(VA) Police say homeowner 'scared for his life;' suspect shot 10 times


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Drizzt
July 30, 2005, 04:38 AM
Shooting in Bluefield

Police say homeowner 'scared for his life;' suspect shot 10 times

Posted: Friday, Jul 15, 2005 - 09:38:03 pm EDT
By ALYESHA ASGHAR
Bluefield Daily Telegraph

BLUEFIELD - Police in Bluefield continued their investigation Friday into the shooting death of a Bluefield, Va. man, who sustained 10 gunshot wounds following an apparent altercation Thursday night.

"Witnesses say that Ricardo Lee, 40, who was an acquaintance of the homeowner, forced his way into the Hubbard residence without permission," Lt. Tom Helton, with the Bluefield Police Department, said. "He had a knife in his hand and the owner of the house had asked him to leave repeatedly, but Lee refused. Witnesses said Lee wanted to talk to someone in the house."

According to Helton, Dennis Hubbard, 57, the owner of the home at 210 Poplar St. told him that he (Hubbard) was in fear of his life and shot Lee 10 times with a .38 caliber pistol. Helton said the shooting occurred at approximately 9 p.m.

Lee was transported to Bluefield Regional Medical Center by Bluefield Rescue Squad where he died as a result of his injuries, Helton said.

http://www.bdtonline.com/articles/2005/07/16/news/01death.txt

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c_yeager
July 30, 2005, 05:08 AM
Sounds like a good shoot to me.

This part is a little puzzling though:

shot Lee 10 times with a .38 caliber pistol.

Davo
July 30, 2005, 05:12 AM
1 shot. or 10...he was justified-he shot till the threat no longer was one.

Azrael256
July 30, 2005, 06:32 AM
shot Lee 10 times with a .38 caliber pistol. .380 maybe? I can't think of one that has a magazine that big off the top of my head, but I don't doubt that such an animal exists.

berettashotgun
July 30, 2005, 07:21 AM
Hahaha... HAD to be a .38, otherwise the homeowner would've got in trouble for "excessive" force :p

71Commander
July 30, 2005, 10:07 AM
Browning BDA. 13 shot.

If it was a .38 and had to reload, shoot em once or shoot em to the ground. outcome is no different.

Shovelhead
July 30, 2005, 10:17 AM
From articles I've seen, "shooting to slidelock" when in fear of one's life is not that uncommon.

PX15
July 30, 2005, 12:19 PM
Hey, I'm all for home defense, and if it takes 10 to do the job, so be it.

I just wonder how the fact that 5 or 6 wasn't enough to STOP THE THREAT, so a "reload" was required, will play out in the legal system.

I don't think we are really assured of a reasonable defense when we take a life in this circumstance. I'm not saying the guy wasn't within his rights in protecting himself, or his loved ones, I just think there's gonna be a phone call from the deceased's relatives to a crooked lawyer, and it's gonna get nasty even if the shooter isn't charged by the Police.

And, it's gonna get EXPENSIVE too......

Does the phrase "overkill" ring a bell?

Glad he stopped him, just wish (as a gunowner myself) he could have done it in the first 5 or 6. The reloading, and shooting another 4 or 5 times just seems like leaving the arena of self defence to another thing entirely.

JMO.

Best Wishes
JP :D

cslinger
July 30, 2005, 12:27 PM
I seriously doubt a reload occurred but I chuckled when I read the article thinking "Damn dude reloaded and kept on going."

My guess is that it was a .380 like everybody else said and he shot till slide lock.

I don't ever want to shoot anything that bleeds or ever had a mother and I know I would be so scared out of my wits that I would go to slidelock. I am sure some of you train to the point of reflexive double taps, assess other threats and continue but I suspect the great great majority of us would simply keep squeezing till the threat fell to the ground and considering that the human animal is a tough beastie barring a CNS shot in the amount of time it would take the average person to drop a whole magazine the threat would probably still be standing or just in the process of going down.

Prayers for the guy who did the shooting. Sounds like a good shoot and here is hoping it plays out that way and that he is able to deal with the inevitable emotional issues that he will have to deal with.

One of the things the pisses me off more than anything as far as crime goes is that if some scumbag trys to kill somebody and that person is forced to kill them then the good guy still gets robbed of a certain level of emotional well being. Well at least I know I would.

Chris

Steve in PA
July 30, 2005, 12:39 PM
"From articles I've seen, "shooting to slidelock" when in fear of one's life is not that uncommon."

This is very true, as I have read the same thing.

It does sound like a good shoot.

Alot depends on what the BG was doing. Was he still a threat to the homeowner? If he was then needing to reload and protect yourself/family is not an issue.

But, was the BG wriggling on the floor because he had just been shot, not necessarily a threat, and the GG reloaded and kept shooting? Then he might have a problem. Of course he could claim the BG kept moving towards him and or the knife.

carebear
July 30, 2005, 01:16 PM
When reporters hear or read a police report with ".380 (acp)" in it they generally don't have a clue about guns and assume it's a typo for ".38 (special)". That's if the cop talking to them or filling out the report writes it down correctly in the first place.

Remember, a journalism degree just makes you qualified to report the news, it doesn't mean you know any real information about the news. :rolleyes:

HogRider
July 30, 2005, 01:27 PM
Would sound reasonable to me if this was a snub nose 38 with a speed loader. Some people actually do practice reloads with those once in a while. :)

BryanP
July 30, 2005, 01:36 PM
Taurus makes .380's with 10, 12, and 15 round magazine capacities. The Bersa Thunder .380 Deluxe has a 9-round magazine, so he could have had 9 in the mag and one in the chamber.

I'm sure there are other pistols that fit the facts.

carebear
July 30, 2005, 01:42 PM
Might have been a full-race, double-stacked, comped .38 Super. :D

Steelcore
July 30, 2005, 01:43 PM
It could have been a .38 Super Automatic.They hold 9+1.

TODD3465
July 30, 2005, 01:46 PM
And don't forget the .38Super either.

Not common but still out there.

Navy87Guy
July 30, 2005, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Azrael256
.380 maybe? I can't think of one that has a magazine that big off the top of my head, but I don't doubt that such an animal exists.
Glock 25 (.380 ACP) holds 15 rounds and the Glock 28 holds 10...although they're not supposed to be available to civililans in the US (I don't know why). There's also the SW1911 in .38 Super that has a 10-round magazine. Of course if the guy had a $2000+ pistol, you would hope that he would have a little more composure operating it. While shooting to slide lock may be a natural reaction, part of the idea of training with firearms is to instill new habits...like aiming, control, etc.

I know...easy to say because I wasn't the guy having to do the shooting. And while there's no guarantee I wouldn't do the same thing (except he'd be wearing 15 or 17 rounds of 9 mm instead!) that doesn't stop me from trying to train and learn against the possibility that someday I might have to use my firearm to protect myself or my family.

PX15
July 30, 2005, 03:23 PM
When I read the initial post where the dead guy was shot 10 times with a 38cal pistol I, (possibly incorrectly) ASSUMED (and we know what that means) that the "pistol" was in fact a 38 Cal Revolver, which "generally" has a capacity of 6 or 7 rounds.

What I forgot was that whoever wrote the article probably didn't have a clue as to whether it was a 5 or 6 shot revolver, or a semi-automatic pistol of some 38cal sounding round.. (380 for example).

In retrospect IF the firearm was indeed a 5/6 shot revolver a reload was obviously done.. IF the firearm was a "pistol" with a magazine then I can completely understand how the whole magazine could easily have been emptied at the deceased.

It's so easy to forget that it seems the majority of people writing articles in America's newpapers DON'T seem to know anything about firearms. Sad, but true.

I know if someone breaks into our house and threatens my wife or myself we will most likely be seriously scared enough to deplete whatever number of rounds the firearm we pick up first is capable of firing.

If I can reach the 12ga. pump riot shotgun, a reload will NOT be necessary.

JP :D

Chrontius
July 30, 2005, 06:00 PM
Does the phrase "overkill" ring a bell?

Rule 37: There is no overkill. There is only "Open fire" and "I need to reload"
- Howard Tayler

Otherguy Overby
July 30, 2005, 06:37 PM
Now if it woulda been my 9x23, the first magazine would have been 20 rounds (19+1) If I would then have reloaded and put the "big stick" in, it would have been another 29 rounds.

Otherguy, why'd you shoot him 49 times?

Me: Sheesh at $12.99 a box, I figured that was enough. You think I should shoot him some more?

Partisan Ranger
July 30, 2005, 07:57 PM
Man unlawfully enters house in Virginia with knife and won't leave....soon shall be dead. Unless it's Northern VA near DC, then the feel-good liberal type would probably hand him his wife and television as a good will gesture.

HankB
July 30, 2005, 09:27 PM
There's a .38 Auto round, too, sometimes called .38 ACP . . . same dimensions as .38 Super, but lower pressure.

Sounds like the homeowner actually got 10 hits, which is better than most LEOs in gunfights seem to do. :D

chopinbloc
July 30, 2005, 10:34 PM
he is able to deal with the inevitable emotional issues that he will have to deal with.

clint smith had a good article in american handgunner about feeling guilty after a good shoot. he says (as we all know) there is no reason to feel bad because it was the other guy's actions that caused his demise as surely as strolling across a busy freeway. he goes on to say that most of the people he's talked to didn't exactly lose any sleep over wasting some oxygen thief who was trying to kill them. i can't say for sure how i'd feel, but to be perfectly honest, i don't think a good, clean shoot would bother me much at all.

Bob F.
July 30, 2005, 10:40 PM
That paper's not know for it's accuracy.


Bob

musher
July 30, 2005, 10:51 PM
I'm impressed he hit the guy with 10 shots---ESPECIALLY if it turns out that was what he had in the gun.

Of course, he coulda been loaded up like otherguy. That would be a more typical rate of hit to miss.

Standing Wolf
July 30, 2005, 10:56 PM
...the owner of the house had asked him to leave repeatedly...

Not in my house!

musher
July 30, 2005, 11:05 PM
He probably asked him to leave after every shot!

Buck Snort
July 31, 2005, 02:23 AM
Yet one more example of why one wants to use a weapon that is up to the task. If he'd shot ME with that .38 sp. I'd've been on the floor in a heartbeat. BUT, if he had to shoot some guy well over six feet tall and well over 200 LB who'd just loaded himself up with PCP, Meth., or H (or perhaps some combination of the three) then he needed something with much more stopping power. For a home defense gun the 12 ga. shotgun loaded with slugs should be up to the task.

Cesiumsponge
July 31, 2005, 02:51 AM
Jeez, don't you watch the movies? If you shoot the badguy once and turn your back into the sunset, he WILL open his eyes. Then someone in the orchestra hits a timpani drum real loud and he'll get up, and lunge at you...which is when the screen freezes, faces to black and "to be continued..." is burned into your retinas in bold white print!

I don't see anything wrong. I wouldn't shoot someone once, evaluate the situation with a series of questions directed to said suspect to evaluate his physical incapacitation and awareness (or lack thereof), then shoot/not-shoot based on his replies until he goes down permanently.

No...I'll shoot until the guy goes down and stops twitching.

MechAg94
July 31, 2005, 03:13 AM
Springfield makes their GI mil-spec 1911 in .38 Super with 9+1.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-pstl-1911-ms.shtml

cxm
July 31, 2005, 08:50 AM
The CZ 83 is .380 and holds 13+1.

Then there is the .38 Stupid auto...

Or the paper could have just been wrong...as they usually are.

FWIW

Chuck

hightech
July 31, 2005, 09:14 AM
Sounds like 10 hits was justified. The intruder was hit 10 times and lived to be transported to the hospital where he died. Some of the hits were obviously not incapacitating. Shot placement is everything but dificult to do in a crises.

bjbarron
July 31, 2005, 09:21 PM
Sounds like the homeowner actually got 10 hits, which is better than most LEOs in gunfights seem to do.

Yes, this was the interesting part for me also. How many times do we read of cop shootouts with 48 cases laying around and only the neighbors homes peppered. Recently a guy shot 14 rounds at a burglar with a Hi-Power and missed them all. Amadou Diallo got hit 19 times standing in a doorway with the cops on the stairs and sidewalk...and they shot 41 times.

Either this shooter practices a lot,is preternaturally calm, or both. Maybe he uses the advice I give my wife. You can't miss if you stick the gun against them and pull the trigger 'til its empty.

I think he should get a marksmanship medal.

Tylden
July 31, 2005, 10:05 PM
With my shottie, I can put 8 in him with one shot :evil:

Flyboy
July 31, 2005, 11:48 PM
You can't miss if you stick the gun against them and pull the trigger 'til its empty.
No, but if you're shooting a 1911, an extra quarter-inch of push means you can't fire at all.

LiquidTension
August 1, 2005, 12:56 AM
I'm also interested in what type of weapon the shooter used. If he did reload, it's even more impressive than if he didn't.

jaysouth
August 1, 2005, 01:11 AM
He had what folks in the area call a "West Virginia reload". A spare J-frame in his overalls. two j-frames = 10 rounds.

And all you folks thought that was called a NY reload. ;)

gezzer
August 2, 2005, 04:32 AM
Q. WHy did you shoot him 10 times?

A. I ran out of ammo. :what:

Dr.Rob
August 2, 2005, 05:05 AM
still ten rounds from a 38 super... shouldn't that guy be dead?

MechAg94
August 2, 2005, 11:47 AM
If it was a 1911 in .38 super, that wouldn't have a lot of recoil. You could pump 10 rounds at short range into a man size target.

He was obviously not a complete novice whatever gun he used. :)

Coronach
August 2, 2005, 02:30 PM
We assume that the reporter has details correct (.38, .380. 10 hits, 10 shots. etc). This would, all too often, be an incorrect assumption.

I, too, am curious about the number of shots. It would be exceptional, but by no means impossible, that someone might require 10 hits to stop. What would also be exceptional, but again not impossible, was if it was a .38 spl revolver, and there was a reload in the middle.

THAT sounds like a bad day. Hit him six times with .38 spl, and he's still a threat? Okay...I got more where that came from, buddy. Just gimmee a second...

Mike

BriGuy1
August 2, 2005, 02:37 PM
One poster said: "I am sure some of you train to the point of reflexive double taps, assess other threats and continue..."

Sorry, but this will get you killed. If you have to shoot, keep shooting until the threat is gone. Shoot twice, assess=give the bg time to press on their attack.

The Viking
August 2, 2005, 05:29 PM
SAS Officer: "Why did you shoot the terrorist 39 times?"
Soldier: "Because I ran out of ammo sir"
:evil:

c_yeager
August 3, 2005, 04:13 AM
still ten rounds from a 38 super... shouldn't that guy be dead?

You can take ten rounds of 50BMG and live if they all end up in the right places. Granted, you wouldnt be a happy camper afterwards.

USMC_2674
August 3, 2005, 02:33 PM
A couple of points:

I am not a defender of police and their "accuracy", as I too believe they are far too inaccurate for someone who is required to use it to defend a person.... but, police generally shoot outside of homes where the range might be a little greater. Just a thought.

And, it takes a body time to fall people. Just because you shoot someone doesn't mean they fall to the ground instantly. How many of you can fine 10 shots in 3 seconds? 2 seconds? 1 second? Well, it takes a body a couple of seconds to fall to the ground. Hell if the intruder is up against the wall when shot, you could empty a mag or two into the person easily before they fall to the ground. They could stumble towards you as they are dying making you feel even more endangered with that knife in their hand, etc.

I personally don't consider the person a non threat until they are on the ground and no longer moving... which means they could potentially have 10-30 holes in him or her if they take a few seconds to get to the ground or are against a wall.

Semper Fidelis,

Kent

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