[bmoney13]

I am fairly new to rifles and I was wondering if the mosin nagant 1891/30 would be a good deer hunting rifle. I will be hunting in missouri if that makes any difference. I also want to know what the recoil is like because I am newer to shooting and I want to be somewhat accurate. I have shot a .300 win mag but that wasn't my favorite thing to shoot. I don't mind the 3 1/2 inch mag sheels out of my benelli nova pump though. Any help would be appreciated. Oh and I am open to any other mil surp suggestion under $100. I don't want to buy an expensive rifle until I get into deer hunting a little more, and the older rifles add a little individuality.

[KriegHund]

Just dont get the carbine :) Um, not for hunting anyways.

Bolt actions are good for first guns, milsurp not neccesarily so.
Be sure to clean it really well or you may get a FTF, make sure to get any cosmoline out of the bolt. http://stevespages.com/page7b.htm should have a manual for it in .pdf.
Check the barrel throat if you can for erosion. Any erosion will effect accuracy. Try to get the best barrel you can.
All in all Mosins are very good rifles. The recoil shouldnt be too much in such a sturdy gun but it will be quite noticable. Nothing too bad or unmanagable.

Here it is http://stevespages.com/pdf/mosin-nagant.pdf

[jefnvk]

Yes, it will work fine for deer.
No, it doesn't kick much at all.
No, it is certainly not hte best choice for deer.

I am a big advocate of buying a deer rifle for deer hunting. Not that I have a problem with people using milsurps, just that they usually are not the best choice. They are much bigger and heavier than needed, and it may take a few rifles to get one with decent accuracy and zero for hunting.

Used .30-30's go for under $200, you could probably buy a new one at Wal-Mart for that. New Savages can be had for the mid $200's.

If you insist on surplus, the Mauser would probably be the better choice. There are variations available for about $100, and much more aftermarket supplies for them.

[Marnoot]

I've never hunted with a 91/30, but I know that plenty of Russians have and still do use the Mosin for just that. Recoil is fine as long as you're not doing extended bench-rest sessions. www.surplusrifle.com is another good website for info on the rifle.

[Magnum88C]

The 91/30 is a good deer rifle, not great, but good.
It's plenty powerful. It does have a few drawbacks, though. First is they are sighted in with the bayonet attached. The bayonet is 17 inches long, giving you a rifle that is 5.5 FEET long. If you want to hunt without the bayonet (bayonets are illegal to hunt with in some states, check your laws), you might have to rezero the rifle. Some rifles it doesn't make much difference, some it will make a lot of difference. Recoil isn't bad, despite rumors to the contrary.

I agree the Mauser would probably be better as a hunting rifle, unless you also want to collect Mosins not just hunt with them.

IMHO, the better choice, as far as Milsurps go, would be a No4 Enfield. Much smoother action than either the Mosin or Mauser, and much better sights than either (get the Mk1 or Mk3 sights, they combins a 300 meter battlesight, with an adjustable ladder sight graduated from 200 meters to 1300 meters. The ladder sight is an aperture sight).

However, if you don't have an interest in milsurp collecting, but need an inexpensive rifle, I'd recommend a Savage kit that comes with rifle, sling and an OK scope for little money.

[Smokey Joe]

Bmoney13--Given yr price limit, you can't do better than a Mosin. They are not the world's most accurate rifles but within, say, 100 yd, you can easily keep all shots inside of minute-of-deer.

Recoil for the 7.62x54R cartridge is about medium. Having said that, it's too much for some people. It'll be considerably less than the .300 Win mag you mention shooting. Recoil from a shotgun isn't the same at all, especially an autoloader. (Not saying that shotgun or rifle recoil is worse, just that they are different. There is no clear comparison between the 2.)

I agree with Krieghund, you want the rifle, not the carbine. It will be heavier (bad for hiking through the woods) but that will tame the recoil all the moreso. And he's also right, CLEAN IT before shooting.

The other thing is, practice, practice, practice. When you face a deer your heart will be racing, your knees knocking, and your hands shaking. You will have to already be good at shooting the rifle and hitting what you aim at.

You can do a lot of practice with FMJ ammo that is cheaper. Before hunting, though, you'll have to shoot some soft-point (hunting) bullets (more expensive but more humane, and a legal requirement most places) through it, to find out if they have the same point-of-impact. IMHO, that's just part of the cost of doing business.

So get the rifle well before season, and run as much ammo through it as you can possibly manage beforehand. Know where the gun shoots in relation to the sights.

Another thing to do is to know the deer's anatomy, so as to make your first shot a quickly lethal one. That is the humane and sporting thing to do. There is a book available, The Perfect Shot--North America by Craig Boddington, that illustrates a deer's vitals very well, and shows you shots from several angles.

Good hunting! We'll need a follow-up report! :)

[bmoney13]

thanks for the replies I was looking at mausers also. I really want an sks but the price is a little too much. Oh and my shotgun is a pump Smokey. Anyways, I am interested in collecting but my money situation doesn't quite allow it yet. So, I will go cheaper first to see how I like it. Thanks

[Smokey Joe]

Bmoney13--Yeah, you said pump shotgun perfectly clear. When you said Benelli I presumed autoloader. My bad.

Anyhow, a Mosin is a FINE start to a lifetime of collecting milsurp and other rifles. And until you got more discretionary income, it'll do as a deer killer, if you do your part. I don't think that nowadays you will find a Mauser worth having for $100.

Enjoy!

[PAC 762]

For under $100, I'd look closely at a K31. You'll probably need to find someone to load you some soft point ammo for it, however.

[bmoney13]

I am going to a gun show in washington state on the 14th of August I am hoping to find something there. It is going to be killing me, but I will have to wait to shoot a gun if I get it because I have shoulder surgery tomorrow (Baseball injury). Let's see, that makes it my third surgery in under two years. Seems like a good pace. By the way, I am only 21.

[cracked butt]

If you are going to hunt in the open and your shots are 100 yards or less, the 91/30 should be ok. Just make sure you are hunting at distances short of where you can put all of your shots into a pie plate. If you are hunting in the woods, forget about the 91/30, A Mauser carbine such as a VZ-24 or Yugo M-48 would be much better, a No4 enfield would be better yet.

[Mauserguy]

bmoney13, I'm planning on joining you this next season. I will take a Mosin, though it is a carbine. I have rifles that cost a lot more, but you know what, I can shoot a Mosin pretty well at moderate distances, and it is so much fun to use a piece of history. There are gun snobs who will look down on a Mosin, but with a little practice, I bet that you will learn to outshoot most of them with their expensive sporters. Get the Mosin, be safe, and have fun.
Mauserguy

[bmoney13]

thanks mauserguy! I figure it will get the job done with the sub 100 yard shots I will be taking.

[Commissar Gribb]

the mosin's pretty light and will kill about any animal it hits. grab a box of JSPs and you'll be set.

as far as 91/30s go, you can't beat up for price.

[MrTuffPaws]

Okay, I own an M44 and all I can say is that it kicks, a lot, and that if you want it for deer, it would be no problem on putting one down.

Honestly, it kicks as much as my 300 Savage, which is a lot. I had to go out and get a shoulder pad to stop the bruising.

[Davo]

If its mostly for hunting, Id recomment the K31. They are inexpensive and have a better saftey for hunting than the mosin (still not the best though). They also can do double duty as a target rifle, and are usually around twice as accurate as the mosin. They are poor plinking rifles due to the higher price of ammo. This is where the mosin comes into play, as you can plink all say for a fraction of what it would cost using other rifles.
That being said, the mosin is a fine rifle, and will certainly do the job.

[longrifleman]

Where in Missouri?
I have examples of all the rifles discussed. If you are interested in trying some out, drop me a PM.

And Smokey is right, soft points are required for deer in Mo.

It sounds like it might be over the budget but the adjustable sights on the Enfield #4 are tremendously better than the notch and post sights on any of the other rifles being discussed. The older your eyes get the better they will be.

[Sleeping Dog]

Yes, Mosins will work fine on deer. The 91/30 doesn't kick much, not like the shorter M44 or M38. The gun isn't very heavy, either, so carrying it isn't a big problem.

Shoulder surgery? If you just want to shoot, shoot it left-handed (assuming bad right shoulder). It's trickier aiming with the off-eye than it is shooting with the off-hand, but it beats sitting on the sideline.

Regards.

[armoredman]

My Mosin M38 will more than take a deer at 100 yards - I can get 3.5 inch with Wlf, and a little larger with milsurp. You have to buy soft point - I don't know any state that allows hunting with FMJ/military ammo.
If you are brush hunting, with short shots like that, the M44 with attched pigsticker will help hold recoil down, or the cleaner M38, (my personal favorite), are easier to maneuver in tighter spaces. A slip on recoil pad made shooting the M38 a lot of fun - Ivan must have been a LOT tougher than I ever expected, or the reason they only carried 60 rounds into battle was because they would only shoot one round a day.... :p
For about $100 you should be able to get an M38, recoil pad, and a couple of boxes of OK soft point ammo. Then have LOTS of fun! :cool:

[Kalashnikov]

Get the mosin. Despite what many members here say, it'll do deer just fine. True its heavy but unless you're a feather weight, you should shoulder it just fine. Plus the 54R will kill just about anything that it hits.

[Lonestar.45]

I have a 91/30, and haven't hunted with it yet, but plan to do so. It recoils about like my Remington .270 BDL. Not soft, but not magnum-like. If you can handle a 30-06, you'll be fine.

One thing nobody mentioned though, and this is what concerns me the most about using this rifle for deer hunting, is the safety. It is cumbersome, and somewhat loud for deer hunting IMHO. This may prevent me from using it much. Not a problem if the deer is 100yds away and you've got a 10 minute look at him from a box blind, but could definitely be a problem if you're walking through the brush and get a 4 second glimpse at 30-40 yds.

I'll probably use it to take a deer or two just for posterity, but I doubt it'll take the place of my lever action 30-30 or my .270 BDL as my main go-to deer rifles.

[Commissar Gribb]

why use the safety? Wouldn't it be easier to keep 4 in the mag and the keep the chamber empty till you're ready to fire?

[Cosmoline]

A 91/30 is perfectly fine for a woods rifle. Yes, it is quite long but it is also very well balanced. It sits easily on top of the shoulder or balanced in the hand for miles.

Accuracy-wise, there's a lot of variation in the USSR ones. The Finnish Mosins are more accurate on average but also more expensive. Among USSR mosins, look for PRE-WAR builds with good crowns and tighten the receiver screws down. I've been able to get solid 2MOA groups out of pre-war 91/30's with good crowns. The amount of wear and tear on the rifle and stock in other areas is not important, though a matching rifle is better than a parts gun. The bolt should feel kind of smooth but sloppy going in and out, like it's pieces are rattling in your hand. it should not be too stiff. If at all possible, go to a shop with a variety of 91/30's and run the bolts in and out, inspect the crowns, etc. That will get you your best Mosin. If you see one with a two-piece stock and an [SA] mark on it in the same pile as the soviet mosins, GRAB IT and sell it to me :D

Re. the carbines, I carry an M-44 for bear protection, but I would NOT want to have to shoot it hunting without some serious ear protection. It's extremely loud. If you've got some hunting earplugs, though a carbine that groups 3MOA or would might make a good woods rifle.

I've carried 91/30's, Mausers, and K-31's as bear guns over the past decade here, through some very rough trails. The Mausers were too heavy and did not balance well while in their original stocks--though they were fine in sporter stocks. Ditto the K-31's. The 91/30's, though, always remained light in the hand in spite of their weight and length. The safety is great once you get the hang of it and you can easily carry the beast by grabbing the thin wood around the front and hanging the rest over the back of your shoulder, barrel-forward. I didn't even use a sling with mine. It rides like that for miles and miles, and you don't have to worry about a branch knocking that 20 lb. safety off! I love Finnish Mosins, but none of them have as nice a balance as the everyday 91/30.

[jefnvk]

why use the safety? Wouldn't it be easier to keep 4 in the mag and the keep the chamber empty till you're ready to fire?

No, definitely not. You wait until you are ready to shoot to rack a cartridge in, unless you are in some sort of sound deadening blind, and you'll spook the deer.

Completely forgot about the Enfield. That would be my choice if I had to go milsurp. However, I am still of the opinion that if you are starting out, something made more with deer hunting in mind would be better off. This is coming from someone who did hunt with an Enfield last year.

[Commissar Gribb]

No, definitely not. You wait until you are ready to shoot to rack a cartridge in, unless you are in some sort of sound deadening blind, and you'll spook the deer.

:scrutiny:

this is why I dont hunt

[Essex County]

you want a long, akward, military rifle,of catch as catch can accuracy, with a hard to manipulate saftey that was designed in the late 1800's. I have three and I love them all. I think I'd grab one of my K-31s first. Whatever ENJOY!......Essex

[goon]

Personally, I love the Mosin. I have two of them and I like them more than any new wallworld remchester special.
They are not deer rifles, but I am one of those guys who could care less. The most fun guns I have are far from "hunting" guns. The SKS, FAL, Mosins, and AK get shot more than any deer rifle that has ever been in my family.
Of course, there are exceptions (I REALLY want to get a 99 Savage .308 some day), but most of my guns are just shooters that I make do what I want them to.
Were I you, I would get a Mosin Nagant and see how that works out for you. If nothing else, you are only out something like $70.

[Cacique500]

You'll be fine with a Mosin...and if you can scare one up (you might be price limited) look for a Finn M39 Mosin - best and most accurate Mosin out there and it will certainly take you out more than 100 yards. Take a look at www.gunsnammo.com - you can find an M39 'beater' there for a decent price.

One thing nobody else has mentioned is that the vast majority of milsurp ammo that'll you find in 7.62x54R will be corrosive...no big deal, but just make sure you look up how and take the time to properly clean your rifle (and do it that same day). Takes me an extra 10 minutes to clean the my M39's vs some of the other non-corrosive rifles.

Aim Surplus, Ammunitionstore, SG, Century, etc all have great deals on ammo. I just got 2640 rounds (6-440 rd spam cans) delivered for $258, or just under $0.10/rd.

[roo_ster]

I plan on picking up a Mosin...but then, I already own Mausers and Swiss rifles.

The Mosin will do the trick for ~$100. Commercial soft points can be had.

The K31 Schmidt-Rubin 7.5x55 Swiss can do it better, however, for that budget range. Commercial (Hornady) softpoints are in several gun stores near me. Buy some GP11 milsurp & get some shooting done, then buy the Honadys. Mine was/is pristine & I paid $160. A K31 in less pristine condition can be had for ~$100.

[Cosmoline]

I don't know why people are saying the 91/30 and related carbines are not deer rifles. On the Mosin boards there have been plenty accounts of folks blowing bambi through next week with Wolf SP's. I'm gearing my M-39 for black bear next month.

[Magnum88C]

The Mosin is fine as a deer rifle, really.

Just set the sights to 200 meters and hold dead on. The verticle track of the bullet will hit in a deer's vital area to 200 meters, maybe a tad further, set like that.

Only reason I can think that people would think that a Mosin isn't a good deer rifle, is because maybe they can't shoot without a scope. If you need a scope, a scope base that replaces the rear sight coupled with an IER scope will do just fine.

Last year I got two hogs with an M44 Mosin using the 203-gr Barnaul SP ammo. Killed 'em bar-be-que dead, no problem.

[jefnvk]

I don't know why people are saying the 91/30 and related carbines are not deer rifles.

I just don't think it is an appropriate rifle for a first time deer hunter. Certailnly will work well for someone who is into milsurps and deer hunting, but for someone getting into deer hunting, I just don't think it is right.

I have hunted with milsurps. Commercial rifles are much lighter, made somewhat with hunting and carrying it around all day in mind. As I mentioned before, deer spook easy. There are times when you may have to hold the rifle in position for some extended period of time, waiting for the deer to present a good shot. You just can't bring the gun up and down, you have to hold it up. A light rifle is much nicer for that.

While some Mosins are tack drivers, many aren't. Especially when looking at Russian 'rack' grades. The vast majority of commercial rifles will outshoot most milsurps. Certainly there are some excellent shooting milsurps out there, but a standard, picked out of a barrel Mosin isn't likely to be it. I have seen Mosins that wouldn't group in a foot, they were just plain worn. You don't want to be hunting with that. And, if he is considering a Mosin to save money while getting in, it wouldn't be good to get one of those, just to have to buy another and another until you got one that would shoot well enough.

There is some SP ammo available for the 54. Not much, though. All I have seen is Silver/Golden Bear 204 (201?) gr, and Norma (expensive, $30+ a box). This may or may not be the optimal ammo for what he wants, and his rifle may end up not liking it. 200+ is getting heavy, and if he is looking to save money, $30+ a box isn't helping. Same if he had to invest in a loading setup.

As previously mentioned, the safety on the Mosin, quite effective while standing, is ackward, especially for someone still learning. And personally, I have a hard time operating it with gloves.

I think it would be a great gun for a Mosin lover to go hunting with. I don't think it would make a decent starter rifle. If you are still insisting on milsurp, I take ore of a look at a Yugo or Czech mauser, or even better a Swede if you could find one cheap enough. The Yugo and Czech should be able to be found for less than $100. There are a few more 8mm loads available, I think all the ammo manufacturers have at least one load out. I think on a general scale, the accuracy is a bit better, although you still run into the very real risk of getting one that won't shoot. Obviously, weight is still an issue, but one that won't be overcome with any milsurp.

The Swede, or even Swiss would be my pick if I had to hunt with a milsurp. Again, the weight issue is still there, but accuracy will be good. They didn't let their guns get to the point where accuracy would degrade. The Swiss, however, you will need to reload to get SP's, adding extra cost to the price. The Swede will probably run you close to or over $200, putting you into used or cheaper new commercial guns. It does have some good commercial SP loadings, though.

If I were to hunt with a Mosin, it would be a rebarreled Finn. But again, you are looking at the $200 price there, where you could get a more suitable beginning deer gun.

[Cosmoline]

I don't know. I've gone back and forth on that issue myself, but frankly the Mosin is probably the easiest rifle to learn to use. Certainly the technical aspects of the rifle are VERY simple. A person can strip one down an put it back together with little or no training. If I try to take a "classic deer rifle" such as a Winchester '94 apart I end up with a pile of tiny parts and a headache.

I would say that for shooters WHO ARE USED TO leverguns or traditional American-style hunting rifles, the Mosin often runs against the grain. Its safety is weird and the rifle looks funny. Even an expert like Mike Venturino revealed a lot of rank ignorance and bias in the article he did on the 7.62x54R for "Handloader" this month. There's a certain strain among American rifle shooters who look on Russian rifles with deep suspicion. maybe it's a generation thing :D

But for a true newbie, there's no reason he can't find a good shooting, pre-war 91/30 or and use it for deer hunting. The newbie hasn't gotten used to anything in particular yet. For a young shooter with good eyes, there is really no need for a scope on a deer rifle. With a few test runs at the range you can sight in a 91/30 and use the tangent sights very effectively out to 150 or 200 meters. IMHO the problems of selecting, mounting and sighting in a scope are far more complex than the problems of picking out a good shooting Mosin. The bottom line is, these are rifles designed to be used and abused by the Red Army's lowest common denominator. They are extremely tough, reliable, safe and simple.

You're right about the quality issue, though. I don't get mail order 91/30's because you don't know what you're going to get. If you can do an inspection of ten or twenty 91/30's, though, you can almost always find a good shooter or two. Like I said it's largely a matter of good crown, matching numbers and a tight stock fit. Pre war production is usually better, and hex receivers are often the best. Yes, that's a little bit of legwork, but nothing you have to go to college for.

As far as ammo, there are at least three Russian factories--Wolf, Barnaul and Bear--that are turning out a range of SP ammo. It's extremely easy to find in any city with a fair number of gun stores. It can be ordered very easily, as well. If I can get it up here, you can sure get it down there.

[Davo]

jefnvk makes some valid points, though I must say that 7.5 swiss is availible in good hunting loads from hornady, running $20/20rounds. Also the k31 is very accurate and will match many hunting rifles. Milsurp ammo for the k31 is not by any means the cheapest, but is consistant enough that while learning to shoot the rifle you know any errors are yours, not the rifles, or the ammo.
Bottom line is he can get a k31, 120 rounds of near match grade milsurp ammo, a box of hornady hunting ammo, and perhaps have enough left over for a gunsock and cleaning supplies for 200 bucks.
I love my 91/30, but I gotta recomend the K31!
PS-as a thought, would it be feasible to decock the k31 on a loaded chamber, and than simpy pull the cocking lever when its needed, acting as a saftey?

[Commissar Gribb]

remchester special.

LMAO!! I gotta remember this one :D

[jefnvk]

though I must say that 7.5 swiss is availible in good hunting loads from hornady, running $20/20rounds.

I did not know that. I stand corrected, the K31 may be one to look at.

I guess I didn't think of the whole completely new person having a problem with the Mosin. If they have had no experience, I guess it would be just as easy to learn as any gun. And you are definitely right about field stripping a milsurp over a commercial gun.

The scope part I will argue. A scope is much easier for me to use to identify whether or not a deer is legal. Last year, I had a (unknown at that point) buck standing about 35 yards from me. His head was behind some brush, though. At this point, my gun was up, as previously mentioned, because the other deer, a doe, was staring right at me. Picking up binocs was out of the question, but a scope would have been real easy to use. Had I known the deer was legal, yeah, I could have dumped him right there with irons. But in that case, I'd have given just about anything for a scope.

And if you could point me to some of that other 54 SP, that'd be great. My friend hunts with a Mosin (part of my argument comes from his struggles with his gun), the only thing we can find is 200+ gr SP's, which we both think are a little heavy.

[cracked butt]

PS-as a thought, would it be feasible to decock the k31 on a loaded chamber, and than simpy pull the cocking lever when its needed, acting as a saftey?

No! You don't want the firing pin sittng against the primer.

The Swiss safety is very simple. Pull the firing pin back, rotate it about 45 degreesand there will be a shelf on the firing pin that rests against the back of the bolt shroud.

I don't get mail order 91/30's because you don't know what you're going to get. If you can do an inspection of ten or twenty 91/30's, though, you can almost always find a good shooter or two. Like I said it's largely a matter of good crown, matching numbers and a tight stock fit. Pre war production is usually better, and hex receivers are often the best. Yes, that's a little bit of legwork, but nothing you have to go to college for.

I agree. Out of the 5 mail order MNs I have, only one could be considered accurate enough to take hunting, and just barely at that, all were made from 1942 to 1945 with the exception of a 1954 romanian which happens to be the worst shooter out of the bunch, and the most worn out. Unfortunately where I live its either mail order MNs, picking through the overpirced bottom of the barrel grade rifles stocked by Dunhams, or buying someone else's castoff at a gunshow.

[jefnvk]

picking through the overpirced bottom of the barrel grade rifles stocked by Dunhams

I do hope you wait for them to go on sale for $70, right? You haven't been buying them at $150, the list price, have you? :uhoh:

I got lucky to get a decent shooting 91/30 from Dunhams, will print three touching at 50 yards. I think it is a 37. But, you just gotta know what to look for, and get the good ones, especially if you are using it for hunting.

[cracked butt]

I do hope you wait for them to go on sale for $70, right? You haven't been buying them at $150, the list price, have you?

I bought 2 at dunhams- a 91/30 for $70, and a $40 M44 a few years ago. Both were way overpriced in my opinion.

[jefnvk]

Ah, I get where you are getting at. Overpriced for what you got.

I was gonna get a M44 when they had them for $49 after Thanksgiving. They wanted to sell it to me sight unseen, because they were too busy to let me dig through their stock. Didn't do it, because of what you describe.

[GD]

I haven't gotten a single inaccurate Finnish Mosin yet (I have about 2 dozen). I also have taken these Mosins as well as a variety of Mausers and Enfields hunting and find them to be great deer rifles. As long as you know your ammo and rifle's performance and put some time into practice shooting you will find milsurps to be great hunting firearms. My friends who are into modern sporting rifles don't do any better than I do when we hunt. In fact, since I do a lot of target shooting with surplus ammo, I feel that I can outshoot most of my sporting rifle shooting friends who generally target shoot once in the weeks before hunting season. The only mosins that give me trouble are the M38 and M44 which seem to have considerable recoil especially when shooting the heavier ammo.