Has France grown a spine??


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ravinraven
July 30, 2005, 08:03 AM
Drudge is reporting this morning that France is shipping Islamic hate ministers back to their countries of origin even if they have obtained French citizenship. They apparently have the largest Muslim population in Europe.

This coupled with the renoucing of terrorism by certain leaders of Islam here in America bodes well, methinks.

rr

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gringolet
July 30, 2005, 08:07 AM
now, if we and the brits would ship some of the hate-mongers out of our own nests that would be nice! Ultimately the Muslimns themselves are going to have to decide if they want to be members of the civilized world and conduct their affairs in open and free political discussion or if they want to slink about with their children packing bombs strapped to their chests as their means of addressing the rest of the world. Is gfood some of their "clerics" are speaking out against the murder and suicide, it's been a long time coming and hopefully it is the start of a long hard look into itself by the Islamic world.

Mongo the Mutterer
July 30, 2005, 08:10 AM
The gulf between British and French treatment of preachers of hatred and violence was thrown sharply into focus yesterday when France announced the summary expulsion of a dozen Islamists between now and the end of August. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/core/Content/displayPrintable.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/30/ncleric30.xml&site=5)

From the article. Question... When does "summary expulsion" mean "the end of August"? Good step for France, however.

Maybe they are seeing the light a bit, but I doubt it. Why aren't they jailing these imams?

bakert
July 30, 2005, 08:17 AM
I just cannot get enthused about the French. When the country is mentioned to me I think of a place that Germans like to "visit", big noses, haughty attitudes and street corner pissoirs.

MikeIsaj
July 30, 2005, 08:21 AM
This is no change for France. They've always been concerned with protecting their own interests. They've never hesitated to ask us for help.

It's the rest of the world they don't care about.

Waitone
July 30, 2005, 09:31 AM
Considering France's population is something like 12%, expelling the haters is a gutsy move. I wonder if their intel people are saying some really unpleasant things.

Rebar
July 30, 2005, 09:37 AM
France could become the next Islamic Republic if they don't get things under control, and fast.

armoredman
July 30, 2005, 09:57 AM
The Louve would make a heck of a mosque....

XLMiguel
July 30, 2005, 10:32 AM
According to Fox News this AM, the Brits are changing their laws to jail the hate mongers.

Just a guess, but I suspect putting them in solitary (if that's what they do) might be more effective than exporting them back to their point of origin where they can fester and ferment trouble for export back to EU

Time will tell..

Warbow
July 30, 2005, 10:51 AM
This isn't new. France has been deporting Muslim clerics who preach hate before this. I think people get caught up in the "France is wussy" mantra because everyone else says it and it just keeps getting repeated. But of all western society countries, France is one of the last ones you want to be suspected or arrested for terroristic activities.

Byron Quick
July 30, 2005, 11:00 AM
France growing a spine?

Nope, another poster has already said it but I'll repeat it: France acts in its own interests and cares not about the interests of any other country.

France rails about US unilateralism. Let Al Quaeda hit Paris as hard as New York was hit. When the French get a handle on the whereabouts of the group...watch the mushroom clouds blossom.

CAnnoneer
July 30, 2005, 11:34 AM
+1 Byron

France is an iron fist in a thick velvet glove. Squishiness is superficial. Once you cut deep enough, you are going to hit the metal.

Since Napoleon, they have not really been a world power, so they overcompensate by criticizing anyone bigger than them, to reassert their independence and thus ego. Just like a chihuahua.

They may honestly hate Dubya, but I do not think they have EVER really hated America.

Kurush
July 30, 2005, 11:49 AM
+1 to previous two comments. France has had a chip on their shoulder the size of Henri Petain ever since they surrendered in WW2, and maybe even since the Franco-Prussian War. Dien Bien Phu made it worse. They specifically hate the US and England because they know we saved their keisters from not only Nazi Germany but also from becoming a Soviet client state, and they can't stand it.

rick_reno
July 30, 2005, 12:12 PM
When the Italian police searched that terrorist scumbags apartment it's being reported they found maps of the Paris Metro system. Maybe they were going to take their bombing campaign there next.

Waitone
July 30, 2005, 12:44 PM
The found four types in NJ with NY metro maps and $8,000 in cash. Report aired once and disappeared.

longeyes
July 30, 2005, 02:03 PM
Lots of problems with France, yeah, but grant them this: They have a sense of what it is to be FRENCH, for better or worse. We can learn from that kind of self-scrutiny and self-definition.

1 old 0311
July 30, 2005, 02:24 PM
For sale: One French Military rifle. Never fired. Droped once during surrender.

Kevin

Byron Quick
July 30, 2005, 02:39 PM
For sale: One French Military rifle. Never fired. Droped once during surrender.

Ever notice what happens when it's French peacekeepers in Africa? The fighting generally stops the moment they deploy. There's a reason for this. The French military doesn't believe in using diplomacy or surgical strikes when they have this great big sledgehammer. What was the country in Africa just recently that shot a couple of French planes? The French response was to destroy that country's entire air force.

Now I'm not claiming that French military forces are super bad. But the record shows that it's not a good idea to be on the side that has less military muscle than the French. When they get the upper hand; they don't figure they should have to fight you again.

gc70
July 30, 2005, 02:51 PM
The Ivory Coast.

Iain
July 30, 2005, 03:07 PM
Deporting their own citizens is a good thing?

That kind of implies that they are deporting them to countries they aren't citizens of, and sort of says 'you're not really French, we can kick you out at any time' to a great swathe of the population. We support this? Remember who came second in the last French presidential race (in a choice between a ******, a turd sandwich and a fascist)

Try people for (real) crimes and lock them away if they have done anything, I don't support booting people out of a country of which they are a citizen because we don't like some of the stuff they say.

I actually think the French are on the whole ok (-UK rebate and a few other things) and that a lot of the criticism around here is unfounded. Strange that when you agree with them, I don't.

It was the Ivory Coast by the way. French aren't popular there, the Ivorian 'Young Patriots' (pro-Government youth organisation) recently got up a petition to become the 51st state and help you smash the French.

CAPTAIN MIKE
July 30, 2005, 03:09 PM
Around my office, when anyone mentions France, we all laugh. France is still trying to figure out who to Surrender to.

France thinks that if it takes a bunch of hate-mongering, talkative extremists and sends them somewhere else on an airplane that will solve the problem but it leaves those vermin still able to speak, write and foment hatred for anyone who is not a Muslim extremist. And very conveniently it gives them a free airplane ride to their "prime recruiting ground".

Muslim extremists no more represent Islam than the KKK represents Christianity. Unforunately, Muslims don't have an equivalent to the The Pope who can excommunicate the terrorists. They apparently don't have a religious hierarchy that has the moral fortitude to publically and repeatedly denounce terrorist and kick them out of the Muslim Faith. They can't exactly take away their Membership Cards and "fire" them as Muslims.

I say that hate-mongering by Islamic leaders is a clear sign of departure from the moral tenants of Islam. Terrorist are not "martyrs" - they are, pure and simple, killers and murderers of innocent people who are guilty of nothing more than being non-Muslims.

Until the Muslim mullahs and the "silent majority" of Muslims publicly demonstrate and march against Terrorism and Extremism, many non-Muslims will treat Muslims with disdain and suspicion. And that's a sad thing. Any way you slice it, having your religion hijacked by people who give it a bad name is sad thing.

France doesn't have the B*LLS for it but they should legislate against hate-mongering and make it a Capital Offense.

longeyes
July 30, 2005, 04:22 PM
Deporting their own citizens is a good thing?

I think a citizen is more than someone who takes up real estate and relies on welfare. Advocating violent overthrow of your adopted nation is constructive forfeiture of citizenship.

Iain
July 30, 2005, 04:40 PM
Plenty of people that we couldn't even begin to deport anywhere have advocated such things. We couldn't deport them because they aren't 'foreign' (regardless of actual citizenship). That sort of makes this a race thing.

CAnnoneer
July 30, 2005, 05:12 PM
+1 longeyes

Also, the real watershed is if they advocate a violent change of the government or not:

1) Non-violent change - Ghandi's - let them preach under free speech.
2) Preaching violence - jail time.

If you can't deport them, use #2. If there is no direct law about it, why not make one? Meanwhile, put them in protective custody to save them against the righteous indignation of their neighbors. In any case, letting enemy agitators and possibly recruiters run amok is just insane.

Byron Quick
July 30, 2005, 05:17 PM
That sort of makes this a race thing.

Being Arabic is a cultural phenomenon. Being Muslim is a religious phenomenon. Neither depends on race in any fashion. Most people in southwest Asia and the Indian subcontinent are considered Caucasian by scientists. Race is not determined by skin color alone. For example, the aborigines are not classified as Negroes. Neither are the Bushmen of the Kalahari Desert in South Africa.

Tell me, if I kick an Arab imam out of the US...that could be racist, huh? Even though he's a red head?

Iain
July 30, 2005, 06:36 PM
Kicking them out because they aren't French/American/British/Saudi enough, despite their naturalisation status, strikes me as being about their race.

You can't kick out a British-born guy from Britain, even if he is holding large meetings in which he advocates Hitlerian policies. You can decide to charge him with crimes, if they are applicable, and see if it sticks. Then he goes to prison. Why should you be able to kick out same man if he were born German, but had lived in Britain for 20+ years and held a British passport?

Abu Hamza has been a British national for 20+ years. If we were to decide to deport him, where would he go? I believe he was born in Egypt, but he isn't an Egyptian any more. As he is a British national he should be subject to the same laws that I am, and were I to stand on a corner at Finsbury Park and preach hatred, are they going to deport me?

What the French are doing is deporting citizens to countries where they are no longer citizens because it is convenient not to have try them for crimes that other French citizens could expect to be tried for in similar circumstances. These people aren't 'French enough' anymore to be afforded the same legal protections that other citizens are, and this is being decided purely on the basis of where they were born. So yes, it's racist.

edit - it's possible that the term I should be using is 'nationalist' and also 'nationalism'. Not sure where one begins and the other ends. Maybe Jean-Marie Le Pen could give me some pointers.

longeyes
July 30, 2005, 08:03 PM
Abu Hamza has been a British national for 20+ years. If we were to decide to deport him, where would he go?

In ancient times exile was the preferred punishment, not imprisonment. Maybe time to revive it? That doesn't mean sending them back to their countries of origin or descent necessarily. It means creating an Alcatraz archipelago for people who have yet to comprehend what civilization entails. You don't like the idea? I don't like having my buses and subways blown up by people who are "citizens" in name only. Why play semantic games?

HankB
July 30, 2005, 08:22 PM
The Louve would make a heck of a mosque.... I just had a mental image of some mullah using a box cutter to remove the face from the Mona Lisa . . . :uhoh:

IZinterrogator
July 30, 2005, 08:33 PM
France growing a spine?

Nope, another poster has already said it but I'll repeat it: France acts in its own interests and cares not about the interests of any other country.
And having several bombs going off only a Chunnel ride away is definitely not in France's best interests. I'm suprised they didn't do this last year when Madrid was bombed, but who knows how the French make decisions anyway...

XLMiguel
July 30, 2005, 08:48 PM
According to Reuters, upon hearing that the Islamofascist terroist captured in Rome had maps of the Paris Metro system, the French today raised their terror alert level from "Run" to "Hide". It should be noted that this is only a moderate alert level. Should more bad news be discovers, the alert may rise further to "Surrender", and if somthing actually happens, it may go to "Collaborate". :evil:

CAnnoneer
July 30, 2005, 09:10 PM
You guys are really underestimating the French. If anybody employs a retaliatory nuclear strike, it will be the French. The US just has way too much baggage from WW2 (including from "bleeding hearts" who would not have been around now to complain on account of their grandpas getting killed in the invasion the bombs prevented ) :evil:

mountainclmbr
July 30, 2005, 10:16 PM
The self-centered interests of france and their criticism of other countries that do the same is just old news. I visited France once, was treated VERY badly, and boycot their products and their (smelly) country. It has been 20 years and counting. Require Germany to keep france next time, it will be just punishment for both!!!!

GILROY
July 30, 2005, 10:33 PM
I just came back from accompanying my wife on a week long trip to France. I went over fairly disgusted with their open stance against our actions in Iraq. I came back not putting them all in the same boat. Had an interesting conversation with a 34 year old female worker there. She said most of the older Frenchies did not agree with their governments stand against America concerning the war. They still remember the sacrafices america made (and still makes) for their freedom and security. Her grandmother lectured her and reminded her that the Americans are responsible for the freedoms and prosperity her family enjoys. Also told her stories of how their family risked their lives to hide a British soldier in their home that was stranded behind the lines. They are still friends with that soldier today. She agreed that Frenchman over all don't have much heart to fight for themselves and would rather let others fight for them. She seemed angry and a bit embarrased about that. She also agreed that Sadam was a potential Hitler in the making and it was good that we did wait to deal with him as we did with Hitler. She said the current pres was basically appeasing the young librals to assure his re-election.
I must also admit, that though obviously american when I opened my mouth, I was treated VERY well in all social encounters. I also treated them as I wanted to be treated. One guy on the plane over got on the bus at Paris airport openly bad mouthing the french to his buddy for all to overhear. I bet he was not treated very well. They are a very passive, laid back culture. It was obvious that they wont make good fighters. They just want to sip the wine, enjoy the scenery and don't work or fight too hard. On a side note, I have never seen so many drop dead beautiful and flirty friendly women in one town (Paris) in my life. I am happily and faithfully married to a wonderful woman. but even my wife admitted, the women there were attractive and forward. I like France :}

Marshall
July 30, 2005, 11:10 PM
On a side note, I have never seen so many drop dead beautiful and flirty friendly women in one town (Paris) in my life. I am happily and faithfully married to a wonderful woman. but even my wife admitted, the women there were attractive and forward. I like France :}

Think I'll book a flight, I haven't taken summer vacation this year yet. :D

Buck Snort
July 31, 2005, 01:56 AM
One thing that few Americans seem to know is that it was the French Marines who showed up on our shores and brought the British general Cornhead (or whatever his name was) to heal and sealed our victory against King George! We became a free and independent country because of the French, and we can never thank the sniveling bastards enough for that!!

Justin
July 31, 2005, 02:06 AM
I think this one has run its course.

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