Felon dares CCW holder to "shoot me"


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gunsmith
August 6, 2005, 10:22 PM
The "witness" is the guys wife,injured guy is a felon but the gunnies here in Reno say the CCW guy should never have showed him the gun

Witness to shooting disputes self-defense claim
http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/2005/07/22/104789.php?sps=rgj.com&sch=LocalNews&sp1=rgj&sp2=News&sp3=Local+News&sp5=RGJ.com&sp6=news&sp7=local_news
A woman who saw her former husband shot following an argument about another man’s barking dog disputes the shooter’s claim it was self-defense.
Willard “Ross” Brymer, 38, remained in critical condition Friday in Washoe Medical Center after he was shot Wednesday night in Huffaker Park following an altercation with dog owner Kevin Kramer, 51.
Brymer’s former wife, Dena Carter, of Reno, was with Brymer, eating fast food in the grass.
Carter said Kramer shot Brymer because Brymer yelled at his dog to get away from them.
She said Brymer did not strike Kramer and said Kramer’s injuries — which required stitches — were self-inflicted.
“(Kramer) freaked out and said, ‘What are you saying to my dog, you punk,’” Carter recounted Friday.
“He was mad and pulled out his gun and shot him. ”
Kramer had an unlisted number and could not be reached for comment.
Carter added it was a large unleashed dog that attacked Brymer, who told it “shoo” and “get away.” Kramer said his cocker spaniel, Harley, is the one that barked at Brymer.
“I still feel the blood on my hands and can hear him (Brymer) calling me for help,” Carter said. “I picture him rolling off my car with his intestines spilling out. I want so badly to help him, but there’s nothing I can do.”
Kramer, of Reno, could not be reached for comment Friday about Carter’s account of the events. He said in an interview on Thursday that he feared for his life when he shot Brymer in the chest.
He said the shooting occurred after Brymer sprinted toward him and battered him. Kramer said prior to the attack, he had shown Brymer his gun and told him to leave, which prompted Brymer to say “shoot me.”
Lt. Ron Donnelly of Reno police said detectives are aware that Carter’s version of events differs from Kramer’s. Detectives are also looking for more witnesses to sort out what happened.
Donnelly said evidence points to Kramer being struck in the incident but stressed the investigation is not complete.
Carter described Brymer as a religious man, with five children, who is employed as an iron worker.
She said he dreamed of building structures in Iraq and New York City.
Brymer’s criminal history ranges from arrests for battery with a deadly weapon and possessing stolen property to a prison term for possessing drugs.

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shermacman
August 6, 2005, 10:52 PM
OK.
I read the article three times.
I can't follow the cast of characters. Is it me or is the world of boyfriends and girlfriends and ex-spouses and fathers and mothers and dog owners who want to kill each other just too complicated?

Standing Wolf
August 6, 2005, 10:53 PM
Brymer’s criminal history ranges from arrests for battery with a deadly weapon and possessing stolen property to a prison term for possessing drugs.

Other than one or two minor incidents, a man of sterling character who probably wouldn't even know how to tell a fib.

Hawkmoon
August 6, 2005, 10:56 PM
Carter described Brymer as a religious man, with five children, who is employed as an iron worker.
I'm confused, too.

If Brymer is such a saint of a man, why is she his former wife?

rich636
August 6, 2005, 11:20 PM
“I still feel the blood on my hands and can hear him (Brymer) calling me for help,” Carter said. “I picture him rolling off my car with his intestines spilling out. I want so badly to help him, but there’s nothing I can do.”

I thought the article said he was hit in the chest?

I'm a little confused :scrutiny:

Firethorn
August 6, 2005, 11:40 PM
I'm sure the truth will come out in investigation. If the emergency room did their job, they have pictures of everything, and the experts can generally spot 'self inflicted' wounds very easily.

TrybalRage
August 6, 2005, 11:48 PM
yeah. wait. what?

GunGoBoom
August 6, 2005, 11:51 PM
You guys summed up my thoughts exactly: Prior offenses including assault/battery, AND a wound, but we're to believe that he did nothing to provoke it this time, and the wound on the shooter is self-inflicted. Furthermore, if he's hit in the chest, his intestines don't fight gravity to go up and spill out the chest.

Well, TrybalRage summed up my thoughts when I first wake up hung over.

PinnedAndRecessed
August 6, 2005, 11:56 PM
I'm a little confused

Me too. I thought I was struck with attention deficit disorder for a moment. But the truth is the article is very poorly written.

Firethorn
August 7, 2005, 12:04 AM
Hmm...
Cleaned up version:

50% article:
Dena Carter, Former wife(reconciling/remarrying?): My hubby's a saint!

20% article:
Police: The stories are in dispute. Evidence collaberates Kramer's story, so far. We're still investigating. btw, the one shot(Brymer) has a medium sized rap sheet, including assault with a deadly and prison time.

10% article:
Hospital facts - Willard “Ross” Brymer is in the hospital in critical condition.

20% article:
Kramer(dog owner): The guy attacked me, I pulled my gun, fearing for my life. I tried to simply scare him away with it, but he kept coming, making a comment that implied he though I wouldn't shoot. He was wrong.

As for the 'chest' wound, there are many people who associate everthing below the neck and above the groin as "Chest". Though I doubt a CCW pistol is going to create a hole big enough for guts to come out. Heck, I don't think it could do it even if it just creased the guy just right.

geekWithA.45
August 7, 2005, 09:54 AM
The press has been seeking out and highlighting, and possibly muddying questionable shoots by permit holders.

This is the 3rd or 4th recent story that fits that profile.

dpesec
August 7, 2005, 10:03 AM
"If" the shooting was justified, we'll never hear that. Why? because it would be a plus, and it would also not have a negative impact on people's opinion of CCW holders. This way people get the impression CCW is a bad thing, people pulling guns and blood running in the streets. Seems we've heard that line before. :banghead:

Byron Quick
August 7, 2005, 10:13 AM
If Brymer is such a saint of a man, why is she his former wife?

Depends. Sounds like she would have been bored with a saint, you know?

wingman
August 7, 2005, 10:44 AM
Brymer’s criminal history ranges from arrests for battery with a deadly weapon and possessing stolen property to a prison term for possessing drugs.


yeah, nice guy.

El Tejon
August 7, 2005, 10:59 AM
Isn't this a script for an episode of "Reno911!"??? :confused:

Dogs, people insulting dogs, fast food on the front lawn, baby mommas, ex-girlfriends, obviously this story reads better with a banjo soundtrack. :D

Geno
August 7, 2005, 11:03 AM
I just sit here wondering how some people get a CCW. Then, upon reflecting on my readings in recent text which details each of the 50 states' laws concerning CCW, etc., I recall that some states have considerably lower standards than others. Michigan is quite difficult even though a "shall issue" state. So, this "gentleman" with some prior legal issues ALSO had a CCW? This article was so poorly written that I could barely follow it.

I too see a disturbing trend. There are some very questionable shootings going on. And the media seems to be bent on highlighting these shootings for President Hillary for when she takes over the reins of coercion, repression and distortion. Such cases are the necessary precursor to action. After all, one instance is not history nor is it trend. I seriously doubt that we will see many, if any, publications of the many hundreds of times firearms owners legitimately, cool-headily use their firearms prudently (or DO NOT) use their firearms when they could have.

The present nature of shootings is disturbing regarding the future possession of CCWs, and possible other constraints.

Doc2005

AK-74me
August 7, 2005, 11:08 AM
OK.
I read the article three times.
I can't follow the cast of characters. Is it me or is the world of boyfriends and girlfriends and ex-spouses and fathers and mothers and dog owners who want to kill each other just too complicated?

After reading it twice and still not following I scrolled down to see some replys, feeling better I'm not the only one.

NHBB
August 7, 2005, 11:20 AM
I gave up after a couple attempts, expecting it to be a joke thread lol.... it is sad that anyone writes like that, let alone gets it published.

WYO
August 7, 2005, 11:38 AM
Isn't this a script for an episode of "Reno911!"???
Dogs, people insulting dogs, fast food on the front lawn, baby mommas, ex-girlfriends

It just sounds like every day police work to me.

El Tejon
August 7, 2005, 11:43 AM
WYO, you got that right, my friend. :D

No wonder police reports are so incomprehensible sometimes. :uhoh: Let's go diagram this one on the greaseboard. :D

publius
August 7, 2005, 12:18 PM
So, this "gentleman" with some prior legal issues ALSO had a CCW? This article was so poorly written that I could barely follow it.

The article was pretty indecipherable, but the guy on the FRONT end of the gun was the one with legal issues. The CCW holder shot him.

dolanp
August 7, 2005, 02:22 PM
She said Brymer did not strike Kramer and said Kramer’s injuries — which required stitches — were self-inflicted.

Uh.. right. So he cut himself up or shot himself or something to make it look like this guy attacked him? Sounds like the ex-wife is telling all the tall tales. Sad thing is that whoever talks first tends to be the one that gets listened to.

WYO
August 7, 2005, 11:48 PM
El Tejon, you raise a good point. Perhaps we should collaborate on a series of relationship diagrams and new buzzwords that would simplify report writing for police. If we’re lucky, it could eliminate sentences such as “The victim’s wife’s cousin’s stepfather’s ex-girlfriend’s brother’s (the “Dog Owner”) dog ate the victim’s stepmother’s baby’s hamburger on the victim’s front lawn, thereby provoking the victim to insult the Dog Owner, whereupon the Dog Owner shot the victim.”

walking arsenal
August 8, 2005, 12:31 AM
intestines spilling out? what'd he do, shoot him with a chainsaw?

Add me to the confused tally

onrhander
August 8, 2005, 01:49 AM
:confused: Is the woman the ex of the CCW or the other guy? :banghead:

Cosmoline
August 8, 2005, 02:55 PM
Yet another piece of horrible journalism. I can't tell who's on first.

doberman
August 8, 2005, 05:36 PM
:confused:

*head explodes*

rock jock
August 8, 2005, 06:02 PM
Just confirms what I've always said - fast food is bad for you.

jdberger
August 8, 2005, 06:35 PM
This is what I have (had to read it a few times, but I work with lawyers and have two kids under 5 so I'm getting pretty literate in Incomprehensible).

Cast:

Kevin Kramer (shooter & dog owner)
Willard “Ross” Brymer (guy who got shot)
Dena Carter (Witness)
Dog (dog)

Ex-wife version
Brymer and Carter were sharing a BigMac on the grass in a park.
Giant dog attacked picnickers.
Brymer said, "Shoo!"
Kramer said, "Don't talk to my dog, Punk!"
Kramer pulls gun and shoots Brymer.
Force of gunshot propels Brymer onto Carter's car.
Force of gunshot also disembowles Brymer.
Kramer attacks self.

Shooter version
Brymer and Carter were sharing a BigMac on the grass in a park.
Dog (Cocker Spaniel) came over and asked to share the BigMac, or maybe just a fry or two.
Brymer screams at dog, "Shoo! Get away!"
Kramer said, "Don't talk to my dog, Punk!"
Brymer threatens Kramer.
Kramer displays legally carried firearm. Tells Brymer to "Get away."
Brymer says, "Shoot me!"
Brymer attacks Kramer.
Kramer obliges and shoots Brymer in the chest.
Dog eats BigMac.

Additional Facts:

Brymer is a deeply religious multiple violent felon ironworker with five kids.
Carter is the ex-wife of Brymer and McDonalds afficionado.
Kramer needed stiches after attack.

Mr. X
August 8, 2005, 06:42 PM
Better check your facts - Brymer is the Felon.

jdberger
August 8, 2005, 06:45 PM
Sorry, got distracted by one of the aforementioned lawyers...fixed. :cuss:

ssteven1
August 8, 2005, 08:10 PM
Carter is Brymers ex-wife

shermacman
August 8, 2005, 08:31 PM
The dog is from a litter of pups from Brymer's first wife who was killed by her second husband.


No, I made that up!

gunsmith
August 8, 2005, 08:34 PM
I was very concerned with the outcome of the big macTM :D

Coronach
August 9, 2005, 01:33 AM
Just another day at the office. :D

Mike ;)

Coronach
August 9, 2005, 01:36 AM
Thoughts:

1. That's an excellent write up, but I concur...Carter is the ex-wife of Brymer, not Kramer.

2. Daring a guy with a gun to shoot you is almost as stupid as naming a cocker spaniel "Harley."

Mike :D

El Tejon
August 9, 2005, 08:23 AM
Mike, please speculate as to the tooth to tattoo ratio present at the festivities. :scrutiny:

Igloodude
August 9, 2005, 08:43 AM
Thanks for the summary, jd - I was thinking that the woman was the ex of the CCW shooter, and simultaneously calling the CCW shooter a saint and that he faked his own wounds. I'm getting a headache just thinking about thinking about it. :banghead:

jdberger
August 9, 2005, 11:46 AM
fixed...

iamkris
August 9, 2005, 01:30 PM
Frankly I knew where this was going when the story said they were "eatin' fast food out on the front lawn". They probably picked it up to celebrate the fact they had just finished up taping the Jerry Springer show as featured guests.

renogal
August 29, 2005, 05:10 PM
As I sit here reading your post, I think how judgemental you all are. I know this man personally. His family is going through H**L with what has happended. As for the Jerry Springer remark, that was just wrong. Who here can say that they have not made mistakes in his life. I know I cannot. I do agree the whole thing could and should have not happened and Ross did open his big mouth, but the man is still in critical condition and fighting for his life. Maybe the whole truth will come out when he gets OFF LIFE SUPPORT!! And just to clairify, he was hit in the belly and he lost most of his liver, his spleen. 1/2 of his intenstines and part of his stomach.

renogal

jdberger
August 29, 2005, 06:29 PM
Renogal,

Perhaps it is easier to make fun of Mr. Brymer because we don't know him. I, for one, am sorry that it hurts your feelings.

All we have to go on is the report in the newspaper. From that poorly written account, it seems like Mr. Brymer attacked a man that he knew to be armed and who he had also dared to shoot him.

I would be interested in your version.

gc70
August 29, 2005, 07:50 PM
I don't think my father would have liked Kramer. Daddy always said never use a gun to threaten a man - shoot him if you need to, but don't threaten him.

CARRY'IN
August 29, 2005, 07:53 PM
The press has been seeking out and highlighting, and possibly muddying questionable shoots by permit holders.

Sounds about right to me. The article is terrible. The only thing that comes through loud and clear to me is that a gunowner shot someone for yelling at his dog. Anti-gun message there for sure.

kbr80
August 29, 2005, 08:13 PM
The dog is from a litter of pups from Brymer's first wife who was killed by her second husband.


The litter being fed on Big Macs, thats why the dog bothered Brymer. :evil:

shermacman
August 29, 2005, 08:46 PM
Renogal,
I contributed to some of the obnoxious comments on this thread. It goes without saying that I meant no harm to you or anyone personally affected by this shooting. The vast majority of the posts here were directly related to the wording of the article. It was a terribly written report. I am sorry to have added to your pain in this event. I hope all works out for the best; for you, your friends and the family of the man involved.

fastbolt
August 29, 2005, 08:50 PM
Personally, I'd suspect that it's hardly ever wise to rely on a media (especially newspaper) account of something to try and understand what really happened ...

The article was poorly written, granted. I'd like to say that I've never read a crime report written by another cop that was as bad, but I can't say that ... I can even admit to having read worse, as a matter of fact, and really wonder what standards they're using nowadays to evaluate and pass folks in FTO programs.

Eye witnesses can be unreliable.

Sometimes witnesses can make a lot of assumptions, even to the point of drawing conclusions, instead of providing whatever clear & unbiased observations they may possess.

Sometimes they desperately want to tell you what they think is important, instead of answering what you ask. They may take offense if you don't want to hear their opinions and conclusions, but only learn what they specifically actually heard or saw.

Sometimes they may have a personal reason to distort the facts, or at least take great liberties with them.

Sometimes they simply don't understand what occurred, or remember it as it occurred.

Defensive wounds can often be identified by medical examinations.

There are often more witnesses to an event than you might think. The trick is finding them and getting them to cooperate.

Not every defensive problem requires a gun, either.

It 's not common to hear an ordinary citizen apparently entice someone, whom they know is armed, to shoot them. It might not be all that unbelieveable to learn that someone with a felony criminal history involving violence might do something like that, though.

None of us can render judgment on what happened, nor should we try ...

We weren't there, for one thing, and it's not our responsibility for another.

It does sort of sound like another day at work ...

Stay safe and AWARE folks.

jdberger
August 29, 2005, 09:30 PM
Wait wait wait....we can render judgment...............

We were given a particular version of the facts that have not been contradicted, so far. From that version of the facts, we determined that that shoot-ee made a poor choice in inviting the shooter to shoot him, and then reinforcing the point by attacking him. These are reasonable conclusions given the facts that we have been presented with.

I am not omnicient. I can't know everything. Until I am presented with a contrary fact pattern, I will continue to opine that Mr. Brymer committed an extraordinarily stupid act.

Though I feel some empathy toward Renogal and the family of Mr. Brymer, I don't regret my comments or my attempts at satire.

Finally, part of the deterrent of doing something stupid is the shame and hurt that it will bring your family and friends. Sorry, Renogal, for your pain, but Mr. Brymer's actions had consequences. Perhaps he should have considered them before acting.

gunsmith
August 30, 2005, 02:39 AM
eh.
So Ross opened his big mouth? (your words)
He knew the other guy had a gun?

You need better friends lady!

If you hang out with people like Ross you're putting your life in danger.
Personally I have a hard time accepting your for real.

If you are real , let me buy you a cup of coffee!

M-Rex
August 30, 2005, 02:48 AM
My spider sense is tingling.

I'm getting the gut feeling that this was a Nora Henry Ida situation.

No Humans Involved.

bogie
August 30, 2005, 08:38 AM
Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!

Steve!

renogal
August 30, 2005, 09:44 AM
I am for real, and I just might take you up on that coffee, and I had only posted once because I had to wait until someone said I could join. I have been reading the post here for about a week and just had to say something.

I did not say that I hang out with Mr. Brymer I said I know him and his family and have know them for about 22 years. I do believe, and from what I know of the shooting that Ross did not know the man was armed until right before he was shot.

I also did say "he opened his big mouth" but that does not mean that he should have been shot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ross has not always been a model citizen, but he did have it together for a while and things were going in the right direction. I know all you have to go on it the piece of trash the newspaper calls journalism, but there is ALWAYS more than one version.

renogal

Preacherman
August 30, 2005, 11:36 AM
Renogal, I'm as compassionate and sensitive a person as I can be (given my calling, it's a necessity), but allow me to assure you of one thing: if some doofus is behaving toward me in a threatening manner, and knows I'm armed, and tries to attack me anyway, he's down. Period. No further questions asked or needed.

Island Beretta
August 30, 2005, 12:27 PM
in a gunfight we have no winners, only survivors.....

Renogal, these things are always painful for both parties...that's a given, that's the baseline..but then we have to look at what happened....

Mnemesyne
August 30, 2005, 12:39 PM
add me to the confused list :scrutiny:

I've read it through a few times and I still can't make out who did what to whom.....I'm a bit perplexed with the chest shot, but intestines coming out bit.....

Andrew Rothman
August 30, 2005, 01:08 PM
I did not say that I hang out with Mr. Brymer I said I know him and his family and have know them for about 22 years. I do believe, and from what I know of the shooting that Ross did not know the man was armed until right before he was shot.

Aha. There's renogal's problem: It's not fair that Kramer didn't let on he was armed until his life was threatened.

You see, angelic Mr. Brymer would never have attacked Mr. Kramer had he known Mr. Kramer could fight back....

renogal, you're not doing anything to help convince us otherwise.

And, dangit, it's lunch time, and now I want a Big Mac!

renogal
August 30, 2005, 04:56 PM
Matt, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything other than it all seems that there is a whole lot of blaming Ross!!! A man got shot over a dog!!! All anyone has heard is the shooters side other than Ross's wife. She has gotten bits and pieces from him, but not a whole lot. The ex wife has told three different versions so I am not about to believe a whole lot she says, and as for the shooter.... who knows if what he is saying is true. From what the police say he isn't the one who called the police like the paper says.

I know it must be just as hard for Kramer's family as it is for Ross's, but then again Kramer is not in the hospital fighting for his life.

Again to clarify: He was not hit in the chest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

renogal

thorn726
August 30, 2005, 06:45 PM
A man got shot over a dog!!!

well im about as confused as everyone else, but it does look like it came down to the above.

an angry, barking dog is a frightening thing.

seems like guy gets nervous about dog , yells, gets shot- is that right? man, confusing, but regardless, sounds like the shooter needs his ccw pulled.

ahh, ok-
Brymer screams at dog, "Shoo! Get away!"
Kramer said, "Don't talk to my dog, Punk!"
Brymer threatens Kramer.
Kramer displays legally carried firearm. Tells Brymer to "Get away."
Brymer says, "Shoot me!"
Brymer attacks Kramer.
Kramer obliges and shoots Brymer in the chest.
Dog eats BigMac.

Additional Facts:

Brymer is a deeply religious multiple violent felon ironworker with five kids.
Carter is the ex-wife of Brymer and McDonalds afficionado.
Kramer needed stiches after attack.

well, if brymer attacked kramer, hmm. looks like maybe it WAs almost a good shoot, but what kind of JERK uses his gun to defend his Dog's poor behavior??

yeah, CCW- should be pulled from this loser.

having a gun doenst give you the right to mess up other peoples lunch.

go ahead and mess with ME when i'm eating!

Andrew Rothman
August 30, 2005, 06:57 PM
A man got shot over a dog!!!well im about as confused as everyone else, but it does look like it came down to the above.
Well, no. By all indications, a man with a long violent record got shot because he attacked a guy with a gun (badly enough that the gun guy required stitches).

Well, either that, or gun guy shot lunch guy for yelling at his dog, then, cleverly, severely injured himself to divert suspicion.

Golly, which theory sounds more plausible to you?


well, if brymer attacked kramer, hmm. looks like maybe it WAs almost a good shoot, but what kind of JERK uses his gun to defend his Dog's poor behavior??

You seem very confused. Once Brymer attacked Kramer, Kramer was defending his life, not his doggy's manners.

torpid
August 30, 2005, 07:15 PM
Kramer, of Reno, could not be reached for comment Friday about Carter’s account of the events. He said in an interview on Thursday that he feared for his life when he shot Brymer in the chest.
He said the shooting occurred after Brymer sprinted toward him and battered him. Kramer said prior to the attack, he had shown Brymer his gun and told him to leave, which prompted Brymer to say “shoot me.”

So if this (incomprehensible) account is to be believed, Mr. Kramer pulled his weapon before Mr. Brymer attacked him, then Mr. Brymer said "shoot me", then proceeded to sprint toward and attack Mr. Kramer?


.

The Drew
August 30, 2005, 07:34 PM
Maybe Mr. Brymer will learn his lesson and not antagonize a person pointing a gun at him...

It seems like Mr. Brymer has an attitude problem, and it got adjusted...

Rule 1. Bring a gun...

GT
August 30, 2005, 07:59 PM
You can yell and jump up and down as much as you want but you can't lay hands on another person. It's that simple.

Once that happens and you are big and angry maybe I am in fear of my life.
And maybe you should be in fear of yours.

G

gc70
August 30, 2005, 10:35 PM
It looks like there may be blame enough to go around in this story.

Hawkmoon
August 30, 2005, 11:25 PM
It looks like there may be blame enough to go around in this story.
True.

All parties should agree to jointly sue McDonalds Corporation. After all, if Mickey D's hadn't spent years advertising Big Mac Attacks, Mr. Brymer might not have been overcome with violent thoughts and assaulted Mr. Kramer.

In the end, I guess it wasn't really over a dog, after all ... it was a Big Mac Attack gone bad.

Ban Big Macs. It's for the children.

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