[Jordan]

I'm experiencing service from CMP that, if it was a business like any other we deal with on gun stuff, I'd be miffed. Losing my stuff, requesting that I (or anyone) NOT call to check on an order for at least 3 weeks so that about a month goes by before I can even call (to find out my order is dead in the water and I'm starting my wait from scratch).
Mostly just a tone of voice with everyone I've talked to there that says, "Hey buddy, we're doing you a big favor even talking to you and you're wasting our time".
If they are a quasi-government sort of thing I can understand this service and level of competence... about what you might expect from the DMV or your local Building Department.
If they are trying to operate as a business (which it seems they are to a degree, suplementing rifle sales with posters, and other paraphanalia) then they have a long way to go with efficiency of processing orders and with attitude towards customers.

[jefnvk]

Sigh.

They are not a business. Up until a few years ago, they were run by some branch of the military. They are a non-profit organization. All their sales money goes to paying for marksmanship activity.

And I would have you find another company that sells a gun as, and when it breaks has it fixed and back to you in less than a week.

If you'd rather, we could have the gov't pay to melt down all those M1's and 03's.

[swingset]

If the recent news about US arms coming back into the country is legit, then the CMP will soon be unneccessary, at least if your goal is to procure a service rifle without dealing with their red tape.

We'll see.

[The Grand Inquisitor]

My favorite part about the CMP is the way they sell us rifles (for more and more every year) that were paid for by our tax dollars.

Although I think my friend Matt could make this point better than I.

What I find most annoyign about the CMP is the way that they are supposedly there to sell rifles to citizens for times of need and for marksmanship training, but now are more than happy to sell 7 rifles to every fat gun dealer (through someone else of course) for the opportunity to jack up the price at a gun show.

Why not limit each person to 2 rifles? Or just one?

[cracked butt]

there to sell rifles to citizens for times of need and for marksmanship training, but now are more than happy to sell 7 rifles to every fat gun dealer (through someone else of course) for the opportunity to jack up the price at a gun show.

And how many M1s do you see these gun show dealers sell? There's a few dealers in the gunshows in my state that buy the rack grade rifles and sell them for $700-800 a piece, or at least try to. From what I've seen, they have a lot for sale at inflated prices but rarely ever make a sale.

They are not a business. Up until a few years ago, they were run by some branch of the military. They are a non-profit organization. All their sales money goes to paying for marksmanship activity.

And I would have you find another company that sells a gun as, and when it breaks has it fixed and back to you in less than a week.

If you'd rather, we could have the gov't pay to melt down all those M1's and 03's.

+1

[swingset]

And how many M1s do you see these gun show dealers sell? There's a few dealers in the gunshows in my state that buy the rack grade rifles and sell them for $700-800 a piece, or at least try to. From what I've seen, they have a lot for sale at inflated prices but rarely ever make a sale.

I see alot of M1's from the CMP at local shows, and they sell....not for $700, but they sell for $500 or $600, and they're making dealers money.

The whole intent of the CMP is being violated by "for profit" guys, even amateur dealers, and it's happening alot.

It sucks, it's not what the CMP is there for, and it needs to change.

At my local club, a dealer that shoots there was actually hitting up people to send in their CMP paper work, getting 5 or 6 rifles, keeping one and selling the others to him at cost, and in trade he'd pay for all the rifles, including the one they keep. That's not only wrong, it's a straw purchase on a grand scale. I told him no, and the club told him to take a hike....but it shows what the CMP is letting happen unwittingly.

[Matthew748]

And how many M1s do you see these gun show dealers sell? There's a few dealers in the gunshows in my state that buy the rack grade rifles and sell them for $700-800 a piece, or at least try to. From what I've seen, they have a lot for sale at inflated prices but rarely ever make a sale.

It all depends on the show. There are only 3 locations within 50 miles of me that put on shows worth going to. Since I cannot mail order ammo due to my county of residence, I generally go to most of them. The number of M1s I see being sold varies. I generally see 1 or 2 vendors selling M1s. Sometimes they only have 4 or 5, and sometimes they have 15+ up for sale. These are not CMP booths either. I have no idea if they sell well or not. I generally see everything at a show twice, buy what I want, then leave.

[Onmilo]

CMP is a buisiness and they are doing serious shooters a big favor by offering the items that they do.
The Government cut the ties with the organization several years ago and it became an independant organization.

Remember, our govt can shut this thing down anytime they choose but they can't force them to sell the products at a loss anymore, the organization is allowed to make money and that money is used to support the shooting sports, in example Camp Perry.

They are doing us a favor by offering items that in some cases are all but unobtainable anywhere else, and the items are still offered at a fair price.

Instead of whining about the amount of time it takes to receive an item or two,r about how the condition of something purchased wasn't quite what was expected, we should be thankful that the program is still there, still thriving, and still providing military hardare to interested civilian shooters.

[Ed]

:rolleyes:

This comment is not directed at anyone in particular, but if you don't like the CMP don't do business with them. Its simple. You don't like their prices, don't buy from them.


Jordan, I understand your frustration, but wait and see, you will be happy when you get the rifle.

As for others coming into the country, yes there will be more if that happens, but what kind of shape will most be in?

[Art Eatman]

I could be wrong about the year, but I think it was around 1926 that the NRA worked to get the Civilian Marksmanship Program set up. There was a Director of Civilian Marksmanship, who was a government employee. That's why us older guys will refer to a "DCM gun".

I paid $35 for a GI Carbine, back around 1967 or so. It was shipped in a wooden crate, by Railway Express. (Hassle!)

Sen. Teddy and others fought to end the whole deal, and many rifles and pistols were destroyed. The present system got put into place, ending the waste.

Nothing's perfect, but for sure the present CMP beats the heck out of that interim period's destruction.

Art

[Greek]

I guess patience in the key. I've purchased a couple M1s, a couple 1903's and some M44s (what a bargain at $75 each!) from the CMP without a problem. I refinished them all. On some of the rifles I had to return them(with no problem on getting a replacement part or whole rifle even after a long time-they do stand by the rifles they sell). That is something that I really think is an advantage. I've never had a problem with them and they do return your calls.
THe rifles I bought all work fine and my wife and I enjoy competitng with them and just shooting them for fun. Cleaning them was another joy :D ... However, it does afford you the opportunity to learn how to take the particular rifle apart and put it back together again.
The paperwork is extensive but worth it in my opinion. The gun show rifles are not guaranteed and do not go through an extensive check as far as quality.
Not sure if the CMP contributes to the increase in prices at the gun shows, probably the opposite. You have a good point about dealers buying a bunch and re selling them but that is hard to control.
The prices have been going up. Time will tell if they will come down if a new source is discovered. Meanwhile, I hope you get what you ordered soon and that you enjoy it when it gets to your home.

[AZ Jeff]

For people who whine and complain about CMP delivery times, try to remember that, prior to the creation of CMP as a for-profit corporation, waiting times were MUCH longer.

When I got my DCM gun, it was a one in a lifetime proposition, and I waited 18 MONTHS for it to ship.

I consider the CMP a BIG improvement over the old DCM system.

[30Cal]

The CMP has a limited supply of rifles. They cannot be in the business of distrubuting them forever.

Unlike the old DCM program (which got money from Congress to operate), the CMP has to cover it's own operating costs through sales. I'm sure it would be nice to have four or five extra people to pick up the phones and answer "when's my rifle coming" questions for those that can't read the answer themselves on the paperwork, but that costs money.

The CMP is further chartered to fund the National Matches, forever. Even after they run out of rifles to sell.

Therefor, they have to sell the rifles in a relatively brisk manner to keep their operating costs to a minimum and build a big enough pile of money to keep the National Matches self sustaining.

It's a pretty simple formula and it should be fairly obvious that the path they're on is the only one that that has the chance of success.

Ty

[Steve in PA]

"My favorite part about the CMP is the way they sell us rifles (for more and more every year) that were paid for by our tax dollars."

Yeah, how dare they do that. I want an M1 Tank, Cobra Attack Helicopter and a HUMVEE right now! After all I paid for it. :banghead:

I've done business with the CMP several times and had excellent service. Don't like the CMP, fine.....don't do business with them. Leaves more rifles for the rest of us :D

I hate the guys who buy the rifles, then mark them up and try to sell them to unknowing people at gun shows, etc. They are ruining the spirit of what the CMP was all about. Hopefully, people will educate themselves about this type of "dealer" and no buy from them.

[AZ Jeff]

My favorite part about the CMP is the way they sell us rifles (for more and more every year) that were paid for by our tax dollars.

I have heard more than one person make this foolish comment about, as tax payers, we already "own" the rifles.

This complaint about paying for these rifles "twice" would make sense if the DOD was selling surplus ships, trucks, aircraft, etc. Since they don't, the point is rediculous.

Be glad the DOD is not paying a contractor to cut up and scrap these rifles. That's that's what they used to do. Now THERE is a true waste of tax dollars.

[HankB]

Jordan, sorry to hear you're having problems.

I have only one experience with the CMP so far.

Late last year, I decided to get a service grade M1 rifle. I sent in my paperwork and $$ and included a polite request on a Post-It note asking for a rifle with a late serial number that wasn't TOO badly beat up.

Two weeks to the day after I mailed in my packet, Fedex delivered my rifle - a 5.9 million series M1 made in 1955, still wearing the original barrel. Clean and sharp rifling, only a few dings in the stock . . . it cleaned up nicely.

Function with LC72 US milsurp ammo has been flawless, and groups at 100 yards are about as well as I can shoot with iron sights.

I'm well satisfied in all respects.

[Onmilo]

Ditto on the HUMVEE, I want mine complete with ring mount and M2 MG or one of those spiffy automatic grenade launchers (Mk2 Mod36??).

[Father Knows Best]

I want an M1 Tank, Cobra Attack Helicopter and a HUMVEE right now!

M1 and Cobra? Feh. I'm waiting for my M1A1 and Apache to arrive. :neener:

[johnmcl]

Back to Jordan's original question of business versus favor, and the obvious answer is both.

I don't feel this is an equal balance though. I do feel CMP is doing the public a favor more than providing a professional service. In fact, just yesterday I received my beautiful H&R from CMP in just under three weeks. I can't think of where I'd be able to buy such a quality M1 for $550 anywhere else but from CMP.

My advice is to consider the arguably mediocre service, the administrative overhead, and the occasional foul-up as the cost of doing business. It is a great thing to have CMP around. Even with the frustrations its sure better having CMP than than not.

John

[Trebor]

I've always found the CMP to be very responsive to customer service issues. The few times I've had a problem, they've always been resolved quickly and in my favor. When I discovered the hammer on one of my M-1's had been "stoned" and was now unsafe (bad job on it), they sent me a new one free of charge. They didn't even ask for the old one back. Another time they send me several different parts to help solve a feed issue with my 03A3. Again, just on my saying there was a problem.

As far as the multiple rifle sales goes, I believe the live in constant fear of being shut down and are trying to sell the rifles before something happens and they are no longer able to sell them.

[Steve in PA]

"M1 and Cobra? Feh. I'm waiting for my M1A1 and Apache to arrive."

Hey, I'm old school. I was originally going to ask for an M60 :D

[heypete]

I had an excellent experience with the CMP.

I mailed off my paperwork, then sent an email to the "general contact" address on their website informing them of a vacation I was taking from Jul 29 - Aug 15, and would they please not send the rifle in between those dates. No response.

When I got an email from them saying "we've received your order, wait three weeks before bugging us", I replied with the same message. No response.

A few days later, a woman (Judy something) wrote back and let me know that a note was attached to my order (aha, so it did go through!) about those dates, and was wondering if I would like the rifle before or after the vacation. I replied "before, if possible, afterwards if that's all that can be done".

The rifle was on my doorstep two days later...and is it a beauty. :D

Total wait time from my sending of the paperwork until FedEx delivered the rifle was about a week and a half, tops.

I offered to mail her and the other people responsible for handling my order some boxes of chocolates. :p

I've been very impressed with the CMP, and hope to conduct honest business (as opposed to straw purchasing for dealers...bah!) with them again in the future.

[Cosmoline]

If they're the only ones who can get the old Garands and other war rifles out of surplus and into public circulation, I don't care how rude they are. Even if I don't buy from them I still benefit.

OTOH I'm not really sure why they're the only ones who can access these overseas supplies of Garands. Certainly the private sector has kept a healthy supply of other nation's surplus coming.

[agtman]

Well, here's my admittedly limited experience with CMP.

I made a personal visit to the store at Camp Perry last year. I wanted a U.S.G.I service grade M1 Garand - for me to shoot now and, eventually, to pass on ...

The ones on the service grade rack looked, uh .. "picked over." So I asked a friendly older gent ( ;) ) who was standing around if he might find a good one for me in the back. He said "sure," grabbed a barrel guage and disappeared (he was gone a while and I started to think he snuck off behind a pallet somewhere for a snooze).

When he finally emerged, the M1 he was carrying had a stock that looked like the gun had been buried under a half-track since Omaha Beach. But when we pulled the stock off, there wasn't ONE smidgen of wear on the parkerizing or "shiny" spots on the parts (there's wear now though :D ).

Plus, the muzzle gauged somewhere between "0" and "1". The throat guage similarly showed virtually no wear. The gent said it had probably been rebuilt, rebarrelled, test-fired, and put away. Better than "service grade," I felt. And this gentleman was very kind to have spent time in the storage area digging through M1s and gauging them to pick out a nice one for me.

Well, that's the story. Maybe I lucked out, but I enjoy my service grade M1. It shoots surprisingly tight at 200yds, and hasn't been bedded at all. No trigger job either. Just a nice stock Garand.

"Doing us a favor?"

Maybe. But CMP's operating motto ought to be:

"The CMP - Arming Americans Everyday."

:cool:

[jefnvk]

Two more points.

Who else can you buy a rifle from, and have it shipped to your door? (excluding C&R license holders)

As for the reselling, yeah, it sucks. I think a graduated price scheme should be used. The first two cost list price, the third 10% more, the fourth 25% more, the fifth 50% more, the sixth 75% more and the seventh and eighth 100% more. That would allow the colelctors to still fill their colelctions, and put a damper on profit making on a bunch of rifles.

In all honesty, CMP simply cannot afford to go after those that are buying and reselling.

some M44s (what a bargain at $75 each!)

?

[Thunderstick]

What? Have you never had a bad encounter with a business?

From the CMP catalog......

The Act (of Congress) mandates that the corporate mission of the CMP is the "instruction of the citizens of the United States in marksmanship"

Later....

To fund these activities, the law gives the CMP authority to sell surplus riles.

Yes, they say don't call them for 14-21 days. Probably added that after being inundated with calls from people checking on their order during the first week.

The best way to beat the gun show resales is not to purchase. If you don't like the CMP route, the gun show is your option.

Check out Title 36 USC Chapter 407 for all the details of the federal law concerning the CMP.

[ocabj]

Losing my stuff, requesting that I (or anyone) NOT call to check on an order for at least 3 weeks so that about a month goes by before I can even call (to find out my order is dead in the water and I'm starting my wait from scratch).

The reason why they don't want people calling for at least 3 weeks after the order form is sent off is because it takes at least a week just to get the order in the system, and more often 2 weeks. If people kept calling at the 2 week mark just to find out about an order, the CMP employees have to take the time to look up an order that probably wasn't even entered in the computer yet and this takes time away from them actually entering in the orders slowing down the order processing more.

[MechAg94]

I have ordered a 1903A3 and a service grade HRA M1 this year. Both came in within a month.

The HRA M1 took about 3.5 weeks. I log into their online system. It took 2 weeks for them to get the order in their system. My rifle was shipped within the following week. It looks beautiful. Gonna have fun with it this weekend.

If I may ask, what did you order that is having problems?

[Thunderstick]

Good point, MecAg! An IHC maybe?

[dogngun]

Jordan, thanks for starting an interesting thread.
I work for the government, not THE government, but a State government.
Government employees are subject to laws restricting our rights to speak and act in public in matters of politics, that is, we are not allowed to criticize the government or the politicians for which we work. The politicians are NOT bound by any such laws, or in many cases by common decency or common sense.Many pols use government workers of whatever status as easy targets who are forbidden to speak in their own defence.Pols actually make the laws, and order the workers to implement the laws, then blame the evil workers for the pols thoughtless and stupid BS.( Gosh, I hope I'm not out of line here.)
My point is, give this agency a chance, and don't go in to your dealings with an attitude. You will find most of the people there are on your side.

Sorry, but just my .02.
Thanks.
Mark