[natedog]

Just got home from the range. I've been renting different kinds of handguns to see what I like. Well, the last time I did this was december. So I went to the range with the intent of renting a Kimber Custom 2, and the guy behind the counter informs me that the handgun law that went into effect in January (where you have to take a test and pay a $25 tax) also includes rental handguns. :fire: . If it hadn't been for that test and tax, i would have rented that handgun, ran outside, and robbed a bank! Phew! Another crisis averted, though. Thank God for Gray Davis!

[Sven]

Doesn't sound right to me - which range was this?

Can someone confirm?

[gudel]

i was the impression that the HSC is needed to purchase a gun. Since they wanted you to demonstrate "safe handling" before you pick up the gun, it may well be that it is required but i'm not so sure about it.
did you have to buy the ammo from them as well?

[Standing Wolf]

I miss the People's Republic of California about 2% as much as I miss a migraine head ache.

[Airwolf]

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12800.htm

ARTICLE 8 HANDGUN SAFETY CERTIFICATE (COMMENCING WITH SECTION 12800)

12800. It is the intent of the Legislature in enacting this article to require that persons who obtain handguns have a basic familiarity with those firearms, including, but not limited to, the safe handling and storage of those firearms. It is not the intent of the Legislature to require a handgun safety certificate for the mere possession of a firearm.

12801. (a) As used in this article, the following definitions shall apply:

(1) "Department" means the Department of Justice.

(2) "DOJ Certified Instructor" or "certified instructor" means a person designated as a handgun safety instructor by the Department of Justice pursuant to subdivision (d) of Section 12804.

(b) No person shall do either of the following:

(1) Purchase or receive any handgun, except an antique firearm, as defined in paragraph (16) of subsection (a) of Section 921 of Title 18 of the United States Code, without a valid handgun safety certificate.

(2) Sell, deliver, loan, or transfer any handgun, except an antique firearm, as defined in paragraph (16) of subsection (a) of Section 921 of Title 18 of the United States Code, to any person who does not have a valid handgun safety certificate.

(c) Any person who violates subdivision (b) is guilty of a misdemeanor.

(d) The provisions of this section are cumulative, and shall not be construed as restricting the application of any other law. However, an act or omission punishable in different ways by different provisions of this code shall not be punished under more than one provision.


I'd say they are considering renting to be a loan in this case since there is nothing in the code that says "rent" or "rental".

IANAL. Someone who is want to jump in?

[10-Ring]

Doesn't sound right to me either. The range I frequent rents guns to1st time shooters all the time w/o taxing or testing them :scrutiny:

Sounds like it might be tim to find another range!

[SouthpawShootr]

I think it is time to give up on California. All gunowners should leave the state and the US army should blow it up in an effort to prevent corruption of the greater gene pool.

[Serpico]

Blow up California....Gee...I thought all the major terrorists were from outside our country.....by the way, there is an awfully large west coast gene pool fighting for you half way across the world...

[gudel]

perhaps it is inappropriate to suggest leaving california just becase a range requires you to have an HSC.
it's not a big deal really. gas is expensive here, but it doesn't justify to move out of the US to the middle east where the oil is.

There are other great opportunity that California offers :)
hot blonde women for one. (notice i'm in santa barbara).

back to the topic, where was this range?

[natedog]

it is nice to be able to drive to the beach, mountains, beach, forests, and um beach too! ;)

[Zundfolge]

California has the same problem as Iraq.

A corrupt and evil leadership that keeps its people under its boot.


The solution to the California problem is the same as the Iraq problem ... regime change (although I think it can be done in California without any "Shock and Awe").

[Number 6]

The range you frequent is misinformed. I go to a range here in Southern California and took a 1st time shooter there last week. He rented a gun by himself and was not charged differently than any time I rented a gun last year. I do not have the new certificate and have rented a gun from that same range after the first of the year and was not charged any extra fee.

Our politicians are not any more corrupt than in any other state. They are just far more misinformed when it comes to firearms than in most states.

[Kruzr]

I agree, it sounds like your range is taking the strictest interpretation they can. The range I shoot at doesn't have that requirement.

[Tamara]

Hot blondes and the beach sure do make up for having your Second Amendment rights trampled worse than the citizens of most any other state (except maybe the inmates of the PRNJ). "It may be a gulag, but the guards are cute and there's never a line for the shuffleboard courts." :D


Maybe someday we can liberate the oppressed citizens suffering under the Caliban.

I understand we have American troops stationed there already?

[Serpico]

I'm with Gudel and Natedog....This place rocks with more to offer than any other state...not just the weather....and I'll take hot blondes over cold steel any day of the week...but it would be nice to have both...hey, I do have both...bitchin!

[WESHOOT2]

Move.
Or no whining.

That said, I understand the concept of change from within. However, dedication and sacrifice are required.

Or, off to the beach, dude.

[461]

While California does indeed have many insane laws on the books, it's hardly as bad as folks make it out to be. Look at D.C., New York, Mass, we're hardly alone. As an honest man I've yet to have any real problem getting anything I wanted here.

Over the last six years or so of living out here I've bought and sold dozens of gunsand the only times I've had any problems were with the dealers not understanding the laws.

Believe me, I don't support any of these laws and would be quite happy to see them all go away, just want to let folks know that there are a whole lot of gun owners in California and we're getting on just fine. The NRA out here is working very hard for our rights even if they don't get to show a lot of wins.

[TheLastBoyScout]

it is nice to be able to drive to the beach, mountains, beach, forests, and um beach too!

There are East Coast states where this is possible.
Within two hours of my house, there are all those things, albeit on a smaller scale.

But then again, PA is one of the best states going for regular shooters, and we are second in NRA membership only to TEXAS

;) :D :p :cool:

[ajacobs]

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5303

[Zundfolge]

To all you PRKers who keep bringing up the "blonde beach babes", I have 3 words for you

SOUTH BEACH FLORIDA :neener:


more beach babes then you can shake a stick at AND CCW.

[Serpico]

But it's too humid to play with the girls or carry a gun comfortably..:neener:

[Don Gwinn]

Change from within only works if you try to change things. Talking about change from within while saying "but it's not really all that bad" doesn't make a lot of sense.

"As an honest man I've not had any problem getting anything I wanted here."

Does this mean you buy guns illegally? Or does this mean you have no interest in AR15s, SKSs, AKs or the "wrong" handguns or hi-cap mags? I was under the impression that it was getting pretty hard (or impossible) to buy such things legally in CA.

[Tamara]

As an honest man I've yet to have any real problem getting anything I wanted here.

Suppose you see a gun you want? Then, a day later, see another one you want? Then, a week after that, see another one you want?

As an honest man, why shouldn't you be able to buy them when you see them.

Suppose your neighbour or friend wants to sell you a gun. Why should you both have to troop off to a state representative like a couple that wants to get married? Why shouldn't you just give him the money and take the gun?

[Byron Quick]

Hmm.

As an honest man, I don't believe that California would want me if I brought my firearms. I would be a multiple felon. I am 100% legal where I live.

I won't be setting a foot in California. Until y'all free your state, you're welcome to its "benefits."

Remember the old saw about boiling frogs:rolleyes:

[461]

You folks are a tad bit harsh don't you think? I never alluded to buying anything illegally nor would I ever attempt to.

As a matter of fact no, AR's, SKS's & AK's don't interest me in the least. Does that mean I think you should be restricted? No. If a person wants more than one gun a month, great. My wife is way more restrictive in this area than the state anyhow.

Did you miss the part where I said I don't agree with these laws? Did you miss the part where I stated we're working very ####### the issues?

Until WE free OUR State? Did we somehow become not part of The United States?

Read a post before becoming a divisive mob. Guess what, if I wasn't a strong supporter of the second ammendment I wouldn't even be on this board. Bickering amongst ourselves is a sure way to lose all our rights. To act as though California gun owners are responsible for the poor legislation in this state is as much garbage as saying U.S. gun owners are responsible for 10 round mags.

I truly agree with the eradication of these insane laws, but leaving the state and allowing it to become a haven for anti gun cancer is not intelligent for the country. By the way, did I mention that I don't live here by choice? No, I'm a member of the U.S. Armed Forces, you know, the ones that make free speech and gun rights possible for the rest of you.


Edited to point out that the ##### is ##########, nothing innapropriate.

Edited again because the software just won't allow the word "hard" to be paired with the word "on".

[gudel]

i notice it's the people who are not from cali that are more vocal about this, how about leave it alone?

but to natedog, no biggie, just get it, $25+tax, get it done with, good for 5 years, so about $5 per year. easy test, virtually anyone can pass it. and where you at natedog?

[larryw]

Yes, its also sad that the "moderators" seem to be taking point in the divisive nature of this thread.

Divide and conquer. Sarah Brady would be proud.

[Tamara]

Yeah, gosh, I said that California gunlaws are silly, and much worse than most of the rest of the US.

Was I wrong? :confused:

I didn't say "leave".

I didn't say "California gun owners are hosers".

I just said "Let's not pretend the situation there is okay".

Everyone's fond of saying "As California goes, so goes the rest of the nation". Well, I ain't going that way. (...and I'd be lying if I said that it doesn't disturb me just a little to see California gun owners saying "Well, these laws aren't too bad. I mean, who really needs private sales or magazines that hold more than ten rounds or AR-15s, anyway?" :uhoh: )

[gudel]

i think i got something for the original poster, i quote from cali firearms law:


It is unlawful for a person who is not a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Penal Code section 12071, to sell, loan, or otherwise transfer a firearm to a non-licensed person unless the sale, loan, or transfer is completed through a licensed firearms dealer or law
enforcement agency. (Penal Code §§ 12071, 12072, 12082, 12084.)

exceptions:
The dealer licensing and reporting requirements do not apply to the loan of any firearm in the following instances:
Loans of a firearm for the purpose of shooting at targets on the premises of a target
facility if the firearm is kept within the premises of the target facility at all times. (Penal Code § 12078(h).)


tell that range to read that section! :D

[Airwolf]

Sorry gudel,

That section covers the dealer licensing not the HSC. It's saying that a range that rents guns doesn't need an FFL and all the state issued BS just to do that.

It's still a gray area as far as I can see since the HSC law says "loan" unless a rental is considered a loan in legal terms.

[461]

Ok, I took my ball and stomped off, now I'm back and we can get back to this thing.

Apologize if I got a bit too offended, I just took the response to my original comment a little hard.

That said, my original posting hit this thing on the head. My biggest problems have been because the dealers didn't understand the laws. Clearly that is what happened with this range owner. I truly feel that if you're going to be a dealer then you must take the time to know your business.

As a small business owner myself I feel an obligation to not only know my products but to know about the legalities involved. I don't want this to be taken as a bash against the dealers, but some of them are spreading misinformation and blaming it on teh state. While the state is no angel, everyone deserves the truth.

Heck, let's just go shootin'

[Airwolf]

461 I agree totally.

Problem is if you do a search here, on TFL or on most any firearms related site you'll find that a common thread is that a LOT of gun dealers, shop owners and salespeople not only don't know very much about guns and gun laws, but they tend to be fountains of disinformation as well.

I've seen threads where people have contacted Cal DOJ regarding firearms questions only to have the government drone on the phone read the law back to them, offering no help as to its interpretation. When the agencies that supposedly are responsible for interpreting and enforcing the laws can't (or won't) do anything but be parrots it doesn't bode well for everyone else effected by this.

One more step toward having to have a lawyer on retainer and speed dial in order to even function in the day-to-day world.

[Byron Quick]

Divisive? Moi?

I didn't tell anyone to leave California. I did state that I won't go there as I keep firearms in my immediate possession that are, I believe, felonies in California. I have no intention of changing my habits just to visit California. There are a number of states that I will not visit for the same reason.

Nor was the hope that y'all will one day kick out the bums in Sacremento an implication that California is not a part of the US. Rather, it was acknowledgement of the federal system we have. There is only one way that gunowners outside of California can affect California law. Electing a Congress that passes federal law that the Second Amendment means what it says and, yes, that it applies to California. I personally believe that it is more likely that y'all can do it on a state level before it will happen on a national level.

But, guys, admit it. The California legislature is a snake pit that is rapidly ruining a wonderful state

[Serpico]

Byron's post got me thinking..now I'm curious...how many people won't visit a state simply because you can't carry there? Does that also pertain to world travel? Would anyone miss touring a beautiful country like Italy or Greece because you can't carry a firearm?

[Tamara]

how many people won't visit a state simply because you can't carry there?

I am unaware of any place I can't carry, although I understand that there are places I may not. I also understand that there are metal detectors at airports.

I have done a fair amount of air travel in the past, but for the forseeable future, as long as air travel requires me to submit myself to a host of indignities, it looks like I won't be going anyplace I can't drive. Seeing beautiful and historic Italy and Greece is simply not worth it if the entrance fee is a cavity search.

[Don Gwinn]

461, I did not post that you had said anything about illegal activity. I apologize if I gave the impression that such was something you mentioned, rather than a point I brought up with no prompting from you. I was simply asking a question. You stated that as an honest man, you can get everything you want. That has to mean one of two things:

A. Honest people can get whatever guns they want in California. Clearly this is not possible through legal means, so you'd have to be buying guns illegally.

B. You don't consider an AR15, an SKS, the "wrong" handgun or full-cap mags to be something an "honest man" would want.

I was simply asking which one. If neither is true, then please explain what is.


Perhaps I'm not as patient as I should be. I live in Illinois, and I'm just about fed up with being told not to worry by the antigun side (because the upcoming ban won't affect my hunting shotgun) and that the sky is falling by the other side (but ONLY because they claim hunting shotguns would be banned--not because I'll be a felon for having an AR-15 in the cabinet.)

Frankly, I don't think it's any more divisive for me to say that California's laws suck and do affect "honest men" than it is for you to say that California's laws suck but they don't affect "honest men." If one side of the argument can be advanced, surely so can the other?

[larryw]

CA's handgun laws are awful (not my choice in words, but I'd hate to have THR's Grandma pop a gasket). I'm the first to admit that. And there are many of us who are working on it.

Perhaps, like Don I lack the patience I need. But then, I'm sick and tired of frequent quotes like, "I won't be setting a foot in California. Until y'all free your state, you're welcome to its 'benefits.'"

I've spent time in most states in this nation. I have yet to find one that offers my family the same quality of life and economic opportunity. Gun laws can be changed, and a shift in power is underway. (Its fun watching the Liberals destroy their power base, I can only shake my head at their stupidity.)

Unless you can walk into your gun store and buy a weapon without having to fill in a federal form "like a couple that wants to get married" or pick up an M-60 at Wal-Mart, you also are having your Second Amendment rights violated. Lemme guess, you don't want a new Ma Deuce? Does the level of the violation matter? Can one be only slightly oppressed? Or less dead?

CA's recent administration has been terrible, but lest we need to be reminded of the origin of Gore and Daly and Carter, we're not alone there (Feinstein, Boxer, Peolsi, etc... :rolleyes: ). All are a perfect example of why this nation is a republic and not a democracy. And I keep reminding myself of Ronald Reagan's home state.

I suddenly have the urge to send some lead down range. After that, I'm going to full my gun-o-the-month quota with a new SW360 (Tamara, I'm part of the 30,000, and I vote). Nice living in a place where I can do that at my pleasure.

Apologies if I ruffled any feathers, but my sentiment remains.

Larry

[krept]

I grew up in SoCal and was al local at Oceanside and Camp Pendleton beaches for the 10 years or so that I was into surfing/bodyboarding (got to compete - NSSA and CSA, got my name in some mags). The beaches are good (especially places like Lower Trestles, Salt Creek, Seaside Reef, etc.) but they aren't that great. Of course as you know if you are into surfing... the better the peak, the bigger the crowd and the bigger the crowd the more aggressive the vibe and more of a hassle catching a good (not great) wave becomes.

If you are talking about the women, many many college campuses have great hotties that are far more approachable and much less superficial than the gals that spend hours on the sand. I never went to the beach with the intention of laying on the sand anyhow.

I also got to visit Julian and Palomar Mountain and the mountain (Kaye Springs?) on Pendleton that has native heards of buffalo. Got to stay in the dorms at SDSU, helped throw undergrounds in San Diego and met many interesting people and saw a lot of cool secret places along the way.

I moved about 6 years ago to Arizona to be with my fiancee. I still miss the beach. My mother and sister live in SoCal and I visit them every year and have seen how everything has changed. And how the population has expanded and expanded and expanded. How the housing market and prices in general have gone through the roof.

Guns are just things, just tools. But RIGHTS... like the right to defend your home instead of running away from it... the right to CCW, open carry, etc. etc. ARE important to me. I didn't move from CA to get away from these issues, but I will probably not move back because of them.

I absolutely know the pleasures that California has to offer and I can honestly say... nice place to visit... but I'm not too sure I'd want to live there again.

Other people's opinions don't really matter as long as you are happy with what you have and the way things are going. I have found that I can be happy in pretty much any climate weather-wise as long as I don't feel my rights are being stepped on.

cheers... sorry if my ramble was too off topic ;)

[hops]

If one 'strictly' interpets the screwball law then yes, you can't rent or loan a hand gun to another party. I actually joked about it to my best friend that when I visted the PRK and went shooting with him, borrowing his .357 mag to shoot.

I lived / grew up (from my teens) in the PRK for 20 years. PRK's hot blondes are so overated. Most of them are phoney's anyway. Gimme a blue-eyed brunette with brains any day (was married to one once). I do miss the PRK's landscape, but housing is not afforable. To move back from where I'm now would require at least a 55 pct salary increase to afford the same house in somewhat the same location. Never mind the guns I'd have to sell.

[Al Thompson]

Not to forget that any place that won't let me sell a firearm with out going through a dealer bugs me greatly.

[461]

Don Gwinn-

Please don't get me wrong, I never meant for someone to think that I felt honest men didn't need AR's or SKS's. I've just not had the desire for one. The way I meant it was that I haven't been turned down for anything I've wanted because I'm clean. I've had some friends who have been turned down due to past "indiscretions"

I firmly believe that any small arms no matter the rate of fire or quantity in the mag should be attainable by any citizen of this country for any purpose they see fit so long as I have the right to also defend myself as I see fit.

[Serpico]

"I firmly believe that any small arms no matter the rate of fire or quantity in the mag should be attainable by any citizen of this country for any purpose they see fit so long as I have the right to also defend myself as I see fit."

Any citizen? Are you saying that anyone should be able to buy whatever they want because you can defend yourself? What about those people who can't?

As long as our society continues to get crazier and more violent, we will see increased regulations.....if people started running each other down on the street with their cars, you'd eventually see a 2 week waiting period for a Pontiac also.....

I'm for gun rights, but when rights get abused, they do get taken away....I learned that in kindegarten.....

[Tamara]

I'm for gun rights, but when rights get abused, they do get taken away....I learned that in kindegarten.....

'Splain to me, please, why somebody else abusing their rights should result in my rights being denied? :confused:

(PS: I gradjumicated from kindergarten some time ago; I expect to play by grownup rules now... ;) )

[Serpico]

I'm not for the gungrabbers....just explaining that restictions come based on actions...most states with lax gun laws don't need them...so those of you who live in them are lucky...if Arizona had the kindof gun violence we have in CA, I doubt they would hand out CCW permits for 90 bucks and a 3 hour class..ironic that the states you really need a gun in are the toughest to get them in...I can carry a handgun in CA but my rights are being abused by not being able to own a 30 round AR which I would love to have for some serious plinking...but how do you safeguard a populace against those that don't find shooting cans enough? If we could identify the wackos before hand like in Minority Report we might be okay, but in the mean time. what do we do with disgruntled worlers who decide to shoot up their office or some sicko with his sights on a school yard? Sadly, as gun owners we are seen as a group and therefore, anyone who uses a gun is in our club...whether for good or bad...:(

[Fair 'n Square]

IMHO, the REASON Arizona doesn't have the problems California has is because their rights aren't as curtailed. I mean, Phoenix isn't what you would call a little village. Yet the Arizona legislature doesn't see fit to perform gun-ectomies on their populace.

[hondo68]

Rights can not be "taken away", only infringed by illegitimate so called "laws" and governments.

The word "small" does NOT precede "arms" in the Second Amendment. The Constitution does GRANT congress the power to restrict the military's arms. However, "the RIGHT of THE PEOPLE to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED".

[railroader]

Serpico, I have one question. I see that you are posting from Los Angeles. How is it that you are able to carry? I am also from southern california and from everything I have heard obtaining a permit in Los Angeles is impossible. Mark

[Serpico]

you are correct, but I am a reserve deputy sheriff...

[krept]

• And speaking of quality of life, a new comparative report on crime ought to give Phoenix leaders the willies.

Sperling's Best Places uses FBI uniform crime statistics to compare cities. San Diego is a useful sister city for Phoenix, being of similar size and (until recently) having a similarly narrow economic base of tourism and real estate.

Phoenix suffered 750 violent crimes per 100,000 population. San Diego showed 566, closer to the national average. In terms of property crimes, Phoenix had 6,746 and San Diego, 3,096. Phoenix also had three times as many murders.

This was from the Arizona Republic's 3/20/03 edition and is a good example of citizen on citizen violence.

A police officer in Phoenix is more likely to get attacked by a suspect than in any other of the nation's 10 largest cities, and also is more likely to shoot and kill.


From 1996 to 2000, Phoenix police killed an average of 3.33 people per 1,000 officers, making them more than 2 1/2 times as likely to use deadly force than officers in bigger cities like Los Angeles and New York, according an Arizona Republic analysis.

In the same period, an annual average of 32 out of every 100 officers were assaulted. Nearly 800 Phoenix officers were assaulted last year. Police shot one in six people who confronted them with guns, knives or other dangerous weapons.

source here (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0126shootings-main260.html) This is a good example of gangbanger-type violence against LEOs.

Again, these studies may be flawed statistically and LA may be a lot worse... but... this is clearly enough fodder for motivated individuals in Arizona to use to take our rights away (or more correctly infringe upon them as stated above). The difference is that the State recognizes and supports our RKBA, something I believe California wants to restrict.

[dvnv]

Serpico:

Do you really believe the gun laws in CA prevent the kind of crime you are talking about?

I don't see how taking a 10 minute test before buying a handgun has much positive effect. I also don't see the point of the "drop test"...IMO, all it does is make it next to impossible to purchase some of those really good old S&Ws, Colts, High Standards, etc...

If I were around some "wacko" who started shooting people, I would be praying that someone nearby was carrying and could put a quick end to it. Not too likely in CA, specially in the county I live in, but I would still be hoping for it...dvnv

[461]

Serpico-

I believe it's called the second ammendment isn't it?

[tetchaje1]

As a matter of fact no, AR's, SKS's & AK's don't interest me in the least.

Blasphemer! ;)

[jimbo]

gudel,

And I had always thought there were hot blondes in every state. Silly me! I just thought the Cali blondes were better swimmers, what with all the silicone floatation devices and all...:eek:

[TheEgg]

Quotes from 461

By the way, did I mention that I don't live here by choice? No, I'm a member of the U.S. Armed Forces, you know, the ones that make free speech and gun rights possible for the rest of you.


As a small business owner myself I feel an obligation to not only know my products but to know about the legalities involved.

Just curious -- how do you as an active duty military man (I assume active duty because you say you are in California against your will), manage to find time to run a business? What kind of business? What branch of the armed forces?

Just curious.

[461]

tetchaje1- No blaspemy at all, just because I'm not interested in them dosen't mean I don't support your right to own them.


TheEgg- most folks in the military have to work two jobs to get by, it's not right just a fact of life. Check out the link in my signature.


Edited as I forgot to mention my job. I'm a Chief Petty Officer in the U.S. Coast Guard. 14 years service.

[Serpico]

dvnv...I never said they pevent crimes...I just said the regulations are in response to the abuses....whether or not it does anything is besides the point...

[Al Thompson]

hmmmm..... That's pretty much the point, IMHO. Sort of like having vote tests simply becouse some folks can't vote responsibly. Or a government censor as some folks don't use the 1st Amendment responsibly.

Check the moderators out. We spend a great amount of time and effort simply to advocate 2nd Amendment rights. No one on this site gets paid to work here.

It would be surprising if we didn't take point.

[Beorn]

The gun-laws in California are not the most permissive, this much is true.

How many of you are members of the NRA and/or the CRPA?

I myself just sent off for my California Rifle and Pistol Association membership. They are affiliated with the NRA, but are a separate entity. They are the watchdogs of the shooting front in our state. My recommendation is: support your politicians who support you, and remove those that don't.

I am a teacher, and as such, I am surrounded by liberal thinking. But, I stand firm to my beliefs and I assist however I can by voting. It may not be much, but it's a start. Remember, there are very liberal pockets of existence in California (Hollywood, San Fransisco) BUT this was the state where Ronald Reagan was Governor for 3-4 terms...

I was not born here, and I came for employment. I lost several "rights" by moving here from the South and Midwest (I lived in Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi, Oklahoma, and Tennessee from 1978 til 1998).

I love my new state, even with it's higher cost of living and restrictive laws. But, I will also try to make it more permissive for things other than alternative lifestyles (which don't bother me either; I reckon I'm a "I won't bother you if you don't bother me" sort of guy).

Sorry for the rant.

[Sven]

NRA EPL
CRPA 3-Year

CRPA has a HUGE bang for the buck as they give a detailed listing of the legislative battle as it unfolds... this is communicated through "The Firing Line" - no not the forum - the newsletter.

I give CRPA my personal vote in the category "BEST INVESTMENT FOR YOUR FUTURE FREEDOM". Well, just short of taking that money and applying it towards renting a U Haul and leaving this beautiful - but crippled - state.

[dvnv]

Serpico: Thanks for the explanation, I understand your point...strongly disagree with the passing of these restrictive and ineffective laws, but do understand your point.

I have lived in CA quite some time and have seen the balance of power shift from conservative to liberal over the years...I don't think CA will be voting republican for the forseable future. dvnv

[461]

NRA- yes for over ten years.

CRPA-No, but looking into it as we speak. Thanks for putting it on my radar screen.

[Poohgyrr]

That Arizona Republic article (cited by krept) touches on how dumb some of these crooks are. I have to wonder about them sometimes......

In good fun though, two things:

1. With our kids, my family is now fifth generation here, starting out as ranchers & farmers. How long have wackos from out of state been moving here, starting their like minded families, and over running us right minded ;) natives. Especially in the L.A. and Bay areas?? Then they vote in these crazy laws... We oughta send them back- well, no not back, I don't want to wish that on you guys in the other 49 States- O.K., send them to Singapore :)....
2. Our Central Valley feeds a huge chunk of the World, and our economy is about the 7th largest worldwide. Seems like two good braggin rights that we should keep for the U.S.A...

Otherwise, our best. And remember, Reagan !!!!

PS: Right minded folks are always very welcome to move here :D
It's just the crazies who get a Greyhound ticket elsewhere.

[Beorn]

California is now (as of late 2002) the 5th largest economy on the planet. If this state falls totally to the darkness, many other states might not be far behind.

[461]

Just Joined the California Rifle and Pistol Association. Got an online signup and it's only eighteen bucks. Give it a shot.

http://www.crpa.org/

[Prof]

Have lived in California since 1959. Have all my family here except our son and his family as he's in the Army (and is in Iraq as I write this). I live in a medium-sized city in a largely agricultural area. I have a CCW and belong to two ranges within 15 minutes of my house. I vote and support the NRA and CRPA. I teach at a college but have converted some and found many others there who are gun people :what: ! However, I highly resent the laws passed here and will be leaving in six years when I retire. My freedoms mean more to me than the beauty and opportunities of this fair state. I'll miss Disneyland the most!! :cool:

[Poohgyrr]

Prof,

I wish more folks like you would move here and raise like minded families :)... We plan to retire elsewhere too, but it'll take a few more years than for your family. I'll miss the mountains and Pacific, and look forward to a friendlier atmosphere.