Status of Norinco Import Ban?


PDA






Hawkmoon
August 7, 2005, 09:17 PM
I was doing some research, trying to find the number and text of the Executive Order banning the importation of Norinco products. Didn't find either, and if anyone can direct me I would appreciate it.

What I did find, however, was that the ban was executed in May of 2003 and was to be two years in duration. As it is now August of 2005, that means unless something happened to extend it, the ban has expired.

What's the scoop? Is anyone bringing in those Norinco trench shotties and 1911s, or was the ban extended?

If you enjoyed reading about "Status of Norinco Import Ban?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
The Real Hawkeye
August 7, 2005, 09:30 PM
Norinco makes some good guns for very reasonable prices. I hope they did not renew it.

Hypnogator
August 7, 2005, 10:17 PM
Saw a new Norinco knockoff of the Win 97 riot gun at Sportsman's Warehouse in Lewisville the other day. Don't know how long they had it, though.

beerslurpy
August 7, 2005, 10:23 PM
I care more about their drum magazines. I havent seen a decently priced chinese drum in like 15 years.

Moonclip
August 8, 2005, 06:48 PM
Chinese ammo and handguns were banned by a Clinton EO so they will not be imported. The few Chinese guns after that seem to be stuff that does not have a rifled bore like shotguns.

The 2 year deal was just a feel good slap on the wrist and I think the Chinese shotguns we see like the NEF pardner pump 870 ripoff are not technically "Norincos" so the ban had no effect and it seems to be over anyways.

Eightball
August 8, 2005, 07:01 PM
For the Clinton EO banning Norinco--does it have an expiration date, or are we all forever forbidden from cheaper versions of otherwise great firearms?

Al Norris
August 8, 2005, 07:31 PM
Gads! I would love to buy Norinco's new version of the M1A. I've heard from a friend in Canada that it's every bit as good as the overpriced Springfield version, but alas.... :(

Hawkmoon
August 8, 2005, 07:37 PM
Chinese ammo and handguns were banned by a Clinton EO so they will not be imported.
Executive Order # ____?

Text?

Does ANYBODY have a link to this information? PLEASE!

billwiese
August 8, 2005, 08:05 PM
They may be OK firearms, but why do you want to do business with an enemy country that aims nuclear missles at you?

Buying at WalMart is far less of an issue than buying from Norinco, where money will go back directly to Red Chinese military. China & US will likely have a major military scrape in the next 25-50 years - why help our enemies?

Regardless of ban(s), I and many others, will not buy a Norinco product even if it was a $10 Luger w/lifetime ammo supply.


Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

yorec
August 8, 2005, 08:12 PM
Not really interested in today's supposed cold war... (similar notions could be had of any foreign country out there)

However, I am interested in a Norinco 1911. Anyone got that numbers for Hawkmoon?

Can'thavenuthingood
August 8, 2005, 08:54 PM
Got a Memorandum from clinton to treasury here, 13 August 1993. Talking about importation of Assault Pistols.

http://frwebgate4.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=5440556601+2+2+0&WAISaction=retrieve

The list of Executive Orders seems to be well hidden to me. I figured they would be readily available for our perusal. Maybe its some sort of patriot act thing to keep them out of terrorist's hands. Still looking.

The terrorists are in control.

Vick

Here are his E.O.'s
http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/clinton.html

Gewehr98
August 8, 2005, 09:14 PM
You're my hero.

Oops, maybe not:

Buying at WalMart is far less of an issue than buying from Norinco,

And that WalMart computer you're typing your self-proclaimed version of shirt-sleeve patriotism on this forum with, have you looked inside it yet? Hmm? Wanna guess where those computer parts came from?

I'll wait here while you look and report back. Assuming you'd even want to, the whole principle of the thing and all... :scrutiny:

GEM
August 8, 2005, 11:41 PM
We buy oil from a country that was the home of most of the folks who flew into the WTC and Pentagon. A country that continues to fund hate of us across the planet. Of course, they are our 'allies' in the WOT!

If China wants to sell us cheap guns - so what. Of course, we could use them when the 50 million Chinese come across the Mexican Border led by Hillary driving a Toyota! :eek:

We aimed missiles at China first!

Hey, can't GWB undo the Clinton crappola and the other exec orders?

Hawkmoon
August 8, 2005, 11:47 PM
That GE microwave you bought last month? Made in China.

The Sylvania television? Made in China.

Motorola DVD player? Made in China.

______? Made in China.

Open your eyes and look around. It's not a few Norinco 1911 clones that are going to tip the balance of trade back in our favor. That battle has already been lost, and we are ALL guilty of giving aid and comfort (or, if not that, our dollars) to the enemy.

So, to get back on topic here ...

Doesn't anybody know the number of the Executive Order, or have a link to the text thereof? I looked through the entire subject index in Can't Have's link to the national archives, and I didn't see anything that screamed out "Read me, I'm the one that banned the Norks." Was the ban hidden in some broader trade EO, or some other seemingly unrelated subject?

Joejojoba111
August 9, 2005, 01:07 AM
If China is the enemy then it is a questionable strategy for them to supply us with plentiful and inexpensive, acceptable quality firearms.

In fact you could make the argument that the enemy is the one working against you acquiring arms...

BTW I heard the first Norinco legislation was in 1989.

Here's a site explaining how they understand the reason they can't sell south- long story short, they can't sell because the ATF refuses to supply the forms that are mandatory.

"The above reasons are why we cannot process U.S. orders for Norinco firearms. We would happily fill U.S. orders for Norinco firearms if it weren't against the law to do so. Our Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (equivalent to the U.S. State Department) will not grant us a firearms export permit without first receiving a valid import permit (a 'Form 6' in your case) from the country of destination. The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (A.T.F.) will not approve a 'Form 6' because of the previously mentioned U.S. import bans on most Chinese firearms. Further details can be had from your local branch of the A.T.F."

Hawkmoon
August 9, 2005, 02:38 AM
The BATFE will not / cannot provide the Form 6 because there is apparently an Executive Order prohibiting the importation of Norinco firearms.

Accordingly, I again ask:

Doesn't anybody know the number of the Executive Order, or have a link to the text thereof? I looked through the entire subject index in Can't Have's link to the national archives, and I didn't see anything that screamed out "Read me, I'm the one that banned the Norks." Was the ban hidden in some broader trade EO, or some other seemingly unrelated subject?

beerslurpy
August 9, 2005, 02:49 AM
Anyone know what happened to the Norinco AK drums? Those were obviously affected by AWB, but now that it is gone, shouldnt the Chinese be emptying their warehouses to make room for the new 5.8mm bullpup accessories?

I am seriously jonesing for some 100 rd windup action.

Joejojoba111
August 9, 2005, 03:51 AM
"Accordingly, I again ask:

Doesn't anybody know the number of the Executive Order"

Funny thing, I figure the ATF ought to be able to recite that number. If they can't then there ain't no law.

Buck Snort
August 9, 2005, 04:47 AM
Why aren't you interested? Its a matter of major importance. Do you think you can just dismiss the issue in such a cavalier manner and that's all there is to it? Hey man, the Chinese goverment has plans to replace the USA as the primary military and economic power on this planet. They have a good shot at succeeding. You need to rethink your attitude over this.

Baba Louie
August 9, 2005, 12:03 PM
BJ Clinton passed several double top secret EO's and PDD's, such that even Congress does not know what they contain... (according to the following links)
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/1/29/104302.shtml

By mid-December 2000, President Clinton had issued 347 executive orders, which have far-reaching consequences. Among these, journalist Cliff Kincaid noted, there were 80 classified Presidential Decision Directives (PDDs) mandating secret, unilateral executive actions that impact on the freedom of Americans.
President Clinton, in fact, added a new dimension to these secret PDDs, which are not published anywhere – not even Congress is privy to them.
PDD-62, issued on the pretext of fighting terrorism, grants the FBI the power to maintain surveillance on Second Amendment groups and civic organizations opposed to the U.N., as well as "extremist" Christian fundamentalist groups.

Lengthy article from the Heritage think tank on Exec. Order issues…

http://www.heritage.org/Research/LegalIssues/LM2.cfm

Remember... the Elect Hillary in '08 campaign. More of the same expected. Do your part

Dionysusigma
August 9, 2005, 12:12 PM
http://membres.lycos.fr/punchline/images/arma_lev.jpg

Andropov: Excuse me, but I think I know how to fix this.
Watts: Move it! You don't know the components!
Andropov: Components. American components, Russian Components, ALL MADE IN TAIWAN!

:D

Found it.
05/27/2005

The Nonproliferation brochure has been changed by the deletion of NORINCO/North China Industries Corporation from the list of foreign persons designated by the Secretary of State as subject to an import ban pursuant to Executive Order 12938 of November 14, 1994, as amended by Executive Order 13094 of July 28, 1998.


On May 23, 2003, the Secretary of State determined that NORINCO/North China Industries Corporation had engaged in missile technology proliferation activities and imposed measures on NORINCO/North China Industries Corporation pursuant to Executive Order 12938, as amended, including a two-year ban on the importation into the United States of goods, technology or services produced or provided by NORINCO/North China Industries Corporation, its subunits and successors. This import ban was implemented by Treasury Department's Weapons of Mass Destruction Trade Control Regulations, 31 CFR Part 539 (the WMD Regulations).


To reflect the expiration of the two-year import ban imposed on NORINCO/North China Industries Corporation by the May 23, 2003 determination by the Secretary of State, NORINCO/North China Industries Corporation has been deleted from the Nonproliferation brochure's list of foreign persons designated pursuant to Executive Order 12938, as amended. Accordingly, imports from NORINCO/North China Industries Corporation are no longer subject to the prohibitions in Treasury's WMD Regulations. These imports, however, remain subject to all other applicable laws and regulations, including a two-year ban on the importation of products produced by NORINCO/North China Industries Corporation, its subunits and successors that was imposed by the Secretary of State on September 19, 2003, pursuant to section 73(a)(1) of the Arms Export Control Act and section 11B(b)(1) of the Export Administration Act of 1979, as amended (as carried out under Executive Order 13222).


Straight from http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/actions/20050527.shtml . Emphasis mine.

GEM
August 9, 2005, 12:50 PM
If China becomes the dominant power on Earth, it isn't going to be because I buy a 1911 for $300 from China as compared to a similarly priced gun from the Philippines or Brazil.

You know the Chinese buy lots of Boeing airplanes. Probably to fly the invasion troops here. So let's not sell them, so Airbus gets the business and Boeing shuts down!! All for freedom and liberty.

Hate to say this but there is nothing we can do to stop the rise of China as a superpower. If we have to live with MAD again, we can. I prefer trade and takeout.

Hawkmoon
August 9, 2005, 02:16 PM
Thank you, Dionysusigma.

If I read that correctly, as of 19 September we should be able to bring in Norinco products again?

Incidently, folks, I'm not asking because I want to buy a Nork .45 1911 clone, but because a friend in Europe wants to send me an air gun ... which happens to have been made by Norinco. We don't dare ship it because even though it's an air gun rather than a "firearm," the box and the "frame" both say Norinco, and we figure if the box is opened for inspection (hey, if they x-ray it, it's going to look like a GUN!) as soon as they see "Norinco" it'll be off the the crusher.

billwiese
August 9, 2005, 04:00 PM
Gewehr98 wrote:
I'm very proud of you, Bill.
You're my hero.
Oops, maybe not:

Buying at WalMart is far less of an issue than buying from Norinco,


And that WalMart computer you're typing your self-proclaimed version of shirt-sleeve patriotism on this forum with, have you looked inside it yet? Hmm? Wanna guess where those computer parts came from?


Um, sorry, I don't buy computers from WalMart. I feel sorry for those that do.
Junque. Don't buy 'em from Dell, HP, etc. either - I hate store-bought PCs. I build my PCs myself from various parts and get a better more reliable result than store PC. The quality motherboard is still Taiwanese, good disk drives still from Singapore. Maybe a couple of resistors or a connector are from Red China. but one senior rep from a quality Taiwan mobo mfgr told me quality mobo cos wouldn't risk Red Chinese parts, their connector quality is terrible, for example. My next PC will probably be made from an industrial-grade PC motherboard - Taiwan or US. Memory probably from Japanese or S Korean fabs.

I specifically look at everything I buy to try to avoid buying from China. It's probably not possible to be 100% but you can get there to 90+%.

When I bought a surround-sound SACD stereo system (Sony) it was a higher-end one still made in Japan. Took it apart to look at chips, board, etc. (I'm into electronics/software anyway) didn't see any Hong Kong or China marks.

For example, I'll never buy another pair of Durango boots. Got a pair in 2001 for kick-arounds/wet weather, etc. Didn't think to look - couldn't imagine Chinese making cowboy boots - but when cleaning 'em noticed the made in China mark. (Paraphrase Pace Picante sauce TV ad:" "Cowboy boots from China? String 'em up!")

And since China can't really make decent clothing that fits XXL -sized guys adequately I'm fairly safe on that front. Polo (Ralph Lauren) - which I commonly wear since it fits me and lasts quite a while - has said several times that clothing coming out of there doesn't match quality with what they get from other nation and no cost savings. They use Ctrl America and India/Bangladesh for their work. I buy Wrangler (pro-gun co) jeans made in US instead of Levi's (Levi Strauss is particularly antigun).

Shoes: Allen-Edmonds (USA), Cole-Haan (unfortunately div. of Nike now, but dress shoe line mix of US, Brazil, Bangladesh), Havana Joe (Portugal/Spain).
Lucchese and other US- or Mexico-mfgd boots. No-name tennis shoes are from Thailand.

My Philips big-screen projo HDTV was assembled in Tennessee with chips built in Dutch fabs (and a couple of Taiwanese fabs) with software written by Americans and Europeans. There is a chance that just the PC board (unstuffed w/parts) was made in China (Hong Kong).

My GE over-counter microwave is apparently a rewrapped Samsung from Korea but the GE washer, dryer, oven, dishwasher are US made and even the electronic controllers in my units are made in US (though w/$1. Hitachi controller chip for electronic front panel).

When I was updating my downstairs bathroom I paid $20+ more for faucets made in USA - all the sale stuff and base Delta and base Kohler seemed to be made in China. Countertop and cabinets and toilet all US made.

My new sofa/chair is made in USA with some stuffing and base (foot/caster) from Indonesia.

I rarely shop at WalMart except on vacation in Oregon anyway (ammo, soft drinks, paper plates): out here in metro California, I really wouldn't wanna be associated with their customer base: at best, the bad drivers will ding your car in the parking lot, at worst you'd get mugged. It's a zoo and this ain't Nordstrom's or even Target.

Dishes/plates/cups: Mexico, central Amer., Japan (Mikasa).

For some reason my Black & Decker carafe coffee maker was a combo of Canadian (IIRC) and Indonesian parts.

Truck: Ford F150. Prob a few chinese parts sneaked in but overall pretty good.

My 'buying period' of stuffing my home is largely over. So I'll have even less contact w/Red Chinese stuff. So most of my purchases are consumables (food, cleaning prods, paper towels, cat litter etc).

If you don't buy the cheapest items you can still find quite a bit of non-Chinese stuff. Just select for better fit & finish and that casts out the bottom 30%. And I'm glad to pay 25% more to not buy Red Chinese.

And while WalMart is not entirely Chinese (could be going that way though), buying from Norinco is especially bad because that money goes straight into Chinese military.

Summary: you can avoid Red Chinese products if you watch, think, and are willing to pay a little extra.


Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

billwiese
August 9, 2005, 04:10 PM
HawkMoon wrote:
We buy oil from a country that was the home of most of the folks who flew into the WTC and Pentagon. A country that continues to fund hate of us across the planet. Of course, they are our 'allies' in the WOT!

If China wants to sell us cheap guns - so what. Of course, we could use them when the 50 million Chinese come across the Mexican Border led by Hillary driving a Toyota!

We aimed missiles at China first!

We aimed missles at China because they were allied w/Russia (for awhile) and to protect our allies in area without having to have millions of men on line to fight them.

China's not afraid of getting shot w/our cheap guns. That Norinco purchase just helped fund improvements on some missile guidance or helped make a submarine quieter.

The Jihad against us by hateful Arab/Islamists will be a (somewhat costly) irritant. We may even lose more buildings in a big city again. But we can get over that, we're pretty adaptable.

China is a strategic threat. You can't compete against slave labor and where there's a huge excess labor pool. USSR became a superpower (somewhat hollow) by massive use of labor camps, GULAGs, etc.: unpaid labor built much of modern USSR starting in late 1920s on.

Red China's consumption of resources just to make schlock items will raise our raw material prices and oil costs, and much of their population is happy enough to just get the next grain of rice.

It's hindsight now, but when Russia & China were almost gonna go nuclear in very early 1970s, Kissinger shoulda told Dobrynin (USSR Ambassador to USA), "go for it, boys".


Bill Wiese
San Jose

billwiese
August 9, 2005, 04:19 PM
Hawkmoon wrote:
If China becomes the dominant power on Earth, it isn't going to be because I buy a 1911 for $300 from China as compared to a similarly priced gun from the Philippines or Brazil.

It's incremental. No one individual thing does it, it's the conglomeration of many items over time.

You know the Chinese buy lots of Boeing airplanes. Probably to fly the invasion troops here. So let's not sell them, so Airbus gets the business and Boeing shuts down!! All for freedom and liberty.

We should be putting MASSIVE pressure on other countries to not do biz with China. France invade us if we sabotage a few Airbuses on the tarmac waiting for shipment to China?

Hate to say this but there is nothing we can do to stop the rise of China as a superpower. If we have to live with MAD again, we can. I prefer trade and takeout.

Then, sir, you are a sellout/shill for cheap trinkets.

When "global" co's are shells in US but are essentially Chinese co's, there's gonna be a lot of lobbying money spread to Wash DC. Whaddya think'll happen to your (already reduced) freedoms?

There is a lot we can do. For one, helping co's move operations from China to Mexico could help alleviate that country's economic problems, with poltical pressure from US to fix its structural problems. Then, less border-crossing illegals as a side benefit to not funding arming our enemy.

It might even be worth a war and losing a city. American doctrine must always be, "We must always win, and we will always be top-dog." We cannot let slave-labor societies out-breed us, we owe our brother Americans that much.

Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

horge
August 9, 2005, 04:50 PM
Easy there, Bill.
No call for labelling anyone a shill or sell-out.

I come from a country under economic and military aggression from the PRoC. Dodging Red Chinese merchandise is thrice as hard to do here than there, but I try to do it too. It doesn't mean I disrespect the choice of other Filipinos to devote their energies elsewhere. Their choice, to buy or not to buy, remains a freedom that I'd cherish.

We're presently cursed with a spineless leader, but believe me... as part of the informal leaguer (Japan-Taiwan-Philippines-Thailand) that might restrain a militarily-aggressive China , we have a reasonable idea of what China can and cannot aspire to. Doesn't mean they can't be deluded enough to try,
but hear me out.

The domestic mineral resource base (not just oil) that China draws on cannot sustain the country's growth any longer, and it has begun investing in other countries. This is why China is downsizing its navy (which was getting old and due for overhaul): saber-rattling isn't going to win it any mineral-exploitation concessions from its neighbors. I admit China will still want to take Taiwan.

Still, China's newfound economic strength and confidence goes a long way towards muting China's paranoia, which is one of the key motivations towards its military investment. Capitalism has certainly changed the character of China's 'communism', and may continue to, for the better.

.

spartacus2002
August 9, 2005, 06:09 PM
I think the Chinese play a deeper game than most of us realize. They understand the idea behind "why steal what you can buy for cheap." And as long as they keep us mildly afraid, we're willing to sell to them and buy from them.

joab
August 10, 2005, 01:16 AM
If China is the enemy then it is a questionable strategy for them to supply us with plentiful and inexpensive, acceptable quality firearms. Why? What are we gonna do shoot their ICBMs with our Nork M1s.

I own a few Nork knock offs that I'm impressed with, all bought used. And I would love to get a Commander size 1911, but would have a difficult time reconciling contributing to the military might of a country who's stated goal is the overthrowing of America.

I applaud bill's commitment, I wish I had the will power to be as conscientious.

BTW alot of the Nikes are made in Vietnam, they hate China too

Lucky
August 10, 2005, 01:39 AM
I totally understand why people feel as they do about China, but IMHO firearms are a minor part of their economy. And firearms are very removed from aerospace industry. If you want to blame someone for their missiles, I think it was Boeing or McD (can't remember which) that applied for a licence, and were granted one, to sell precision aircraft tooling equipment to China. China said they were going to use it for airliner parts, only. As soon as they got the stuff it went straight to a missile factory :mad: And no-one was punished.

The tech to make firearms is very different from missile tech. And aiui Norinco is a conglomerate of many littler companies, so the company making pistols isn't going to turn their profits over to the company making missiles, why should they? They'll use their profits to re-invest in their own comany and come out with another product line, or stuff like that.

So on an emotionless level I don't see how buying small arms from China helps them in a threatening manner, because 1)The $values are insignificantly small 2)the technologies are non-transferable to other more threatening industries 3)profits will not be generated and funneled to other more threatening industries.

Hawkmoon
August 10, 2005, 01:39 AM
Billweise --

You have misquoted me twice. More precisely, you have attributed to me statements posted by other participants.

Please attribute quotes to the correct parties, or stop quoting.

GEM
August 10, 2005, 02:05 PM
It might even be worth a war and losing a city. American doctrine must always be, "We must always win, and we will always be top-dog." We cannot let slave-labor societies out-breed us, we owe our brother Americans that much.

Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

-------------

You called me a sellout. I regard myself as simply more intelligent with a better grip on history than you. Perhaps, you will volunteer your city and your home as ground zero. :fire: :fire:

spartacus2002
August 10, 2005, 02:17 PM
It might even be worth a war and losing a city. American doctrine must always be, "We must always win, and we will always be top-dog." We cannot let slave-labor societies out-breed us, we owe our brother Americans that much.

So you now arrogate to yourself the right to wipe out 100K to 1M of your fellow Americans in your vain bid for American glory??

Out-breeding us? Dude, they already have 4x+ our population.

jnojr
August 10, 2005, 02:57 PM
I own a few Nork knock offs that I'm impressed with, all bought used. And I would love to get a Commander size 1911, but would have a difficult time reconciling contributing to the military might of a country who's stated goal is the overthrowing of America.

So buy a SA Ultra Compact (http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-pstl-1911-uc.shtml) I got mine for $499

Personally, i'd jump at the chance to buy a Norinco M-14 clone. I just can't see paying $1200+ for a Springfield. And I'll bet the SAs will drop in price significantly with competition :)

If you enjoyed reading about "Status of Norinco Import Ban?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!