5.7x28mm? Pfft, that's a piker/wannabe round...


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GunGoBoom
July 24, 2005, 07:49 PM
look at this one:

http://www.reedsammo.com/Page.html

From the site owned by a THR member, a Mr. Reed, no less. I've already emailed him to ask to hold a barrel for me.

Point of note, the FN Five-SeveN reports 2200FPS from a 5" barrel with a 27g bullet, the .22 Reed Express is able to push a 45g bullet at the same speed from the same length barrel. :what: :D

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GunGoBoom
July 27, 2005, 09:18 PM
Anyone have a comment?

Third_Rail
July 27, 2005, 09:29 PM
Kind of like the .450 Bond one? 2200FPS out of a pistol, 45 caliber bullet, 100 grains.

Coronach
July 27, 2005, 09:33 PM
Interesting.

And me with a CZ-52.

Hmm.

Hmm hmm hmm.

Mike :D

Onmilo
July 28, 2005, 12:42 PM
I still don't get it,,,,,,,
Are we trying to sell our proprietary wildcat here????

KriegHund
July 28, 2005, 12:54 PM
FUUUUUUNNNNNN!!!!!

Still like the 5.7x28mm better though :D

Medusa
July 28, 2005, 01:39 PM
5.7x28 was specially designed to be a light and fast round able to penetrate soft body armour (CRISAT) up to 200m, same time minimizing collateral damage - round doesn't penetrate human body as the round flips its nose up like 7.62 russian and thus making a mortal wound. Or short, shoot to kill with 1 round regardless what the BG is wearing.

Short answer.
5.7x28 is a combat round and designed as such, any .22 is not. Thus this comparision is similar to Bradley vs SUV

KriegHund
July 28, 2005, 01:42 PM
But it would still be fun.

What about really long bullets for your .22, WOuld that not cause quite a bit of tumbling?

With a max limit of at least 60 grains it seems like it could be done relativly easily.

Accuracy though...heh....

Taht was probably a stupid idea. Wouldnt the length cause the bullet to become unstable and go AWOL?

Brian Williams
July 28, 2005, 02:07 PM
Somebody has been loading up the 30 sabots for 22 for a while in 7.62x25 and they look to be a hoot this 22 Reed follows suit without the sabot.

Medusa
July 28, 2005, 02:17 PM
5.7x28 is quite accurate up to 200m due to low loss in speed and thus a flat trajectory, after that it looses the speed tremendously, thus limiting it's effective range to beforementioned 200m. it goes awol indeed after that, but low speed and light weight makes it not too dangerous. .22 sabot is a different thing from .22 bullet, as usually the sabot is more like a flechette with small cross section coupled with high speed. This is not a try to bring down the .22, but more like reasoning the 5.7x28 beings. Anyway, the 5.7x28 is an originally intended military/LEO round, not a civilian one, maybe this is a main difference. Anyway I would prefer the 5.7 over a .22 anytime :evil:

pauli
July 28, 2005, 03:01 PM
Thus this comparision is similar to Bradley vs SUV

sounds a lot more like cargo van vs suv... and all anybody here is doing is hauling.

GunGoBoom
July 29, 2005, 10:43 AM
Medusa, I take some exception to your assertions:

5.7x28 is quite accurate up to 200m due to low loss in speed and thus a flat trajectory, after that it looses the speed tremendously,

As a general proposition, bullets don't lose/shed velocity at different rates at different ranges (other than can be accounted for as a factor of actual velocity, and thus wind drag). But a poor-BC bullet is a poor BC bullet at all ranges, an intermediate is intermediate at all ranges, and a good is good at all ranges. Therefore, your statement is quite misleading. And the little pill in the 5.7 has a fairly poor BC. It does indeed have a pretty decent trajectory due to its high speed, but it is losing speed "tremendously" all the way along, both before and after 200m. In fact, being a fairly poor BC shape/SD, it loses much more relatively at shorter ranges, due to more wind drag, due to more velocity. It's just that it has a high speed to begin with, and so still shoots *somewhat* flat out to 200. In any event, the Reed round with a 45 grainer would have loads and loads more energy than the 5.7 at 150+ yards. Now, to the extent that this defeats the purpose of the 5.7 round (safety to innocents in the crossfire downrange, etc.), then this is a *bad* thing, not a good thing. But if your principal concern is lethality, and fear of harming bystanders is low on your scale of priorities, the Reed round might be superior. And, one could select a bullet choice which tumbles, since one has to reload the round anyway. To that end, IINM, I've seen bags of bullets for sale at gun shows which are pulled bullets from 5.45x39mm rounds (the poison pill). I know I've seen pulled penetrator .223 bullets (steel core), and I *think* the 5.45 ones as well (although I could have faulty memory on that score, since it wouldn't make sense to sell a .221 bullet instead of a useful .223/.224 bullet). But at the very least one could use the identical bullets to those in a civilian config 5.7 - same bullet that tumbles, going faster, is still gonna tumble, and cause more damage doing it.

Anyway I would prefer the 5.7 over a .22 anytime

I'm not sure what you mean, since the 5.7mm round *IS* "a .22".

The 5.7x28 (in its mil config) is a Lexus LX 2006 SUV, and the Reed round is an Lincoln Navigator. The .223 is the Bradley. :)

DrDremel
July 29, 2005, 11:03 AM
Quote:
Short answer.
5.7x28 is a combat round and designed as such, any .22 is not. Thus this comparision is similar to Bradley vs SUV

5.56 NATO is a .22 and it is a combat round. Just because it was not designed for military use does not mean it will not work well.

Medusa
July 29, 2005, 12:53 PM
Well, at this side of the big pond, .22 means 22LR and 5.56 is a .223, and this was the basis of the comparision. What of the regards of the speed loss, I have undestood that the 5.7 stability degrades during the flight thus creating the increasing rate of speed loss. Anyway thanks for the argument:) besides, 5.7 and .223 are created for different weapon platforms, pistol and rifle, namely.

GunGoBoom
July 29, 2005, 02:43 PM
I have undestood that the 5.7 stability degrades during the flight thus creating the increasing rate of speed loss.

Hmm, perhaps - I've never heard that, but its possible I guess.

sumpnz
July 29, 2005, 05:03 PM
Anyway I would prefer the 5.7 over a .22 anytime Well, at this side of the big pond, .22 means 22LR and 5.56 is a .223,This particular round (the .22 Reed Express) is a centerfire round, not a rimfire. They are claiming, using the same type of bullet as the 5.7x28, higher velocities from the same length barrel, or the same velocity using a heavier bullet (27gr in the 5.7x28 vs 45gr in the Reed Express). IOW the .22 Reed Express is hotter round than the 5.7x28mm. From a combat or delf-defense standpoint, while I would prefer a .40S&W or .45ACP, I would rather have a .22 Reed Express than a 5.7x28 (assuming the same type of bullet was used in both).

KriegHund
July 29, 2005, 07:14 PM
So the .22 Reed Express bullet is not the same as the .22 LR bullet.

How eactly is it different? I Notice it has a nice jacket and is nice and poiny, but is the bullet longer? Is it Truly .22 or is it a little fatter?

Why not just use a .223 bullet? Is the Reed Superior?

sumpnz
July 29, 2005, 08:07 PM
KH - It looks like they're using the same bullets one would use in a .223 (which is also what the 5.7x28 would use). The advantage to the Reed is the velocity you can get from a 5" handgun even compared to the 5.7x28, and that you can use the CZ-52 platform (less than $100 depending on where you get it, plus whatever they charge for the new barrel) rather than the FN fiveseveN ($900ish).

The_Antibubba
July 29, 2005, 10:07 PM
I'll wait for more data. I like the choice of platform, though-it seems appropriate, an we know the CZ is sturdy.

DmL5
July 30, 2005, 10:09 PM
The Five-seveN Forum (http://fivesevenforum.com/forums/index.php?referrerid=22)


-DmL

BluesBear
July 31, 2005, 01:23 AM
So the .22 Reed Express bullet is not the same as the .22 LR bullet.
How eactly is it different? I The .22 Long Rifle is an all lead, outside lubricated, heel base bullet.
It is used in no other cartridge except the .22 long rifle rimfire.

The Reed cartridge uses a conventional jacketed high velocoty bullet.

GunGoBoom
October 10, 2005, 09:02 PM
Got my bbl & die set from the brown truck of happiness man today. Great service by Ron Reed's company - thanks! And included is the load data and other info in the die box - sweet.

I'll dig this up and post again after I make some and chrony them.

-CZ 52....$150
-.22 Reed Express barrel & die set - $319
-Knowing I have better-than-5.7x28 performance in a handgun for 1/2 the price of an FN pistol....Priceless

:D

Crosshair
October 10, 2005, 09:33 PM
*Note to self: Buy extra CZ-52 and mags.*

GunGoBoom

Got my bbl & die set from the brown truck of happiness man today.

It's the brown truck of sh*t for me. They lost my K-31 for 3 days. Finaly got it today. Then there is the time they lost 500 rounds of 30-06 for over a week. :mad:

Reed1911
October 11, 2005, 07:32 AM
The brass can be formed in one pass into the FL die. You do not have to anneal it, but we strongly suggest it. If you don't it will show stress cracks and begin to split pretty fast in re-loading. We finally got all our annealing equipment in for it; so ammunition should be ready pretty soon.

GunGoBoom
October 11, 2005, 10:10 AM
Sounds good - anyone have a link to a procedure for home-grown annealing in the oven, until Ron is geared up to make brass?

Medusa
October 11, 2005, 10:22 AM
You guys have left one thing unnoticed. the 5.7x28 cartridge family was created in Europe. So? We don't have such a variety of different types of rounds over here. Here it is one of the few of such calibres for pistols and SMGs, other similar is HKs 4.6x30 (this one being 2nd gen and 5.7x28 1st gen PDW cartridge of this kind).

sumpnz
October 11, 2005, 10:15 PM
anyone have a link to a procedure for home-grown annealing in the oven Most folks that anneal their brass only treat the neck. One way I've heard of from people here on THR is to first decap the brass (w/o resizing) and the place them case head down (neck up) in a pan that is deep enough to fill with water up to just below the shoulder. Then fill to that level with water. Take a propane torch (lit, of course) and heat the neck and shoulder 'til the brass glows from the heat. Then tip it over into the water to quench. When done with a batch, remove and let dry. Then size, prime, charge, seat, shoot. Lather, rinse, repeat. Most folks that bother to anneal typically only do so every 5th loading or so for high-power rifle rounds. For you, probably just the initial annealing before necking down will be enough to last for quite a while. It might not be a bad idea though, to anneal again after the first firing and then after every 5th-10th loading if brass is scarce.

Jonathan
October 11, 2005, 11:12 PM
http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jun96cases.html

http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar46.htm


The temperature-indicating marker makes it simple. Just try to get one that isn't yellow: they are a pain to see. Also, they don't leave a good mark on smooth, hard brass. It works best if you use fine-grit sandpaper to rough up a patch on the case. You only have to get a routine down, so don't worry about sanding good brass. Plan on destroying a few cases.

MachIVshooter
October 12, 2005, 02:25 AM
This could be a good option for those of use without the $1000 to drop on a Five-seveN.

I've been informally working on a 6x23mm pistol cartridge, based on shortening the 10mm case 2mm and necking it to accept 6mm bullets. I then cut down 90 gr. FMJ Sierra's to fit it (they end up about 55 grs.). Should be able to push a 55 graiiner well over 2200 FPS from a 5" tube, given 10mm auto pressures. But I can't find anyone willing to make a barrel for my Witness in this custom chambering, so the project is on the backburner. :(

sumpnz
October 12, 2005, 02:38 AM
Have you tried Krieger? They usually make rifle barrels, but they might willing to make your pistol barrel if you paid enough for it. They do make some pistol caliber barrels, but those might be intended for carbines rather than handguns.

mr.trooper
October 12, 2005, 03:35 AM
Ok, there are a few things you guys need to realize.

#1) even the 22lr has a bullet diameter of .223, so it doesnt realy mater. virtualy all 22 caliber rounds regardless of primer type have bullets .223" in diameter.

#2) This is NOT true of the FN 5.7 the bulelts are slightly smaller diameter than the standard .223. They are .220" in diameter. This is why the bullets used are generaly slightly smaller. Use of a .223 diameter bullet will result in higher chamber presures, and is dangerous.

#3) the .22lr has NO jacket. some rounds are electroplated in a copper wash, but this is not the same thing. the coper film on the rimfire rounds is mainly there to reduce fouling int he barrel, and has no percievable effect on penetration. an ACTUAL jacket, such as on the 5.56 NATO, 5.7x28, or the Reed wildcat plays a significant roll in delaying the bullets deformation, resulting in better penetration.

#4) The reed wildcat puches a heavyer bullet of comperable (but different) diameter at the same speed as the 5.7. In the real world, this means it would penetrate better than the 5.7, as it has bolth more momentum, higher sectional dencity, and more kinetic energy. It also has a higher BC that would result in an even flater trajectory. That IS the POINT of making wildcats folks; to make a BETTER round. Dont act all supprised when it it. :rolleyes:

This is nothing new. for instance: the Tactical Twenty is bolth older, and more powerfull than the .204 Ruger, but guess wich one got chambered in factory rifles? The one that had the backing of a powerfull gun maker. Same deal with this new cartridge. the 5.7 will likely be more sucessfull, even though its the lesser cartridge, because its got FN's weight behind it. The .223 Reed will likelly go the way of the twenty tactical, and join the cartridge bone yard in just a few years.

On the pluss side, if you already own and reload for the CZ-52, then this is no big deal. Just form your own cases from spend 7.62x25, and load it with standard .223 bullets. It hink that is the biggest thing this new cartridge has going for it: the simple fact that its so easy to make, and the components are so readily avalable.


O, and Mac shooter, you do know that you can just BUY 55gr bullets in .243 dimeter right? that would make it ALOT easyer on you.

DAVE RICHARDS
October 12, 2005, 05:05 AM
In ballistic testing the round even when it does yaw gives no better of a wound track than standard NATO 9mm hardball. It's sole purpose is to penetrate soft body armor since the 9mm NATO won't. Since we can't buy the armor penetrating rounds here and most bad guys don't wear body armor (although some do) anyways what good is it? Your better off with a 9mm on up round with a good jhp for almost all possible civilian uses. Plus have you priced ammo for this lttle gun? About a $1.00 a round if your lucky to find it. I'll stick with my regular 100 year old or so 9mm and .45 with good jp's thank you.

sumpnz
October 12, 2005, 08:14 AM
#1) even the 22lr has a bullet diameter of .223, so it doesnt realy mater. virtualy all 22 caliber rounds regardless of primer type have bullets .223" in diameter.

#2) This is NOT true of the FN 5.7 the bulelts are slightly smaller diameter than the standard .223. They are .220" in diameter. This is why the bullets used are generaly slightly smaller. Use of a .223 diameter bullet will result in higher chamber presures, and is dangerous.
Technically, only the .22lr uses a .223" bullet. The .22mag, and all .22 centerfires use .224" bullets. Also, the 5.7 uses .224" bullets. I mic'd one a coworker brought in and it was dead nuts .224" at just above the case mouth. 5.7mm = 0.2244".

mr.trooper
October 12, 2005, 06:03 PM
Yea? Bullets can varry .001 withought much difference.

Also, the 5.7 is listed as having a case mouth dimeter of .220. If they are .224, then something is fishy.

GunGoBoom
October 12, 2005, 06:10 PM
It's sole purpose is to penetrate soft body armor since the 9mm NATO won't. Since we can't buy the armor penetrating rounds here

No, you can't *buy* them, but you can buy the components and make them in the .22 reed wildcat. And hard .22 bullet at that speed will bust through soft body armor worn by bad guys pretty easily. And I'd venture a guess that the so-called 'non-penetrating' 5.7 ammo will also go through at least IIs, and probably IIAs.

BluesBear
October 12, 2005, 06:36 PM
If you were loading a .224" bullet into a .224" case mouth you wouldn't need a press or die for bullet seating. You could just do it by hand.

Reed1911
October 12, 2005, 07:59 PM
Technically, only the .22lr uses a .223" bullet. The .22mag, and all .22 centerfires use .224" bullets. Also, the 5.7 uses .224" bullets. I mic'd one a coworker brought in and it was dead nuts .224" at just above the case mouth. 5.7mm = 0.2244".

Technically, No. The .22 Jet and .22 Hornet both used .223" bullets, and the original .22 Jet used .222" bullets. Now however most T/C barrels for both and standard production .22 Hornet barrels use the common .224" bullets. Then there are the REAL odd ball .22's like the .22 Savage Hi-power with it's .227" bullet, and the .228's and .229's of different wildcat creations.

However, yes the 5.7x28 does in fact use common, everyday .224" bullets as does our cartridge.

On the 6x23 cartridge, MachIV we can get it built for you, though I hate to say I would not pick the Witness as the first test pistol. But, however you want to go about it is all up to the creator. Good idea all the same, have you thought about using the 10mm Mag case to provide a longer neck? In any event, drop me an e-mail I'll give you all the help I can.

Annealed and formed .22 Reed Express brass should be ready in the next week or so for those of you who'd rather not delve into yourself.

MachIVshooter
October 12, 2005, 08:17 PM
the Tactical Twenty is bolth older, and more powerfull than the .204 Ruger

:confused: The Tac .20 is based on the .223, while the .204 Ruger is based on the .222 Rem Mag. Being that the .222 RM case is 2mm longer than the .223, this claim just doesn't add up.

O, and Mac shooter, you do know that you can just BUY 55gr bullets in .243 dimeter right? that would make it ALOT easyer on you.


I am not interested in using expanding bullets for this project. Also, the 55 gr. 6mm bullets have a more slender ogive, which results in a longer loaded length for the same bullet weight. Won't work in a 10mm magazine.

Reed1911
November 27, 2005, 07:30 PM
Just a quick note on the .22 Reed Express;
We are now taking orders for the ammunition:what: :D

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