Real soldiers don't like "Over There"


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Father Knows Best
July 27, 2005, 08:49 AM
Not a place these soldiers recognize...

These soldiers say 'Over There' is 'bogus'

By M.L. LYKE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

A truck tire hits a flagged wire, a roadside bomb explodes, a handsome private with shredded leg screams in agony. In the bloody chaos of the moment, his soldier buddies panic. One pukes.

Stop the cameras! Sir!


Gilbert W. Arias / P-I
In a preview of "Over There" at Camp Murray in Tacoma, 1st Lt. Eva Sovelenko reacts to a scene as Sgt. John Figueroa looks on.

"People don't act like that when an i.e.d. (improvised explosive device) goes off. They make us look like idiots. We're not idiots!" said a first lieutenant previewing "Over There," the new TV series from Steven Bochco ("NYPD Blue," "Hill Street Blues") that debuts tomorrow night on FX cable network. It's set in Iraq, hyped as "true to life" by producers and hailed by critics as "unflinching" and "gut-wrenching."

"Bogus" was the preferred adjective among the eight soldiers -- most of them Iraq vets -- viewing the series pilot last week at Camp Murray, headquarters of the Washington State National Guard in Tacoma.

"Thank God that's over," said a master sergeant as the credits rolled.

The uniformed skeptics dissected the series pilot scene by scene, beginning with the roadside bombing and panicked soldiers. Who, they asked, was pulling security? And what kind of idiot pulls off his helmet after a bombing attack? "In real life, training takes over. Not in Hollywood," said Sgt. Dan Purcell.

The flags on the trip wires got an "F": roadside bombs in Iraq are typically hidden in watermelons, hay stacks, animal carcasses -- not marked for easy viewing. "A flag to mark an i.e.d.? What is that -- like don't land here?"

Truck drivers also got eight thumbs down. "You do not, under any circumstances, pull off on the side of the road. You stop in the middle."

The TV series, filmed in California, follows an Army infantry squad, flashing between soldiers' experiences in-country and the impact of their deployment back home in the States. It's billled as the first war drama built around a U.S. military conflict still in progress, a war with death tolls mounting daily.

Bochco, who co-created the series with Chris Gerolmo ("Mississippi Burning"), has stated in interviews that the show is apolitical. "Ultimately, a young man being shot at in a firefight has absolutely no interest in politics," he told Reuters news service.

But some camo-clad critics at Camp Murray were left wondering just what the message was in "Over There." One said a young soldier who brags about slitting the throat of a child sentry "makes us look like murderers."

Master Sgt. Jeff Clayton complained that cameras deliberately dragged out the death scenes of Iraqi insurgents after a firefight, lingering unnecessarily on the carnage. "It made me sick."

And where, soldiers asked, were the scenes of soldiers building schools, Iraqi kids waving American flags?

The fast-paced premiere is packed with sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll; cool explosions and close-up gore; cussing and wrought emotion. It opens with the soldiers' goodbyes to family and a nervous flight to Iraq. In an instant -- "Yeah, right" -- the new dudes are belly-down in sand in front of a mosque full of insurgents, with two women accidentally trapped in the trenches, one with a big attitude and little common sense.

"I can do it myself!" she yells at a soldier who tries to help her dig a trench. "You deaf soldier?" It's night, she's totally exposed to enemy fire and, when it starts, it's boy-soldier who has to push her head down to save her.

No wonder the men keep asking, "What do we do about the women?"

"I did not like the way the show presents men's opinion of women -- they act like the women were some other species," said Lt. Connie Woodyard, who returned from Iraq earlier this year. "We're not cowards. Women in Iraq are doing amazing things."

The Camp Murray soldiers dismissed the military firefights as "bull---- " ("Where is the air support? Where is the armor support?"), the dialogue as contrived ("It sucked") and plot drivers as pure Hollywood.


In the script, characters are thrown together for the first time. They constantly ask each other to explain nicknames. In real life, soldiers are sent to Iraq in units. "They don't have to ask each other's nicknames. They all know each other."


After one week in-country, the soldier-actors mull life and death and war in eloquent speeches home to loved ones, talking about how war unmasks the monster within. "Nobody is that reflective after one week in-country. It's more like, "Ohmigod, we're in Iraq. Hi. What the hell am I doing here?"

A few scenes passed muster. Heads nodded when a soldier opened up a packet of Taster's Choice freeze-dried and downed the whole thing. Nice detail. Ditto the scene of the earnest soldier describing the horrors of war via computer video e-mail as his adulterous wife is writhing in ecstasy with lover-boy back home.

"But after only a week?" commented one soldier.

"It usually takes at least two," added another.

One scene hit home for the tough audience: an intimate close-up of two African American soldiers talking band-of-brother bonds. Says one: "If you're looking for another fool to risk getting shot to cover your fool behind, I'm right here beside you."

Correct! Sir!

Only one of the camo-clad critics, Sgt. John Figueroa, who is awaiting call-up orders to Afghanistan, said he'd watch it.

"Hey, I'm into Hollywood," he said, shrugging.

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grampster
July 27, 2005, 09:10 AM
Someone ought to throw Bochco and Geralmo into the company of a rifle squad of ground pounders for a month. Then let's see what kind of "entertainment" they film. gahhk!! :banghead:

RevDisk
July 27, 2005, 09:19 AM
"But after only a week?" commented one soldier.

"It usually takes at least two," added another.

Heh. So true. Gee, Hollywood screwing up a film/series about war. Very surprising.

Actually to be fair, a lot of recent war movies have been very well done. We Were Soldiers, Black Hawk Down, etc. Perhaps we were spoiled, and Hollywood is trying to bring a balance back. :rolleyes:

CAS700850
July 27, 2005, 09:19 AM
He's probably hired a couple of mall-ninjas who've operated for the past six years on covert ops in Iraq and Afghanistan as "techinal advisors". :D

molonlabe
July 27, 2005, 09:27 AM
And this surprises who???

dolanp
July 27, 2005, 09:41 AM
When Hollywood dislikes a war, they make movies and shows where the soldiers are idiots who don't know what the hell they are doing. Just dumb kids blowing up the 'poor enemy' and crying when they get scared.

It's a shame to read this because I was hoping it would relay the real experiences of soldiers in Iraq. I guess that was way too much to hope for.

RevDisk
July 27, 2005, 10:01 AM
When Hollywood dislikes a war, they make movies and shows where the soldiers are idiots who don't know what the hell they are doing. Just dumb kids blowing up the 'poor enemy' and crying when they get scared.

Saving Pvt Ryan - Captain quoting Emerson

We Were Soldiers - Lt Col Moore reading all kinds of books, and quoting various historical figures. Nicely showed off the enemy as being human too.

Black Hawk Down - showed many of the soldiers making good decisions. And why they also made bad ones.


Here's something. Plenty of soldiers ARE idiots that don't know what the hell they're doing. If you serve any longer than a week in uniform (I'm being generous), you'll run into the biggest idiots in the planet. Unfortunately, it usually seems that a large number are placed in your chain of command or handle your paperwork. ;)

As for crying, eh. Not really. But I've had plenty of close calls where I took a lil "private time" to chain smoke half a pack and wait for the hands to stop shaking. But guess what, if you see a buddy get half his face ripped or blown off, it's gonna bother you a bit.

enfield
July 27, 2005, 10:01 AM
Sounds like a re-make of "Platoon".

Justin
July 27, 2005, 10:19 AM
[Movie Guy Voice]

From the creator of NYPD 2069 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0341174/) and the unforgettable Cop Rock (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098772/), this season, Steven Bochco is Over There.

[/Movie Guy Voice]

Kjervin
July 27, 2005, 12:35 PM
I immediately thought that the intention was to try to erode support for the US being in Iraq because it showed familes falling apart and soldiers falling apart in battle. It seemed like a cheap shot to me. Like they were thinking, "If we only show them how bad it is, they will finally understand and join our side." I think the series is born out of frustration that there is as much support for us finishing the job as there is. I bet the series is a fairlure after the first episode as people find that it rings hollow.

Kj

entropy
July 27, 2005, 12:39 PM
Here's something. Plenty of soldiers ARE idiots that don't know what the hell they're doing. If you serve any longer than a week in uniform (I'm being generous), you'll run into the biggest idiots in the planet. Unfortunately, it usually seems that a large number are placed in your chain of command or handle your paperwork.

You are so right, Rev Disk! :p S-1 and S-4 offices are their favorite haunts, although S-2 and 3 offices are by no means immune from them either. :uhoh:

I'll watch it tonight, but will probably be doing a lot of this: :rolleyes:

jefnvk
July 27, 2005, 12:50 PM
I could have sworn in one of the TV previews, they showed a lefty AR.

No_Brakes23
July 27, 2005, 12:59 PM
From the creator of NYPD 2069 and the unforgettable Cop Rock, this season, Steven Bochco is Over There. Now now, let's not forget Doogie Howser M.D., that was a Bochco as well.

21H40
July 27, 2005, 01:00 PM
Are they just too lazy or what? :confused:

I've already seen multiple blogs and short documentaries on this war.. it isn't like they need to "create" much, with so many soliders (servicemembers) speaking their mind and telling about their experiences on readily available media. They could easily plagerize for the whole season.

Really. Even without using real expereinces, go hollywood with me for a minute: I want you to look inside and FEEL terror... be terror... imagine yourself as the insurgent -- become the IED -- are you labeled with a surgen general's label? (this explosive is known to cause discomfort in the state of california)
:barf:

Bobarino
July 27, 2005, 01:08 PM
i'm quite surprised to see this in the Seattle PI. i didn't think they would print anything that would disparage hollywierd's all knowing wisdom and actually pay attention to our fighting men and women. guess i have to give them kudos for that.

Bobby

Father Knows Best
July 27, 2005, 01:11 PM
I could have sworn in one of the TV previews, they showed a lefty AR.

Not exactly. It's a reversed image. If you look closely, you'll see that while it is ejecting from the left side, the mag release is also visible and the selector is not. It's a standard right handed M16 but with the image flipped.

Burt Blade
July 27, 2005, 01:31 PM
All they will show in this show is pointless mayhem and death. The message is "Don't support this, and for heavens sake, don't enlist." I guess Hollyweird believes that only White European countries deserve freedom, and then only if they plan to hand it over to Socialist thugs.

wingnutx
July 27, 2005, 01:32 PM
I'm not going to watch this. It looks crappy just from the commercials.

Old Dog
July 27, 2005, 01:32 PM
Bobby --
i'm quite surprised to see this in the Seattle PI. i didn't think they would print anything that would disparage hollywierd's all knowing wisdom and actually pay attention to our fighting men and women. guess i have to give them kudos for that.
M. L. Lyke was an "embed" with a carrier strike group when OIF started; she'd been deployed on the ship for quite a while and wrote numerous stories up to and after OIF started. She was able to relate to a lot of military personnel pretty well and wrote some good stories. Speaking of the P-I; had at least one editor who came out with a couple pretty well-reasoned pieces on gun issues (actually pro-gun, anti-gun control) a couple years or so ago ...

Jim K
July 27, 2005, 01:36 PM
Can't be any sillier than "Saving Private Ryan", which was nonsense from its premise to the actions of its "soldiers" to the fake equipment used.

Pure Hollywood garbage.

Jim

bogie
July 27, 2005, 01:48 PM
I liked SPR, along with the premise (based at least partly on history), and I think that they did pretty well with equipment used 50 years after the fact.

This, on the other hand, looks like a major hose-job.

Wasn't Bochco involved in the A-Team show?

Justin
July 27, 2005, 01:54 PM
No, but Bochco has been a bigtime mover and shaker in television for years.
IMDB entry (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0004766/)

Kjervin
July 27, 2005, 02:14 PM
I'm surprised they didn't just do a series from the insurgents point of view and be done with it!!
Kj

jefnvk
July 27, 2005, 03:01 PM
Not exactly. It's a reversed image. If you look closely, you'll see that while it is ejecting from the left side, the mag release is also visible and the selector is not. It's a standard right handed M16 but with the image flipped.

Either way, they went out of their way to make it less realistic. That just doesn't sit well with me.

72Rover
July 27, 2005, 03:36 PM
On a similar vein, has anyone seen the series "Shootout" on the History Channel? The premier episode last week was Iraq. This week (last night) was Guadalcanal.

Cheers

Father Knows Best
July 27, 2005, 03:48 PM
has anyone seen the series "Shootout" on the History Channel?I watched the episode on Fallujah and thought it was very well done.

smokemaker
July 27, 2005, 03:56 PM
I saw the M-16v ejecting on the left, pointed it out to my wife, (as a flipped image) and was told I need to find a new hobby. Go figure.

Farnham
July 27, 2005, 09:54 PM
[thread hijack]

Shootout is my new favorite show! Great stories, fairly technical, lots to learn from. Plus, both shows so far have been about Marines! :D

I never really knew the whole story on John D. Basilone or "Red Mike" Edson when I was in, just that they'd done great things in the Pacific, and the Guadalcanal episode went into plenty of detail on them. And, I learned what "baka" means in Japanese! ;)

S/F

Farnham

[/thread hijack]

entropy
July 27, 2005, 10:21 PM
I saw it last night. Great re-enactments. That was one dedicated machine-gunner, to keep firing 200 rounds after he died. I was not surprised about the Reising jamming on that Sgt. I'm watching 'Over There' right now. :barf:

chaim
July 27, 2005, 10:35 PM
I saw both episodes of Shootout also, great show.

I'm watching Over There now and it doesn't look very good.

boing
July 27, 2005, 11:08 PM
Just watched "Over There".

Lousy scripting, lousy acting, and really predictable plot lines. Politics and technical errors don't even enter into it. It just sucked.

ETA: Our soldiers deserved a lot better than this. :mad:

GT
July 27, 2005, 11:29 PM
Hmmm... well the mystery of the flopped (technical term) M16 has been solved. For some reason the editor who put the promo together took it up on himself to flop it. In the show the gun ejects from the correct side and all is right with the world; at least from that perspective.

Otherwise, what Boing said.

It felt like a collection of the "best" scenes and standard characters from many other war movies with an added veneer of anti-war lefty.
Kind of a poor man's Full Metal Jacket. I expected to see helmet straps hanging loose (thankfully not included).

Best scene was the severed insugent whose legs kept moving, but even that image was stolen from Catch 22.

Total crap except for the killing.

Probably will be talk talk talk for the rest of the season so I shan't be tuning in again.

G

Black Majik
July 28, 2005, 12:01 AM
Way too artsy fartsy for a war show.

Quite gory, lack of character development, at least the shell came out of the right side of the ejection port in the show.

When I saw the guy get blown up and the legs still walking I was like

All in all however, I dont think I'm gonna follow this show...

Double Naught Spy
July 28, 2005, 12:04 AM
From the other thread that closed, apparently, while I was typing...

The lefty M16 was in the previews, but I didn't see it in the show.

I think the IED was actually supposed to be a real set of mines, not an IED, or I don't think so, rather.

What else was wrong? The squad had horrible positioning and crappy firing positions (such as Angel [?] with the ACOG with 1/3 of his upper body over the berm, exposed), the open field advance on the retreating Iraqis back toward the mosque (stupid move given there was no cover and the distance was not so far that they needed to make an open field advance), the SGT called out "Where's my .50?" after it had immediately been present behind him in the previous scene (wrongly edited sequence), Mrs. B was a truck driver but I don't recall ever seeing her truck.

Speaking of different story lines, the whole businees about blacks sticking together against the whites, yaddy yaddy yaddy was seemingly out of date and reeked of Apocalypse Now.

As for the kid getting his leg blown off, was that the one with the scholarship? If so, he got part of his Texas A&M information correct, part wrong. He said that he had the partial scholarship, but then said he wanted to be on the kickoff team because those guys are walk-ons. They are walk-ons with no scholarships. They only play in home games. They are called the 12th Man Kick-Off Team in honor of the "12th Man" tradition which is a really cool tradition for those of you interested in football histories and traditions (http://aggietraditions.tamu.edu/12thman.shtml).

Is it just me, or was anyone else surprised by the grand variety of M16 accessories for a new squad just in theatre who seemed like they were fairly fresh out of boot camp. There were ACOGS, vertical grips, one or more lasers, and I don't know what all else.

Oh, and the flight over from the US to Iraq wasn't right at all with everyone seated on opposing benches in full battle dress and holding their guns between their legs. It looked like they were in a jump plane, not an overseas transport of any sort (which is often commercial airliners or much larger planes such as C140s). Maybe I missed something and the plane in question was used to transport them to a destination once they were already in theatre?

Completely stupid was the question asked after they were in the field "What do we do with the women?" as the soldier was pointing at the two female soldiers. What to do with the women is an issue long resolved.

Black Majik
July 28, 2005, 12:18 AM
DNS:

Yes I believe it was Bo who got his leg blown off. In the previews for the next episode, it shows that he lost his right leg and his left arm. When his gf/wife comes in, he tells her that he's going back into the army. Obviously he isn't gonna fight with 1 leg and 1 arm... that part I didn't understand at all.

The previews reminded me of black hawk down.

Theres one part where the fresh recruit has a laser on his M16. But why does the laser on his rifle look like a laser pointer?! :eek: I only got a glimpse, but sheesh, it looked really out of place. Plus why would they use lasers in combat?

Ironbarr
July 28, 2005, 12:42 AM
Yes, the left ejection port pic was in the show - I caught that for sure since I was watching for it having been deluged with the ads all week and a dozen + times tonight on the just previous show "XXX".

I was hoping it would be a good (true showing) story line. It wasn't IMO. It was more like Michael Moore had financed (and influenced) it's production. It certainly isn't a recruitment tool... mostly subliminely suggesting a short run up the Alcan Highway.

My 2... For Whatever The Value.

/IB

Dr.Rob
July 28, 2005, 05:43 AM
Repeat after me...

'It's just a movie"

Yeah the Gung-Ho athelete gets zapped... saw that in back to Bataan didn't I? Predictable. if college or stop-snore ahd bought it? Maybe.

The 'brother's' talking... I agree, dated.

What to do with the women? Hello? I guess those girls didn't get no army training.

The '50 dissapearing... guys it was in a sand storm... the humvee drove up, fired a few and was gone--it's supposed to be confusing.

Dumb: Iraqi insugent human wave attacks... full auto fire is completely ineffective, noone hits anything. One tropper uses his optics and turns 'sniper' at 50 yards?

Dumber: Advancing abreast... that hasn't been done since WW1... when one man with a Spandau littered the field with the devil's paintbrush. Leapfrog... single file... something.

Note: Our massed charge 'kicked ass and took names" theirs=wildly innacurate hip shooting idiots run at dug in full auto rifles.

Suspect: M-4's with all the doodads mixed with reg gear.

Correct: Woodland camo vests over desert camo.

Silly: trucks with NO 'improvsed' armor driving to 'get beer' OK first off the Sarge just threatened to KILL you Bo, if you risked the lives of his guys... I'd say risking life and limb for a listerine bottle full of cognac is pretty far up there... NOBODY says 'uh, hey guys... ain't that a BAD $#^% idea? I mean last thing I wanna be in a war zone is to drunk to understand what's going on." Anyone?

Expected: sex sex more sex, explosions 'gritty tense dialogue etc." I LIKE the fact that the 'college boy' is a bit of a screw up... he's no good at being a dad, husband, college boy etc... but he's going to make a good soldier... this is a new look at the "Chris' character in platoon... the girl who gets zapped taking a constitutional... Bochco pointing a finger at Jessica Lynch, plain and simple. Archetypes abound... like watching a re-run of Tour of Duty mixed with some reality show types... American Idol, Survivor, the Graduate etc.

Troublesome: dissention in the ranks, sarge to grunts to LT to captain. Hello can you say "the fragging episode" or "the mutiny". it's NOT a democracy.

Cool: surreal moment where captain briefs sarge from Humvee blasting gangster rap (probably truer than you'd think)

Huey: who cares, TOD, platoon, etc all had to make allowances for budget, etc. Though you'd think they'd find somplace OTHER than the same set as MASH. (Southern California)

I agree... they should have shown SOME sort of 'briefing' for the guys... what to expect... but that's not as sexy as 'oh gosh we have no idea what to expect..."

I might watch it again. Won't need salt for the popcorn, but it's JUST TV.

Hell the Shield won't be back until NEXT year.

GT
July 28, 2005, 08:16 AM
Yeah Rob, we aren't dumb, we get it's just a movie. Dayum, it's ripped off from just about every war movie made until now, from the "Get Some" of Apocalypse Now to the gritty high contrast of Black Hawk Down.

The problem is the effort behind the show to convince folks that this is how it is when it isn't.

We all rode into Baghdad, we were all in real firefights, we all kicked in doors right there with the soldiers. Thanks to embedded reporters and their cameramen.

To produce this revisionist garbage when we KNOW what actually happened; that is franky an insult.

As others have pointed out there are plenty of great stories with terrific action and excellent characterization that already exist. Real stories.
Why do you have to make stuff up that has no relation at all to current experience yet is fully grounded in the post-Vietnam war-is-hell-why-are-we-here-where-am-I anti-war movie genre.

I think we all know the answer to that.

Why don't you keyboard cowboys write Fox and tell them how much it sucks?

G

molonlabe
July 28, 2005, 08:32 AM
IMHO this piece of garbage was an insult to our men AND WOMEN in arms. Real soldiers do not act in the manner they depicted. As for the way the woman acted. Well I would love to hear more of what a female solider have to say about this movie.I did not like the way the show presents men's opinion of women -- they act like the women were some other species," said Lt. Connie Woodyard, who returned from Iraq earlier this year. "We're not cowards. Women in Iraq are doing amazing things." Sorry Ill stick to history, Its much better than the made up crap from Hollywierd.

GoRon
July 28, 2005, 08:52 AM
I was really looking forward to this show. With the track record of FX I figured it would be great.

I am very dissipointed, all I can hope for is that it is a work in progress and they will fix it as it goes along. I am not holding my breath.

They could have made a realistic balanced show that paid attention to detail and had a real winner. Instead they give us this gruel :barf:

We wanted Black Hawk Down and they gave us Pearl Harbor.

molonlabe
July 28, 2005, 09:09 AM
More like we wanted blackhawk down and they gave us Apocalypse Now. At least Pearl Harbor had a love story imbedded in it.

Ironbarr
July 28, 2005, 09:34 AM
I just emailed FX both this thread and one on GT suggesting they read these responses... wonder if they will. Their message board is lit up too - http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/originals/overthere/message_board_overthere.html - there's a lot of unhappy people.

To all:

FWIW - my view is that it was another "Michael Moore" approach to the real thing - snippets of reality converted for "Stop The War, It's Too Too Ugly For Our Young (and old) Palates".

Yes it's a "movie". But it was hyped as a real time truth of things that happened - and happening. I was expecting more than what I got from it. If I was a bona fide (read "paid and influential") it would get a thumbs down for its Viet Nam-like story line framing, its technical errors, and its subliminal politics.

"Over There" will never be "Band of Brothers".

I'm concerned that most folks watching it will really think it to be "The True and Only "Truth of This War"".

I assume that they will continue the series. I do hope they'll read the tea leaves.

/IB

AirForceShooter
July 28, 2005, 09:41 AM
i watched it last night.
What a piece of crap.
It's disgusting and so unreal as to almost be a cartoon.

AFS

LiquidTension
July 28, 2005, 09:59 AM
Watched this last night, wasn't impressed. Oh well, I've still got Rescue Me to watch. I don't care if the show accurately depicts how the NYPD is - it's funny, so I watch it.

And I can't wait for Sept. 20, when the new season of Nip/Tuck starts :D

TheDutchman
July 28, 2005, 11:03 AM
Its Crap Utter Crap.

SteveS
July 28, 2005, 11:24 AM
it's JUST TV.

Good point.

Real _______ don't like "_________." You can put in any other occupation/profession and this will likely hold true. TV, for the most part tries to entertain and isn't interested in getting it right. I could probably count on one hand the number of shows that accurately portrayed something that I know about.

Father Knows Best
July 28, 2005, 11:32 AM
IMHO this piece of garbage was an insult to our men AND WOMEN in arms. Real soldiers do not act in the manner they depicted. As for the way the woman acted. Well I would love to hear more of what a female solider have to say about this movie.

+1.

Onmilo
July 28, 2005, 12:22 PM
For what it's worth, here's my take of "Over There"

A Master Sargeant will have at least 15 years in Service.
He see crap like this each and every day, no wonder he said "Thank God that's over."
Watching the same for entertainment as he does for real life just ain't entertainment.

The flags on the boogy wires were visual aids for the viewing audience to go 'uh oh that doesn't look good.'

Female troopers are just as decent and hard working as their male counterparts but the women depicted were supposed to be green 'crutes not seasoned combat veterans and frankly I didn't have any more of a clue what the hell was going on when I came under fire than the actors depicted did.

The cases ejected from the right side in the actual tv show, I have it on tape and watched it twice to be sure.

That was, one powerful 40mm grenade, I guess the guy was full of Kool-Aid when he blew up, the one I saw had arms, a head and neck, lots of ribs and plenty of innards laying around the death scene.

5.56 causes a lot larger head wounds than depicted at the ranges depicted.

If this allows the people at the homefront to get an idea what troops deal with on a day to day basis so much the better, maybe they won't be so eager to ignore another conflict that American Troops are dying in every day.

God Bless the Troops may they all come home safe.

SJG26
July 28, 2005, 12:28 PM
Sad point is 95% of the sheeple that watch it without the THR keen-eye present here will think this is a great show - and - "Oh my - how terrible it must be Over There"

It will probably get nominated for a few awards.......................

flatdog
July 28, 2005, 01:26 PM
To paraphrase Batman's "Joker."

"This show needs an enema."

Old Dog
July 28, 2005, 01:58 PM
Sad point is 95% of the sheeple that watch it without the THR keen-eye present here will think this is a great show - and - "Oh my - how terrible it must be Over There" Umm ... as I recall ... it actually is pretty terrible over there for most folks who have to go ...

At the risk of thread hijack, I will (guiltily) admit I used to enjoy JAG, even though it had little to do with the Navy I've come to appreciate over the last many years ... Because -- it portrayed most military personnel as intelligent, motivated, conscientious humans who usually tried to do the right thing ... which actually is true to a surprising extent ...

torpid
July 28, 2005, 02:34 PM
Umm ... as I recall ... it actually is pretty terrible over there for most folks who have to go ...

And more realistic.

.

MoeMentum
July 28, 2005, 03:27 PM
I watched it for five minutes before changing the channel. It really sucked.

chaim
July 28, 2005, 04:55 PM
TV, for the most part tries to entertain and isn't interested in getting it right. I could probably count on one hand the number of shows that accurately portrayed something that I know about.

True, but misses a couple key points on this one.

-There are plenty of good war movies out these days, the bar has been raised. Sure, artistic license is taken but most of the more recent war movies have at least been true to life in a more general sense and respectful of the "soldiers" depicted. This show looks like some weird combo of gung-ho 50's war movies and 70's cynical anti-war war movies and the soldiers are all either incompetent or too much of a bad ###.

-In addition to the above recent history, many Americans have served in the military and know at least what the military is like (any Army guys think the constant "sir", "private I'm a sargeant, I fight for a living" crap between the sgt and one of the guys was a bit over done, aren't most people over calling sargeants "sir" by the 2nd day of BCT). While not a large percentage have been in Iraq, many do get the military. You'd think they'd at least have a technical advisor or two who were in the Army, and then that the producers would listen since they don't want this to be an unintended comedy.

-Sometimes you expect Hollywood to go the "entertainment" route and ignore history/facts. However, they usually don't lead you to think they are going the "real" route when they are going purely unrealistic. No one expected realism from MASH and despite the politics it was a funny show. On this one Steven Bochco was touting how true to life it was and how he avoided politics. The day it premered or the night before I saw him on either Fox or MSNBC talking about how all the soldiers who have pre-screened the show loved it and were telling him how he got it right, and how non-political it is. If you make a "typical" BS war movie/show with a definate agenda don't set up expectations of it being a "Band of Brothers" quality show that is neutral in its agenda.

Beren
July 28, 2005, 06:39 PM
Have I mentioned that I don't own a television and don't really miss having one?

VaughnT
July 28, 2005, 06:40 PM
The best part of the show was, imho, the shooting. I just like guns going boom.

Other than that, I could have done without the stereotypes and other stupidity.

I'll watch the next episode to see what happens, and then I'm turning off the soap opera.

armedandsafe
July 28, 2005, 07:33 PM
aren't most people over calling sargeants "sir" by the 2nd day of BCT

That ws one of the hardest things for me to remember in basic. I finally told my DI, "My mother hit me more often and a LOT harder than you have. I'll try to remember, but I won't guarantee it." :neener: :D

Pops

MechAg94
July 28, 2005, 08:07 PM
My Dad was a sargeant when he was in the Reserves. He didn't have any problem making my brother and I call him sir. :)

SJG26
July 28, 2005, 08:51 PM
Quote:
Sad point is 95% of the sheeple that watch it without the THR keen-eye present here will think this is a great show - and - "Oh my - how terrible it must be Over There"
Umm ... as I recall ... it actually is pretty terrible over there for most folks who have to go ...



Terrible is probably an understatement - I have complete respect for their work............I meant to convey how most people here will take the show as fact in all forms-(Hollywood hype and all)--------------no intent on my part to belittle the efforts of our military.

4v50 Gary
July 28, 2005, 08:58 PM
"Over, there." As in it's over, there now, are you happy? :p

TexAg
July 28, 2005, 09:06 PM
I loved the little flags to mark the IED! If only...

Bigjake
July 28, 2005, 09:10 PM
:cuss: looked like a "doonsbury" cartoon put to film. utter trash

RevDisk
July 28, 2005, 09:23 PM
I loved the little flags to mark the IED! If only...

IED training has vastly improved since I first joined the Army. At first, they did want you to mark the mine or IED at much closer distance. Now it's move the heck away from it a certain minimum distance or more if it's a larger explosive. Oh yea, and calling it in is generally a good idea.

Exploding it in place with a fifty is strongly discouraged. ;)


Troublesome: dissention in the ranks, sarge to grunts to LT to captain. Hello can you say "the fragging episode" or "the mutiny". it's NOT a democracy.

Heh, I can't count the numbers of times I "disobeyed" an order. Last one was impressive, even by my standards.

"Move out to the following grid and set up a OE-254." (a radio antenna)
"I don't think so, Sir."
"Uh... What?"
"Sir, that grid coordinate is in the middle of a lake, and it's deeper than the OE-254 is tall."
"Uh... Yea. That might be a problem."

:D

homeka45
July 28, 2005, 09:28 PM
Well at least I won't waste anymore time watching it. Worst small unit tactics since "Starship Troopers". :barf:

Black Majik
July 28, 2005, 11:22 PM
Hey! I actually liked Starship Troopers. :D

GunnyBob
July 29, 2005, 01:29 AM
"We Where Soldiers" was the worst modern movie I've seen with regards to this particluar genre. Sure son, wear that plastic baby-ID bracelet in the bush, Charlie's hard of hearing. and isn't it amazing how he throws his hands in the air, screams, and dives to one side after we shoot him...

Bad tactics, bad acting, bad directing, laughable combat. Were the real Colonel to have employed such total disregard for his men he'd still be behind bars.

Onmilo
July 29, 2005, 09:34 AM
Did I mention the commercials in Over There??
God I wish there were that many commercials right in the middle of a firefight in real life!

Shorts
July 30, 2005, 10:23 PM
"What do we do about the women?"

Ohhhh plleeease :rolleyes: That line just got spoken.

Anyway, I'm late to this party, but I'm just now seeing the pilot episode tonight, right now actually.

This film is junk. I could see my husband sitting her with me, knowing exactly what he'd be saying about each and every idiotic line and scene.

But, there are plenty of people who would believe this trash.

I haven't flipped the channel yet. Some of it is the whole 'can't turn away from watching a train wreck'.

Kjervin
August 5, 2005, 10:21 AM
I was in best buy on monday, and was surprised to see the pilot on DVD within a week after the show! Someone really wants to push their message. It kinda puts the lie to the fact that this was just another apolitical show, Huh?
Kj

GunGoBoom
August 5, 2005, 11:17 AM
He's probably hired a couple of mall-ninjas who've operated for the past six years on covert ops in Iraq and Afghanistan as "techinal advisors".

Word. Too bad, I was hoping that it was gonna be a good (realistic) series - probably won't watch now.

Dr.Rob
August 5, 2005, 12:38 PM
The tech advisor is a Marine.

chaim
August 5, 2005, 03:44 PM
Did anyone have the stomach to watch the second installment to see if it got any better? I thought about it but decided I had better things to do. If it improves I might be willing to watch it now and again.

Have I mentioned that I don't own a television and don't really miss having one?
I can't wait until I'm ready for that. I do plan to be TVless (well, no cable or antenna, I'll keep the TV hooked to a DVD player for occasional movies) within a year or two.

Red Dragon
August 5, 2005, 04:41 PM
Having a little experience in acting and some limited technical advising, I have come to the realization that being a tech advisor only goes so far. I have heard directors and writers take the info from the tech advisor and just say "No, that won't work. Let's just ..."
So we can't completely blame the tech advisor. I personally think the whole crew should be sent to one of several Iraq preparation training facilities just to see how soldiers are really preparing to go "over there".

1911 guy
August 6, 2005, 09:35 AM
Haven't seen a move or show yet that comes close to capturing the initial confusion, sound, fear or stress of warfighting. Also have yet to see the cameraderie, dedication or professional attitude of our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines accurately portrayed.

HarryB
August 6, 2005, 10:33 AM
Haven't seen a move or show yet that comes close to capturing the initial confusion, sound, fear or stress of warfighting. Also have yet to see the cameraderie, dedication or professional attitude of our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines accurately portrayed.

How about Band of Brothers?


And not without some flaws, the dramatic version of Memphis Belle, not to be confused with the documentary.

effengee
August 6, 2005, 11:11 AM
Actually, my wife and I watched the whole episode and will be tuning in next week. There's darn few shows that we can agree on and I try to fit in as much guns and war as I can get!!!
Of course it was total Bullcrap! I noted all the dumb little mistakes that were made, however, to my 12 year old son and my wife, the little flags, the soldier's reactions and even a few things I didn't notice, didn't seem to phase them. Overall, we thought the show was a good drama...
In the words of Hollywood directors:
"We're making a movie here, NOT a documentary"
"I never allow the facts to get in the way of the truth"

C'mon guys, it's a T.V. show...
I may be misquoting but I once heard a firearms instructor say something like:
"I once saw Forrest Gump shake John Kennedy's hand on T.V. so don't believe everything you see on it."

She hates MASH but I can get her to watch China Beach... Go figure.
I got her hooked on shows like JAG and NCIS, and she actually asked me to record the A-team marathon that was on a few years ago...

Band of Brothers, Saving private Ryan, We were soldiers, Windtalkers, Enemy at the gates, Platoon, Sniper, Heartbreak ridge, Blackhawk Down, Pearl Harbor, U-571, far too many to mention...
I can get her to watch these because they have certain actors/actresses and I could really care less if they are accurate...
I still think Rambo is a good series of movies... You can stop laughing now.

When has Hollywood EVER got it EXACTLY right?
I've seen man-portable rail cannons, plasma rifles, blasters, and even a sword blade made from a laser that can slice through steel like it was warm butter...

How about these classic Hollywood guns?
The Colt single action army six shooter that shoots double action 7 times.
The three shot double barrelled 12 guage.
The "assault rifle" with an endless magazine of ammo.
The gun that can be re-cocked menacingly without discharging a loaded shell.
The firearm that clicks and rattles any time it is moved into firing position like an old kung fu movie hero's arms and legs always "swooshed" before striking the target...

And let's not forget the bullets:
Made from ballistic ice. :barf:
Miniature programmable rocket propelled missles that seek out the target. How about the bullets that can spark on any surface, including but not limited to, fiberglass car fenders and trees.

Yeah, they suck in the historical sense, but they certainly are entertaining...

If I gripe too much about a certain gun movie/show I don't get to watch it...
On the other hand, I've been barred from watching Full Metal Jacket when her and the little ones are around...
"That Gunny has a filthy mouth..."

Hollywood guns have seldom been portrayed accurately...

jim

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