.45 GAP vs .45 ACP


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zookrider
July 26, 2005, 09:53 PM
OK ballistics experts, how does the .45 GAP measure up against the .45 ACP. Has anybody done any comparative testing? Stopping power? Accuracy? etc.

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nico
July 26, 2005, 10:02 PM
do a search for more information as this topic generates disputes without fail. The facts are:
1. GAP has comparable velocities (with the same bullets) to ACP, so it performs comparably
2. GAP is loaded at ACP +P pressures (which means ACP +P will outperform GAP)
3. GAP can utilize 9mm doublestack sized frames
4. GAP factory ammo is more expensive than ACP, but it can be reloaded pretty easily, which eliminates the cost difference iirc.

other than that, it's all about personal opinion. My opinion is GAP is useful if you really want a compact gun chambered in .45. In a full sized gun, I see no advantage of GAP over ACP.

Shootcraps
July 26, 2005, 11:14 PM
It's not as good. :evil:

only1asterisk
July 27, 2005, 01:31 AM
There shouldn't be any difference in terminal effect; you're pushing the same bullets at the same velocity. You’ll pay a price for being an early adopter. Ammo cost are prohibitive.

David

Croyance
July 27, 2005, 04:13 AM
As has been said, the .45 GAP has the same velocities for a given bullet weight as a .45 ACP. This does not include +p .45 ACP loadings, just standard pressure.
The bullet diameters and the bullets themselves are the same as those used by .45 ACP cartridges.
Because the cartridge length is shorter, the .45 GAP has less space for additional poweder. The increases in pressure would be bad.

So, given the same bullets and velocities, terminal effect would be the same.

BioDemon
July 27, 2005, 05:47 AM
The 45gap is close to the 45acp. BUT If You Want Absloutaly The Most then +P 45acp has more punch. If you find you have smaller hands and you like the feel of a 45gap in a sertain platform then go for it.

Brad Johnson
July 28, 2005, 02:01 PM
I like the GAP because it allows .45 ACP performance in a frame that fits my hand. I have extremely big hands but short, stubby fingers. With a few exceptions, .45 ACP sized frames force me to rotate my grip slightly in order for to get my finger on the trigger. On the other hand, most 9mm and 40. size frames are just right (the Springfield XD fits like it was custom molded for my hand). Being able to get these smaller frames and still have .45 ACP comparable ballistics is definitely a plus for me!

Brad

TimboKhan
July 30, 2005, 03:07 AM
You know, I won't just disparage this cartridge outright, as I know some, like Brad Johnson, have real, honest, practical reasons for liking it. However, for me, this cartridge just seems like a solution looking for a problem. I have read the reports in the magazines, and I have looked at some of the data on it. The end result is that I just cannot see any practical reason for me to give this cartridge a second thought. It doesn't suck, but it doesn't do anything for me.

Timbo

nico
July 30, 2005, 09:16 AM
^^That's pretty much the way I see it. .45GAP doesn't really appeal to me, but I can see how it would suit the needs of other people. I think it's a lot more useful than .357sig though ::ducks:: , and there's a good number of people who like that cartridge.

Double Maduro
July 30, 2005, 02:10 PM
Brad Johnson,

With a few exceptions, .45 ACP sized frames force me to rotate my grip slightly in order for to get my finger on the trigger.

Give the Taurus pt145 millenium pro a look.

10+1 in .45 and it fit my big hands like it was made for them.

DM

Brad Johnson
July 30, 2005, 03:48 PM
Brad Johnson,


Quote:
With a few exceptions, .45 ACP sized frames force me to rotate my grip slightly in order for to get my finger on the trigger.



Give the Taurus pt145 millenium pro a look.

10+1 in .45 and it fit my big hands like it was made for them.

DM

The PT145 is one of the "few exceptions" I was talking about. :D

Brad

Burt Blade
July 30, 2005, 05:50 PM
Acrimony
Constantly
Provoked


Generates
Acrimony
Perpetually


That sums it up nicely. :D

USPCompact45
July 31, 2005, 08:07 AM
One of the best benefits of the 45 gap is that it is probably the best choice when it comes to subcompacts packing a punch i.e. glock 39. Hopefully springfield will make a xd-45 subcompact. As a result, I think the 45 gap will stay. It really benefits the subcompact market which is quite significant for ccw.

Sure there are subcompacts in 45 acp but they seem to have more problems (smaller 1911s). Maybe the exceptions are the sw cs45 and the taurus pt145 but I'm not fans of them.




Otherwise, if you're going full size, I prefer the 45acp.

TimboKhan
July 31, 2005, 05:25 PM
Hopefully springfield will make a xd-45 subcompac

Don't qoute me on this, but I swear I just read an article saying that Springfield is doing just that. I tried looking around my room for that magazine, and I can't find it, so it may just be a faulty memory issue.

USPCompact45
July 31, 2005, 07:23 PM
I hope they are making the xd-45 subcompact. I know they're making a micro 1911 in GAP but not sure about the xd. Oh well, maybe we'll find out later.

geekWithA.45
August 3, 2005, 06:11 PM
It seems to me that given that the diameters of the .45acp and .45gap are the same, the .45gap doesn't lend itself to double stack design anymore than the .45acp does. As for the shallower (well, I can't say less wide, can I?) grips, well, that's a matter of personal ergonomics.

BluesBear
August 4, 2005, 06:18 AM
.45 GAP vs .45 ACP ?

Ask this queston again in 99 years.


There will still be ammo companies loading .45acp.

TwoGun
August 4, 2005, 11:35 PM
My understanding was that Glock devised the GAP round because they wanted to decrease the grip size of thier full sized .45. However there is a hollow area behind the magazine well, more or less where the mainspring housing would be on a 1911. Robar in AZ has been doing a modification on them for some time now where they do away with the wasted space and reduce the size of the grip, so to me, that justification was so much bunk.

Yes the Gap meets, and sometimes exceeds the .45ACP, so long as you go with bullets 200 grains or below. Try compairing them with 230 grain bullets, if you can get one in a GAP, and see how they perform.


Springfield does indeed make a little 1911 in .45GAP. But you cannot use bullets over 200 grains or the overall bullet length won't allow you load them into the magazine.

In my humble opinion, the GAP is solution looking for a proplem. But if you have the problem and the GAP fits, the bill, they by all means go for it.

JohnKSa
August 5, 2005, 12:20 AM
Initial reports said the GAP wouldn't be able to duplicate .45ACP with 230gr bullets--then Winchester came out with a 230gr GAP load that did... So it is now completely accurate to say that the GAP duplicates standard pressure .45ACP performance.

Pointblank
August 5, 2005, 11:15 AM
There's more to the GAP argument than just grip size. The brass is reinforced to reduce the chance of a kaboom in the Glock chamber which is not fully supported. Glock 21s and 30s have been known to deconstruct in a hurry.

GEM
August 5, 2005, 12:37 PM
Jeff Cooper says he likes the 45 GAP in the latest Guns and Ammo :eek: :eek:

Says he won't buy one as he has enough 45 ACP guns but thinks it is a good idea.

Thus, a stake is thrust into the heart of the 45 ACP purists as the old wise man and theological center of the 1911 movement does the Martin Luther to the Church of the ACP!

BluesBear
August 5, 2005, 04:50 PM
Don't forget that Col. Cooper was also one of the driving forces behind the first 10mm cartridge. But it still didn't replace the .45acp in his life.

C. H. Luke
August 6, 2005, 01:52 PM
hat Gapola thing was designed for only one reason, to make Gaston & Bobby mucho Money from the LE markets. It may duplicate some or all of the ACP std. loads but now that data is appearing in new manuals check the differences in pressures required.

Only experience have with the GAP other than shooting one once when only two mfg. had ammo for it, is finding cases mixed in with "good" .45 brass. Reload 'em as Dummy's and hand them out at local Matches. Always great for a quick & good laugh!

The last couple of GSSF Matches have shot , their side-match was now not really a side-match as you could only shoot it if you used their sample.....you guessed it, GAPGlock!

Glock shoulda spent their time and money developing a decent trigger/fire control group, IMO!

JohnKSa
August 6, 2005, 08:49 PM
check the differences in pressures required.That was heavily publicized up front--why would one need to check the reloading manuals to find that out?Reload 'em as Dummy's and hand them out at local Matches.Unless you mean you're putting your name on the box, you meant to write: 'dummies'. ;)Always great for a quick & good laugh!Good way to train people not to shoot other people's reloads I guess...

TwoGun
August 9, 2005, 12:25 AM
True, Glock chambers are not fully supported, neither are numeours other .45 chambers. You don't really have a problem with them using standard pressure .45 loads.

Okay so Winchester came out with a .45GAP with a 230 Gr. round. It still won't fit into the Springfield pistol and I suspect that nobody will create a 230 Gr GAP in +P.

I'm not saying that the GAP is a bad round, its fine round as it emulates the old .45ACP. For the vast bulk of us though, you simply don't gain anything over the older round. If you have small hands or work in a law enforcement department that doesn't allow anything but the Glock then it could very easily be the best choice. I personally don't have those restrictions on me, so like Jeff Cooper, I won't be buying one anytime soon.

MachIVshooter
August 11, 2005, 02:56 AM
With 185 or 200 gr. pills, the GAP is comparable to the standard ACP. It suffers with 230 gr. slugs. That said, the GAP will never achieve the 600 + ft./lbs. that a .45 ACP can dish out with +P loads.

Pointblank
August 13, 2005, 08:36 PM
The GAP pistols are made for the higher pressures. Most 1911s out there are not going to stand up long to the .45acp +P.

BluesBear
August 14, 2005, 04:29 AM
A quality made and properly sprung 1911 pattern pistol (in other words, one made to original specifications) will stand up to a whole lot of properly loaded +p ammo.

The point is that in order to achieve .45Gap performance .45 acp pistold don't have to withstand ANY +p pressures. But if a pistol chambered in .45gaston wants to achieve .45acp+P performance it would have to endure very high pressures.

And most of them just aren't up to it.

denfoote
August 14, 2005, 06:19 AM
That's all I have to say on the matter!!

Ky Larry
August 14, 2005, 09:35 AM
If the .45 GAP turns your crank, buy it. If not, who cares?

conan
August 14, 2005, 10:45 AM
Pick up a Glock model 21(45acp), and the grip is way to fat for a lot of people. Pick up a glock model 17(9mm) and is much nicer. Pick up a glock model 37, 38(45gap) and it feels like a 17 :)

MachIVshooter
August 14, 2005, 10:41 PM
Pick up a Glock model 21(45acp), and the grip is way to fat for a lot of people. Pick up a glock model 17(9mm) and is much nicer. Pick up a glock model 37, 38(45gap) and it feels like a 17

Pick up a 1911, and you'll shun Gastons creations 'til the day you die :D

Pointblank
August 16, 2005, 05:55 PM
Pick up a 1911 that you spent a thousand dollars on and it just might be dependable right out of the box.. (if you're lucky) :D

Shootcraps
August 16, 2005, 06:25 PM
Now fellas. It ain't about 1911 vs Glock. That dead horse is being beaten in another thread. ;)

I would like to try the Springfield pistol and see how it shoots.

happy old sailor
August 17, 2005, 11:55 AM
i like the idea of the gap. if one had no 1911s, it would be worth looking at. or, so it seems to me. the 200/230 grain discussion is lost on me as im not hunting large animals with either. and, with hands large enough to use the standard 1911, i still prefer the flat mainspring housing and believe the gap and i would gee haw. however, i am full up on 1911s and have no plan, none, to switch. no 1911 ?, take an open minded look

cowpuncher/pi
August 17, 2005, 12:09 PM
I wish the Glock 37 had been a full size Glock 36. Now, that I would have bought. Maybe two. Regards.

Nnobby45
August 17, 2005, 12:52 PM
One of the best benefits of the 45 gap is that it is probably the best choice when it comes to subcompacts packing a punch i.e. glock 39. Hopefully springfield will make a xd-45 subcompact. As a result, I think the 45 gap will stay. It really benefits the subcompact market which is quite significant for ccw.

Congradulations. You'd think there'd be more folks on a board like this who recognize the benefits of a shorter cartridge for subcompacts where reliability is difficult to achieve. Shortening the cartridge equivilates (made that word up :D ) to lengthening the slide--and to increasing reliability. That get's to the heart of the matter.:cool:

MachIVshooter
August 17, 2005, 06:53 PM
The Springfield Micro compact GAP is a whole 1/8" shorter than the ACP version. Forgive me if I don't see the advantage here.

Glock pistols are all grossly oversized in the grip, regardless of chambering. So in order to get a .45 cal. cartridge into a gun that will fit the average hand they had two choices; Make a more ergonomic pistol with a reasonable grip diameter or make a new cartridge. They chose the latter. I bet the grip on my Witness 10mm is no larger in circumference than the GLocks firing GAP cartridge.

C. H. Luke
August 17, 2005, 07:22 PM
"I wish the Glock 37 had been a full size Glock 36."

Nothing defies good sound Logic!

Me Too.....

Nnobby45
August 18, 2005, 02:33 AM
The Springfield Micro compact GAP is a whole 1/8" shorter than the ACP version. Forgive me if I don't see the advantage here.

My gunsmith went to work on my Springfield Champion and modified the gun so that I got a lot less than 1/8th of an inch more reward slide travel, but that was enough to turn it into a reliable gun. I didn't think to ask him the exact principle involved. :D

Brad Johnson
August 18, 2005, 01:40 PM
The Springfield Micro compact GAP is a whole 1/8" shorter than the ACP version. Forgive me if I don't see the advantage here.

And there is only five hundreths of an inch between a .40 and a .45... :p

An eight of an inch may not sound like a lot, but it sure makes a difference in the hand.

Brad

p.s. five hundreths of an inch converts to 1/20" for the decimally challenged.

Island Beretta
August 18, 2005, 02:07 PM
for those wanting high capacity .45s, the gap is a useful compromise although it does have that gap...

BluesBear
August 18, 2005, 04:32 PM
The real life difference between .40 and .45 is NOT simply .05" because you are not dealing with a lineal measurement.

You are dealing with the area of a circle. BIG Difference.

And that difference between a .40 S&W bullet and a .45 ACP bullet is .034087 SQUARE inches.
Whih translates into the .45 being about 27% larger than a .40.

27%! That's bigger than ¼. :eek:

And that, even for the mathimatically challenged, is significant.

Vern Humphrey
August 18, 2005, 04:49 PM
Shortening the cartridge equivilates (made that word up ) to lengthening the slide--and to increasing reliability. That get's to the heart of the matter.

Not quite. The key is the vertical distance the cartridge has to be moved to chamber it. Given equivallent distances (and the .45 ACP and the .45 GAP have to go up the same distance to get into the chamber) the longer the cartridge, the shallower the angle. Longer cartridges feed better.

RyanM
August 18, 2005, 04:52 PM
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_34

.45 ACP
185 gr at 1225 fps
200 gr at 1125 fps
230 gr at 1010 fps

From a 5" barreled 1911. Not +P.

When .45 GAP can come close to those numbers, then I'll be impressed.

Vern Humphrey
August 18, 2005, 05:05 PM
.45 ACP
185 gr at 1225 fps
200 gr at 1125 fps
230 gr at 1010 fps

From a 5" barreled 1911. Not +P.


Those are impressive numbers -- but you'd want about a 20 lb recoil spring in an M1911.

BluesBear
August 18, 2005, 11:31 PM
You do not need to increase the recoil spring to shoot higher velocity ammo.
How long must we endure that misconception? :banghead:

Vern Humphrey
August 19, 2005, 09:12 AM
You do not need to increase the recoil spring to shoot higher velocity ammo.
How long must we endure that misconception?

Recoil is a function of mass times velocity. When you leave the mass constant and increase the velocity by some 17% (as in the case of the 230 grain bullet at 1010 fps), you increase the recoil by 17% (approximately -- I'm leaving out gas in this calculation). A 17% increase in velocity will cause battering over time if you don't have an appropriate recoil spring. I'd also recommend a buffer, if your gun will function reliably with one.

Brad Johnson
August 19, 2005, 12:14 PM
The real life difference between .40 and .45 is NOT simply .05" because you are not dealing with a lineal measurement.

You are dealing with the area of a circle. BIG Difference.

And that difference between a .40 S&W bullet and a .45 ACP bullet is .034087 SQUARE inches.
Whih translates into the .45 being about 27% larger than a .40.

27%! That's bigger than ¼.

And that, even for the mathimatically challenged, is significant.

Yeah? Well, my 27% is bigger than your 27% any day! :neener:

Brad

45auto
August 19, 2005, 01:22 PM
If the GAP makes the 3" 1911's run reliably, it will be the 1911 that "saves" the caliber IMO. :) "Saves" mean sells quite a bit. Right now, I suspect the GAP is pretty much a gun for a Glock user that has most of their models now, needs something to buy. Or the guy that just likes something different, and nothing wrong with that.

Better still, Springfield now has a 9mm sized grip/frame, whatever. Now, they just need to scale down the slide, rest of the gun and have a 'reduced sized' 1911 for the 9mm. Couldn't keep them in stock IMHO.

Double stack 1911 45 GAP might be a real nice grip.

Don't slap me too hard...I "is" a 1911 user. :D

BluesBear
August 19, 2005, 07:17 PM
Double stack 1911 45 GAP might be a real nice grip. Why am I reminded of the Browning BDA double stack .380?

Oh yeah that was a huge success wasn't it?

MachIVshooter
August 20, 2005, 01:17 AM
Why am I reminded of the Browning BDA double stack .380?

Oh yeah that was a huge success wasn't it?

Perhaps not the model with the browning emblem, but the Beretta 84's have done pretty well. I bought an Inox 84 FS for the wife and she adores it. IMO, it is an excellent purse gun for a woman. Small and light with 13+1 capacity. Of course, she now prefers the S&W 4506. :rolleyes:

45auto
August 20, 2005, 08:27 AM
"Why am I reminded of the Browning BDA double stack .380?"

Ha, I was thinking more of a Hi-Power grip dimension with a 1911 SA trigger.

Could be "sweet" if it worked! ;)

Just going out on a limb to see if the GAP has any use in a 1911...it may not!

otasan
April 22, 2010, 08:26 PM
I wonder if the .45 GAP can load a 260gr LSWC and shoot it at 860 FPS as the .45 ACP can?

EddieNFL
April 22, 2010, 08:46 PM
According to one "expert" the GAP doesn't drop out to 380 yards, so I guess it wins the long range contest. :rolleyes:

GLOOB
April 22, 2010, 09:09 PM
Is it possible that .45 GAP can achieve higher velocities from a 3" barrel, using lower pressures?
For one thing, in an auto, it will already have a 0.1" advantage in actual barrel length. :)
Second, with the modern powders, there's less empty space left over in the cartridge, right?

JohnKSa
April 22, 2010, 10:43 PM
I wonder if the .45 GAP can load a 260gr LSWC and shoot it at 860 FPS as the .45 ACP can?When the GAP was released, it was explicitly stated that the cartridge wouldn't function well with heavy bullet loadings. In fact, at the time of the release that limitation was intended to apply even to 230gr bullets. However the ammo manufacturers found a way to get the 230grainers to work well. I suspect that going heavier than that would be a problem.

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