Anyone use 400 CorBon?

[C-grunt]

I have a friend who purchased a 400 CorBon barrel for his 1911. He has shoot several small woodland animals with it and compares the wounds to his 44 mag. Hes never shot anything bigger than a racoon with it though. Does anyone here use the 400 for self defense or anything else? It seems like a pretty cool round.

[SDGlock23]

It offers 45 ACP owners a new direction in ammuntion, but honestly, I don't think it can do anything a .40 can't. My .02

[Rockstar]

Shoots the same bullets as .40 or 10mm. Might get more velocity from .400 Cor-Bon than from .40, but 10mm can probably be loaded hotter than .400 Cor-Bon.

[ShelbyV8]

I am going to convert a S&W 4506 to 45 Super, it only requires spring changes and generates pretty good numbers.

[Brad Johnson]

I used to have a Ruger P90 with a .400 CorBon barrel. Loved it. Loud as heck, but soft shooting and extremely impressive terminal ballistics. Some impromptu tests with water jugs and modeling clay made me a believer. Someone mentioned a comparison with a 10mm and .40 S&W. Well, in the same kind of backyard test I've seen some home-rolled 10mm loads that compared, but never a .40.

Just FYI - here's an apples to apples comparison with the Federal .40 S&W Premium Personal Defense round (using data directly from the Federal and Cor-Bon web pages). From a 4" test barrel the 135gr Federal .40 S&W Premium Personal Defense round has a claimed muzzle velocity of 1190 FPS, which equates to 424 ft/lb muzzle energy. The the .400 Cor-Bon with a Sierra 135gr JHP and from the same length barrel has a claimed muzzled velocity of 1450 FPS, which generates 630 lb/ft muzzle energy.

The pro is a 48.6% increase in energy vs. the .40 S&W loads with the same bullet weight. The con is the reduction in magazine capacity for the larger case (or a larger magazine/frame size to give equal cartridge capacity).

You also have to consider that the bottleneck shape of the Cor-Bon round is inherently less likely to face feeding problems than the straight-walled .40. Not much of a big problem in today's firearms, but still a consideration.

Brad

[Ultima-Ratio]

Hiya Brad, those Corbon number seem a little weak to me? FYI using Hodgdons own Longshot data I've ran those same 135gners @ 1500fps+ from Glock 23s.
The 10mm using custom loads with a couple different powders will push that same 135gner in excess of 1800fps....just an FYI from another reloader!

[Brad Johnson]

That's the published specs directly from the Cor-Bon web site for the factory loads. The 'roll-yer-own' loads are a whole dif'rent matter... :D

Brad

[Rockstar]

Brad,

Your velocity figures are, no doubt, correct, but I believe 10mm can be loaded hotter. I'm not sure what loading that hot accomplishes, unless one is just playing with jugs of water or hunting, but one thing I do know from personal experience: .400 Cor-Bon DOES exhibit more feeding problems (particularly in doublestack mags) than do straightwall rounds.

[Reed1911]

Ultima, While I don't doubt you pushed a 125 to 1800FPS; I can tell you that it was way over pressure.

[Rockstar]

It was 135gr., and I don't know whether he was over pressure or not; I do know that factory 135gr. .40 Supers are @ 1800 f.p.s. for 971 lbs/ft of energy at the muzzle. I believe that 10mm can be loaded as hot as .40 Super.

[Reed1911]

RAR (us), Double Tap, and Texas Ammunition are the leading makers and researchers of high energy 10mm ammunition. The fastest we all have been able to push a 135 and still stay in the MAP set by SAAMI is right around 1600FPS. The MAP of the 10MM is 37,500 PSI, I think the .40 Super is running about 45,000+ PSI which accounts for the higher velocity.

We also make the .400CorBon in several different bullet styles from 105g up to 165g. IT's a great cartridge, accurate and fun to shoot.

[tex_n_cal]

I have a .400 CB barrel fitted to a Colt 1991A1...the cartridge works okay, but handloading it is a whole different proposition. It is very difficult to get the bullets seated tightly enough that they don't setback during feeding. Setback = Kb, of course.

With a lot of work I was able to get around the problem, and enjoyed both full power and reduced loads.

What I did find very nice was being able to run it with 135's at subsonic speeds - which is a nice way to reduce recoil in a .45, for kids and ladies.

I personally prefer the 10mm as the hottest thing out there for a handy autopistol. My Delta would do 1350fps with 155's, at safe pressures and excellent accuracy. A ramped barrel could probably improve on those numbers.

[Rockstar]

Reed: I don't recall what the working pressure for the .40 Super is. One thing .40 Super has going for it, compared to .400 Cor-Bon, is case capacity and longer neck bearing surface. Both rounds benefit from the increase in pressure by the "funnel" effect of the bottleneck.

[Reed1911]

Don't get me wrong; the .40 super is an awesome round. I'm just concerned that someone is loading or trying to load the 10MM to 40 super performance.
It's kind of like trying to load the 9x23 Largo to the 9x23 Win performance. It will most likely work, but you are basically loading proof round pressures if you are pushing a 135g in the 10mm to 1800FPS.

[Ultima-Ratio]

Huh? Actually I got the first load data straight from Hodgdon using 800x, do you actually reload for 10mm???????? Got a Chronograph?

[GarrettJ]

It's a neat idea. You can get (factory) 10mm balistics from a .45 with just a barrel change.

I played with one for a while, but haven't used it since I got a Colt Delta.

[Mark8252]

I just picked up a conversion for my 1911 last week.
I will let you know when I use it this weekend.
One thing for sure is that the ammo is expensive.
I have been told it compares to 10mm.

[Rockstar]

Mark: You might want to take up reloading, if you're not currently doing it! You can load .400 Cor-Bon for the same price or less than .45ACP.

[ny32182]

All the numbers I've seen indicate that .400 Corbon falls in between the .40 and 10mm in terms of power generation.

Viable concept, I guess, but I don't see much use for it when the 10mm is around. With .400 Corbon, you don't get a reduced size frame (if that is what you are looking for), but you do get reduced ballistic performance, reduced capacity, and much less common ammo than you do with 10mm.

[Reed1911]

Ultima, We have a full ballistics lab. I'm not sure how much 800X you are using, but again if you are pushing a 135g bullet to 1800FPS in a pistol (even with a 6" barrel) you are well over the SAAMI pressure limit. The only safe way you could do that is to shoot it from a carbine with a 16" or longer barrel; using a safe load. If you were using the prescribed charge from Hodgdon; I would call them to make sure it's not a mistake; as I can tell you from our pressure measurements to even get near that much velocity you are well up into the 40-42 Kpsi range. The lowest weight bullet I have data for is a 155g. Did you extrapolate the data for a 135?

[Ultima-Ratio]

Hello again and greetings from Anchorage, as mentioned in my first comment the data was used from the Hodgdon Manual. Max is listed as 14.5gns 800X with the 135gner....in fact 14.2 is "max" unless a pencil or punch is used to compress the load (800X has those huge flakes that do not measure well from the Dillon powder measures)
laters..

[Reed1911]

Might want to check that chronograph, our testing (and verified with others) shows 14.5g of 800X behind a 135g bullet at no more than 1600-1610FPS from a standard 5" barrel. This is a max load!

[albanian]

'Viable concept, I guess, but I don't see much use for it when the 10mm is around. With .400 Corbon, you don't get a reduced size frame (if that is what you are looking for), but you do get reduced ballistic performance, reduced capacity, and much less common ammo than you do with 10mm."

I think the biggest advantage the .400 Cor-Bon has over the 10mm is that all you have to do is buy a new bbl and you have a new caliber in your stock 1911. There is no way to get .400 Cor-Bon velocities out of a .45acp but with a bbl and a box of shells, you have almost a 10mm plus you still have your .45acp when you need it.

Now the question remains, what is it good for? I wouldn't use it for self defense if I had .45acp at the ready. I wouldn't use it for target practice because it is too expensive. I guess you could use it for hunting but a .357 mag revolver is probably going to be way more accurate and deliver enough power. So, what is it good for?

[Rockstar]

It's good for shooting 10mm projectiles from a .45ACP platform. ;) As previously mentioned, most serious shooters reload, so cost per round is no more than .45ACP...can be a little less, since 10mm bullets generally are a little cheaper than .45ACP bullets.

In my opinion, the .40 Super is a superior round, but there's no factory support available. Starline is carrying .40 Super brass again, though.

Ron: Could be that Alaskan internet chrony results are kind of like Texan internet group size reports. :D

[Reed1911]

Could also be a battery problem, calibration, or angle problem. I have to assume that Ultima ran them over his chronograph by the way he phrased his question
Huh? Actually I got the first load data straight from Hodgdon using 800x, do you actually reload for 10mm???????? Got a Chronograph?

Or is could be that there is bad data published in the manual and he quoted from it. In any event I'm glad to know he's not pushing the envelope with the load, and I sincerly hope no one else is stupid enough to try to achieve 1800FPS with a 135g Bullet. If speed is all you are looking for, we have some 107g bullets that run close (1775).

[Rockstar]

So, Ron, you're also saying that those plain old factory load 135gr. .40 Supers @ 1800 f.p.s. were a pretty good deal? :) I use 160-165gr. bullets for most of my .40 Super reloading. I don't have any motivation to "push the envelope," so I keep velocities/loads way below max published data.

Ron: Did a Google for ".40 Super" and found that .40 Super operates @ a max of 37,000 lbs/in2.

[Rockstar]

egzet: How many rounds of .38 Casull and .460 Rowland have you fired? What kind of pistols? Any load data you'd like to share?

[Reed1911]

Yes and no Rockstar. Pushing a 135g Bullet to 1800FPS is fun and exciting, but you have to remember that the bullet construction is not made for it. You can make or have made custom bullets that would certainly work for hunting; The 135g bullets that are out there are mainly made for the 40 S&W and designed to operate at it's velocities. Beyond that if you are target shooting with the 40 Super, there is no reason the run them that hot and reduce the brass life. I doubt anyone is using a 5-6 inch barrel to shoot 100-150yd targets. Even at 50yds dropping 100FPS off the velocity will not substantially affect the drop for most shooters. Is it cool? Yes. Is it fun? Yes.
The .40 Super does fill a nitch, and I don't see its demise in the near future.

[Rockstar]

Ron:

I'll defer to your opinion on the bullet design. Please note that I don't load my .40 Supers really hot, and I rarely load 135gr. bullets. .40 Super is just a novelty to me.

[Reed1911]

It's actually a great caliber, it has the advantage that the 10MM has in that it can be downloaded to 40S&W velocities for light practice, and loaded hotter than the 10MM for increased performance. BTW, where did you get that pressure spec? Out of curiosity, what are you shooting it in and what do you normally load?

I’m still waiting for Ultima to chime in, in response to my comment.

[Rockstar]

I did a Google search and found this: http://www.jrwhipple.com/guns/40super.html

I'm shooting .40 Super through a G21. I was just today looking at a bag of loaded .40 Supers that I loaded up a couple of years ago. I noticed 13.8gr. of AA#7, and I think that was for 165gr. bullets, but I'll check and make sure about the bullet weight. I also loaded a bunch of 180's, but don't remember what the ones in the bag are. I use small rifle primers and AA#7, exclusively. I've experienced outstanding accuracy, but have only tried 'em out to 100 yds.

One thing I've noticed on this and other boards, some time ago. There are some guys (one in particular) who use software programs, rather than any kind of testing equipment, for their pressure figures. Problem is, they publish their "data" as fact, as if they're actually taking measurements. That just doesn't sit well with me. Software and extrapolation will probably get you in the ballpark, but I'm of the opinion that you need to be more accurate than that when loading on the edge. (which I don't do.)

I got my load data from Tony Rumore.