Almost Got Kicked Out of the Shooting Range


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Kramer Krazy
July 25, 2005, 11:59 AM
Yeah.....I almost got kicked out of the indoor shooting range that I went to on Saturday.......

My little sister was coming going to my parent's in Columbia, SC, and through emails, I found out that she doesn't recall ever shooting a gun, before. She said she may have shot one of my BB guns 23 years, or so, ago, but she doesn't recall ever shooting. My wife and I were going to go to the local shooting range, Shooters Choice, since my mother and grandmother volunteered to watch our 7-month old daughter.

We went to the range and signed their little rules and regs sheet and gave them our driver's licenses, as they require. The guy noted that my sister was from Texas and tried to flirt with her, and I'd assumed he checked out that my wife and I were from two hours away (mistake #1). The guy was standing there, watched me just sign the sheet and hand it to him, without actually reading it (mistake #2). I have only been in that range, once, since 1993 or 1994, and never really thought about anything being different than Rex's Indoor Shooting Range in Hendersonville, NC, the range we usually frequent (mistake #3).

We get into the range, take two lanes, and my wife preceeds to shoot in one lane, as I teach my sister all about the "4 rules", operation of the Ruger MK II, safety features of the gun, and other things. Interesting tid-bit, it was about 95 degrees in there, as their a/c was broken. I was spending most of my time coaching my sister and was not shooting much myself. When my sister was getting a little more comfortable with the little Ruger, the heat was getting to my wife, so she went into an air conditioned area and I took over her lane.

I shot 10 rounds out of my wife's S&W 5903, because the magazine was already loaded, and I switched to a B-27 silloutette target and pulled out my little Bersa Thunder 380. I am used to practicing multiple, rapid shots, so making sure my sister was reloading (as not to frighten her), I loaded only five rounds and did a rapid fire of all five at the chest of the B-27 at 7 yards. It was a nice 6"-7" group in the 9 and 10 rings. I put the gun down, checked on my sister, and then loaded another five rounds into the little Bersa. When my sister was between shots, I let the five rounds fly through the head of the B-27 with a rapid fire (about another 7" group plastering the head). I get just enough time to drop the mag out of the gun, when the guy who was flirting with my sister comes over to me with a really pissed off look on his face and pulls me out of the range and into the lobby area.

It is at this time he jumps all over me for doing the rapid firing, and that I wasn't supposed to do that because I'd signed the rules and regs sheet and they had one smallish sign posted that stated that I was supposed to wait a second between each shot fired. I apologized very sincerely, told him I didn't realize it, and that I used to be able to do rapid fire when I was last there. He proceeded to tell me that they NEVER allowed rapid fire, but when I told him I hadn't been there since 1993, he shut up and then stated that they allow double-taps, but not rapid fire. He told me that they usually would kick me out of the range, but since my sister was there visiting, he'd let me stay. I thanked him for being forgiving and went back into the range.

Once back in my lane, I loaded two more mags of five, blew out the "X" on the B-27 and then started to get pissed at his attitude. Sure, rules are rules, and I broke them, but earlier, as my wife and sister confirmed, someone else was rapid firing further down the range. I don't know if they were warned or escorted out, also, but they were doing 10-15 rounds, as my wife recalled. Also, the guys right next to me were shooting at a B-27 at 7 yards, too, but they were missing the paper completely, whereas I was still doing 6"-7" groups with rapid fire. As I started to think of the guy's attitude, the more ticked I got, and with the sweltering heat in the range, I decided to pack up and leave, as my sister and wife were not having fun with the heat, and I was just didn't like the guy's attitude.

Anyway.......yeppers, almost got thrown out of the range. I assumed too many things, the main one being that I didn't read their new rules, and am too used to shooting rapid fire at my regular range. I'll probably still go to Shooter's Choice in the future, but I'll pay attention, next time. It isn't the best range I've ever been to, and I'm a little "on edge" when there......there are bullet holes directly overhead in the lane, and HUGE chunks are shot out of the rafters downrange, plus, they had a person (I think it was an employee) accidentally shoot himself in the head with a Desert Eagle 50AE a few years ago. Seeing all of those bullet holes, just makes me a little uneasy......and I can understand their restrictions on rapid fire if their regular customers are anything like the two guys in the lane next to me.

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md2lgyk
July 25, 2005, 12:06 PM
Just one of the many reasons I never go to public ranges.

HankB
July 25, 2005, 12:14 PM
Almost happened to me once, I'd just set up, fired a few rounds, and the BBF (bearded bas***d flunky) comes in SCREAMING at me for rapid fire.

All I had that day was a T/C Contender. (In case you don't know, that's a single shot pistol.) Needless to say, the rapid fire came from someone else. Dolt didn't even apologize. I spoke to the range owner next time I was in, and the BBF never harassed me again. (Range owner knew I spent a lot of $$ in his shop.)

If you pay in advance, just be sure the guy gives you a refund before you leave.

MrTuffPaws
July 25, 2005, 01:19 PM
All of the ranges around here do not allow for rapid or double taps.

At least you admit your mistakes and will not make them again when you go to a new range.

grimjaw
July 25, 2005, 02:11 PM
I went to a public range yesterday to try out the new barrel in a Makarov and to rent a Springfield XD9 to see if I liked it. After going through all the Mak ammo, I packed my things up and went back to the counter to ask to rent a Springfield. I asked him first if they had any Ruger P95's, answer was no. Asked him if they had any Springfield XD9's, answer was no. I was looking at what I swore was a duo-tone model in the rack, so I asked, "what's this one right here", pointing.

"That's a .45."

"I mean two or three guns to your left."

"That's a Beretta."

"I know what a Beretta looks like, I mean the one to your right of that."

He picks it up like he's never seen it before, and says, "this is a Springfield."

You're supposed to fill out a form that lists your experience with the guns you're renting, but he forgot about that, too.

Rapid fire is common at this range. I've never seen anyone get chewed out for it. I've been reprimanded for safety warnings at the state-operated ranges more than once, and I'm grateful for it. They've been firm but never rude about it, and I've never been singled out.

jmm

Jim K
July 25, 2005, 02:27 PM
Most ranges ban rapid fire because, in many cases, it is inaccurate and destroys target frames and carriers. In some cases it is PR, because of fears that they will be accused of allowing "terrorists to practice with machine guns" or similar nonsense.

I was once warned about rapid fire. The odd thing was that I was using a revolver. I admit it did sound a bit like a semi-auto (hell, it sounded like a full auto), but I resolved to slow down a bit. I did point out that all my shots were in the black, so I was no danger to the target frame.

Jim

RavenVT100
July 25, 2005, 02:30 PM
At my range they don't allow rapid fire. But then again, you bring your own target frame, so if you destroy it, it's not like the club is liable or anything.

Heh, my frame is still going strong, but I'm not going to say there aren't any bullet holes in it. My wife nailed it good once--and the wood went flying.

NoViuM
July 25, 2005, 02:42 PM
I've been yelled at a few times for "rapid fire" once I really was, other time it was me and a friend alternating fire out of the same model gun. We spoke to management about the half bald a#@hole hippie who accused us of practicing for drive by's. Now I have a tendancy to shoot pieces of their target stands off.. Testing expansion of various hollow points in 2x4s.

MAUSER88
July 25, 2005, 03:41 PM
I wouldn't go back. I rapid fire at my range all the time.

Kramer Krazy
July 25, 2005, 03:47 PM
Now I have a tendancy to shoot pieces of their target stands off...
I had thought about taking another chunk out of a rafter, but less destructive.....for the last shots of the day, I thought about putting a fresh B-27 up, fully loading a mag for the wife's 5903 (15+1, if I recall correctly), and unloading into the target with a nice, smooth, rapid fire. I figured when he went to throw me out, I'd point out the nice group in the 9 and 10 rings, point out the guys in the other lane, and mention that those guys are the ones he should be worried about when it came to parts of his rafters missing, lights blown out, destroyed stands and cables, and bullet holes directly over one's head while standing at the booth. Maybe I'll do that next time. :evil:

MikeIsaj
July 25, 2005, 03:54 PM
Sounds to me like the employee has poor communication skills. He had a valid message but delivered it poorly. I'll never understand why people expect calm rational reponses to maniacal behavior. A simple polite reminder of the rule would have been appropriate. I give you credit for admitting your error.

Now to take the other side. A private range is private property and as such, they are free to set the rules. If you don't like the rules, shoot elsewhere. When I go to a new range I am aware of this and also that shooting is serious business and different people have different tolerances. In the future I would take a moment to read the rules, or any form before I sign it.

For the record, many ranges prohibit rapid fire because it is one way to keep the riff-raff out. At my favorite range, I've seen more than one person leave because they couldn't rapid fire their "foley" there. Good riddence.

I won't get into the idea of allowing your sister to shoot unsupervised on her first outing. If you were shooting in the next lane, you were not watching her close enough for her safety or yours. My opinion, others may disagree.

MAURICE
July 25, 2005, 05:21 PM
One outdoor range here does not allow rapid fire, tho there is not an RO on duty, EVER.
One of the indoor ranges rents out SMGs, so rapid fire is A-O.K. (mp5k is mucho fun :D)

Bruce H
July 25, 2005, 08:13 PM
Somebody really needs to think this through. If a range would sell ammo at very reasonable prices, and encourage rapid fire!!!!!!

Old NFO
July 25, 2005, 08:24 PM
Where I shoot, full auto is common, so rapid fire is actually kinda "slow"... And yeah Krazy, I had the SAME problem at Shooter's Choice and I will never go back there- I told the manager about it and he blew me off, so I took my business to Lawman's.

jefnvk
July 25, 2005, 08:37 PM
Rule #1: Never sign anything that you haven't read.
Rule #2: Never assume.

Hawkmoon
July 25, 2005, 08:40 PM
I shoot at two indoor ranges, one in PA and one in my home state. Neither allows rapid fire.

So let me see if I have this straight:

You went to a range where you haven't been for 12 years. You signed a statement that you had read the rules, even though you did not read the rules. You violated one of the rules. You admit that you violated the rules.

And you're pissed at the employee for NOT kicking you out for violating the rules, even though he could have?

I guess I don't have it straight, because I don't understand what your complaint is. You screwed up. Deal with it. Don't blame the range guy for doing his job.

chaim
July 25, 2005, 08:56 PM
Thrown out of a range . . .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Almost happened to me once,

Me too, and what was most annoying about that one is I didn't do anything (an idiot friend of mine did).

At that time a friend of mine had a Ruger P90. I had a Ruger P89. If anyone doesn't know they are pretty much identical guns but one is .45ACP and the other is 9mm. Well, this friend is a bit of a yahoo and decided he wanted to shoot two handed like he's seen in the movies. The range employees came running over to us and proceeded to scream at us and warn us that if they ever have to warn either of us about anything ever again we would be banned for life.

BTW- It has been about 3 years since I have been shooting with that friend.

One of the indoor ranges rents out SMGs, so rapid fire is A-O.K. That would seem to make sense. What's funny is I know two indoor ranges that rent full-auto guns (one SMG, the other has a rifle range and has some assault rifles) but don't allow rapid fire with semis or revolvers :banghead:

Fingolfin
July 25, 2005, 11:24 PM
Kramer Krazy,

This is typical of the attitude i've gotten from the staff there at Shooter's Choice. There are a couple of cool guys there, but often either they are range nazis, or trying to tell you how much your gun sucks. I guess they feel they can do that since they the only indoor gig in town. I've heard of worse, but decided to join a club with a private range so I wouldn't have to put up with it anymore.

Missashot
July 26, 2005, 09:58 AM
Well, in Kramers defense, there weren't any pictures next to the rules. :evil:

Geno
July 26, 2005, 10:23 AM
I practice hundreds, and more typically literally thousands of rounds per month. Conditioned responce, eye-hand coordination, etc. Now, reflect on the last time you were in one of these ranges that permit 1 shot every 3 seconds. How many people have every literally practices "Self-defefensive shooting", firing 1 shot every 3 seconds. That is good justification for shooting at the family farm. Unfortunately, the farm is 3 hours north of me.

The option, get a range membership. Get to know the owner or manager. Attend as many invitation-only tactical classes as you can and establish yourself as an excellent shot, with excellent self-control physically and emotionally. Then, before shooting, when you want to shoot tactical, defensive, double, even triple taps, in some cases, emptying the magazines...SPEAK WITH THE MANAGER first!

When shooting as such, this is what I do. Any other practice is a waste of my money, time and expensive ammo. I would rather drive 2 times per month for 1/2 day sessions at the farm, than 15 days per month 1 hour sessions at the indoor range if any other conditions were present. But, have no doubt, that one of the other ranges where I USED to shoot will NOT bend an inch. Single shot, 1 round every 3 seconds...even for CCW holders. To me, it makes no sense. By the way, DO NOT assume that becuase the person is watching the range that they are a gun person. I have seen many who were not, in fact did not even OWN a gun! They were simply assigned there for the day.

Doc2005

Correia
July 26, 2005, 03:28 PM
The closest range to me is a 1 shot a second range.

That is the most useless way in the world to shoot a pistol. I'm an action pistol kind of guy, so 1 second per shot seems like an eternity.

The RO got on me once for going too fast. It irked me quite a bit, so I loaded all of my magazines with one round and practiced my slide lock reloads. :D They didn't know what to think of that, and I could tell that I had confused them, as they were trying to think of some rule that I was breaking.

Since then I've started teaching CCW at that range, and so many of the ROs recognize me, and cut me a little more slack.

LiquidTension
July 26, 2005, 06:01 PM
I almost got kicked out of Shooter's Choice once as well, but not for breaking ANY range rules. I was taking a buddy of mine (who had never shot) and his friend from KS (who had asked me to take him) for their first time. There wasn't anybody else on the range, and I only rented one lane so I could keep an eye on them. Anyway, the guy from KS wanted some pics to document the occasion - no problem. I had CAREFULLY read ALL of the range rules and guess what? No mention of pictures ANYWHERE IN THE BUILDING. I made sure of this before we took any pictures. Anyway, we took several and everything was fine until one time the flash went off and the RO saw it and went ballistic. Told me I knew better than that (they know me in there) and slapped my wrist, whatever. I asked him how I was supposed to know since it wasn't posted anywhere, and he just said again that I should know better :banghead:

That was the last time I went to that range, and I joined an outdoor club. I go in there just to look at the selection, but I haven't bought anything since that incident. If you're going to yell at me for breaking a non-rule that has NOTHING to do with safety (since there wasn't anyone else there) and insist that I be psychic, you can kiss my hard earned dollars goodbye. Funny, I've bought 2 or 3 guns from Palmetto since then, and ordered a few more.

BlkHawk73
July 26, 2005, 06:21 PM
Not that there's any around here any more but I'm just sooo glad I can enjoy the member's only club here and not worry about stuff like that.

Mannlicher
July 26, 2005, 07:15 PM
whole thing sounds pretty juvenile to me. Attitude. Ya gotta check that at the desk when you go shooting

Cosmoline
July 26, 2005, 07:24 PM
The problem is the guys at the desk often haven't checked THEIR attitudes. I've run into a lot of bad attitude from the surly range masters at indoor ranges, particularly one that closed down a few years ago. The outdoor ranges, public and private, seem a little more sensible.

I won't go to ranges that forbid rapid aimed fire, since often that's exactly what I need to practice.

entropy
July 26, 2005, 08:25 PM
Precisely why I don't like to shoot at indoor ranges at all, and rarely at outdoor ranges anymore. About the only indoor range around here I'd even think of is Armored Fire, and that's only because they rent FA's. I shoot at the family farm, and can practice '2 COM and 1 to the head', etc. drills as I want, when I want, at what ever distance I want. And I am the RO. ;)

jason10mm
July 26, 2005, 10:26 PM
I remember one time at Blackhawk here in San Antonio. I was sitting on the 100 yard line taking potshots at a can I threw down the lane, just to get my rifle sighted in at close range.

The owner comes down in a huff, yelling at me about shooting before 9 am, violating their rules.

Only problem is that I was shooting a pump-action BB rifle (hence the can target), it was my friend sitting on the other side of the range sighting in his AR-15 that was making all the noise :)

Guy looked a little disconcerted after figuring that out and never did regain his full head of steam.

I could tell you the story about the vatos twirling their pistols and drawing on each other behind the lines at "A place to shoot", but a search could probably bring that one up.

Hardtarget
July 27, 2005, 12:01 AM
When you do decide to go to another range, be sure the manager knows your name so you can call every time you visit the other place.You can tell him about the business he missed...or something like that. :evil:
Mark.

walking arsenal
July 27, 2005, 12:23 AM
One of the few times i thought i was actually going to have to smoke some one was at a public range. The self apointed range master came over and screamed at me and started poking me in the chest for showing another shooter my slide locked open magazine out obviously empty steyr. After stepping back from him three times and having him follow still poking at me i grabbed one of my full mags off the bench, the plan was to apalogize once more and step back, and if he followed slam the mag home and then ask him to back away again. didnt come to that though as he quite when i grabbed the mag.

Dont go back there either, now i go to whatshisname memorial range outside of souptown wis.

Kramer Krazy
July 27, 2005, 10:35 AM
Seems anyone that knows of Shooter's Choice doesn't have a good thing to say about them. I'm surprised they have stayed open as long as they have (I've never bought anything from them other than range time).....Not surprisingly, this is the same shop that had an ex-rental S&W 629 that they were trying to sell as "new".....and it was dirty enough to make it look like it had 500 rounds fired through it since its last cleaning. After pointing out that the gun was obviously used, the salesman insisted it was a new gun. :eek: I don't consider a range-rental gun as new. I quit going there in '93 or '94 because of negative experiences. Looks like I'll stay away from there for a while longer.

Missashot
July 27, 2005, 10:53 AM
Kramer, you just need to cool down that itchy trigger finger! :neener:
And such a fine price on a new, but "very test fired" gun. What a deal! :evil:

Fingolfin
July 27, 2005, 07:14 PM
I almost got kicked out of Shooter's Choice once as well, but not for breaking ANY range rules. I was taking a buddy of mine (who had never shot) and his friend from KS (who had asked me to take him) for their first time. There wasn't anybody else on the range, and I only rented one lane so I could keep an eye on them. Anyway, the guy from KS wanted some pics to document the occasion - no problem. I had CAREFULLY read ALL of the range rules and guess what? No mention of pictures ANYWHERE IN THE BUILDING. I made sure of this before we took any pictures. Anyway, we took several and everything was fine until one time the flash went off and the RO saw it and went ballistic. Told me I knew better than that (they know me in there) and slapped my wrist, whatever. I asked him how I was supposed to know since it wasn't posted anywhere, and he just said again that I should know better

That was the last time I went to that range, and I joined an outdoor club. I go in there just to look at the selection, but I haven't bought anything since that incident. If you're going to yell at me for breaking a non-rule that has NOTHING to do with safety (since there wasn't anyone else there) and insist that I be psychic, you can kiss my hard earned dollars goodbye. Funny, I've bought 2 or 3 guns from Palmetto since then, and ordered a few more.

See, they could have just as easily asked you sternly but politely not to take pictures. Hard hard is that? There is no need to be a jerk about it, especially when safety isn't an issue.

LiquidTension
July 27, 2005, 07:26 PM
fingolfin, that was exactly my feeling; also why I haven't given them any more money.

Arkady
July 28, 2005, 02:14 AM
Usually the guys at Shooter's Choice use the PA system to explain the 'no rapid fire' rule to someone. If you do it again, they'll kick you out--but that does vary a bit depending on who is rangemaster that day. A couple of them aren't as forgiving.

Of course, having shot on their range, and seen the condition of the walls/ceiling, I can't say that I blame them. Not everyone shoots the kind of groups you described. In fact, very few people seem to.

The problem with allowing one guy to shoot rapid fire if he proves he can, and not allowing others to, is that the crappy shots will start doing it. At that point, it's pretty hard to explain why THEY aren't allowed to without embarrassing the customer, and having them speak ill of you from now until eternity.

steveracer
July 28, 2005, 08:02 AM
Here in VA Beach, I have asked guys to leave the indoor range for "Ghetto Firing" their guns right into the floor. Sparks flying, bullet fragments flying, no holes in the paper, etc.
The rangemaster here is VERY cool, and if you are a nice person and a conscientious shooter, he's your best friend. Rapid fire is never a problem, unless it's really busy, and the glocksters start their John Woo impressions. Never saw a real shooter have a single problem, but many of them have had other people booted.

Yowza
July 28, 2005, 09:37 AM
Well, I go to Shooter's Choice fairly regularly since it's so convenient to me and I've had good experiences and bad ones. Mainly it depends on who's running the range. Most of the guys there are cool IME and I never have any problems when they're working. One or two don't sit quite as well with me and sometimes I have to fight the urge to turn around and leave when I see them at the RO desk.

I'd have to agree with what Arkady said. They have their rules for a reason and that's because they've seen a lot of crazy stuff going on. I don't necessarily agree with them all (and LT's experience with the camera is just ridiculous in my opinion), but universal enforcement of the rules is a necessity, just to keep the "but you let HIM do it" stuff to a minimum.

Oh, and don't bother EVER taking a rifle to Shooter's Choice. Their rifle range is pretty much worthless.

Rick

Ryder
July 28, 2005, 10:13 AM
That whole rapid fire/slow fire thing is extremely vague.

Those training courses I've taken which give X amount of time to shoot Y amount of bullets have always been a strange experience for me. Seems no matter how slow I try to go I still end up being one of the first to empty the magazine.

Trying to align sights too long (offhand) is acutally detrimental to my accuracy. Best option has to be giving people the freedom to fire at their own natural rate as long as they are experienced and know what they are doing. This rate isn't goverened only by a person's experience however as the reoil of a specific firearm dictates what is right. I have doubts that I could safely fire a 454 casull at a rate of 1 round per second though this would have been allowed?

I wouldn't go to such a range either. I seriously detest anyone trying to impose control on me.

BullfrogKen
July 29, 2005, 05:52 AM
I guess I am real fortunate to have access to the club I shoot at. We can draw from the holster, shoot on the move, have 360 degree ranges; rapid fire shooting is just a non-issue here. Granted, I know of no other club in the greater Harrisburg area that allows such actions, and its really only practiced by the members of the NTI team, but I can't imagine not being able to practice this way.

I belonged to a club in New Freedom, PA, and gave up the membership there. It had a great 200 yard rifle range, with actual butts and all. But it had rules I couldn't stomach: no rapid fire, no drawing from a holster, no shooting humanoid sillouettes for Pete's sake! If I am going to carry concealed, and expect to practice and become proficient using a firearm in self defense applications, I want to practice someplace that affords me that opportunity, dammit.

I guess I forget how good I have it sometimes. Sorry y'all have to put up with such crap.

Double Naught Spy
July 29, 2005, 12:29 PM
Kramer, man, all that fluff about fliring, teaching your sister, being such a good shooter, etc., had ZILCH to do with the story. You violated the rapid fire rule, plain and simple. It doesn't matter where your sister is from or how far you live from the range or how good you shoot. You violated the range rules.

walking arsenal
July 29, 2005, 03:31 PM
Good job D, now grab your cane and go yell at those kids out in the street. :neener:

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