on a hot chamber.


Troops do a lot of unauthorized things -- I was just reading "The Last Parallel," an account of the Korean War by a Marine named Martin Russ. Russ tells about how he took the bipod and flash hider off his BAR and threw them away -- then after a night firefight realized what a mistake THAT was.

When were you in 3rd Mar Div? As you know, that is one of the two combined Army-Marine divisions in US history. I was in the Army brigade OPCON to 2rd Mar Div in '68 and '69.

[1911Tuner]

'Fraid you were there and gone before I hit the airspace, Vern. I was in the middle of things when the Marines were standin' down and comin' home, so I had many homes in many places...and never one to call my own, in-country.
They were "officially" home for good in '70, but not all of'em...as you probably know. In the words of Forrest Gump: "And that's all I have to say about that."

On the topic...Yep. Many did. Sometimes the things they did wasn't for the best, and sometimes it worked out pretty well. Hammers have been lowered on hot chambers for 90-odd years though...and will likely continue to be for as long as the 1911 is around. Statistically, the incidence of AD/UDs has probably been no higher than when handling the gun in any other mode...except by the experts and highly experienced...and possibly lower,
because it's a violation of the Finger/Trigger rule, and folks tend to be extra-careful and when handlin' rattlesnakes. How many have we heard of who let one go because they forgot to reapply the safety and get their finger off the go button when reholstering after a shooting or even a tense stand-down.
It happens. (It's a gun...It's NOT safe.)

Happily...we hear more and more of guys who are comfortable carrying cocked and locked, and do so rather than play with the hammer. For others...it's still an option as long as they are aware of the possibility of goin' fumble-thumbed and losin' a toe...or worse. Since it's a good bet that it will be done somewhere by SOME-body, every day of the year...it makes sense to study it and experiment until the individual discovers the safest possible way to do it, and practice it until it's second nature.

[Vern Humphrey]

Happily...we hear more and more of guys who are comfortable carrying cocked and locked, and do so rather than play with the hammer.

That's the whole crux of Condition 2 -- some people THINK Condition 1 is "dangerous."

I once had a guy I was hunting with tell me carrying my M1911 on Condition 1 was dangerous. When I pointed out that the Ruger MKII .22 automatic he was carrying was ALSO in Condition 1, he wouldn't believe me!

[45crittergitter]

Excerpted from GUNS magazine article by Massad Ayoob, August, 2005, page 26:

“My spies at Colt tell me, the firm did careful studies on just what it took to cause a Government Model to go off if struck or dropped. The results of that study were never released, but we can determine what they were from (sic) because in a few years, Colt had adopted their Series 80 device.”

“As time went on, custom gunsmiths discovered that the combination of an extra heavy-duty firing pin spring and a light titanium firing pin was enough to keep ‘inertia discharge’ from occurring. Of our busiest half dozen manufacturers of 1911 pistols today, all (emphasis mine) take one or the other of these approaches.”

“The smaller firms that make the true prestige 1911s have gone in the same direction. Ed Brown installs the titanium firing pin with the heavy spring. So does Bill Wilson, after his tests showed that with steel pin, regular spring, and no lock, a 1911 could go off if dropped from as little as three feet. (Again, emphasis mine.) Dave Lauck…. went the Series 80 route for the same reason.”

“’Dropped gun discharges’ don’t happen every day with the 1911. But they’ve happened often enough to alarm most of the companies that manufacture these guns.”

[Mute]

I don't believe that report from Ayoob is completely accurate. Most of the 1911 manufacturers that don't use FPS only combine titanium firing pins with heavier springs just to ensure passage of the stupid-ass drop test here in Kali. Outside of the state, I believe both Brown and Wilson continue to use steel firing pins.

I'm sure that 1911's going off from being dropped has occured, though I really dobut the frequency is high enough to warrant a FPS. Like I said, most 1911 makers have been going the non-FPS route even after Colt went with the Series 80 and had done so for quite a long time until the drop test nonsense appeared on the horizon. If the frequency was as high as suggested in that article, I'm pretty sure everyone would have switched to the FPS or titanium firing pin a long time ago.