Navy Speedster Doubles Up On Cutting-Edge Technology


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280PLUS
August 3, 2005, 02:49 PM
San Diego Union-Tribune
August 2, 2005

By Greg Magnus , Staff Writer
The Navy celebrated the arrival of a ship yesterday that is so technologically advanced it has twin cutting edges.
The twin-hulled, catamaran-styled FSF-1 Sea Fighter was touted as a "glimpse of the future" by Vice Adm. Terrance Etnyre during a ceremony at the Broadway Pier to welcome the ship to San Diego.

The lightweight, high-speed ship is a prototype built by San Diego-based Titan Corp. It's about the size of a frigate, but needs only a fraction of the frigate's crew. The Sea Fighter is capable of traveling at more than 50 knots, or nearly 58 mph.

"If we could get her on Interstate 5, we almost might get a speeding ticket," said Gene Ray, president and CEO of Titan.

Etnyre congratulated Lt. Cmdr. Brandon Bryan, the ship's commanding officer.
"There's nothing more exciting than having command of a naval ship," Etnyre said. "After running around the bay at 50 knots, I'm ready to take your place."

The Sea Fighter, built in 20 months at a cost of $80 million, is a candidate for the Deepwater and Littoral Combat Ship programs, efforts to develop a smaller and faster warship for use in coastal waters.

"This is transformation," said Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-El Cajon. "This ship is 100 times more powerful than a battleship when loaded with cruise missiles, with one one-hundredth of the crew members. . . . This is the wave of the future."

The Sea Fighter and its crew of 26 are scheduled to spend the next two years conducting trial operations in San Diego before being deployed to Hawaii for other experiments. The crew is a mix of Navy and Coast Guard personnel because the Coast Guard also has an interest in developing the ship.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27292

50 KNOTS! Now the captain CAN go water skiing... :p

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WT
August 3, 2005, 02:55 PM
A crew of 26? I'd like to see how they handle damage control after a USS COLE type of incident.

280PLUS
August 3, 2005, 03:00 PM
I'm noticing now commanded by a Lt. Commander. Is this the return of the "Mod Squad"?

MillCreek
August 3, 2005, 03:06 PM
I have to correct the press release. The FSF-1 was actually built, as in constructed, by Nichols Brothers Shipbuilding on Whidbey Island, in my very own backyard, so to speak. Titan was the main integrating contractor, but Nichols cut and welded the steel and built the ship in Freeland. I drove by it many times in the yard while it was being built. The initial sea trials took place on Puget Sound, and it was moored at Naval Station Everett for a bit. I have to say that I saw news clips of it cranked up at speed out in the Sound, and it looked pretty darn impressive.

publius
August 3, 2005, 03:08 PM
I can see the beauty in almost any boat, but that is without question the UGLIEST thing I've ever seen afloat! And I'm a multihull fan!

scout26
August 3, 2005, 03:17 PM
It looks like a flippin' car ferry, where are the evil looking things sticking out that say "Don't mess with me" ?????

GunnySkox
August 3, 2005, 03:48 PM
They keep all the DMWM's down inside the deck, and when you mess with it, they come shootin' out, like a stealth porcupine, or somesuch.

:D

~Slam_Fire

Waitone
August 3, 2005, 04:11 PM
Yea, I wonder about damage control. It is clear congress set the military on a course to use technology to reduce manpower requirement. Great in theory, sucks in practice. The military, during war in particular, experiences times when things don't go according to plan and ugly things happen. To the best of my understanding damage control is a labor intensive activity.

So if you need a crew of 150 to deal with reasonable damage control needs, how do you do it with 75?

Any squids out there who will comment?

Souris
August 3, 2005, 06:55 PM
Man is that UGLY! Not near as pretty as the Perry class in the background!

Not knowing anything about DC on the new ship I have to assume that they have "integrated" that also so that it can be handled by the Computers!
IMHO
Bad Idea. Somebody has to cut and brace shoring, plug holes, setup eductors and pumps, fight the fires etc.
On a Perry class you have approx 190 crew and Officers. At GQ ~50% of those are at damage control stations ready to respond to damage.

Apparently the lessons learned from USS Stark and USS Samual B. Roberts (FFG-58, No Higher honor , The "Sammy B" ) have become to expensive to remember.

Good point for her 2 hulls = twice as many water tight compartments
I wonder if it will still float with one hull flooded?
Bad 2 Hulls= twice as much water line.

KriegHund
August 3, 2005, 06:57 PM
I dont give a crap what it looks like, can it launch missiles?

Besides, it cost 80$ million, thats cheap compared to alot of other more common use equipment.

Wiley
August 3, 2005, 08:08 PM
My first thought was like KriegHund's. Who cares about DC, it's inexspensive enough, let it sink! A reincarnation of the LST or Liberty. :)

Pward
August 3, 2005, 08:14 PM
A New Design for a New Mission
The Sea Fighter is an aluminum catamaran designed to operate effectively in littoral, or coastal, waters. It can maneuver in as little as 11 feet (3.35 m) of water. The hull number FSF-1 stands for "fast sea frame" and is the first U.S. Naval vessel to have a catamaran design. The experimental vessel will be used to test the hydrodynamic performance, structural performance, structural behavior, mission flexibility and propulsion-system efficiency of high-speed vessels.
Photo courtesy U.S. NavyA multi-purpose stern ramp will allow Sea Fighter to launch and recover manned and unmanned surface and sub-surface vehicles up to the size of a Rigid-Hull Inflatable Boat.
The ship's design is flexible to meet the needs of multiple missions. More than 12 20-foot mission modules can be housed in the ship's mission bay, which allows the vessel to be quickly reconfigured to support a variety of potential tasks including battle force protection, mine countermeasures, anti-submarine warfare, amphibious assault support and humanitarian support.
A multi-purpose stern ramp allows the ship to launch and recover manned and unmanned surface and sub-surface vehicles up to the size of an 11-meter Rigid Hull Inflatable Boat (RHIB). From its flight deck, the Sea Fighter can operate while supporting two H-60 helicopters or vertical takeoff and landing tactical unmanned aerial vehicles (VTUAV) at a time.
To reduce vibration and noise, many of the ship's internal surfaces are covered with a coating of QuietShip, a viscoelastic polymer that can be applied to aluminum, steel and composite-hull vessels. The coating offers naval ship builders a way to reduce noise by up to 70 percent, according to developer Quiet Solution. On the Sea Fighter, QuietShip reduces noise by 15 decibels.
A New Design for a New Mission
The Sea Fighter is an aluminum catamaran designed to operate effectively in littoral, or coastal, waters. It can maneuver in as little as 11 feet (3.35 m) of water. The hull number FSF-1 stands for "fast sea frame" and is the first U.S. Naval vessel to have a catamaran design. The experimental vessel will be used to test the hydrodynamic performance, structural performance, structural behavior, mission flexibility and propulsion-system efficiency of high-speed vessels.
The ship's design is flexible to meet the needs of multiple missions. More than 12 20-foot mission modules can be housed in the ship's mission bay, which allows the vessel to be quickly reconfigured to support a variety of potential tasks including battle force protection, mine countermeasures, anti-submarine warfare, amphibious assault support and humanitarian support.
A multi-purpose stern ramp allows the ship to launch and recover manned and unmanned surface and sub-surface vehicles up to the size of an 11-meter Rigid Hull Inflatable Boat (RHIB). From its flight deck, the Sea Fighter can operate while supporting two H-60 helicopters or vertical takeoff and landing tactical unmanned aerial vehicles (VTUAV) at a time.
Photo courtesy U.S. NavyFrom its flight deck, the Sea Fighter will be able to support 24-hour-a-day operations for up to two H-60 helicopters or VTUAVs.
To reduce vibration and noise, many of the ship's internal surfaces are covered with a coating of QuietShip, a viscoelastic polymer that can be applied to aluminum, steel and composite-hull vessels. The coating offers naval ship builders a way to reduce noise by up to 70 percent, according to developer Quiet Solution. On the Sea Fighter, QuietShip reduces noise by 15 decibels.
he Sports Car of the Seas
Compared to larger, conventional warships, the Sea Fighter is faster and more agile. Some have compared its performance to that of sports car. The Sea Fighter can reach a top speed of 50 knots (57.5 mph, 92.6 kph) with a full payload and is designed to reach speeds of 40 knots (46 mph, 74 km/hr) in rough seas with waves up to 7 feet (2.13 meters).
The Sea Fighter has four Rolls Royce Kamewa 125 SII waterjets, which deliver a combined 50.4 megawatts of power and offer great maneuverability. The independent waterjets make sideways movement possible, simplifying operations and berthing.
Photo courtesy U.S. NavyWaterjet tunnel under construction
Photo courtesy U.S. NavyHousing for two of the four waterjets under construction
The waterjets are powered by two GE LM2500 gas turbine engines and two MTU 16-valve propulsion diesel engines.
FSF-1 Sea Fighter: Facts and Figures· Length: 262 feet (79.86 meters) · Width: 72 feet (22 meters) · Weight: 950 tons · Engines: 2 GE LM2500 gas turbine engines; 2 MTU 16V 595 TE90 propulsion diesel engines; 4 Rolls-Royce Kamewa 125SII waterjets · Operating crew: 26 · Top speed: 50 knots (57.5 mph, 92.6 kph) · Cost of experimental ship: $80 million
The Crew
Changes to the crew are nearly as revolutionary as the ship's design. The small Sea Fighter requires a crew of just 26 (16 Navy sailors and 10 Coast Guardsmen). The crew is made up of five officers and 21 enlisted personnel. With such a small crew, each member must be very knowledgeable of the ship and balance multiple duties.
Photo courtesy U.S. NavyThe Sea Fighter is a small ship that offers great mission flexibility.
"The thing that's really unique about this crew is that since there's only 26 of us, the engineers can't concentrate just on engineering and the navigators can't just concentrate on navigation," said Navy Lt. Cmdr. Brandon Bryan. "Everyone has to know everyone else's business. So my engineers know how to drive the ship, my guys who drive the ship know how to go down and start the diesel."
The mix of Navy and Coast Guard crew will also provide a cross-section of expertise that can be used for various missions.
"I think the Navy brings their vast experience of operating in a Department of Defense environment," said Coast Guard Chief Operations Specialist John Leary. "And the Coast Guard will bring its unique international boarding authority that we have for international activities. Plus, we have more experience manning ships with smaller crews."
Inside the ship, the crew sleeps in three-man staterooms, a major difference from the large communal compartments on most naval ships. The ship can also be configured to accommodate a crew of men and women.
While the Sea Fighter is a test vehicle, elements of it will be used in other future Navy and Coast Guard ships, including the larger Littoral Combat Ship and the Coast Guard's Deepwater concept.
For more information on the Sea Fighter and related topics, check out the links on the next page.





:what:

Marshall
August 3, 2005, 09:01 PM
It's just a larger version of the Deck Boat. I like crew on the smaller one though. :p

http://www.3341000.com/images/20deck.jpg

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27292



BTW, wanna see the first luxury twin engine Deck Boat that can run 80MPH with 8-10 people aboard.........Luxury Cat (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://eticketboats.com/images/luxury_cat_boat.jpg&imgrefurl=http://eticketboats.com/luxury_cat.html&h=305&w=450&sz=29&tbnid=eWlZP1Gj0pMJ:&tbnh=84&tbnw=124&hl=en&start=12&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddeck%2Bboat%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN)

280PLUS
August 3, 2005, 09:05 PM
my guys who drive the ship know how to go down and start the diesel."

NOW their scaring me. :what:

But maybe it means those :cuss: signalmen won't have gangway liberty anymore. :eek: :D

As far as DC, I did a little DC, (ok, I did a LOT of DC) I'd have to see the ships plans (blueprints) before I could make any kind of call on that. With double hulls however they may be counting on one hull keeping it afloat in the event the other was damaged. Plus there's the old trick of pulling a tarp over the outside of the ship to control any water entering through a breach in the hull. It works. Then there's compartmentalization and watertight doors. I wonder if the doors would close automatically in an emergency? I think the ugliness comes from the anti Radar "stealth" design. Those stealth bombers are pretty ugly too if you ask me. :p

Old NFO
August 3, 2005, 09:48 PM
The Sea Fighter is an aluminum catamaran designed to operate effectively in littoral, or coastal, waters. It can maneuver in as little as 11 feet (3.35 m) of water. The hull number FSF-1 stands for "fast sea frame" and is the first U.S. Naval vessel to have a catamaran design. The experimental vessel will be used to test the hydrodynamic performance, structural performance, structural behavior, mission flexibility and propulsion-system efficiency of high-speed vessels.

Folks, Pward had it right... This is an EXPERIMENTAL vessel to allow us to do multiple types of testing on a variety of systems and "other" things. Sea Fox is NOT the new Navy ship design. It follows TSV-1 and HSV-2 and is the first US built high speed SWATH ship. It is commanded by a LCDR simply due to it's small size and is crewed by a mixed USN/USCG crew because there are also a number of USCG initatives involved with the design.

And no, it's not pretty, but it doesn't have to be, it's designed to be effective at its primary mission :D

The folks that will be riding her could care less about window views and suites... all they want is for the systems to work.

And you're right 280, there is a lot of redundancy built in, fail closed rather than open and standard X, Y and Z conditions that are a little more stringent than you saw.

MechAg94
August 3, 2005, 11:41 PM
So does it have some of the low radar signature stuff as well? I guess that is why someone said the toys are kept below deck until needed.

280PLUS
August 4, 2005, 05:07 AM
Hey NFO...

Just FYI, Dick Z (the author) got caught up in the Mod Squad fiasco, didn't do his career much good... :what:

I missed the experimental part. I was thinking it was the first of a new class too. Is there a ship's store? :D

Can you just push a button to set condition Z?

Old NFO
August 4, 2005, 05:14 AM
So does it have some of the low radar signature stuff as well? I guess that is why someone said the toys are kept below deck until needed.

Not really MechAg, it's more a function of maximizing internal spaces to support a variety of configurations and vans. Although I'm pretty sure its RCS will be less than current fleet ships; DDX and some of the other designs are pushing the low RO/RCS more in the warfighting arena.

Here's a link to DDX- http://peoships.crane.navy.mil/ddx/default.htm

Old NFO
August 4, 2005, 05:22 AM
I missed the experimental part. I was thinking it was the first of a new class too. Is there a ship's store?

Not yet 280 :D But I'm sure there will be :evil:

I haven't had a chance to see her up close, but the Master Chief got back last week and he said there was a "lot" of automation in the condition setting. She is still completing basic trials down in Diego, and starts work ups in a few months. I think mixing the CODAG with with pump jets is going to be really interesting... Remember the PHM's? :eek: Those were a real E-ticket ride ;)

280PLUS
August 4, 2005, 05:53 AM
Yea, diesels AND gas turbines that DOES sound interesting. Naturally I'm curious as to how they integrated them. Are they using steam for hotel srvices or is it all electric now?

PHM is that the Pegasus line? We worked with her once and were just WOWED by the speed. Never got a ride on her though :(

he said there was a "lot" of automation in the condition setting. Very nice. Sounds like you better be where you're supposed to be when they push the button!

:D

publius
August 4, 2005, 06:01 AM
Good point for her 2 hulls = twice as many water tight compartments
I wonder if it will still float with one hull flooded?
Bad 2 Hulls= twice as much water line.


Most small multihulls will float with one hull flooded. I have a trimaran with 6 watertight compartments, any two of which will float the boat, though not very high.

Waterline length is actually a good thing for displacement type hulls, but this is a planing hull. Even on planing hulls, multihulls often have less wetted surface, which is the real drag number. That's why they are faster.

Most ocean powerboat racing teams have at least two boats: a multihull for when it's reasonably calm, and a monohull for rough conditions. The multihull is faster, not to mention more stable, but it can't take really big waves as well.

A buddy of mine was on a Coast Guard boat when it rolled 360 degrees. Yikes! He's lucky it was not a multihull. Multihulls never, ever roll 360 degrees, but they sometimes roll 180. :uhoh:

280PLUS
August 4, 2005, 06:44 AM
Rough seas, that was another question that came to mind, :barf:

(not me though)

:D

Awww,,,You guys went and made me think of an old DC story. :rolleyes: I went through the Navy's DC school at least once and one thing they taught us was how to blank flange an out of control live pipe gusher kind of a thing. It takes 2 guys, they will both get very wet. About 10 years later I'm working at a plant that has lots of several thousand gallon tanks full of all kinds of nasty stuff. (raw nitric acid fer instance) So somehow an outside vendor had managed to break the 3" or so drain valve off of this very large waste tank and we had just the situation described above. Fortunately the tank PH was neutral and there was a flange on the drain line. When I got there a whole lot of people were standing around wringing their hands watching the poor SOB try to blank flange it himself. (An Uh Oh squad ) Now I'm pretty new there too. I could tell the guy knew what he was doing so I just jumped in there and did what needed to be done and we had it blanked off in no time. I was the only employee at that plant that knew you could do that.

Now, did I get a raise?

:scrutiny:

I'm thinking the best I ever saw was about 45* maybe a little more IIRC, it's been a while. During rough weather we would go down to DC Central (DCC) and watch the inclinometer so 47* rings a bell but don't quote me on it. I remember talk (scuttlebutt) of the gun mounts sliding off the deck. :eek: We also like to go up to the bow and watch TV. We'd bring the new guys there and watch them get sick. Seen a few old guys get sick up there too. :evil:

OK, now where were we?

:rolleyes:

Old NFO
August 4, 2005, 07:32 PM
Are they using steam for hotel srvices or is it all electric now?

I don't know 280 plus, but I'm guessing its electronic now. And ya, I was talking about Pegasus :D

And yeah, bad wx gets interesting.... we used to do over 70 degree rolls... Oh wait a minute, I wuz in an airplane, guess that don't count... :evil:

Seriously, regardless of platform, high sea state operations become a matter of sea keeping and head into the seas... and ride that bucking bronco!!! :what:

StopTheGrays
August 5, 2005, 10:06 AM
So does it just carry missles or does it actually have some guns on it?

WT
August 5, 2005, 10:55 AM
I too was thinking about how she would handle with a big wave over the bow or a 45 degree roll.

My father was in a typhoon back in 1944 where they lost 2 DD's. The carriers looked like billboards.

Dirty Bob
August 5, 2005, 12:24 PM
Not only damage control, the FFG I was on had a lot of sailors busy on a daily basis on maintenance. I'm not talking "busy work" maintenance, but rather painting, taking off rust, repairing damage from the last underway (FFG-7s had a real problem with the pitsword -- sensor for finding speed through the water -- breaking), etc. Twenty-six doesn't look like enough people for keeping the ship operational.

Good to see they went with the LM-2500s. There are lots of Navy ships already using those. Good engines, and a proven system.

Edited to add:
I got curious about the FFG-7 in the photo with the "Sea Fighter," checked the pic on the Navy website, and was shocked to find it's my old ship, the USS RENTZ (FFG-46)! Cool!

The hi-rez pic is at:
http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/photos/050801-N-7676W-546.jpg

To see more, go to http://www.navy.mil/view_photos_top.asp and type "sea fighter" in the search box. There are several good, high resolution pics.

Memories... :)

Regards,
Dirty Bob

280PLUS
August 5, 2005, 01:30 PM
Well, at least I know where to find her... :p

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27353

Dirty Bob
August 5, 2005, 01:43 PM
280PLUS

Looks like a Charles F. Adams class guided missle destroyer. If so, which one?

Is the photo on the Navy website somewhere?

Good to see there are other Navy vets in here.

Thanks,
Dirty Bob

carebear
August 5, 2005, 01:52 PM
280,

What did you do to that ship?!

Bad sailor! No shore leave! :evil:

280PLUS
August 5, 2005, 02:48 PM
What did you do to that ship?! LOL,,, one too many coats of paint I think... :eek:

Here's a link. http://www.uss-buchanan-ddg14.org/

Oh, there's sailors around here alright...

:evil:

Here's a pic of better days, Ain't she purty?

;)

misANTHrope
August 5, 2005, 03:06 PM
FYI, for great photos of just about every naval vessel from the past century, visit www.navsource.org.

This (http://www.navsource.org/archives/09/38176.htm) was the fleet tug my grandfather served on in the last year of WWII. The first photo was taken by him (John R. Clifton, EM3).

There are some really cool broadside photos in the battleship pages. :eek:

Otherguy Overby
August 5, 2005, 04:03 PM
I wonder about using aluminum for the hull.

One of the drawbacks of APCs is/was aluminum armor which could burn if hit with an incendiary round...

Did the designers ever think of this? Or, are they hoping that sinking might put the fire out?

Dirty Bob
August 5, 2005, 04:07 PM
I served with a LT who'd been the boilers officer on Berkeley (DDG-13). The Adams class were great-looking ships. The Oliver Hazard Perry class (like the one I served on) on the other hand, has been called "a shoe box on a canoe." :fire:

Regards,
Dirty Bob
LT (j.g.) in another life

Waitone
August 5, 2005, 04:12 PM
Yea, aluminum is question I had also.

IIRC the Brits had sub-optimal performance out of their aluminum hull ship during the Faulken Wars when a pair of their ships were hit with Exocet's IIRC.

Dirty Bob
August 5, 2005, 04:12 PM
Otherguy:

Aluminum on the Perry class was needed, because a steel superstructure wouldn't made the ship top-heavy. Gas turbine engineering plants are lighter than steam plants, so things needed to be lighter up top as well. I understand they've gone back to steel with the new Burke class. Probably moved some of the heavier stuff to lower decks to compensate.

Yes, it burns, by the way. I was on active duty when one of our sister ships -- the STARK -- took two missile hits, but managed to survive! The British ran into the same problem in the Falklands.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

280PLUS
August 5, 2005, 04:21 PM
The Adams class was also aluminum from the main deck up. We were made fully aware that a .50 cal round would pass right through it. My GQ station was Repair 5 and our location was the mess decks which were on the main deck surrounded by nothing but 1/2" Aluminum plate. I often wondered what good we would do if we took a hit there. We might as well have been sitting outside in lawn chairs. :rolleyes:

This is what a GBU 2000 did to the bridge area. Hmmm, not much left to fight with...

We were also aware that we and the ship were considered expendable. :eek:

uh oh, lightning GTG!!

Old NFO
August 5, 2005, 06:12 PM
So does it just carry missles or does it actually have some guns on it?

StopTheGrays, she is not "armed" per se... Once she passes her Fleet trials, she will have normal security assets aboard. Sea Fox is mainly designed to support experimental operations. And yes she is Aluminium, lighter is better as she is not designed to go in harms way (remember that quote 280Plus?).

Dirty Bob, the little incident in the Falklands was rather interesting... Mainly because the Sheffield had not reprogrammed their CIWS to change the Exocet from friendly to hostile :what: They didn't realize it until it was a hair too late :eek:

Interestingly enough, some of my cohorts that flew the Nimrods told me they were told it had been decided they were to fly ASW missions, from ENGLAND! Of course the Nimrod didn't have air-air refueling at the time, so they build/tested/installed a refueling package in two weeks!!! :scrutiny:

It was so leaky, there had to go to no smoking on the aircraft for the entire flight (16 hours plus). It took three refuelers each way and two crews to fly one mission. Since they were fully weaponed up, they figured if anything happened, there wouldn't even be enough left to make a smoking hole...

I'll echo 280Plus- there are quite a few sailors (and a few airdales) in here :evil:

280PLUS
August 5, 2005, 07:51 PM
"I'm going in harms way so give a 1911"?

(or words to that effect?)

:D

Dirty Bob
August 6, 2005, 10:33 PM
In some of the photos on the Navy site, the Sea Fighter is shown with what looks like 3 M-2 .50 machine guns. Not heavy armament, but a long way from helpless! :evil:

By the way: another benefit of steel and aluminum construction: galvanic corrosion. The whole affair can act as a battery and corrode faster than normal. We had sacrificial anodes that were easily replaced and were to corrode instead of the superstructure!

All my best,
Dirty Bob

280PLUS
August 7, 2005, 05:31 AM
yup, we had galvanic corrosion problems where the suprstructurewas riveted to the main deck. They would just cut out the bad spots and weld in new aluminum.

Old NFO
August 7, 2005, 06:56 PM
By the way: another benefit of steel and aluminum construction: galvanic corrosion. The whole affair can act as a battery and corrode faster than normal. We had sacrificial anodes that were easily replaced and were to corrode instead of the superstructure!

It's the NEW Navy Dirty Bob :evil: I didn't realize they had the M-2 pics up... Gotta check the internal web site more often...

And yeah, this thing will have more welding adding and removing equiment that by the EOL, it will probably be one big weld! :banghead: :banghead:

Kharn
August 8, 2005, 09:56 AM
The Coast Guard is interested in a ship with cruise missiles? :scrutiny:
I'd better hide my beer better while boating...

Kharn

DelayedReaction
August 8, 2005, 11:00 AM
Actually, I think the Coast Guard is more interested in a relatively large ship that can go fast. The platform is more important than the loadout.

I'm a little wary of aluminum as well. Given the size of anti-ship munitions, I don't see that armor doing much of anything in combat.

roo_ster
August 8, 2005, 04:05 PM
This is what a GBU 2000 did to the bridge area.

280: Can you help this infantryman? I'm having trouble finding the "bridge area." :what:

280PLUS
August 8, 2005, 04:32 PM
280: Can you help this infantryman? I'm having trouble finding the "bridge area."

Absolutely. But keep in mind us below deck sailors tried to avoid the bridge as much as possible, usually if we were headed for the bridge we were in trouble! :evil:

If you look at the pic I posted back there the area towards the pointy end where all the debris is that's where the bridge WAS! That's whwere all the brass hung out. If you check that other pic I posted of her "in better days" you can get an idea of what was there and what's missing.

qwhen I heard she was going to be sunk my old XO happened to be a 3 star Admiral and in charge of the whole pacific surface fleet. I emailed him and asked him very nicely to drop something really big on her for me. To this day I claim that GBU-2000 as MY BOMB!

:D

carebear
August 8, 2005, 04:59 PM
There's enough rubble up there it looks like they barged some in for effect. :uhoh:

Boats
August 8, 2005, 05:48 PM
Did someone say Adams class destroyer? Here is mine, the USS Goldsborough, DDG-20 since parted out to the Royal Australian Navy and probably sent to the shipbreakers by now.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/05012011.jpg

Expendable? Oh, yeah--it's entire mission was to bodyguard an aircraft carrier. BTW, my general quarters station was the bridge. No way did I want to ever be trapped below decks in the event of an attack. I did learn in 1987-88 that an aluminum superstructure doesn't really do squat against the 12.7mm rounds the Iranian martyrboaters sometimes got lucky with. Fortunately, like all surface action opponents of the US Navy--they did all of the dying.

The Adams class was the last of the old breed, a class of ships whose lines were dictated by the waves as much or more than they were dictated by equipment or radar reflection concerns. They were elegant and a delight to helm.

Boats
August 8, 2005, 05:55 PM
The USS Belknap set the standard for "don't hang around aluminum during a fire" after it collided at night with the carrier USS Kennedy in the Med in 1975 and caught fire.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/04012605.jpg

280PLUS
August 8, 2005, 06:18 PM
:D

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27463

280PLUS
August 8, 2005, 06:21 PM
There's enough rubble up there it looks like they barged some in for effect.

Did I mention "my bomb" did that?

:evil:

Old NFO
August 8, 2005, 06:43 PM
Actually, I think the Coast Guard is more interested in a relatively large ship that can go fast. The platform is more important than the loadout.

You are correct Delayed Reaction, and Sea Fox is unarmored- She will have minimal required for ship protection in a bit, but nothing now...

Kharn, they are looking at them for defensive purposes- Think add on to CIWS :D

280Plus- That's a LOT of payback for one little Captains Mast :evil:

280PLUS
August 8, 2005, 07:16 PM
How'd you know about that? Was it only one? I can't quite remember anymore...

:evil:

Actually the XO I speak of saved me from one, we had a loooong talk one day. We came to an agreement. He remembered me when I emailed him too... ;)

pete f
August 8, 2005, 07:26 PM
The initial response i had to the pic was that it was a reinvestigatoni of http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=11028 The Lockheed Sea Shadow. This smalll ship is now back in service being used to investigate new propulusion systems, or so they say.

The shape of ships today has to be view in the light of pretty is as pretty does. The old "classic" DD and BB shape were designed to be able to present the most efficient gun playform for the intended use. Now howver with every go fast boat having Radar that can detect a DD at many miles, the need for a boat to have stealth features is critical.

The less stuff out in the air also means the less stuff to get exposed to salt spray, wind and water damage and improves radar cross section. Some of the current testing being done is for retractable or flush fitting turrets, of course the use of box loaded missle launchers.

As for crew size, This is not to be compared to a FFG or DD but rather a look at it as a Coast Guard 170 or 210, both of which carry somewhere in the neighborhood of thirty people to forty people. this is the size of the crew that works on a ship this size. As for DC, ships this size a major hit is going to end it. smaller weapons hits. well there just is not that much critical structure there to hit. some of these basic designs have been in use for many years as highspeeds ferries. some of these have sufered collisons and some have been targets of terror attacks and they hae faired reasonably well. The natural shape of pod type cat hull is not a planning hull but rather a new form of a surface piercing hull. The spaces it encloses are very easy to compartmentlize and the web or cross beam spaces are also easy to watertight and allow it to float hull down in
extreme cases.

280PLUS
August 8, 2005, 07:42 PM
Yea but can we squeeze a 16 incher on one of those? I can see it nestling down between those hulls quite nicely...

First shot would probably sink it.

:eek:

Old NFO
August 8, 2005, 07:49 PM
Actually the XO I speak of saved me from one, we had a loooong talk one day. We came to an agreement. He remembered me when I emailed him too...

hehehe- Been there, done that... :D I had to re-enlist to get outta one :cuss:

You're right Pete! Also, the SWATH hulls are extremely stable up to about a SS4, then things get interesting :eek: There is considerably less roll, and also less pitch due to the penetrating aspect of the hull shapes.

Actually we still have one laying around 280Plus :-) Trust me, it's not EVEN being considered :rolleyes:

280PLUS
August 8, 2005, 08:31 PM
Trust me, it's not EVEN being considered

280 sad... :(


:p

pete f
August 8, 2005, 11:04 PM
re SS4 i rode a finnish ferry of a similar design accross the baltic in 02 and it was running 20 foot seas, with windspeeds in excess of 35 knots.

http://www7.stenaline.com/servlet/se.ementor.econgero.servlet.presentation.Main?data.node.id=20274&data.language.id=11&data.document.id=13854

The ferry rode amazingly smoothly at about 40 knots. The beam is 40 meters, about 130 feet, LOA is 127 meters, about 400 feet and is rated for safe passage with paying customers in SS7 for seas in excess of 8 meters, so call it 25 foot seas. There are newer versions running in the med that are listed at 50 knots. With this type of speed and the range that comes from such reduced drag, out running storms becomes much more reasonable. sitting in a weather pattern that exceeds SS8 to above, or the tropical storm to hurricane nowadays is just not necessary

Dr.Who
August 8, 2005, 11:54 PM
It looks like the stealth ship use in one of the 007 flicks with Pierce Brosnan.

Preacherman
August 9, 2005, 01:05 PM
Pete_f, I edited your post to fix the link - works now.

I think the point of these ships is that they are very effective, but also very expendable. One hit with a major warhead such as Exocet, Silkworm, or the (much larger) modern Russian missiles, would effectively destroy this ship - so why bother with large crews and hardened structure? If there are a lot of these swanning around, I guess the top brass would simply figure on losing a certain percentage. Not so nice for the crews on board... :(

I suspect their main protection will be in their Stealth features, plus some point defence, and possibly longer-range defence by adding SM2 missiles to the mix on board (probably directed by local AEGIS ships, rather than the small vessels). If they're hard to locate and hit, that's probably the best protection you could build into something that small.

mack69
August 9, 2005, 02:20 PM
It's the Hummer of the high seas!!! :what: :neener:

Old NFO
August 9, 2005, 06:52 PM
I think the point of these ships is that they are very effective, but also very expendable. One hit with a major warhead such as Exocet, Silkworm, or the (much larger) modern Russian missiles, would effectively destroy this ship - so why bother with large crews and hardened structure? If there are a lot of these swanning around, I guess the top brass would simply figure on losing a certain percentage. Not so nice for the crews on board..

Preacherman, y'all are missing the point of these ships... They are EXPERIMENTAL- They are being used to test a variety of equipment and systems, these are not anywhere close to final COMBAT designs.

Even the ones we're leasing from AUSTEL (HSV-1 and HSV-2) have only minimal upgrading, and that is really pointed to hardening decks and tween decks for helo ops and heavy (M-1A type) equipment. Western Express is currently out of Naha, and has deployed 3rd MEF a couple of times for practice and to gather data- that's 900 Marines at one time... and according to the Master, at least once off Korea, they had 900 Marines all puking at one time :what:
He said that was $%^& of a mess!!!

280PLUS
August 9, 2005, 08:25 PM
Ha, I remember once we were being towed up to Seal Beach for offload under rough conditions with about a 75% new crew. Talk about a mess... Walking down the main passage was like being in a No Mans land of barf :barf:

:p

Orthonym
August 9, 2005, 09:15 PM
Aren't they famous for being hard to turn quickly, that is, having a very large tactical diameter?

Old NFO
August 10, 2005, 04:01 PM
ren't they famous for being hard to turn quickly, that is, having a very large tactical diameter?

Orthonym, that is true on some of the very early ones, but with waterjet technology, they can turn in their own length, and tactical diameter is VERY small, even at speed due to the width of the jets from centerline. Having said that, it's NOT a pretty ride appearantly... :barf:

I watched HSV-2 come into port in Naha a couple of months ago at 3-5 kts, stop, spin in it's own length and sidestep to the pier within about 10 minutes, without a tug being there, AND it was against an outgoing tide! :what:

Gifted
August 10, 2005, 07:57 PM
This is what a GBU 2000 did to the bridge area.

280, for an airman's sake, can you give more info on a GBU 2000? I'm guessing it's an older bomb.

KriegHund
August 10, 2005, 08:08 PM
Isnt it a...ah...forget the name now...

Ya know, one of the bombs that has various little ones...

CLUSTER BOMB! thats it! ha....

Er, yeah, isnt it a cluster bomb?

Oops, a google search leads me to believe its a 2000 pnd JDAM.

Old NFO
August 10, 2005, 08:23 PM
Er, yeah, isnt it a cluster bomb?

Not quite KreigHund, it was probably a GBU-31 which was the first series Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM), which was a MK 84 2,000-pound class munition guided by an $18,000 LASER tail kit (which is a strap on mod). There are a LOT of different adds to the old iron bombs that give them some VERY interesting capabilities... :D

Add a 3 or 6 or 12 foot steel rod and they become "daisy cutters", add a 1 sec delay and a hardened nose, they become bunker busters, add the old pop out delay fins and the become "Snakes". All of these are based on the WWII designed MK 84 iron bomb :evil:

As an OBTW, CBU's consist of a primary munition (the case) and submunitions (things that pop/fly/drop out). They are also multiply configurable, and not real cheap...

280PLUS
August 10, 2005, 09:19 PM
:o

Wrong bomb!

and a GBU-24 (2400 lb laser guided) bomb.

I'm guessing Guided Bomb U? can you finish that NFO?

Or Great Big Ugly... :p

That's the best I can do, sorry I left out the other 400 lbs...

:D

Old NFO
August 10, 2005, 09:44 PM
I'm guessing Guided Bomb U? can you finish that NFO?

Actually it IS Guided Bomb Unit- No wait a minute, that can't be right... the acronym makes sense... :p

There is no such animal as a GBU-24 (no 2400 lb bomb) Mk84 was the largest until the original 15K daisy cutter.

"Probably" what you were told was that it was a 2000lb GBU, since the majority of folks don't know/have access to all the numbers and variations. Lots of times it's easier to just the weight and how it's guided or retarded... :evil:

Gifted
August 10, 2005, 09:59 PM
There is no such animal as a GBU-24 Number's right, weight isn't. 24 uses the BLU-109 warhead that is designed for bunker busting.

JDAMs are GPS guided, not laser.

Daisy cutter, last I knew, was specific to the 15,000 lb bomb dropped from Hercs and Skycranes. Got it's name from blasting instant DZs in the Vietnam jungles.

If they still put rods on bombs to make them blow above ground, it's not an AF thing anymore. Never saw mention of it in my work.

Old NFO
August 10, 2005, 10:18 PM
If they still put rods on bombs to make them blow above ground, it's not an AF thing anymore. Never saw mention of it in my work.

Gifted, there were "various" daisy cutters, they played with the sizes to try to get them to cut single helo LZ's too. IF I remember correctly the 2000lb version would blow about a 50yard LZ, which was plenty big for single ship LZ's. There were a lot of wierd little things like that done in country that weren't necessarily approved by higher command... or so I was told :D

A friend of mine flew F-4's for the Marines over there, and he said their standard loadout was mixed Snake and Nape for most of their CAS go missions. The Navy pretty much carried whatever was on the FRAG message, same with the USAF flying out of various places in Thailand.

Burt Blade
August 10, 2005, 10:39 PM
Someone asked where the ship had her "don't mess with me" items.

It is that red white and blue rectangle flapping in the breeze. Says it all.

280PLUS
August 11, 2005, 04:33 AM
I don't know, they're calling it a GBU - 2400 at the website but maybe it's an error?

On June 13, 2000 the USS Buchanan took part in the RIMPAC 2000 as a target ship at Pacific Missile Range Facility, North of the Hawaiian Island of Kauia. American, Canadian and Australian forces tried to sink her for more than 24 hours. She took Three hits from Hellfire missiles fired from SH-60 LAMPS helos; Three Harpoon Missiles fired from RAAF F-111 & US P-3 aircraft and several allied ships; and a GBU-24 (2400 lb laser guided) bomb. The USS Buffalo's MK-48 torpedo that was to have delivered the coup de grace malfunctioned. Buchanan stayed afloat all night.
On the morning of June 14, 2000 EOD Team boarded her and placed 200 pounds of C-4 in predetermined locations. Sixteen minutes and three seconds after igniting the time fuse the Buchanan gracefully in a bow down attitude slid below the surface of the Pacific Ocean.
At 21:26:30Z (11:26:30 AM HST) 14 June 2000 Davy Jones piped her aboard at her final resting place of 22:54.38N, 160:27.68W , 64 Nautical Miles from land in 2540 Fathoms of water.

:confused:

notice how she wouldn't go down on the 13th, she waited till the 14th. Spooky or what? :eek:

Gee, I'm noticing this happened five years ago now. That's pretty spooky too...

:D

c_yeager
August 11, 2005, 04:48 AM
Bad 2 Hulls= twice as much water line.

Why is this? The result is less boat in the water (less drag=speed) and a much more stable platform.

I suspect that this stability and speed is what has the coastguard interested as it would make a pretty nifty S.A.R helicopter platform in rough conditions.

goosegunner
August 11, 2005, 05:18 AM
Could not resist:

It is that red white and blue rectangle flapping in the breeze.

You mean there is a FRENCH flag on it??? :neener:

280PLUS
August 11, 2005, 06:30 AM
You mean there is a FRENCH flag on it???

OUCH!!!

:D

Gifted
August 11, 2005, 12:32 PM
a -24 I think would work on a ship. The BLU-109 warhead it uses is designed to penetrate six feet of reinforced concrete(and turned out capable of much more). While it has less explosive in it than a Mk-84, it would be a nasty thing to have fall on your ship.

It's the standard load for the F-117, the last plane I worked on. Makes sense, if you think about it.

Orthonym
September 12, 2005, 01:01 AM
Look at www.jerrypournelle.com , specifically his "Current Mail" for the last week. It seems that Dr. Jerry's son, Lt.Commander Phillip Pournelle USN, is the exec of said vessel, and has been sending his Dad emails, with pics, of what they've been up to.

Which is basically resupplying everybody with critical stuff, at high speed. I think he wrote that because they draw only 12 feet, they are the only halfway-sizable vessel able to get in and out of Pensacola, what with the obstructions and demolished nav-aids from the *previous* hurricanes.

Pournelle, Jr., writes of the tremendous damage to infrastructure- huge barges high and dry, yards inland from unbroken trees, and has some good quotes from Miss. River Pilots, too.

As some have written above, these new ships don't have very many in their complements, and Mr. Pournelle was concerned about the 40-odd folks they have just wearing themselves out with all of the physical labor.

edited for spelling and clarity

Orthonym
September 12, 2005, 01:27 AM
Here's a sample:

www.jerrypournelle.com/mail/mail378.html#Phil8

That's a very geeky ship; I hear she runs open-source software, with Mozilla browsers in lieu of "steam gauges" in some places. Officers and men eat together. (Hey the design started as a luxury ferry!)

Pournelle the younger has geek cred too, being a published SF author and also the author of a thesis at the Naval Postgraduate School which would make yer brain hurt to read it.

Oh, she does have at least one gun, on the foredeck. You can see it in some of the pictures.

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