Lets face it,even good loads for .45acp arent any better statistically than .40S&W or good 9mm loadings and most are weaker.I own 3 .45's and the lure of the 10mm is irresistable.If i decide to dump .45,ill most likely head straight to a witness.Good 10mm loadings are much nicer than any of the above three.The only drawback to 10mm as far as i can see is common availability.The stores around me rarely stock it.Im not bashing .45acp but power is power as far as im concerned and the 45 just doesnt cut it.:scrutiny:
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March 23, 2003, 12:52 PM
I don't know where you live, here in Kali the gun is unavailable, but if you have generally liked the 1911 platform for your .45 delivery, look into the Dan Wesson Razorback for your 10mm. The ONLY significant drawback to the 10mm is the limited availability of quality launching platforms. I have Glock G29, G20 and S&W 1076 and still wish I had it in a 1911 style pistol. Glock triggers are, well, Glock triggers and the 1076 is a DA style, like the Witness. For ammo - I reload to my tastes - search the 10 Ring on GlockTalk. Several very interesting sources like Georgia Arms and I believe Texas Arms. Great caliber, good shooting.
March 23, 2003, 01:01 PM
Why would you do that? Ammo is more expensive and not as readily available. If you're just itchin' for a change, change to something more prevalant.
March 23, 2003, 01:03 PM
Hello, todays selection sir will include several old and new variations of the high pressure magnum level.45acp.
All these cartridges are capable of equaling and surpassing the 10mm.
March 23, 2003, 01:21 PM
"Lets face it,even good loads for .45acp arent any better statistically than .40S&W or good 9mm loadings"
Statistics don't kill people; people kill people.
March 23, 2003, 02:05 PM
I can see having both, but not exclusively the 10 mm. If you have 1911's, maybe just a 10mm conversion kit is all you need.
March 23, 2003, 02:37 PM
All the calibers listed by Porter Rockwell can do anything the 10mm or any pistol round can do. Their biggest downside is their biggest benefit. They are very high pressure cartridges that are pretty much interchangeable with the low pressure .45 acp round. Their brass is also close to indistinguishable, sometimes only by headstamp. Stock .45 acp brass should not be loaded up to .45 Super pressures, and hot .45 Super or .45 SMC should not be fired in a pistol set up for standard .45 acp.
It is a good thing that 35,000 psi+ nuclear loads only fit in a gun set up for 35,000 psi+ nuclear loads.
March 23, 2003, 05:29 PM
LOL! All these guys talkin up the .45 super- duper rounds.,
i know of no gunshop that carries such around here.
They are all "Experimental" to me. No LE agency uses them..as
opposed to the MIGHTY 10mm that is carried by quite a few.
I overlooked the 10mm for many a year. Boy, was i wrong!
The TEN in the CZ75 platform is the Ultimate for me.
A police proven caliber in a super reliable design..
It is easy to reload for..from Mild to Wild..whatever you
wish. According to close friends and many a veteran user
of Magnum calibers. The TEN kills as well as any 41 or .44
on deer sized game.
If only there were more guns chambered for it.
Awesome Power, Accuracy and great Ergonomics...10 X 10mm YUM YUM!
Good luck with your purchase of the 10mm Witness!
March 23, 2003, 06:14 PM
Think about this Tropical Z ole' buddy. Hi-Point doesn't make a pistol in 10mm! :D
March 23, 2003, 06:30 PM
I wouldn't dump the 45acp, it is a fine combat round.
The 10mm is wonderful in it's own right.
Get both and have fun.
As for all the 45super duper loads... talk about obscure cartridges, they are the ultimate in obscure loads. ;)
March 23, 2003, 07:48 PM
Dump both the 10mm and .45 ACP.
I say dump the 10mm ONLY because of limited choice of guns.
I'm going with .357 Sig. Lots of power, and lots of guns chambered for this round.
March 23, 2003, 08:14 PM
Delta, Tritons 450smc is an excellent overall round for weapons chambered in 45acp.
A recoil and firing pin change is all that's required to fire this ammo thru any modern 45acp chambered weapon.
March 23, 2003, 09:03 PM
They sure are. The very reason I got a G21C. :D
Just the one source, compared to 10mm though.
What can I say, I like the 41magnum also. :D
March 24, 2003, 12:37 AM
I think everybody should get into 10mm. Sorry but I've been into it since 1989 and a resurgence of interest might bring about a change in ammo maker's minds. Hmmm.......back to the days when practically everybody had a decent load for it. I'm for that.
Just don't always have the time to reload, and it's sometimes hard to find quality ammunition.
March 24, 2003, 06:05 AM
10mm is definitely a great round and has accuracy potential. Everyone is saying how great the 45 Super, .460 Rowland, etc. are, but the 10mm enjoys a better ballistic coeffiecient, which means flatter trajectories in the 10. In standard length 1911 magazines, the 10 enjoys the advantage of one extra round. Due to its length being equal to 45 ACP, but smaller in diameter, it tends to feed well in the 1911. In fact, mine feeds so well that I can load up all 3 Colt magazines with empties and cycle them through my Delta Elite! I wish there were some 10 round magazines available, Metalform is supposedly designing them and they are supposed to be only about 1/2 longer than standard magazines.
March 24, 2003, 06:29 AM
IMNSHO the 10mm is a decent all-around I-only-got-one-gun cartridge, about on par with the 357, except slightly more potent on deer. Maybe.
About the same as a defense round when loaded to successful 40 S&W levels.
Just a hobby cartridge.
Limited platforms, limited commercial ammo (Pro Load, Cor-Bon, Georgia Arms), limited performance compromise.
Unless you just gotta have a 357 auto..........
Mqaybe I'll return
with a Witness.
Apple on head :evil:
March 24, 2003, 09:50 AM
What options are there for a 10mm conversion unit for the 1911 platform? And what magazines are used?
March 24, 2003, 10:37 PM
9mm and .357sig=light & fast
.45= SLOW and heavy
10mm- HEAVY AND FAST!
March 24, 2003, 10:58 PM
9mm and .357sig=light & fast
Yes, I would agree, but if I may respectfully make a slight correction -
9mm = light and fast
.357 Sig = light and warp factor 9 Scotty!
March 24, 2003, 11:07 PM
Some reason why calibers are mutually exclusive?
Will you turn into a pumpkin if you have both 10mm and .45?
I see this is an opportunity to broaden your horizons.
I like beer, but see no reason to give it up because I also like wine.
March 24, 2003, 11:53 PM
I was hoping you would get some other reply for both of us, but here is my take on it. People get .40 S&W Kimbers or ?, respring them and either get the chamber reamed or add a custom Barsto or other aftermarket barrel. Mags are Wilson? or someone's originally intended for the Delta Elites. The DW Razorback doesn't use the MIM parts, using real tool steel for the real wear point parts. At $800 or so it would be a nice quality start at the same price as the base gun if you built it up yourself. And tool steel parts. Can anyone flesh this out a bit?
March 24, 2003, 11:58 PM
357Sig is still slower than 10mm. :neener:
155@1400, 135@1500 :D
45acp 185@1150. The 40sw can't touch that.
March 25, 2003, 12:46 AM
Lets face it,even good loads for .45acp arent any better statistically than .40S&W or good 9mm loadings and most are weaker.
Now I've never been one to bad mouth the 10mm, but since were talking statistics... what 10mm round exceeds a 96% on shot stop? 45ACP, 9mm and 40S&W all have at least one round at this rating, not that I give much credence to the M&S percentages.
I like the 10mm and would love to have a Delta Elite Gold Cup or even a Glock 20 or 29, but talking statistics isn't the 10mm's strong suit.
March 25, 2003, 01:19 AM
How 'bout .45 Glock? :D
March 25, 2003, 04:19 AM
Is it just me or do fans of the .357 SIG and 10mm seem to act as though they have the be all end all of defensive handguns these days? That the stopping power (or "one shot stop" whatever that means) gap between these rounds and the .45, .40, and 9mm is wide enough worth endless discussion.
What happened to the common wisdom that handguns from the lowly .22 lr up to .44 Magnum are generally poor stoppers? Did I miss something or are these the "magic bullets" we were waiting for? From all the ballistic mumbo jumbo they throw at us you'd think they squeezed the power of a shotgun or rifle into a handgun. I'm not trying to pick a fight. The 10mm and .357 SIG rounds are great in their own ways and I've had my eye on a SIG P229 .357 SIG or Glock 20 for my future. But I just don't want any illusions about them. This kind of overconfidence in what a handgun round can do can only be bad.
It is mostly the shooter not the gun.
So for all of you new to handguns. Choose you defensive handgun wisely. Pick a handgun you can effective with. Pick a handgun thats reliable and that you are reliable with. If its a 9mm or .38 Spl. revolver. Go with it. You are as well armed with a handgun as you can be. If you need more, get to that shotgun or rifle.:barf:
March 25, 2003, 05:20 AM
Is it just me or do fans of the .357 SIG and 10mm seem to act as though they have the be all end all of defensive handguns these days?
Yes, it does. In my not so humble opinion, whether you have a 9mm, 40S&W, 357 SIG, 357 Magnum, 10mm or 45ACP, if you have good ammo and you hit the guy in a vital area, he's going to slow down. A lot! If you have any of these and poor ammo and you're shooting at him through a 1972 Monte Carlo, he's generally going to be fairly safe though I'm sure he'd rather be somewhere else.
There's no secret, there's no special handshake that allows any of these rounds to be more terminally effective that the others, assuming quality ammo. Just as a gun feeling, I would think a 10mm would be as effective, no more so, no less so than a 40S&W when loaded with 155 Gr Gold Dots. Same thing with 9mm vs 357 SIG, with 115 or 124/125 Gr Gold Dots.
My 1/12.5 of a quarter.
March 25, 2003, 10:08 AM
Thanks for the info. I'm also hoping that someone will flesh out the info--or we can just start a separate thread.
BTW, I noticed that Kimber is moving toward offering many of their pistols in only 45 ACP, not as many 40s as they used to have.
I'm intrigued by the idea of the conversion kit--why buy another gun if you can just switch over at will? Spend the saved money on ammo and reloading supplies.
March 25, 2003, 10:40 AM
The switch can be made between .357 Sig, .40 and 10mm because the case head & extractor groove dims are common. Same with the .45 acp and I think .400 Corbon. You get into problems when you get out of your group. Slide mass and spring rate are somewhat tuned for power level of cartride. It is a tribute once again to J.M. Browning that his 1911 design can successfully handle .45 acp at around 18,000 psi or .45 Super at operating pressures in excess of 35,000 psi with little more than a change in recoil and firing pin springs.
March 25, 2003, 11:06 AM
Benefits of .45:
1. wide range of ammunition for training and defense
2. ammunition relatively inexpensive
3. ammunition easy to find
4. ample power at easily controlled levels
5. large number of models available
6. cool factor
7. if going for 1911, enormous base of information, gunsmithing skills and accessories
1. reaching 10mm energy levels requires 10mm recoil levels
2. tragectory isn't as flat as 10mm
Benefits of 10mm:
1. flat tragectory
2. wider range of power levels (light .40 to near magnum 10mm full loads)
3. cool factor
1. fewer models available, used or new
2. fewer people (including smiths) know how to get a 10mm up and running for the long haul, at least in the 1911 format.
3. many models were upgraded .45s, with resulting problems
4. ammunition not as available or as inexpensive (although 'net shopping will mitigate this to a large extent)
I've got them both, but I usually stick with the .45.
March 25, 2003, 11:23 AM
Marshall, Sanow, etc have been debunked thoroughly as was discussed at length at TFL.
The numbers created by these guys are as bogus as Sadaams reports of Iraqi victories. :D
If you buy their stats, when you take a 40sw load and add 200fps to it, making it a 10mm load, you lose effectiveness. :scrutiny:
If you do the same to a 9mm load, making it a 357Sig load, you gain effectiveness. :scrutiny:
I am a fan of big bullets that go fast, in handguns.
I don't believe any of the one shot stop fantasy books that have been published, even when their garbage science agrees with my personal ammo choice.
Who knows, maybe we are all wrong. :D
March 25, 2003, 11:49 AM
Personally, I'm sticking to the.45ACP. If I ever have to fire on an intruder with the .45ACP and he doesn't go down after I empty all 8 rounds into him, then I'll switch to a bigger+faster caliber.
March 25, 2003, 05:47 PM
Lets face it,even good loads for .45acp arent any better statistically than .40S&W or good 9mm loadings and most are weaker.I own 3 .45's and the lure of the 10mm is irresistable.Good 10mm loadings are much nicer than any of the above three.
I'm not being negative about 10MM. I really like the caliber and would like to have one. However, nothing you buy over the counter will live up to the reputation of the original "hot" 180gr Norma loads. The off the shelf stuff is the loaded down "lite" version. Corbon might be the exception. If you reload you could roll your own stuff and be pretty good.
The point is there are lots of good reasons to get a 10MM, don't let the one above be the only one, or it's probably not worth the cost.
March 25, 2003, 06:32 PM
Not really forcing the issue, but...
But the Hi-point still doesn't come in 10mm... :neener: :evil:
March 25, 2003, 07:14 PM
I reload so it isn't even an issue. My understanding is that there are several - I think Texas Arms and maybe Corbon just to get starterd - that load up original spec ammo. Stuff at 37,000 psi+. If that isn't enough, contact WESHOOT2 on this board and he can load to your weapon's safe max.
March 25, 2003, 07:29 PM
Thanks for the info Cal,
I don't have a 10MM currently, but like the original poster it does seem to be calling my name. I am a newly converted 1911 nut, and I won't be complete until I get a DW Razorback, or a Delta Elite.
March 25, 2003, 08:00 PM
Loading the 10mm Auto at or near "original theory" levels ...
Texas Ammo; CorBon; Georgia Arms; Proload.
Note: the initial 10mm bullets loaded by Norma were a 200gn FMJ and a 170gn HP, and the latter just wasn't that good of a HP, tending to drill thru like a FMJ rather than expand. Today's bullet quality and range of available bullet-weights in 10mm/.40cal is light years ahead of where we were in 1983-84. Some discussion of this is here:
Availability of 10mm ammunition and competitive pricing, thanks to the internet and to enterprising outfits like Georgia Arms and ProLoad, is much, much better than it ever was. Without a real and steady demand for 10mm ammo, these smaller companies would have absolutely no economic incentive to spend money on components to make it. Why throw good money after a "dead" cartridge? Answer: it ain't "dead."
10mm vs. .40Swishy-Walker, when both are loaded w/ 155gn Gold Dot HPs?
Don't even get me started. :rolleyes:
Georgia Arms 10mm/155gn GDHP @ 1375fps/651fpe
Speer 40S&W/155gn GDHP @ 1190fps/484fpe
It doesn't really get any better even when you go "tactical" with a .40 load, as in:
Federal Tactical HP ammo:
.40S&W/155gn HP @ 1140fps/445fpe.
When the issue of barrier penetration arises, as in many LE scenarios where wood, auto glass and various thicknesses of metal are encountered, the 10mm has the decisive advantage over all challengers, specifically including the .40, 9mm and .45acp. (Possibly the .357 Sig competes here, but it's early and the jury's still out). In fact, both the 9mm and the .45acp succumbed to the 10mm in the FBI's testing for penetration and accuracy. See Hall's report here:
Still, at the end of the day, I wouldn't "dump" the .45 for the 10mm. Keep both. I have. It's just that my stock .45 SA 1911A1 doesn't see nearly as much activity as any of my 10mms. :D
Hope this helps. :)
March 25, 2003, 08:30 PM
Regarding Marshall & Sanow,....
... I'm not a fan or a critic (just an innocent bystander :D ).
But in their 2001 tome, "Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of The Latest Handgun Ammunition," the 10mm's "terminal performance" was rated as "superior," which was the highest rating given among "serious handgun calibers" and equalled only by the .400CorBon. In Chapter 32, written by John Farnam, we find:
"Superior terminal performance from the 10mm Auto is ONLY realized in its full power, full-performance loadings, which are, unfortunately, difficult to find." (Emphasis in original; See p.323, under Table 32-1, "Comparison of Serious Handgun Calibers.")
Now, I'm quite sure M&S didn't mean only "heavy & fast," but that whatever 10mm bullet-weight is chosen (from 135gr to 200gr), it's most effective when loaded to "full power" for that bullet design.
Unfortunately, their book contains no reference to the excellent "full power, full-performance" 10mm ammo currently being offered by Texas Ammunition Company. TA offers 4 10mm loads using excellent HP bullets - Noslers, Sierras (though TA may have switched to GDHPs for the 165gr load), and Hornadys. This is high quality, high performance 10mm.
You can get bulk 10mm practice ammo for the same price - or less - than equivalent .45 ACP. Georgia Arms practice ammo runs at $160/1,000 or $180/1,000.
So unless you are afraid of that radical invention, the mail, there should be no more whining about the prohibitively high cost of 10mm practice ammo. And if you want it cheaper, reload.
March 25, 2003, 09:15 PM
I'm with Agtman, keep both calibers.
I use my Beretta 8045 Cougar occaisionally, but my 10mm's get a lot more use. The Georgia Arms practice ammo is very reliable. Used it in this weekend's IDPA match(don't ask, I need more trigger time on the G20!) and it never failed and was more than adequate in accuracy.
McNett's right, Heavy & Fast is it, but dont forget Light & Scream'in(135gr loaded to max) and Middle-weight & Flash'in(155-165gr loaded to max). Anyway you want to roll-your-own with the 10mm, it can out-perform about any other "factory" cased semi-auto round with a wider variety of bullet weights.
Try it, you'll like it!
March 26, 2003, 04:51 AM
Heck I dont even own a .45 or a 10mm so I cant say much here. At least not yet.;)
Remote tour completion present to myself is gonna be a Kimber.
March 26, 2003, 11:48 AM
I want a 10mm too, now that I've gotten over my thing about trying to standardize my calibers.
Hmmm...G20 or Witness? The G20 doesn't fit my hand well, but the Witness comes from a company that hates people.
The Witness is very similar to my CZ-97, but the Glock has more things available for it, such as a holster, accessories, etc.
March 26, 2003, 07:27 PM
If you buy a Witness get a 22lb. Wolf recoil spring. The factory springs aren't stigff enough. All around fine pistol with great feel and pointabillity.
March 26, 2003, 11:30 PM
Choices or options available are:
Get the Tanfoglio(never call it an EAA) Witness and hope you don't get one that requires any type of serious attention from EAA
Get the Glock G20 and send it to Robar for the grip reduction treatment.
Personally, I've got a Witness 10mm Compact and a G20. The experience of having dealt with EAA is, well I won't use that type of language here. Love the design though. A true shame about who the USA importer/servicing agent is.
The G20 eats anything I've fed it and is capable of above average accuracy. The only improvements may be in the barrel and that's only if you intend to reload and push the velocities. Size for me wasn't an issue, as my grip/hand size is large(as in palming a basketball).
Of course, you could look around for a 10xx series S&W. Those are very nice and can handle anything the 10mm is capable of delivering. Check the auction boards, as a decent one isn't usually too difficult to find.
March 29, 2003, 10:21 AM
Like every other handgun cartridge, the 10mm is both over- and under-rated.
But it ain't magic.
I prefer a 357 Mag as a 'one-gun' choice, and there are plenty of more 'serious' choices for field guns.
That said, I like the cartridge itself; fun to make.
But I hated my M20, no matter how much I (kept) spending. :cuss:
Isn't it nice that we live in a free country, where we can choose exactly what we want?
I like, and listen to, M&S.
March 29, 2003, 12:54 PM
I just wish Hi-Point would make one.:scrutiny:
March 29, 2003, 01:16 PM
March 29, 2003, 04:50 PM
.45ACP and 10mm are both great cartridges. I`ve had several of both and will have more of both in the future. :) That said I do have a special affection for the 10mm,it`s so darn versitile and it has a certain authoritative feel and sound when you shoot (with full power loads) it that a .45 ACP (even +Ps) doesn`t. The myths persist about ammo availability and cost. :rolleyes: Full power (and not quite "full" but much more so than the hottest .40) 10mm ammo is made by such obscure companies as Winchester, Federal,CCI and Hornady to say nothing of Corbon,Triton,Georgia Arms and ProLoad. Most of the gunshops in my area carry at least some 10mm ammo and practice stuff costs exactly the same as .45 ACP. The super duper .45 variants are cool but I don`t believe I`ve EVER seen a box of any of them for sale at a gunshop. I`m under no illusions that 10mm is an ultimate anything but if you want a CCW sized auto that packs better than .357 Mag. power with a bigger bullet it`s darn hard to beat! Marcus
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