Funny thing (good) heard in airplane;


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simon
July 29, 2005, 11:48 AM
at LAX last night.
Part of my part time job is cleaning planes after the passengers disembark.We were on the aircraft doing a cursory cleaning, the flight was a quick turn,when the senior flight attendant came on the PA to let the other FA's know that the captain and first officer were armed, and that there was a DEA agent boarding also armed in 27c.
Just thought this was interesting enough to pass along.

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Vern Humphrey
July 29, 2005, 11:51 AM
At last!

A commercial pilot who isn't qualified with weapons and armed is no more fit to fly these days than a pilot who isn't qualified to land.

Father Knows Best
July 29, 2005, 11:55 AM
I wonder how many pilots these days are armed. I assume it is a lot. I personally know three pilots (one Northwest and two FedEx), and all got licensed to carry while flying as soon as TSA announced the program a few years back.

Rockrivr1
July 29, 2005, 12:00 PM
They'd be crazy not to carry. Hell if you can then do it and don't wait. I fly a lot and those doors to the cockpit might be locked now, but they sure do look flimsy enough to kick in pretty easily. At least if they armed the person doing the kicking is in for a rude wake up call as he/she comes through the door.

Not exactly sure I agree with telling people though where the air marshal is sitting. I would think that would be kept secret even from the flight assistants.

Texian Pistolero
July 29, 2005, 12:50 PM
The guy in 25C is a setup. I say that the stewardess has a small pistola strapped to her inner leg just south of Area 51.

Candiru
July 29, 2005, 01:08 PM
Texian Pistolero said: I say that the stewardess has a
small pistola strapped to her inner leg just south of Area 51.

You've just given me a wonderful new euphemism.

To make this post topical, my father-in-law and brother-in-law are both
pilots. If they were to ask me for a recommendation, I'd steer them
toward .38 snubbies loaded with frangible ammo.

Frandy
July 29, 2005, 01:18 PM
My question is, as pilots work for different corporations, is there a standard for the weapons they might carry - has the guvmint provided recommendations - or is each and every carry decision at the individual discretion of the pilot?

richyoung
July 29, 2005, 01:32 PM
If they were to ask me for a recommendation, I'd steer them
toward .38 snubbies loaded with frangible ammo.


Why in the world would you reccomend a short barrel, marginal calibur, low penetration solution? Surely not the old "explosive decompression" myth? A pressurized airplane is a continuous leak - a few pistol bullet holes aren't going to make a difference. Numerous pressurized B-29s were shot by much larger calibures - explosive decompression was not a problem - (Now, EXPLOSION WAS a problem, but more due to the fuel and payload than the pressurization scheme.)

Luchtaine
July 29, 2005, 01:37 PM
The Frangible is probably more in regard to large numbers of people confined in tight spaces. The last thing you want is a round over penetrateing and or ricocheting about the passenger compartment.

MoeMentum
July 29, 2005, 01:40 PM
Nice, they just blew the DEA guys cover , in 27c. Bet that made him happy..

Windhover45
July 29, 2005, 02:09 PM
MoeMentum Nice, they just blew the DEA guys cover , in 27c. Bet that made him happy..

How so? Reading the orignal post I had the impression that the airplane was empty of passengers and tha announcement was for the flight attendants. I'm guessing so that, if the flight attendant saw the DEA guy's weapon accidently, he/she wouldn't freak. Also, they'd know who to go to, in case there was any trouble.

DigMe
July 29, 2005, 02:30 PM
If they were to ask me for a recommendation, I'd steer them

I believe the gun and ammo is controlled and designated by the powers that be.

brad cook

EOD Guy
July 29, 2005, 02:32 PM
Not exactly sure I agree with telling people though where the air marshal is sitting. I would think that would be kept secret even from the flight assistants.

I believe it was a DEA agent, not an air marshall. Anyway, the crew is required to know who is armed (legally armed at least). One reason is that they are not allowed to serve alcohol to anyone who is carrying a firearm.

Yes, some armed LEO's will try and buy a drink while they are flying. I was with a Secret Service agent flying between two presidential candidate support missions one time when he ordered a beer. The flight attendant wouldn't serve him and I took delight in telling him how good my beer(s) tasted. It was good natured harrassment, since I'd known him for years. :)

spacemanspiff
July 29, 2005, 02:34 PM
i dont have enough security clearances to gain access to area 51.
:( :neener:

MacPelto
July 29, 2005, 02:51 PM
The Frangible is probably more in regard to large numbers of people confined in tight spaces. The last thing you want is a round over penetrateing and or ricocheting about the passenger compartment.


I would think that terrorists taking over and deliberately crashing into things would be last thing that I wanted, or at least lower on the list than being hit by an over-penetrating round. ;)

Mac

thorn726
July 29, 2005, 03:33 PM
DEA agent boarding also armed in 27c.

yeah i dont like that one much either. the "cover" of his job not so much the issue, but if terrorists were aboard, they know who to jump at first.

telling people the capt and other guy was armed, fine, but why front off your undercover?

look at it this way== if there were terrorists, they might decide t owait till another plane. if they had struck,. they woulda been caught

EOD Guy
July 29, 2005, 03:53 PM
The announcement was made before the passengers boarded. I believe that FAA regulations require that the crew knows who is armed.

Trebor
July 29, 2005, 03:55 PM
The .gov has mandated what pistol and ammo is carried by the armed flight deck crews. IIRC, it's a Sig in .357 Sig. I might be confusing that with the Air Marshall issue though.

DigMe
July 29, 2005, 03:58 PM
IIRC, it's a Sig in .357 Sig. I might be confusing that with the Air Marshall issue though.

I think that's what the air marshall's pack. I believe the pilots are different but I may be wrong. I've heard rumors of H&K.

brad cook

KAR120C
July 29, 2005, 04:26 PM
Read an article in TIME last year that claimed air marshals did in fact carry the .357 Sig. Don't know about pilots, but am curious.

This is great news by the way. Couldn't be happier to hear pilots are carrying. I agree with Vern... they should all be REQUIRED to carry.

I know a guy who was terrified when he heard pilots would start carrying. "the terrorists will just take their guns away and use them against them" :barf:

eerw
July 29, 2005, 04:42 PM
Believe most of the pilots who want to carry go to a Federal training facility for firearms and crisis management..

there was a couple of articles about training at the FLETC facility in NM..

A guy that shoots in one of the IPSC clubs is a marshall..I know he carries a SIG..not sure on caliber..

Ego Archive
July 29, 2005, 04:44 PM
So let me get this straight... The senior flight attendant had to notify the rest of the crew that the pilot and co-pilot had guns...so they wouldn't serve them alcohol? :scrutiny:

Heh

-Area 51 agent-

Vern Humphrey
July 29, 2005, 04:53 PM
I know a guy who was terrified when he heard pilots would start carrying. "the terrorists will just take their guns away and use them against them"

Reminds me of me Grand-da, old Captain Jack Clooney. He was a bad one for going to the dentist, but me Grandma made him. He was nervous in the chair, so the dentist says, "Cap'n Jack, try some of this mouthwash first" and hands him a tot of Irish whiskey.

The old fella knocks it back and the dentist says, "Ready now?"

And the old fella says, "Maybe if I could have a bit more of that mouthwash."

So he knocks back another tot, and the dentist says, "Are ye ready now?"

But the old fella asks for one more. After he puts that one down, the dentist says, "Okay, open wide."

And the old fella says, "Faith and I'd like to SEE the man who'd touch me teeth NOW!"

*************************************

And I'd like to see the man who'd take a loaded gun from me.

Rickstir
July 29, 2005, 05:09 PM
You didn't by chance ask the stews what they thought about the crew/passenger being armed did you?

simon
July 29, 2005, 05:59 PM
the airplane was empty of passengers and tha announcement was for the flight attendants.

Yes to the above.

You didn't by chance ask the stews what they thought about the crew/passenger being armed did you?

No, I didn't.
I did however smile at her and give a little Yipeee!

Norm357
July 30, 2005, 08:30 AM
The .gov has mandated what pistol and ammo is carried by the armed flight deck crews. IIRC, it's a Sig in .357 Sig. I might be confusing that with the Air Marshall issue though.

The Air Marshalls are usingthe .357 Sig. The pilots are issued .40s. I have no idea what gun but I do know the caliber because I delivered the ammo for the TSA. I did ask and got a curt none of my biddness. :D

Edited to add: They just in the last couple of months, started requalifing(sp?) pilots to be armed after a break of more than over a year. Bout time if you ask me.

MikeIsaj
July 30, 2005, 08:54 AM
To make this post topical, my father-in-law and brother-in-law are both
pilots. If they were to ask me for a recommendation, I'd steer them
toward .38 snubbies loaded with frangible ammo.Last thing you want is frangible ammo on an airplane. The bulkheads are full of important electrical components, wiring and hydraulics. The last thing you want is a bullet breaking up and going in seven different directions inside the wall.

Announcing who was armed over the PA is not a good idea. Flight attendants were not the only ones notified. The event is reported by a support person not on the flight crew. This info should be delivered personally to the crew.

An armed DEA agent onboard. Is this the same agent who is the "only one in this room qualified to use this weapon?"

TechBrute
July 30, 2005, 09:07 AM
If he was a DEA agent, wouldn't he be wearing black BDUs with bright yellow letters muttering, "I'm the only one on this plane professional enough...," under his breath. That would have TOTALLY blown his cover.

EOD Guy
July 30, 2005, 09:21 AM
So let me get this straight... The senior flight attendant had to notify the rest of the crew that the pilot and co-pilot had guns...so they wouldn't serve them alcohol?

Heh


No, armed passengers. That's just one reason for the notification.

double0757
July 30, 2005, 10:06 AM
Flight Deck Officer, that is the name of the pilots that carry guns in the cockpit. It is a voluntary program. We have about 100,000 commercial pilots in the US, that would be permitted to carry a weapon in the cockpit and maybe about 10 percent are FFDO's. Every year they add about 1000 and because they are having a problem with Air Marshals retention they plan to double or triple that number in the coming years.

The Pilots don't get pay extra. I think TSA gives them a .40 cal H&K and a week of intencive training, with all the bells and wisthle of the Federal Government. I think they requal every 6 month.

I've seen them shoot at my shooting range and have talk to them. A small hole in the fuselage is not going to depresurize the airplane or take it appart. They count on hitting the BG in the center of mass and if no stop follow by a head shot.

Double O

Tankcommander
July 30, 2005, 09:40 PM
FFDOs carry H&K USP compacts, government issue. FAMs have 357 Sigs.
Every day Federal Officers fly armed, you would be surprised how many are in the air at anyone time. They have to notify the airline they are flying armed.

TC

MoeMentum
July 30, 2005, 10:29 PM
Yes, I can see it now....plane takes off, terrorist jumps up, grabs the flight attendant, puts a nail file to her throat, and says "who in here has a gun" Flight attendant, in 27C the DEA agent, the head flight attendant made an announcement just before takeoff ! Please, don't hurt me.......

Vern Humphrey
July 30, 2005, 10:57 PM
Yes, I can see it now....plane takes off, terrorist jumps up, grabs the flight attendant, puts a nail file to her throat, and says "who in here has a gun" Flight attendant, in 27C the DEA agent, the head flight attendant made an announcement just before takeoff ! Please, don't hurt me.......

Lemee get this straight -- terrorist has the flight attendent with a nail file to her throat, I've got the gun. What do I do?

I say, "Awfully sorry, ma'am. I'll pay to have his blood cleaned off your uniform."

Buck Snort
July 31, 2005, 01:04 AM
As for using frangible bullets to avoid "overpenetrating" and injuring or killing an innocent passenger, lets stop and think about that for a minute. This airplane will have at least one hundred passengers aboard. Why use anything less than a first class lethal bullet and MAKE SURE the BG is put down in a hurry? If one or more innocent passengers are injured or killed that's a far cry from the entire plane going into some large building because the perp could not be neutralized. Its a real bummer but ya gotta play the odds whether ya like it or not.

Destructo6
July 31, 2005, 02:25 AM
Just finished talking to a few FIDOs, on grad night. Forgive the spelling, but the Coyote will do that.

Anyway, it is a week-long course (Sunday to Saturday) and the pilots/flightcrew generally have to take vacation time to attend the all-volunteer course. It's a burden on them and we should be dang happy that they take the effort to qualify. They are issued .40 S&W cal HK pistols. The entire course of fire is done at very close ranges, like the kind you'd expect to encounter in a pit.

To the best of my knowledge, they use the same ammo (155grn Federal JHP) that most other Federal LEOs use.

Double Naught Spy
July 31, 2005, 02:36 AM
A commercial pilot who isn't qualified with weapons and armed is no more fit to fly these days than a pilot who isn't qualified to land.

Flight fitness pertains to medical and mental aspects of the pilot. Training and possessions do not determine fitness. They may determine preparedness, but not fitness.

Last thing you want is frangible ammo on an airplane. The bulkheads are full of important electrical components, wiring and hydraulics. The last thing you want is a bullet breaking up and going in seven different directions inside the wall.

If the frangible is something like compressed copper, then it would be a fine choice. When a compressed copper frangible fragments, it turns into dust. Each piece of dust takes with it a small amount of energy. The dust isn't going to have the energy to do much in the way of impact harm. It isn't going to cut through hydraulic lines, wires, and the like. When you bleed off energy through a few thousand pieces, dividing the energy of the bullet by a few thousand, you are left with dust particles that probably contain an ounce or less of energy.

Anyway, the crew is required to know who is armed (legally armed at least).

I don't believe this is completely correct. The crew may be required to know who in the crew and regular non-Marshall LEO passengers that are carrying, but I believe the Air Marshalls do not have to have their information known all the time.

Feanaro
July 31, 2005, 03:33 AM
Yes, I can see it now....plane takes off, terrorist jumps up, grabs the flight attendant, puts a nail file to her throat, and says "who in here has a gun"

This situation is about as likely if no one is armed. He could grab the stewardess simply to try to gain access to the cockpit, a far more likely reason IMO. You deal with it the only way you can deal with a hostage situation. You kill the perp or talk him out of it. Perhaps explain that if the stewardess dies, you will be quite distressed. Distressed enough to blow his kneecaps off and watch him squirm for a bit. And if the gunman is behind him... well, he never saw it coming. If he kills the flight attendant it would be a terrible shame. But unarmed flyers would have LESS power over the terrorist, lacking ranged weapons, not more.

Fly320s
July 31, 2005, 04:04 PM
Quote:
Anyway, the crew is required to know who is armed (legally armed at least).



I don't believe this is completely correct. The crew may be required to know who in the crew and regular non-Marshall LEO passengers that are carrying, but I believe the Air Marshalls do not have to have their information known all the time.
The pilots and flight attendants are notified of All armed people on an airplane.

Andrew Rothman
July 31, 2005, 04:32 PM
Fly320s,

Is it safe to assume that you, um, fly 320s as a commercial pilot?

http://www.airbus.com/store/mm_repository/images/117x76_title_box/att00000636/media_object_image_117x76_new_A320.jpg

Fly320s
August 1, 2005, 05:02 PM
Matt Payne: Fly320s,

Is it safe to assume that you, um, fly 320s as a commercial pilot?
Yes, I do.

Andrew Rothman
August 1, 2005, 05:12 PM
Then I guess we have our definitive answer, from the horse's mouth. Thanks!

Once again I'm tickled by the wealth of information THR users possess and share.

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