Question re: 870P order #'s


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Nematocyst
August 5, 2005, 06:42 AM
Howdy all,

This is my first post to THR. It's sort of long, so here's a table of contents:
1) thanks for your great forum, and much useful information.
2) a question about order numbers for Remington 870P's.

1) While doing research on a new SG, i've spent many hours over the last few months reading posts by many of you, mostly on the previous TFL. (In fact, I only tonight found the newer THR; very spiffy little bit o' cyber turf you've staked out here.)

With the help of many archive searches, I've found much, much, much helpful information to help me sort out brands (Mossie, Rem, Win...), models (870, 870 Exp, 870P, 870 magnum...), pro/con of add ons (lights, side saddles, slings, sites), Dave McC's sage advise (practice, practice, practice) and most recently, one very funny post by Dionysusigma (#16) in the thread "How to carry shotshells":
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=137655&highlight=speedfeed

So to all of you, I offer my sincere thanks for helping me sort through this issue. It's been much fun reading.
_________

2) I've decided on a Remington 870P. In a few days, I'm going to order the specific one with the features that I want, but I'm finding a bit of confusion about specific order numbers in my local gun shop and on line. Word is that Remington may have renumbered some models (I don't know this to be true; only conjecture & hearsay). Therefore, I'm trying to triple check my numbers so as to increase the probability that the correct gun gets shipped.

I saw a photo of a Remington 870P that Black Talon posted in the thread "870 photo needed here please" that appears to have exactly the features I'm interested in. (Post # 2)

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=81999&highlight=porn

Specifically, I'm seeking this 870P: Speedfeed Sport Synthetic Stock & Fore-end (which seems to be what Speedfeed, Inc calls their Speedfeed II Solid Stock Set); 18" Imp. Cyl. Bead sites. Parkerized. R3 recoil pad.

The Remington LE site lists that as Order # 4403.
http://www.remingtonle.com/shotguns/870synthetic.htm

I've sent Black Talon a PM, but thought I'd just post this here as well.

Can anyone either:
A) offer confirmation of that order # for that set of features on an 870P?
B) or point to a Remington page with more current information than the one above?

Thanks for any information. And keep up the interesting discussions. :)

Regards,

NemA~

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dfariswheel
August 5, 2005, 08:35 PM
To get the straight story on this, I'd just email RemingtonLE and ASK.

They're good about answering these type questions.

Nematocyst
August 5, 2005, 09:33 PM
Thanks for your suggestion, dfariswheel. Very reasonable.

I rechecked Remington's contact page. Several phone numbers, but no email addies that I could see.

However, even better, under their News & Events page off the home page, I found an Adobe .pdf with 2005 models, order numbers etc.

The one I'm most interested in is indeed listed as 4403. I'll pursue it on Monday.

NemA~

Speedfeed Synthetic 18" Improved Cylinder Rifle Parkerized 4417
Speedfeed Synthetic 18" Improved Cylinder Rifle Parkerized 4421 (2 Shot Ext.)
Speedfeed I 20" Improved Cylinder Rifle Parkerized 4457
Speedfeed I 18" Improved Cylinder Bead Parkerized 4461
Speedfeed I 18" Improved Cylinder Rifle Parkerized 4459
Speedfeed Synthetic 20" Improved Cylinder Rifle Parkerized 4401
Speedfeed Synthetic 18" Improved Cylinder Bead Parkerized 4403
Speedfeed Synthetic 18" Improved Cylinder Bead Parkerized 4407 (2 Shot Ext.)
Speedfeed Synthetic 18" Improved Cylinder Tritium Rifle Parkerized 4419
Speedfeed Synthetic 18" Improved Cylinder Ghost Ring (Rear) Parkerized 4449
XS( Front)
Speedfeed IV-s 18" Improved Cylinder Ghost Ring (Rear) Parkerized 4971

Nematocyst
August 6, 2005, 04:51 AM
Well, here's another friday night. got nothing else to do, so i may as well write about shotguns. i've spent so much time reading archives on this forum over the past few weeks, let's see if i've learned anything. :cool:

(Again, thanks for a very interesting forum. There is truly a lot of knowledge in here.)

Thanks to the help of a couple of list members, I've identified the specific 870P that I think interested in purchasing: order # 4403.

But just before i do, i thought i'd air out my reasoning behind that decision so that others can add in their 2 cents worth, just in case i'm making an unreasonable decision.

(PS: just read Albanian's post "I can't think of a single thing to change on my 870HD". Looks like we share similar thinking. My post is a bit redundant, but maybe useful for future readers making similar choices. I benefitted much from reading many perspectives, even if some were the same.)

First, why 870P? Why not an express, or a mossie 590, or a benelli nova?

honestly, it mostly came down to the feeling. after reading lots and lots of posts on Remington, Mossberg, Benelli, Winchester, then I started visiting stores in two cities. I handled several of each. Felt them. Shouldered them. Racked them. Looked at the sights, the quality, the stocks, the workmanship. But most importantly, shouldered them. How did it feel? Was the weight good? Convincing? How's the balance?

From the first minute I picked it up, an 870P said, "take me".

I grew up with a Remington Wingmaster 16 gauge (probably a 26" or even 28" barrel, modified choke) shooting squirrels, rabbits and birds in Tennessee. That was over 30 years ago. But my memory of that 'sweet 16' stayed with me. So I confess, I was probably already a bit biased towards Remmies.

Admittedly, the first 870P that I picked up had a Speedfeed I stock (with the extra shotshell storage), with which i didn't resonate immediately but couldn't quite articulate why. It just didn't feel ... solid enough, or heavy enough.

Still, the general feeling of the 870P - the weight, size, the balance, the solidness, the craftmanship, the sound - all said, this is the one.

From that point on, which was weeks ago, it was all about which 870P. As you'll see in one of my previous posts, there are about a dozen versions: various combinations of stock, barrel length & sights. Why am I leaning towards a 4403 with 18" barrel, speedfeed solid stock set (v. speedfeed I) & bead sites?

Well, it's mostly for HD, so 18" seems the most reasonable way to go. I dreamed for a while of a 14", but I might want to shoot jack rabbits or grouse with it someday for food (like around an extended camp, or if, say, someday civilization collapses and there are no more Safeways where one can buy beef & chicken), so ... go for the "longer" barrel.

I know also, that I can pick up a longer barrel for hunting (maybe a 26" or 28" modified choke or a slug barrel for deer).

As for stock, even though I love wood, and a walnut stock appeals for weight and aesthetics, I like synthetic for durability and easy care. Plus, as a kid, I had a Remington Nylon .22 rifle, one of the first (i think) with a synthetic stock. Totally loved it. So light, easy to carry, easy to shoot, virtually indestructable. So, again, some bias in personal history.

Why not the Speedfeed I, with extra shotshell storage? In addition to just not liking the way it felt, I read more negative than positive reviews about them: 1) some shells fall out in the field or upon shooting; 2) if you leave the shells in the storage tubes, they tend to get crimped and unusable. So at this point, I'm leaning towards a solid synthetic stock with a leather butt cuff. (At this point, I don't want a side saddle either, i think; not fond of the idea of the extra bulk on the receiver since I've got relative small hands, or the unbalanced potential. Seems the later would interfere with the zen of shooting.

Why not the 870P: 4407 with the extended tube for +2 shells? Well, that extension tube can be added later. I'm following Dave McC's (and others') advice: just get the gun first, shoot a few dozen boxes through it, get the feel of it, then decide what to add. Point taken.

Plus a guy at my local gun shop (where I'll buy said SG; helpful people) made an interesting observation: his extension tube with extra shells added just enough weight to throw his aim off, especially when combined with a light. His advice: forego the extension tube, go for the light.

Now, I'm not at all convinced I'll add a light. Maybe, maybe not. I hear the pros & cons. But given that I'm a relatively tall, thin guy, and could be influenced by the weight of a front heavy SG, I'd probably go light instead of extension tube if pressed. Just thinking out loud here; no truth implied.

Finally, why bead sites instead of ghost ring or at least rifle sites?

Well, several reasons. 1) I'm not deer hunting with it, and don't plan on long (25+ m) shots. 2) I tried out the ghost rings at the store. Took a little more time to draw a "bead" with GR than with a bead. Not saying I couldn't adapt. Probably could. But for starters, I'm thinking I'll stay with what I've used before: the lowly bead. 3) Several, notably Dave McC, have noted that great shooting can be accomplished with a bead. It's all in the practice. 4) I can always add sights later (or get a smith to do it).

For starters, I'm just going to go basic, take that baby for a test drive, see what she'll do stock, then mod as needed.

I do plan to add one of the fiber optic beads, probably the green one. But for now, I'm thinking, pass on the GR.

OK, that's my thinking at this point. Feel free to chime in with advice. I know these topics have been beat to death in other threads. I've read most of them. But it's still fun to revisit the issues, right? Otherwise, why are we spending time in here?

In the end, yes, it's my choice, and I'll probably go as much with gut level as rationality (says the science type), but advice is good to stimulate a good choice. :scrutiny:

I'm going to order soon, I hope, but am waiting on confirmation of a bit of extra cash coming my way (a couple of those "the check's in the mail" kinds of things), so I've got a bit of time (though I'd rather the $ comes tomorrow, and if it does, I'm heading to the store immediately). :o

Thanks in advance for any opinions.

NemA~

dfariswheel
August 6, 2005, 03:21 PM
There's the old KISS principle.....Keep It Simple Stupid.

Simple is better.
If you ever get the chance to look at a REAL pro's combat shotgun, you usually see a more or less simple, near-box stock shotgun WITHOUT all the "Way Cool" accessories.

Just the other day on a another forum I saw one of those Hollywood Range Toys pictured.

It had the current "gotta have" AR-15 collapsing stock, the electronic dot sight, several rails, a bayonet, a magazine extension, AND the following spare ammo:
A butt cuff.
A side saddle on the receiver.
AND another side saddle attached to the fore end pump handle!!!

This adds up to 27 rounds in and on the gun. And this was a "home defense gun".

I can only assume the "home" is a armored bunker, and the "defense" is against mass attacks by Viking hoards.

This was one of those guns that you have to wear steel-toed boots with, just in case you drop the gun and it lands on your foot.
The weight would smash your toes and possibly crack a concrete floor.

tension
August 7, 2005, 12:12 PM
I bought a new 870P #4903 a couple of weeks ago. I read everything I could find about them before buying this one. I'm going to leave the gun the way it came from the factory other than having the stock shortened by 1.125 inches. The police model is definitely worth the extra money.

Fastlane
August 7, 2005, 01:41 PM
I have a 4903. I have about 2800 rounds through it. Love everything about it, except the trigger pull. They leave the factory at 7 pounds. (:

Nematocyst
August 7, 2005, 04:07 PM
Thanks for the feedback, folks. Much appreciated.

Tension & Fastlane, glad to know you are happy with your 4903's. I confess, when I look at those wood stocks & fore ends, I pine for wood (no pun intended). They're beautiful guns. Still, at the moment I'm still leaning towards the synth stock for reasons I don't even fully understand myself. But since the 4903 is virtually identical to the ones I'm considering, glad to know of your satisfaction.

Dfariswheel, I hear you. The KISS principle is a sound one. I'll confess that when I first started looking into buying an SG a few months ago, I was instantly intoxicated by all the tricked out versions I was seeing. I had fleeting thoughts about an 870 max, reading both Rem's literature & reviews on line. But took less than a minute of holding/shouldering one (or something like it with a PG stock) at the gun shop to know it wasn't my gun. Clearly a lot of people like them, but for me, it just wasn't quite right.

More so, reading many, many reviews about pros/cons of "show v. go", I've decided for me, right now, at least, it's go. While I don't begrudge anyone for buying or aftermarket developing theirs as their personal version of an "ultimate SG" <ahem; please note the quotation marks :p > - to each their own - for me, the KISS principle seems to apply.

I'll confess that after reading Dave McC's post yesterday in the parallel thread "I can't think of a single thing...", I'm again considering the +2 extension (which in my case is # 4407). His point that I can insert a plug for hunting makes sense; why not just get the factory installed mag.

I'm also looking hard at lights again, though I'm thinking that may be an add on later.

At this point, the only other things I'd consider are:
* a simple sling for field carry with QD (quick detachable) swivels. the sling will probably mostly be off since it will exist mostly in my home, er studio. (Nomads don't really have "homes".) I finally found a great illustration & description of QD swivels yesterday here: http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/Store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=8880&title=QD+SWIVELS
* rifle sights. Even though I've pretty much decided against the ghost rings - which haven't appealed to me yet - I still haven't seen an 870 with rifle sights. Something tells me that sighting could be just as fast (or nearly as) with rifle sights as with a bead, but would open up the option of using it as a deer gun for longer distances.
* butt cuff, if i can find a good leather one


But even with those mods, I'd still call it a relatively stock weapon. (Then again, maybe I'm delusional ... :o )

I'm still very open to opinions about those and other options if anyone's got any.

Thanks very much.

NemA~

dfariswheel
August 7, 2005, 04:13 PM
If the Police trigger pull bothers you, it's an easy fix.

Simply replace the Police heavy-duty trigger-sear spring with a standard Wingmaster-Express spring.

The Police gun uses the heavier spring to help reduce accidentally pulling the trigger under stress.

The spring is the coil spring running from the trigger "nose" to the sear.

To replace, remove the large split bushing at the rear of the trigger plate.
This will allow the trigger to pivot forward, taking the tension off the spring.
Simply pull the spring off the "nubs" of the trigger and sear, and slip another spring in place.
Replace the split bushing, and you're back in service with a lighter trigger pull.

I also went with a synthetic stock and Remington factory standard sights.
I find the sights make no difference in fast point shooting, and I usually use them as a "flash" sight picture, much like you'd do with a bead.

I'd go with the factory magazine extension for several reasons:
First, if you decide you want it later, they're HARD to get and expensive. Remington only sells them through LE distributors and it's tough to get one ordered.

Second, if you don't want to use it, or want to hunt, all you have to do is buy the OLD style magazine cap, a split-cup magazine spring retainer, and a standard length spring.

Simply remove the extension, insert the standard length spring, press the retainer cup-washer in place, and screw on the standard magazine cap.

The gun is now converted to the standard 4 shot magazine.

The cap, spring, and washer can be bought cheap and easy.
The extension can't.

Fastlane
August 8, 2005, 02:43 PM
dfariswheel;

Thanks for the info on the trigger pull. I will print it out for future use. :)

kraigster414
August 12, 2005, 10:47 PM
Good choice! ;)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/kraigster414/Rem%20870%20Police/rem870Policeoutdoors.jpg

Nematocyst
August 12, 2005, 10:59 PM
Kraigster414,

Nice looking gun. Very unique. I've not seen a 4 shell side saddle on the right side. How do you like that?

Which +2 extension is that? Choate? Doesn't look like the Remington factory model since it is shorter than the barrel, which I like for some inarticulable aesthetic reason.

Also, what kind of sling is that? It looks tubular. Material? Advantages of that sling?

My current 870P status: searching for a source right now. I've got two gunshops looking for order #'s 4403 & 4407 (the latter with a +2 extension).

(Actually, I took a few days off from shotguns to research handguns. Just traded my SW3914 yesterday for a Kahr K9. Love it.)

Thanks,

NemA~

kraigster414
August 12, 2005, 11:09 PM
I am LH ergo the side saddle on the right. (Mesa Tactical)

Extension is a plus 2 from Wison. Both are top of the line in my book.

Sling is a Royal Arms Bungee. Worsk well. Popular with police.

Nematocyst
August 13, 2005, 08:35 AM
From the images I've seen only (haven't seen one in real time yet), I like the Wilson extensions - both +1 & +2 - a lot. It's clear they're pretty 'beefy'. But as much as anything, my aesthetics responds much better to the Wilson than the Remington factory extension mainly because the former doesn't extend beyond the barrel.

I know, I know: when push comes to shoot, it don't matter beans.

But just from the standpoint of the beauty of the gun, of the aesthetics, the look, I just prefer the Wilson.

That's part of the reason i'm trying so hard to find a 4403: I want to start with a regular magazine, then add the Wilson +2 later when the money is better, and after some initial training with a lighter gun, to get my muscles used to the process of sighting.

Trouble is, I'm having trouble finding a 4403. I may have located a 4407 (with the Rem factory extension), but no 4403 yet. {says prayer to shotgun gods}

I may wind up taking a 4461, with the short tube & a bead like the 4403 but with Speedfeed I, then swop the stock out.

I also find it interesting that the sling loop on the Wilson tube is on the right, whereas on the Rem factory, it's on the bottom (I think). Wondering how that affects the handling of the gun...

And speaking of slings, that's a cool sling. Mikey likes it.

Found this source of them: http://www.botac.com/roarbuqusl.html

I'm trying to decide if that would carry as comfortably as a 1.5" strap. Must be though, though, if they're popular with police. Very interesting. Going to have to get one to try it out.

NemA~

kraigster414
August 13, 2005, 09:36 AM
The Wilson sling loop is on the right (pictured) because the shooter is LH. Wilson offers its extensions - plus 2 and plus 1 with the loop on the right, the left or vertical. Your choice. If you are RH, obviously you would want the loop on the left side or opt for the vertical.

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/sa_mag_extensions.asp

By the way, no one asked about the flashlight mount - the best there is IMHO.

http://www.litemounttech.com/shotguns.htm

Nematocyst
August 13, 2005, 04:41 PM
The Wilson sling loop is on the right (pictured) because the shooter is LH. Wilson offers its extensions - plus 2 and plus 1 with the loop on the right, the left or vertical. Your choice. If you are RH, obviously you would want the loop on the left side or opt for the vertical.

http://www.wilsoncombat.com/sa_mag_extensions.asphahaha...thanks for pointing that out.

you know, i'll bet i've looked at that page about a dozen times, puzzled by some errors on it (notice that their descriptions "one" v. "two" shot don't match the images; they use one shot tubes to illustrate a two shot description, etc).

As a result, i didn't parse the model number designations (LT, RT, VT), perhaps because even though the descriptions (incorrectly) address shot number, there is no mention of "right", "left" or "vertical". When you look at the images of the tubes off shotgun, they're all oriented one way: verticle.

for the experienced, that is a no brainer. for a novice like me, it's those little details that has slowed this process down by an order of magnitude (which is why this forum has been SO useful to me). If only webmasters, like Wilson's, would spent just an extra few words & double check pages (do model descriptions match model pictures? are differences clear?), life would be easier ... or at least less confusing. ;)

my only concern about the Wilson extension, and the one that makes me still consider a 4407 with factory extension, is the lack of an ostensible mag clamp on the Wilson. That is, it appears to connect to the gun only at the base, but not to the barrel as well. As has been pointed out before, a clamp is important, particularly if there are going to be extra weight hanging off the extension.

Thoughts?

By the way, no one asked about the flashlight mount - the best there is IMHO.

http://www.litemounttech.com/shotguns.htmi noticed it, but confess haven't been looking too closely at lights yet ... that'll be later for me, i think.

still, a question: it took me a minute to realize that indeed you are speaking of the mount per se, not the light itself. yes, exploring the page {now bookmarked for future reference; thanks] the mount looks very convincing. solid. along with the tacstar light, it looks convincing.

while i like the weight & price of the Tacstar better than the Sure-fire, i have some concerns about that "telephone receiver coiled cord" that attaches light to switch. seems like some tangle potential there...but of course, that's unavoidable short of a switch that sends an electronic signal, but that would be more expensive than a Sure-Fire <grins>

dgludwig
August 14, 2005, 11:36 PM
Nematocyst 870, you've sort of made clear why you have an aversion to Ghost Sights (GS), at least at this point in time, but I have a different take on the question. GS are every bit as quick on the target as a simple bead if you employ them correctly, plus they offer a reference point at the rear for much improved accuracy if increased accuracy ever becomes a factor (you never know). Better accuracy does become important if you ever decide to use slugs (a shotgun using slugs becomes a "psuedo-rifle" and, as we all know, rifles come with rear sights for a reason).

A lot of people, it seems, don't know the proper way to use GS (or any peep/micrometer sight). What you should NOT do is to attempt to carefully center the front post or bead inside the "circle" formed by the rear aperture.The secret of using any "peep" is to understand that the eye automatically and naturally centers the front sight and the ONLY thing the shooter should concern himself with is putting the front sight on the target and pulling/squeezing the trigger. A finer (smaller) rear aperture makes for more precise shooting but a shotgun firing slugs makes GS appropriate.

Apologies if this is old news to you :) ...

Nematocyst
August 15, 2005, 12:30 AM
What you should NOT do is to attempt to carefully center the front post or bead inside the "circle" formed by the rear aperture.The secret of using any "peep" is to understand that the eye automatically and naturally centers the front sight and the ONLY thing the shooter should concern himself with is putting the front sight on the target and pulling/squeezing the trigger. A finer (smaller) rear aperture makes for more precise shooting but a shotgun firing slugs makes GS appropriate. Dgludwig,

No apology needed. Your suggestions are definitely not old news. I'm still a novice at this, sorting through all the options, here to learn. Thanks much for your opinion. It makes sense.

In fact, since I expressed my impresssions of GS in an earlier post, I've had an epiphany of sorts: I came to understand nearly intuitively that my negative impressions were based on using them incorrectly. I failed to fully grok the rationale of 'ghost', as in "focus on front site, let the rear blur-out or ghost". It took reading that idea several times by several authors before it kicked in, before I got it. But when it sank in, it was like a lightning bolt.

What did it for me, whose focus is not quite as sharp as a decade ago, was to shoulder a shotgun with a different set of GS sights than the Wilsons, for which the rear sight had a substantially larger aperture. With that larger aperture rear sight, my placement of the front sight (some Tritium dot, i think) was instantaneous. I "got it".

As an adjunct to understanding GS on shotguns, I've learned a lot this week about handgun sights, also, as I traded in my older SW3914 for a spiffy new Kahr K9. (I've sung the K9's praises in other threads (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=151026&highlight=fit) .) I'm learning that the same idea applies there: after target acquisition, focus on placing the front site (which is your focus) on the target.

Yet, as i explained earlier in a post in the thread "25 yard accuracy" (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=1856164#post1856164), it's still a bit of a mystery to me, as a handgun novice, what to do with the rear sight. Understanding how to correctly use GS sights on SG's helps.

Of course, it's a bit different in handguns (with the shorter distance from front sight to rear) than shotguns, but what i'm learning about how to blur the rear sight with GS is making more sense now: it offers an easy, fast way to know what's happening with the back end of the line of sight.

This also reinforces my desire to order an 870P:4403 that does not have the Wilson GS system. I have NO doubt that for eyes with better focus, who want a tight grouping of slugs at 100 yd, the Wilson system is superior.

But for me, who just wants to stop a goblin with a knife from cutting my throat, I'm leaning towards a larger aperture. Getting an 870 wihtout the Wilson GS gives me the option of deciding which ones to install.

Again, thanks for expressing your opinion. Very helpful. ;)

NemA~

dgludwig
August 15, 2005, 02:27 AM
Not to put too fine a point on this, Nematocyst 870 (I loved the definition for your "handle"!), rear sights on handguns can be like tits on a boar hog if the target is up close and big (read man-sized) and the shooting is fast and furious. When this kind of shooting is involved, focusing on the front sight is an absolute imperative with the rear sight serving as a backseat reference point. However, if the highest degree of accuracy is a priority and you are using "open" sights (on a handgun, peep or GS type sights aren't appropriate in most cases due to the firearm being so far away from your eye(s) ), the use of the rear sight is almost as important as the front sight. As an old time "bullseye" shooter, ( I'm 62, maybe not that old!) I'm very acquainted with the drill: breath control, trigger squeeze and sight ALIGNMENT (that is, squaring the rear notch up with the front blade). Of course, most everyone seems to be going to the scope/"red-dot" now :( .

IMO, Ghost Sights are a very useful accessory on a shotgun used for self-defense or big game hunting. Most of my shotgun shooting involves bird hunting (which is why shotguns were invented!) so, because the focus in this kind of shooting is solely on the target, the use of any kind of sight is hardly needed.

I'm very interested in what you finally end up with. The rationale you have used in making your choice has been quite informative and interesting.

Nematocyst
August 15, 2005, 03:15 AM
dgludwig,

thanks for your help & kind words about the handle. (biology teachers don't get many compliments, so they're nice when they come around ;)

I had to google "tits on a boar hog" to find the meaning, even though i grew up in meomphis. :p

but yes, i get it. at close range, rear sights on a handgun are useless. put the front sight on target, roll trigger. that's all that matters.

thanks. very useful.

sincerely,

NemA~

kraigster414
August 15, 2005, 10:10 PM
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/kraigster414/Rem%20870%20Police/870Pwithoneext002.jpg

Same 870 Police as picutred in my earlier post. This time with a Wilson 1 shot extension, sans the flashlight and bungee cord. I have two barrels (call me excessive compuslive): one with XS Big Dot Tridium rilfle sights installed - the first photo - and one (this photo) with a Wilson Scattergun ghost ring and tridium front sight. I bought this barrel used and had it re-Parkerized. If anyone can tell me why half the barrel is a lighter finish than the other half, I'd be interested. It was like that before refinishing and after. Gunsmith wasn't sure. The important thing is that the inside of the barrel is in perfect condition, no rust or pitting. Still I am curious. Maybe something to do with heat treating?

http://www.gunblast.com/XS_BigDot.htm

The XS system may be the best compromise of all. Extremely easy to pickup and allows more precise placement with slugs.

Nematocyst
August 16, 2005, 06:05 AM
Light lovers: check this out:

http://www.speedfeedinc.com/?location=new%20products

Fred Fuller
August 16, 2005, 06:17 AM
Not lights, just mounts for the detachable weaponlights like the M3. I like the ring mount that slips under the mag cap on 870s.

I called the company a few years back to ask why they didn't incorporate rails for lights in their replacement fore-ends, since it would be as easy to mold them with rails as without. That's when I found out they were planning to market these mounts (there were patents in place which prevented them from making shotgun forearms with rails). Bill Davis was kind enough to send me some early samples for evaluation, and they have been on the market for some time now. They work, too, and are a lightweight and less expensive alternative to SureFire dedicated lights.

That was the time I mentioned in my PM last night, when Mrs. Davis tried to get me to buy the company... (edited to add: SpeedFeed was sold to conglomerate Armor Holdings in 2002).

lpl/nc

Nematocyst
September 27, 2005, 04:54 AM
Got my LLLLOOONNNGGG awaited IRS refund check in the mail when I checked it tonight.

Will order one 870P by Wednesday (next day off).

Yaaaaaaaahhhhhooooooooo!!!!!!! :D :D :D

kraigster414
September 27, 2005, 06:55 PM
Will that new speedfeed clamp mount also hold a 3/4 in diameter laser??

RaymondMillbrae
January 5, 2007, 11:52 AM
Nematocyst-870,

I am also in the market for a pump action shotgun, and I also have my eye on the 870P.

I am gonna wait until the 20th of January to check out the gun show, and hopefully find a good deal.

I am currently looking at the 870P...but with the low profile sights and the tricked-out new KNOXX SpecOps Recoil-Reducing Stock (http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Products/SpecOpsStock.html).

http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Products/images/SpecOps_Sheriff_topview_tou.gif

The KNOXX SpecOps stock has gotten raving reviews, and it also felt incredibly comfortable when held. One of the things that REALLY attracted me to it, was the ability to adjust the stock length. (I am not too tall, hence an adjustable stock length is a cherry atop my sundae). The adjustable stock is also really nice if you're into flack vests, as the "ordinary size" is just to cumbersome.

And if you wanna see a picture of the 870P carrying the stock, check it out on the Remington website. Click here to open the Law Enforcement Catalogue (http://www.remingtonle.com/pdf/RemingtonLE_2006.pdf) (PDF file), and scroll down to page 16. (If I did this correctly, it should take you DIRECTLY to page 16). *cross your fingers*

I believe it's called the 870P 18" XS.

Personally, because it is ONLY gonna be used for home defense, I would prefer the shortest barrel. (14")? But since California law says that 18" is the minimum...well...that's where I'ze be.

Let us know what you finally get.

In Christ: Raymond

shappy0869
January 5, 2007, 02:14 PM
I found that www.gtdist.com had excellent prices on 870P models, it is where I got mine from.

RaymondMillbrae
January 5, 2007, 04:35 PM
Don't mean to bust anyones bubble, but look around for good prices.

I have a "Big 5 Sporting Good Store" in my neighborhood, and they are selling them for around $315.00 to $350.00, depending on the accessories.

I have talked to a few buddies, and during certain times of the year they have found them for as low as 215.00. (And this is the San Francisco Bay Area - the most stupidly expensive place to live).

I am of the camp that if you can find one, stripped and for super cheap, then go for it. You can always add on accessories as you see fit.

Myself, I am looking for a solid "bare-boned" one. I will then add on the sights and stock if need be. (Look around and you can find the stocks and sights for a pretty good price on E-Bay or other places).

But if I find an 870P at the gun show with the accessories I want (see my earlier post), at a decent price, then I'll purchase it there on the spot. That's the whole fun of the gun shows - seeing all the new stuff, and then Wheelin' n Dealin'.

And in closing, you can always talk to the manager of a sporting goods store, and ask him/her to reduce the price. Remember, the prices they sell their products at are NOT set in stone. Most of the times they are the MSRP. (Manufacturers SUGGESTED Retail Price).

Some of my best deals (motorcycles, Performance Center wheelguns, 1911's, etc.) have been purchased by offering them a decent price for the product while waving HARD, COLD, CASH in their faces. :what: It's very difficult to say "No" when they are guaranteed a sale at that very moment. (Especially if you are offering them a decent price for a slow moving item).

Money talks.

But then again, don't go all "Ghetto" on them and demand the item be reduced to something ridiculous like $200.00...and then throw, "But it's the Manufacturer's SUGGESTED Retail Price" in their face.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Best wishes, and always keep an eye out for dem basement bargains.

In Christ: Raymond

Nematocyst
January 6, 2007, 02:30 AM
RM, and others,

When I first started this thread, I was still looking, exploring options, etc.

I, too, was looking at the Knoxx stocks, and some other gizmos for the 870P.

I bought a pretty plain jane 870 from Territorial Supply in Idaho.
(Highly recommended; good prices; fine folks.).

My 870P has synth stock, parkerized barrel, bead sight.

I thought I might replace the stock with a Knoxx stock,
and put a mag extension on it, but so far, haven't felt the need.
This one works just fine for me as is.

The only thing I've done to it (other than BA/UU/R) is to add a sling.
Next, I may add a 26" or 28" barrel for hunting.
(This gun's main niche is SD at the base camp.)

I'm very happy with my 870P.
IMO, there is no finer shotgun for this niche.

YMMV.

Good luck.

Nem

RaymondMillbrae
January 7, 2007, 06:16 PM
Hey Folks,

I have another question for yall.

I did some looking, and the 870P differs from the 870 Express in a couple of important ways. Below is an excerpt from the Remington website:


[B]Structurally the two receivers are identical. The only difference will be that the Police model will have a more durable finish. The magazine tubes will be slightly different. The Model 870 Express will have two indents in the magazine tube to accommodate the new style plastic magazine spring retainer. However, this prevents the Express model from accepting a magazine tube extension without alteration to the tube.

Other differences will be that the Police model includes sling swivel studs, a shorter fore-end, heavier shell latches, a heavier sear spring and a heavier magazine spring.B]


So now that I see the differences, I am assured that the 870P is definitely the one to get.

But now I am up in the air about the 870P or the MARINE MAGNUM.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/rem/rem_5012.jpg

Would ANYONE know the difference between the 870P and the MARINE MAGNUM? (Besides the obvious finish).

I am UNsure if the "innards" of the MARINE MAGNUM are the same as the 870P. (Does the MARINE MAGNUM also have the beefier springs, heavier shell latches, etc)?

I have heard that they "should" be the same, as the MARINE MAGNUM was also originally designed for PD use. But I'm not sure if that is true or not.

So if anyone should know the answer, please drop us a line (or two) on this thread.

I'll try to contact Remington on Monday to see if I can get an answer "straight from the horses mouth".

Thanks in advance.

In Christ: Raymond

RaymondMillbrae
January 9, 2007, 10:43 AM
Well folks,

here's the deal.

I called Remington about the differences between the 870P and the 870 Marine Magnum, and here's what they said: "The Marine Magnum is basically the same as the 870Express. It has NONE of the stiffer springs and beefier shell latches that the Police model has. The biggest difference is the crazy coating on ALL the parts".

So here's what I figured: I don't need the heavier sear spring (that's basically for Police who do not want to be walking around with a "hair trigger"), and I don't need the parkerized finish (cuz the finish on the Marine Magnum will blow away the parkerized finish for protection against the elements), and the magazine springs can be replaced with a beefy monster one from Wolff springs for about $5.50.

So the only thing I'm still up in the air about is whether I can swap-out the shell latches for the beefier ones on the 870P. (I'll have to call Remington again to ask them about that, as I forgot to ask them the first time).

In case yall need the Remington number, here it is: 888.736.4867 Ext 8795

So here's what I did. (Scuze me if'n I'm not supposed to post this).

I purchased the Marine Magnum from the cheapest place I could find selling it.

Then I purchased a beefy Wolff Spring (http://www.gunsprings.com/GenPurp/TubeMagsNF.html) magazine spring.

And finally I ordered the Knoxx SpecOps stock (recoil-reducing) from the cheapest place (http://www.lawmens.com/cgi-bin/lawmens/kno04x00.html) I could find it new. (Anything over $100 ships for FREE). I purchased it new as I gotta have the warranty - even though I had found a slightly used one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=010&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3APIC&viewitem=&item=200065804279&rd=1&rd=1) for about $20.00 cheaper on E-Bay. (And the guy lives 4 minutes away from me - so I could have picked it up and saved the S/H fees).

So now it's just a waiting game for all the parts to arrive and get put together.

I usually purchase all my weapons tactical matte black but for one or two exceptions. (Performance Center 627 V-Comp and my Kimber Eclipse Custom II in 10mm) But since it is primarily going to be used for home defense, I could care less if it was a shiny eye-blinding chrome. (OK, OK...I'm lying. There's NO WAY I'm gonna be totin' around a shotgun at the range that shines like spinners on a ghetto Caddie). :confused:

So that's the rest of the story.

I will post my conclusions when the parts arrive and I get to put a few pellets and slugs downrange.

This will be my first PUMP-ACTION shotgun, so I'm really looking forward to mastering it's use.

Thanks again.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: Let me eat shoe leather and correct my MIS-statement from a previous post. The models that could be found dirt-cheap were the 870Express models. The 870P models still carry a hefty price tag in the S.F. Bay Area.

dfariswheel
January 9, 2007, 03:37 PM
It's not possible to change out the shell latches unless you have a special staking tool.
The latches are staked in place, and an ordinary punch can't re-stake them.

I doubt you'd ever notice any difference between the Police latches and the standard latches Remington uses on the Wingmaster and Express so I'd recommend leaving the latches alone.

The Magnum Marine is NOT built to the same standard as the Police model.
The MM was NOT intended for use by the Police, it was built specifically for use around salt water and boats by "civilians".
The only gun Remington recommends to law enforcement are genuine Police models.

The Magnum Marine is a true Express gun which means it has the Express plastic trigger group, locking safety (possibly discontinued) and is generally a rougher, less well polished and smoothed gun.

This doesn't mean it's junk, or weak, it just means it's not built to the same high standards that the Police models are built to.

The Express, even the Magnum Marine is built to sell at a "budget" price, well below the top-of-the-line Wingmaster, and not as expensive as the heavily inspected and more carefully built and finished Police models are.

RaymondMillbrae
January 9, 2007, 07:39 PM
Wow, that's weird.

I say that because the MARINE MAGNUM is going for between $100 to $150 more than the 870P basic models.

I just shot Remington another e-mail to see if they could be a bit more specific, as I am getting conflickting responses.

One of the Remington guys I spoke to said that the MARINE MAGNUM is the same as the 870EXPRESS. But one of the Remington guys e-mailed me back and said that the MARINE MAGNUM is the same as the 870P Police model.

Whew!!!!!

So corn-fusing!!!

I figured that if the MARINE MAGNUM was the same as the 870EXPRESS, that I would just swap-out the spring and latches. Because in my minds-eye, I figured that the smoother edges would be there because of the special nickel-plating.

OK, so now it's just time to wait.

I have ordered everything but the shotgun itself. I was gonna order it today (Jan 9th), but now everything is on hold until I can get the correct information. (There's no way I'm gonna purchase a weapon without knowing EXACTLY what I am purchasing).

I've also requested info on the swapping-out of the shell latches.

Thanks again. I'll keep yall posted on their response.

In Christ: Raymond

dfariswheel
January 9, 2007, 08:19 PM
Here's what Remington Law Enforcement Division has to say about the Express and Police models:

REMINGTON ARMS COMPANY, LE DIVISION
Important differences between Remington 870 Police and 870 Express shotguns
The 870 Express has been an important part of Remington’s offering to the sporting market.
It was designed to meet a price point in the commercial market while still providing classic 870 functionality.
All of Remington’s 870’s have interchangeable parts, even if they have cosmetic differences.
It is also important to note that many manufacturers use the 870 Express platform for their Police / Combat models.
Without exception, every manufacturer who utilizes our 870 platform serves to upgrade their system to a more efficient, street worthy platform.
While the 870 Express is still an 870, the best pump shotgun on the market, there are some very important cosmetic and functional differences between it and the 870 Police.
To our customers in Law Enforcement, Military, Corrections, and Security, whose lives depend upon the unfailing performance of Remington shotguns, the Police modifications are of paramount importance. Synopses of the variances are provided below.

• 870 Police shotguns go thru a special 23 station check list – ranging from visual inspection, functional testing, test firing, and final inspection.

• All Police shotguns are assembled in a “special build area” at the plant in Ilion, NY. This section is secured and serves only to build LE and Military shotguns, with the same factory personnel working at that assignment each shift.

• All parts that enter the “special build area” are visually inspected by hand to ensure top quality and functionality.

• Due to heavy recoil in buck and slug loads, all 870 Police guns have a longer magazine spring which ensures positive feed and function.

• A heavier sear spring is used to generate a reliable, positive trigger pull between 5 and 8 lbs.

• A heavier carrier dog spring is used to ensure when the carrier elevates the shell, it will be held there until the bolt can push it into the chamber. This ensures positive feeding when using heavier payload rounds.

• Police shotguns do not have an ISS (Integrated Safety System) which is a locking mechanism on the safety of commercial shotguns. This type of locking mechanism can cause delay to an officer who needs the weapon but does not have the appropriate key. LE shotguns have the standard, proven, cross bolt safety.

• The fore-end on the Express model is longer and not compatible with many police shotgun vehicle racks.

• The Police shotguns utilize the heavy duty SPEEDFEED Stocks and Fore-ends.

• The Express model will not allow for the addition of an extension tube without physical modification to the tube and barrel, which can nullify the warranty.

• The Express model has a BEAD BLAST BLUE finish while the Police models utilize either High Luster bluing or Parkerization.

• The Express model utilizes a synthetic trigger housing while the Police models use a compressed metal housing.

• The Police shotgun barrel is locked down with a “ball detent” system in conjunction with the magazine cap vs. a lesser grade “synthetic magazine spring retainer” lock down as used on the Express system.

• The receivers used in Police guns are “vibra honed” to smooth out rough finishes and remove burrs before parkerization or bluing.

• Police shotguns use machined ejectors and extractors, as opposed to powdered metal cast which are utilized on the Express models.
===================================================

Note that the Magnum Marine IS NOT built in Remington's LE shotgun facility.
The reason the MM may cost more than the basic Police guns, is due to the more expensive plated finish which costs quite a bit to apply.

One more time: The Magnum Marine IS NOT a Police gun nor is it a Police quality gun.
It's an Express gun with Express parts and quality.

Nematocyst
January 10, 2007, 03:55 AM
If my choice was 870P, Marine magnum or express,
I'll take the 870P 1,000,000,000,000 times more often than either other one.

Regardless of literature, pictures, or written descriptions,
the feel of the 870P convinced me immediately that it was the gun for me.

I have zero regrets.

YMMV.

RaymondMillbrae
January 10, 2007, 09:51 AM
Nematocyst,

just out of curiosity, what did you pay for your 4403?

I'm pretty sure that I am gonna go with the 4407 at the moment. (7-shot with bead sights).

I had the night to think it over, and no matter how hot and "tricked-out" the Marine Magnum is, I just couldn't look away from the fact that it has a SYNTHETIC TRIGGER HOUSING and an MIM (Metal Injection Molded) ejector and extractor.

Geesh, that's a pet-peeve of mine - plastic & injection molded parts. I've spent "plenty a good shekel" to swap out anything that was plastic or MIM on every single one of my handguns!!!!!

Everything else I could have justified doing without. But getting chincy on the trigger housing, ejector and extractor?!

No way, Jose!

By the way, have you seen their NEW Marine Magnum XCS (http://www.remington.com/what's_new/2007_spring_products/)? (Xtreme Condition Shotgun). That puppy is pretty hot!

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/images/ssi/41037.jpg

It's got their new proprietary "Black TriNyte Corrosive Control System".

I'd like to see the specs on that one!!!

And if you look at the camouflaged SPS (Super Magnum Max Gobbler) on the same page...Hooooo-Weeeeeeeee! That puppy be pretty sweet as well.

Thanks again, and I'll keep yall posted.

In Christ: Raymond

Nematocyst
January 10, 2007, 05:49 PM
Nematocyst, just out of curiosity, what did you pay for your 4403?Raymond,

My gun shop's distributors didn't have the 4403, so I had to find one on my own.

As I may have mentioned earlier in this thread, I finally found mine at Territorial Supply in Idaho (http://www.territorialsupplies.com/), a family owned and run business. Fantastic bunch of folks: helpful, informative, patient, kind, fast delivery. You can actually talk to a real person on the phone, and there's no phone menus to deal with. I highly recommend them.

My total bill was $440. That included gun, shipping and FFL ($40). That turned out to be $15 more than a very similar gun that my gunshop had on their rack, but that one had a Speedfeed stock with cartridge storage in the stock. I didn't want that. I wanted a solid stock.

I haven't regretted that $440 for a second. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. (And I'm far from being a wealthy person; relatively poor, I am, but when I buy, I save my pennies and buy quality.)

I think you're thinking is good about buying the best quality you can.

Keep us posted about what you get.

Nem

RaymondMillbrae
January 10, 2007, 06:16 PM
Oh my goodness...wha hapen?!!

I called Territorial Supply (http://territorialsupplies.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=RE4403&Category_Code=), and they now want $511.15 for the 4407 model.

And then I called GTDist (http://www.gtdist.com/ProductDetail.aspx?PartNumber=RA-4407), and they wanted $489.00 for the 4407...but wouldn't ship it to California. :confused:

I asked the lady at GTDist.com WHY she wouldn't ship it to California, and she said that those were the laws. (Who's laws? It's not against the law).

Can anyone direct me to someone who sells the 4407 (870P, 7-shot with bead sights) at a decent price?

This is becoming more of a hassle than I had anticipated.

Or maybe I should say that this is becoming more of a "challenge".

Hmmm...nope. I take that back...it's definitely a hassle.

Thanks guys, and I'll await your responses.

In Christ: Raymond

Nematocyst
January 10, 2007, 06:45 PM
I called Territorial Supply, and they now want $511.15 for the 4407 modelYikes! :eek:

Does that include FFL and shipping?

Blame it on fuel prices. Glad I got mine before they went up.

RaymondMillbrae
January 10, 2007, 07:02 PM
I'm in California,

so when I purchase the shotgun I will have to pay for the shotgun, the $20.00 to get it shipped, and then another $70.00 for an FFL dealer to receive it and the 10-day background check. (To make sure you're not a felon, or suicidal, or have some type of restraining order on you, etc).

In short, I am looking for the cheapest price, as I will AUTOMATICALLY have an additional $90.00 placed atop the price tag.

That's the price of living in San Freakcisco, I tell ya!! (Actually I live two cities over from SF).

In Christ: Raymond

RaymondMillbrae
January 12, 2007, 11:46 AM
Well, just to keep you up to date...in case yall care at all.

I ended-up purchasing the 870P (4407) at Territorial Supply (http://www.territorialsupplies.com/cont.htm) for $511.15. (Thanks NEMATOCYST).

Then I gotta pay the shipping charge ($20.00), the receiving charge for the FFL holder ($45.00), and the 10-day background investigation ($25.00) - for an additional $90.00 to the price of the shotgun.

So all said and done, this shotgun will run me $601.15 out the door and into my waiting arms.

It is now Friday morning (7:40AM California time), and it should arrive within three working days.

Then upon it's arrival, it's off to the gun store to fill out all the background investigation paperwork and wait for the blasted 10-day waiting period to elapse before coming back to pick it up.

Boy...I guess this is part of the fun of purchasing a new "Big-Boy-Toy".

I am also looking at the cool Benelli Super Sport (http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/superSport.tpl)shotgun for the hunting season.

http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/images/superSportFeature.jpg

Well, Folks...thanks again.

I'll keep you abreast of the situation the moment it arrives and I put some action downrange.

In Christ: Raymond

shappy0869
January 12, 2007, 11:50 AM
Check with the transfer dealer, you may be able to go in there today and fill out the background check paperwork and get that going, before the gun comes in (so it saves you a couple of days). I was able to do that when I ordered mine (also a 4407). However, the laws may be different in your state.

RaymondMillbrae
January 12, 2007, 11:58 AM
Shappy,

I've checked with my dealer about doing just that in the past. but he disuaded me from doing so.

He said that unless it is being shipped from the actual manufacturer that could ASSURE HIM that the serial numbers will be from the very same weapon that will be shipped...he would be leary about doing so.

He mentioned that in his past experience, folks have done just that (assured him that the serial number would match the weapon)...and it DID NOT.

So to be on the safe side and save unwanted hassles, extra work, and delays...just heed to the Nestle' Quick Rabbits wisdom and remember, "Patience is a virtue". (To which I concur).

Thanks anyways, as it shows where your heart was in your suggestion.

In Christ: Raymond

RaymondMillbrae
January 21, 2007, 11:57 AM
Hey Folks,

wanna hear something terrible? (For me)!

I purchased my 870P, then I had to have it shipped here to California.

When it arrived I had to go to the gun store to sign all the paperwork. And as I walk into the store, I find that someone is selling their mint condition 870 Max for $599.00!

What?!!! :eek:

Oh my gosh...I was sooooo bummed out.

The 870 Max has everything. A Surefire light, shell holder onto the left side of the receiver, a tactical sling with shell holders, rifle sights, etc...

Man!

I just purchased my "plain-ole, plain ole" for a total of $600.00.

I just wanted to cry.

Just c-r-y!

So if anyone is interested, let me know, and I'll put you in contact with my local gun store. (No, I'm not benefitting from it at all).

OK...that's not the main reason I am writing this post. (But it sure "should" be).

I am in the process of purchasing a scope mount for my 870P. I will be placing a red dot sight on it when it arrives the following Monday - and I want a sturdy, tried and true, scope mount for it.

I figured that a 30mm red-dot scope would fit the bill nicely. It has a multiple dot size adjustment of 4, 8, 12 and 16 MOA at 100 yards.

The larger sized dots are good for rapid up-close target acquisition, and the smaller dot sizes are good for slug-use when accuracy is needed at greater distances. I have one on another weapon, and it's the "Cat's Meow" for rapid target acquitition! And the very best part...they are meant to be used with BOTH eyes open, which is it's greatest "plus". (The latter topic needs the space of a totally different thread to describe all the benefits of TWO EYE target acquisition).

Anyhoo...I am currently looking at two different scope mounts for my 870P.

The first one is the AIMTECH MOUNT (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=137969). (I've found them for as low as $25.95).

http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/highresimage?saleitemid=137969

And the other one is the B-SQUARE MOUNT (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=367653). (A little more expensive, but I've found them for around $35.00).

http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/highresimage?saleitemid=367653

It seems to me - based on my personal observation - that the B-SQUARE is more commonly carried, and demands a constantly higher price.

I know that "price" is not always the determining factor into a products quality, but the fact that more distributors carry them DOES say something to me. (Or maybe it shouldn't).

Regardless...does anyone have either of these scope mounts on their 870?

And if you do, can you comment on their quality.

And lastly, let me hear your different opinions on each, as I will make my decision after sorting between all the "wheat and chaff". (The good, the bad, and the plain ole dumb comments).

Thanks guys/gals. I appreciate the time yall took to read my post, and then to respond to my post. (As long as the response are not not gibberish and wasted thought). ;)

In Christ: Raymond

shappy0869
January 21, 2007, 12:34 PM
I have the AimTech on my 870 and use it to mount my OKO red dot. I am very happy with both and after about 50 rounds of slugs the other day, the AimTech mount didn't seem to budge and felt solid.

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/342/dsc037554my.th.jpg (http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc037554my.jpg)

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/2252/dsc037543kc.th.jpg (http://img258.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc037543kc.jpg)

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9337/dsc037521si.th.jpg (http://img241.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc037521si.jpg)

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/606/dsc037537to.th.jpg (http://img255.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc037537to.jpg)

RaymondMillbrae
January 21, 2007, 12:45 PM
Thanks, Shappy. (What a cool, unique name). Ha ha.

Upon looking at the AIMTECH, I see two distinct differences:

1) It seems that the AIMTECH mount is higher. (To enable the user to use their iron sights).

2) And it seems that the AIMTECH is also shorter in length. (The other maker states that it is the "full receiver length").

Shappy, the firing-eye view was very helpful. It helped me to see the height, and shape, of the scope mount.

Thank you!

WouLd anyone be willing to post some side-view and firing-eye view pix of a B-SQUARE scope mount for me? (And other viewer's edu-macation).

Thanks again, Shappy.

Kudos, Doode!!

In Christ: Raymond

RaymondMillbrae
January 29, 2007, 08:11 PM
Well folks, just in case yall were curious...I got my new toy.

Below are a few pictures of it all set-up.

http://xb7.xanga.com/2bdd202329733103887205/m73364993.jpg

http://x33.xanga.com/bf8d065129531103887200/m73364990.jpg

http://xe5.xanga.com/bb7d525a28232103887192/m73364985.jpg

http://x56.xanga.com/cd9d255528732103887183/m73364981.jpg

And for your information, I went with the B-SQUARE mounts and the ULTRADOT FOUR (http://www.ultradotusa.com/) red dot scope.

Why the B-SQUARE mounts?

1) One...because I liked the large see-through SQUARE sight that enabled me to see the front bead.

2) Two...because I liked the sleek look of the mount covering the whole upper portion of the receiver.

3) Three- and most importantly - it had a lot more grooves for me to adjust the scope rings to my ULTRADOT FOUR.

Below are a few pictures that show the mounts from a "firing eye" point of view.

This first picture shows the view through the red dot scope. (If you look carefully, you can faintly see the red dot in the center).

http://xd8.xanga.com/dd8d0723c8630103890700/m73367297.jpg

This second picture shows the THRU VIEW to the front bead of the barrel. (I liked the large SQUARE sight picture).

http://x5e.xanga.com/e5fd245ac8532103890693/m73367293.jpg

And in closing, I gotta give it to you, Shappy. Those were some hard pictures to take of the THRU-VIEW to the front bead.

Anyhoo...thanks again for the help. I hope these pictures of the two mounts will help some other reader to choose the right mount for their needs.

Toodle-Loo, America!!

In Christ: Raymond

RaymondMillbrae
February 3, 2007, 08:18 PM
OK,

one more thing needs to be said (pointed out) before I say "G'Bye" to this thread.

When you have the Knoxx SpecOps (recoil reducing) Stock installed - WITH THE HIGH CHEEK PIECE - you will not be able to use the "see-thru" sight at the bottom of the B-Square Mount.

What?

What I mean is this...when I pick-up the shotgun and rapidly place my cheek on the cheek piece to get into the proper firing positioning/eye alignment - my dominant eye is automatically set to the height of the red dot scope. And try as I may, I cannot get my dominant firing eye low enough (or down past the high cheekpiece) to see the front bead site thru the bottom of the scope mount.

I personally went up into the mountains this last weekend and tested my whole set-up. I shot around $200 worth of shotgun ammo. (3" and 2 3/4" inch, 00-Buck, slugs and sabot rounds). Almost 200 rounds worth of enjoyment. And it was a blast!!!

Ha ha ha.

Get it?

A "BLAST"?

Ooooo, hooo, hooo, hooo.

Me so funny! ;)

Just kiddin.

But truthfully, the red dot sight in conjunction with the Knoxx (recoil reducing) Stock worked great for what I intended it for. (Recoil reduction, which in turn gave me much faster follow-up shots, with super fast target acquisition). So the Knoxx Stock with the high cheekpiece was perfect for me.

But if you want, total, long distance accuracy, then DO NOT mount a scope above your receiver. Go for a solid front sight. A "Ghost Ring Sight" or a "Rifle Sight". (My personal preference is the "Ghost Ring Sight").

As a matter of fact, my buddy brought his Benelli M2 (with Ghost Ring Sights), and I was walking baseball-sized stones downrange (with 1oz slugs) from about the 60 to 70 yard range. Zero misses. But the trade-off was much more felt recoil, which in turn translated into slower follow-up shots.

To each his own.

To recap: If you have some type of scope or red dot sight on your shotgun, and you are planing to use it in conjunction with the HIGH CHEEK PIECE of your Knoxx SpecOps Stock (which you must do if you want to rapidly acquire a sight picture with your scope), then do not think that you will be able to use the front sight of your barrel. If you are going to install a scope or red-dot sight onto your shotgun - WITH THE KNOXX HIGH CHEEK PIECE - save your "shekels" and don't invest in rifle sights or ghost ring sights...as you WILL NOT be able to use them. (But if you are going to use a scope mount WITHOUT the high cheek piece...then it should be OK).

OK...I Just wanted to throw yall some stuff to chew on.

Thanks again for your ears, Folks.

In Christ: Raymond

Mixstuff
March 17, 2007, 04:43 AM
I have a TacStar Side saddle (6-rd 12-ga) on my 870 HD and am trying to find a scope mount (for a red dot) that will not interfere with my current setup. Any ideas?

Nematocyst
March 17, 2007, 05:00 AM
Mixstuff, welcome to THR.
You'll find us to be a mostly friendly group,
even if somewhat opinionated. :rolleyes:
(See below.)

As the founder of this thread,
as a kid who grew up with an 870 in 16 ga,
who now owns an 870P in 12,
I'm just going to offer up an opinion.

No "truth" implied,
just an opinion.
(The red pill. (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=54954&d=1174077520))

Why would anyone
want to put a scope
on a shotgun?

Red dot or otherwise,
it just doesn't make sense to me.

To each their own,
YMMV, and all that.

Mine still has the original bead sight.
It may have a set of ghost rings someday,
like the ones I just put on my 336.
But I'm thinking not.

My shotgun is for up close and personal,
defined as 30 m and less.
(And usually MUCH less.)
Inside the perimeter,
where point and shoot
is all that counts.

I just don't get it.

Having said that,
I'm sure that someone
will be along shortly
to offer an answer to your question.

Nem

BA/UU/R

RaymondMillbrae
March 17, 2007, 08:48 AM
MixStuff,

Nematocyst is correct. I am also of the camps that a solid ghost ring site is the preferrable sight to have. For accuracy, the ghost sight is the absolute bomb! (Using slugs and free standing, I can plink at golf balls at 30 yards...no problemo)!

But as you can see in my above post, I like to play.

As a matter of fact, I like to play alot!

Gosh...come to think of it, we're going to the mountains again next weekend. The Gun Show was this last weekend, and I just purchased $200.00 worth of shotgun ammo. (Check out some of the goodies below).

http://x80.xanga.com/c89d305567631111181806/m79165013.jpg

http://x14.xanga.com/332d364a68731111181862/b79165060.jpg

http://x5c.xanga.com/00e83b7456568111181823/m79165022.jpg

http://x81.xanga.com/dfad315269133102574735/b72359921.jpg

http://xff.xanga.com/a3cd571109235102349847/b72188898.jpg

I'm fully loaded and ready to play!!!!!

Like I may have previously mentioned, I placed the red dot sight on my 870P for the purpose of SUPER-QUICK SIGHT ACQUISITION WITH BOTH EYES OPEN. (I intended to do a lot of outdoor slug shooting).

But if you are looking for a totally home defense weapon, then ghost ring sights are the way to go. (In my opinion).

Nothing to snag on. Nothing to turn ON. No dust on the lens to clean. Nothing to worry about if you drop it. Just a powerful home defense weapon that you can grab and shoot if the moment (Lord forbid) dictates.

But then again, if you have a few shekels burning a hole in your pocket (like I usually do), then a red dot is a pretty cool toy to have. And depending what you want to achieve, it will fill a certain nitch nicely!

Now...to defend the red dot in an actual combat scenario. It works.

Period!

Being a Ranger for 6.5 years, it has it's place. (Look at the Trijicon ACOG's).

But there is always a catch. A "tit-for-tat". You gain one thing, but you lose another.

I currently have my shotgun leaning against my microscope stand behind my computer chair. (Magazine loaded, but no shotshell in the chamber). And if the situation were to arise, I could still shoot and hit what I am aiming at with no problem...even if the red dot was turned OFF and the yellow lens covers were still on.

But then again, I've been in the martial arts for over 18 years, and I would probably try to subdue the bad guy unless the situation dictated that I take a different approach. (And since there are no kids in the house, there is always a handgun within arms reach).

No, I'm not a fanatic. I just like shooting and reloading (and carving leather, welding, and wood working) - so there are always trinkets pertaining to the latter hobbies lying around my place.

But to end, I have to agree with Nematocyst. If it's totally gonna be a "Grab-N-Shoot Home Defense Weapon"...then forget the red dot. It will complicate matters a bit. And it will be even worst if you do not continually practice with it...or if your heart is pumping like a jack-hammer in a life and death situation.

Hmmm...come to think of it...what was your question again? :scrutiny:

Oh yea...the mounts.

Hmmm.

I am not familiar with the way your side-mount is fastened onto the receiver. But could you just mount it OVER the B-Square mount and maybe use a spacer on the "for" (forward) portion of the side-mount? (If the side-mount extends beyond the B-Square mount).

OK, I'm done babbling.

Best wishes, Bro!!

In Christ: Raymond

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