Police arrest karate instructor & kids in self defense class


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boofus
August 9, 2005, 10:26 PM
Just when I thought New Dork couldn't get any loonier look what comes up.

http://www.dhonline.com/articles/2005/08/09/news/local/news02.txt

http://www.dhonline.com/articles/2005/08/09/news/opinion/edit03.txt

Apparently their finest knights in blue decided karate class students sparring with each other under instructor supervision pose a public hazard and arrested the whole lot of them.

I can only imagine what they would do when they figure out people shoot real guns when practicing at the range... :scrutiny:

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beerslurpy
August 9, 2005, 10:55 PM
They were having a ninja fight vs a guy with an airsoft gun.

The cops probably heard: "*panicked woman*Some guy is killing people with a machine gun and like 30 guys are trying to jump him! *Screams*"
"Dr. Al Queda strikes again! We could be on the news! *grabs guns* To the batmobile!"
Later on at the scene....
"What a letdown. I really wanted to be on the news."
"Well, lets at least arrest someone."

Orthonym
August 9, 2005, 11:33 PM
When I was a kid, Mattel made *very* realistic SAA Colt cap pistols, with which I had lots of fun. Had little pretend cartridges with springs in them which shot plastic bullets. I used to shoot my brother with them. Of course, people weren't so effing mental about everything, back then.

KriegHund
August 9, 2005, 11:39 PM
Were they not wearing uniforms?

Pretty stupid. Makin me hate ya more and more every day my dear New York.

unixguy
August 10, 2005, 12:00 AM
The Albany referenced in the article is Albany, Oregon. BTW, the instructor is the only one facing the ticket now-- the students have all had the charges removed "because they had less culpability" in the event.

Rusher
August 10, 2005, 12:09 AM
I think the arresting police officer should be fired......once he realized this was a class....DUUUUHHHH


sorry I just couldnt resist

boofus
August 10, 2005, 12:18 AM
Doh, I saw Albany-Democrat as the name of the newspaper and figured it was NY. :banghead:

Fletchette
August 10, 2005, 12:22 AM
Gun Control = People Control

The government wants the serfs to be as defenseless as possible.

chopinbloc
August 10, 2005, 12:25 AM
Also, if someone passing by with a concealed weapons permit thought a gun was being pointed at them, it's possible that person could have shot the student without violating the law, Delapoer said.

i'll ASSume they were doing things safely which means eye and face protection for everyone. odds are they were probably wearing stupid karate bathrobes, too. the people at the carwash could easily tell it was a class, so what level of stupidity is required to call the police, or as the quote suggests, SHOOT someone? i don't think the reasonable person clause would cover that one.

AZRickD
August 10, 2005, 12:26 AM
Ooof !

Those letters to the editor were brutal. :neener:

Rick

Art Eatman
August 10, 2005, 12:32 AM
Hmmm. Population 42,280. Not all that big. The newspaper article and the letters show that this school has been operating for some years, with this particular program not being anything new. And the local LEOs didn't know anything about this?

Leaving charges in place against the instructor seems like a case of good old stonewalling, to me. Bluffing, trying to pretend there was a real cause for the brouhaha. Disturbance? What disturbance?

I hope local folks give the mayor a good crawling over this...The kids' parents, I hope, will stay loud and long and raising a ruckus.

Art

Hawkmoon
August 10, 2005, 01:47 AM
There are real crimes being committed on a daily basis. For example, Albany has an improbable amount of meth around because of our poor local economy, yet instead of seeing that these children were under adult supervision in an educational situation and quickly leaving to handle real problems, they searched a 5-year-old girl after pointing their guns at children and then handcuffing them.

Our tax dollars hard at work, proving that we should pay much less in taxes to get our money's worth.
POW!

Joejojoba111
August 10, 2005, 02:11 AM
"Even though the students were using airsoft guns, if one of them had pointed it at police and an officer had shot a student, the shooting would have been justified, Delapoer said."

Also if the officer felt a kid was going to point the gun at him, the shooting would have been justified. Or if the officer thought one of the kids was advancing at him the shooting would have been justified. Or if the officer thought one of the kids was trying to run away from the crime scene the shooting would have been justified. Or if he in any other way was afraid for his safety the shooting would have been justified. To heck with the public and their safety, their safety doesn't matter. Officer safety Officer safety Officer safety! Learn it Live it Love it! NOW RIGHT F'N NOW! pop popopop

I don't blame the officer, he's doing what he's told as he was trained. He may be physically the one doing it, but he was put in that position by bureaucrats and police chief politicians who decided how to train him and told him what to do.

Coronach
August 10, 2005, 04:19 AM
Okay. One moment.

Let's look at that whole quote.

Even though the students were using airsoft guns, if one of them had pointed it at police and an officer had shot a student, the shooting would have been justified, Delapoer said.

Also, if someone passing by with a concealed weapons permit thought a gun was being pointed at them, it's possible that person could have shot the student without violating the law, Delapoer said.I'm sorry, but I completely agree with that. Totally and 100%. Point a gun or a gun-like object at a stranger and they just might shoot you. Add in the fact that this was happening in alley, and a presumption (though a reasonable one) that this might have been an out-of-uniform training session, and you have a recipe for a potentially fatal misunderstanding. Heck. My precinct averages one or two armed robberies from urban youths in alleys per night. TELL ME that if a CCW permit holder had blown away a white belt that we would not be screeching to the heavens that this was not the CCWer's fault. Try to convince me of that. Mind, I've been around here long enough to know better.

Now, the level of reaction to this event might be overblown, or it might not. It depends on what happened. Also, no one was arrested. They were cited. Still possibly erroneously, but it's not like everyone got a ride down to juvie hall.

Me? I'd ask them to take the gun and ninja show back into the dojo. But I wasn't there, and that might have been tried as a first option.


Mike

c_yeager
August 10, 2005, 04:39 AM
I dont really see this as a gun control/bigotry issue. I see this as a more "OMG what you are doing is stupid and it can get you and the students under your care killed". Seriously, role-playing in public with real-looking guns is an excellent way to get yourself shot. Now, in my opinion a person has every right in the world to get themselves shot for being stupid however, the person who shoots them would have to live with that, which is why im A-OK with this idiot getting arrested.

LiquidTension
August 10, 2005, 05:10 AM
I agree that if one of the students had pointed a gun at someone, a shooting would have been justified. However, after it is determined that they did not do this and were in fact training under adult supervision, there is ZERO reason for anyone to be charged with anything.

Joejojoba111
August 10, 2005, 05:19 AM
"Point a gun or a gun-like object at a stranger and they just might shoot you."

This is what the anti's all say will happen when people get CCws. They'll all start shooting everything. One guy will try to stop an armed robbery with his pistol, then another guy will shoot him, and another guy will shoot that guy, and another guy will shoot that guy, and OMG rivers of blood, the humanity.

You initiate a confrontation you initiate it. You, not them. If those kids in the alley approach you and point their toy at you and say, demand your wallet, then that's a different situation.

And it is not reasonable to say that it would be legitimate to shoot any kid that pointed a gun at any time at the officer or others, because for one thing the officer arriving in force with a weapon drawn and making lots of noise just MIGHT cause the role-playing bad-guy to turn towards the officer. Just maybe. Call it a hunch. So then this role playing bad guy is justifiably shot. "Hey look over here. hey *** you're turning towards me?"

With a formula like that it seems there is a disconnect between official policy and actual practice... It happens often, and sometimes it's a cell phone, but it doesn't happen every time because not everyone is stupid enough to shoot without thinking.

Mark in California
August 10, 2005, 05:27 AM
My brother lives in Albany, OR. He told me the Police once surrounded a church because a door was open and they heard people inside. Weapons drawn, they attemped to arrest everyone leaving the church until it was pointed out to them it was Sunday afternoon and Services had just ended.

280PLUS
August 10, 2005, 06:56 AM
I like the one where the girl says she's been studying with those guys for half her life and then you see she's 15...

:p

c_yeager
August 10, 2005, 07:39 AM
Police arrest karate instructor & kids in self defense class

Out of curiosity what is with the "kids" reference? The students in the class ranged from age 17 to 45.

boofus
August 10, 2005, 11:37 AM
17-24 are 'kids' according to brady/vpc. As are 30 year old black males. :rolleyes:

El Tejon
August 10, 2005, 11:57 AM
Mike, well, that explanation may take care of a "what's all this then" investigatory stop. But an arrest? :confused:

Hopefully this will disappear down a hole at the Prosecuting Attorney's Office (or DA or State's Attorney or whatever they call them out there).

Coronach
August 10, 2005, 01:08 PM
Where does anyone get 'arrest' from the article? They were cited. I see no mention of arrest, besides the thread title and subsequent comments.

My guess is that there is more to it than there seems, but I'll freely admit that this is my own past experiences coloring my opinion. I don't know what happened, but this has the flavor of 'more to the story'. Either way, we have, at worst, a group of police that handed out tickets to some people playing with fake guns in an alley.

This is what the anti's all say will happen when people get CCws. They'll all start shooting everything. One guy will try to stop an armed robbery with his pistol, then another guy will shoot him, and another guy will shoot that guy, and another guy will shoot that guy, and OMG rivers of blood, the humanity. Really?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=41832&highlight=shot+pointed+fake+gun

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=147376&highlight=fake+gun

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=145995&highlight=fake+gun

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=144463&highlight=fake+gun

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=27512&highlight=fake+gun

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=16414&highlight=fake+gun

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=130505&highlight=toy+gun

In each of these threads is an assertion (IMHO correct) by a one of your "antis" on THR stating that if someone pointed a fake/toy gun at them and they were CCWing, that person would probably be shot. No mention of robbery. FWIW, I agree.

I'm mostly upset that I cannot find one thread that had several comments like that on it. Perhaps it was on TFL, bit i'm too lazy to go look. My point is this; playing with guns, even fake ones, in public is a bad idea. If you are CCWing and you come upon a group of people in an alley standing around one guy, holding a gun to the head of another, what are you going to think is happening?

I assure you that my first thought is not going to be, "Oh, this is obviously a martial arts class practicing weapon strips." I have no idea if I would shoot someone or not, but it certainly starts to look like a viable option.

Again, was the popo response appropriate? No idea. I wasn't there. But I'm pretty sure the martial artists were not very bright by doing this sort of thing in public.

Mike

scout26
August 10, 2005, 01:22 PM
.....Everybody was Kung-Fu Fighting, those kids were fast as lightening.....


Sing it with me !!!!!

Coronach
August 10, 2005, 01:40 PM
:scrutiny:

I was SO resisting that. ;)

Mike

El Tejon
August 10, 2005, 01:43 PM
Mike, O.K. then, citation (same for me, but understand different for you). I believe the citation was out of line, but citations like this create gun fund and gun skul training money for defense attorneys. :D

insidious_calm
August 10, 2005, 02:36 PM
....law enforcement in America. I'm telling you folks, the best fiction writers couldn't write reality this good. Don't worry though, some statist thug types will be along shortly to defend the indefensible.



I.C.

Byron Quick
August 10, 2005, 05:18 PM
I think the police may have just overreacted a tad here. But I definitely believe that the instructor should have been warned to stop his 'class' and take it to somewhere private and secluded in the future.

But, there is a problem with realistic replica guns. I had a plastic Uzi pulled on me one night by an employee in very low light. As he brought it up, I swept it with my left hand while stepping to the right and drawing. I was bringing my pistol up to fire when I realized that the inertia of the Uzi was way too low and that it was plastic. If I had not made physcial contact with the fake Uzi...I would have gone for slide lock.

I was on friendly terms with the employee but no one will point a weapon at me without a response. I won't give anyone a justifiable reason to do so.

I don't like toy guns that are not obviously toy guns. Playing with them can get you killed by someone who is not playing.

280PLUS
August 10, 2005, 05:20 PM
Lets get it straight, was it "kicks" , "kids" or "CATS" that were fast as lightning???

One of the great mysteries of life I tell ya!

:D

Art Eatman
August 10, 2005, 06:11 PM
Mike, had it been at night, I could understand the concern for all involved, from those making the 911 call to the responding officers.

But the newspaper article said "afternoon". To me, that's broad daylight. Now, I'll make the assumption that at a formal karate class, all are dressed in costume. Built in to the newspaper article and the followup letters is the idea that this is not at all a new event for this dojo.

The total package, assuming that the article is anywhere near correct, says to me that it was serious over-reaction.

I dunno. If I see a bunch of kids in karate costume, at or behind their school in broad daylight, I'm not gonna immediately assume gang war. That just doesn't compute.

Sure, "there may be more to it," but it's not evident from the spate of letters supportive of the dojo and its instructor. No further explanatory material from other sources...

Art

thorn726
August 10, 2005, 06:17 PM
this stuff is happening too often. the airsoft stuff looks so real, after years of conditioning society that toy guns are big crazy colored super soaker type things, suddenly these imitation weapons look too real.

add in police being so nervous all the time, we have these ridiculous laws about playing with guns.

stupid gang kids are the blame here, and sadly we all take the hit because the cops HAVE to be nervous. they can't be sure it isnt real.

it would be nice if at least like several airsoft games that have ended in police= the players should warn neighbors, same with the class= or at least use a brgihtly colored weapn so it looks fake.
but at the same time= the people in sacramento for example who call cops because they see an large invasion of teens with guns- i tend to think five seconds of extra looknig at these kids, they would have figrued out it was a game.
people are a little too nervous.

Joejojoba111
August 10, 2005, 06:34 PM
"In each of these threads is an assertion (IMHO correct) by a one of your "antis" on THR stating that if someone pointed a fake/toy gun at them and they were CCWing, that person would probably be shot. No mention of robbery. FWIW, I agree.

I'm mostly upset that I cannot find one thread that had several comments like that on it."

There is a big difference between someone running up to you and pointing a gun at you, and a group of people doing their own thing and YOU running up and pointing a gun at them. If only I had L337 hacker skills I could use slashdot language to draw a picture. Alas, I do not, so I will re-iterate. In one case, the case the thread is about and I clearly mentioned, some people are minding their own business and YOU assault them. In the other case, which I clearly described as NOT being what this thread was about, someone with a toy gun assaults you. You on them, them on you. It's really a waste of time to have to defend against an argument that I never even made, nay that I clearly espoused against making. If you keep up with this 'Someone ran up and pointed a toy gun at me' notion I'm going to have to assume you are being deliberately obtuse. Sorry, but that's just how I read it.

And btw, for kicks, the thread where several people agreed they would shoot a kid with a toy gun was not about airsoft, but NERF.

GunGoBoom
August 10, 2005, 06:35 PM
and you have a recipe for a potentially fatal misunderstanding.

YES. But it STILL doesn't amount to 'disturbing the peace' in my view. Having said that, it WOULD be a good idea to paint the gun red in the future. They should NOT have to notify police each and every time they have a class, because it is pretty obvious what is going on from the totality of the circumstances - absurd!

KriegHund
August 10, 2005, 06:39 PM
Its "Those cats..." Apperently. (http://www.lyricsondemand.com/onehitwonders/kungfufightinglyrics.html)

Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
But they fought with expert timing

They were funky China men from funky Chinatown
They were chopping them up and they were chopping them down
It's an ancient Chineese art and everybody knew their part
From a feint into a slip, and kicking from the hip

Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
But they fought with expert timing

There was funky Billy Chin and little Sammy Chung
He said here comes the big boss, lets get it on
We took a bow and made a stand, started swinging with the hand
The sudden motion made me skip now we're into a brand knew trip

Everybody was kung-fu fighting
Those cats were fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit frightning
But they did it with expert timing

(repeat)..make sure you have expert timing
Kung-fu fighting, had to be fast as lightning

Randy in Arizona
August 10, 2005, 07:20 PM
To the Albany, Oregon Police Department Administration, Trainers, and officers involved in this incident:
Here's your sign! (http://www.mistupid.com/people/page013.htm)
(It's a link!)

KriegHund
August 10, 2005, 07:26 PM
LOL!

I remember someone did that on comedy central, jeff foxworthy i think...

Coronach
August 10, 2005, 08:56 PM
YES. But it STILL doesn't amount to 'disturbing the peace' in my view. Having said that, it WOULD be a good idea to paint the gun red in the future. They should NOT have to notify police each and every time they have a class, because it is pretty obvious what is going on from the totality of the circumstances - absurd!You were there?

The whole point is that we (the readers) don't know what "the totality of the circumstances" was. All we know is that we had a bunch of people in an alley playing with airsoft guns. This could range from:

A. A bunch of scruffy looking numbskulls in an alley yelling and fighting and waving around a perfectly crafted replica weapon, which to any reasonable passing observer looked exactly like a robbery, and upon arrival of the Popo immediately became argumentative and confronational and refused to desist, thus prompting the citations just to get them to stop making a scene and blocking a public street

to

B. A well disciplined group of clean-cut young gentlemen in pressed gis standing at attention and taking turns doing clearly stylized weapon disarms in the rear parking lot of a clearly marked martial arts school, who were immediately polite and respectful to the nice cops, and were puzzled at why they were given tickets

and all points in between.

Which was it? No clue. We all want to assume that it more closely resembled the latter, but there is really not any basis for doing so that I have seen thus far. Indeed, if anything, the fact that they were cited should lead an impartial observer to think that maybe it resembled the former a weebit more than the latter example. Thinking that the cops are automatically wrong does, however, fit our stereotype of just imagining the police rolling around looking for some fun to kill. ;)

I'll be up front about wondering why they (especially the students) were cited, but I have a strong suspicion (a personal bias, I will admit) that there's a bit more to this story. But I'll refrain from passing judgment either way until I have more facts.

But the newspaper article said "afternoon". To me, that's broad daylight.We get plenty of armed robberies in daylight, too. You're more likely to find a taxpayer with something to steal in the day. ;)The total package, assuming that the article is anywhere near correct, says to me that it was serious over-reaction.

I dunno. If I see a bunch of kids in karate costume, at or behind their school in broad daylight, I'm not gonna immediately assume gang war. That just doesn't compute.I agree, that doesn't compute. However, you're trading one assumption for another:

A. The cop was a bonehead, and it looked like a karate class.
B. The cop was spot-on, and it didn't look like a karate class.

Really, that only explains the primary response, though. Once you have sorted it through, determined that this is, in fact, a class...why proceed with the cite? I'm interested to hear that side of it.

Also, if you get anything at all from my posts about my experience as an officer, get this: The article has it wrong. Not necessarily this article, I mean in general. Whatever version of events you are reading online, in print, or watching on TV, is critically flawed in at least one (probably several) way(s). This goes double for the first run-through in the media of any given event.

Mike

Coronach
August 10, 2005, 09:38 PM
There is a big difference between someone running up to you and pointing a gun at you, and a group of people doing their own thing and YOU running up and pointing a gun at them. If only I had L337 hacker skills I could use slashdot language to draw a picture. Alas, I do not, so I will re-iterate. In one case, the case the thread is about and I clearly mentioned, some people are minding their own business and YOU assault them. In the other case, which I clearly described as NOT being what this thread was about, someone with a toy gun assaults you. You on them, them on you. It's really a waste of time to have to defend against an argument that I never even made, nay that I clearly espoused against making. If you keep up with this 'Someone ran up and pointed a toy gun at me' notion I'm going to have to assume you are being deliberately obtuse. Sorry, but that's just how I read it.I think we need to go back to the original quote one more time.Even though the students were using airsoft guns, if one of them had pointed it at police and an officer had shot a student, the shooting would have been justified, Delapoer said.

Also, if someone passing by with a concealed weapons permit thought a gun was being pointed at them, it's possible that person could have shot the student without violating the law, Delapoer said.Well, seeing as how we were, in fact, discussing a hypothetical scenario where a CCWing passerby thinks he has a gun pointed at him by one of a group of people in an alley (read: "someone ... pointing a gun at you"), I would say it is you who is being deliberately obtuse by trying to turn the conversation to some other scenario. The point that the PD spokesman was trying to make was that someone (cop, citizen) wandering by might be muzzle-swept or inadvertantly pointed at and take potentially fatal offense. You said that was pure Anti hogwash. I provided statements from decidedly non-antis that it was not hogwash (statements with which I pretty much agree, BTW), but a rather real concern.

yes, the "running up to" part is absent, but also not really required to reach the potentially fatal nexus of method/threat/opportunity.

Mike

c_yeager
August 11, 2005, 04:23 AM
Now, I'll make the assumption that at a formal karate class, all are dressed in costume.

Thats a pretty broad assumption considering that formal Karate has NO provision for firearms whatsoever, and that the training they were conducting included more than one.

Its far more likely that it was a Krav Maga class, which according to KravMaga.com, is taught at the facility in question. (Turner's Taekwondo Inc.)This discipline makes extensive use of firearms, and as far as i know, the industry standard is to use the "red guns" that are typically used by law enforcement training. This is for good reason since the firearms are utilized as bludgeons, and airsoft replicas could easily be broken by such use. More to the point, its a lot less likely for the cops to show up when your training with bright red guns made of rubber.

http://www.kravmaga.com/oregon.asp

I dont think that there is any uniform that goes with Krav Maga, in fact i think street clothes is the normal atire.

Joejojoba111
August 11, 2005, 06:33 AM
I give, time short, no argue.

Byron Quick
August 11, 2005, 06:55 AM
I'll go with Coronach until we know more. It sounds like the cops overreacted thus far. But we all know how reporters are.

That said, anyone who takes realistic replica guns into a public setting needs to have their 'stupid' signs prominently displayed.

I'm not a cop. If you point one at me; I'll shoot you. I won't yell,"Is that a real gun." I'll apologize profusely once I find out that it was Airsoft. That might not do you a whole lot of good.

Coronach
August 11, 2005, 07:25 AM
To reiterate, I'm leaning towards the side of "was it really necessary to cite them?" as well. I'm just not 1. convinced and 2. thinking that even if it wasn't really needed that this is an act of complete stupidity on the cops' part. Playing with look-alike guns in public is not terribly swift, so there might be stupidity enough to go around.

Mike

ctdonath
August 11, 2005, 08:13 PM
I'm thinking it was an overreaction, but not by much. The group was OUTSIDE the dojo, performing relatively violent maneuvers with (at a quick uninformed glance) apparently deadly weapons. We know it was (to us) obviously Airsoft toys, handled by (assuming in-costume) (to us) obviously in-training people, and (to us) obviously not a problem ... actually a "hey, can I join in?" kind of fun. Unfortunately, most of the population is so ignorant and spooked of such things, especially when going on in an alley (refuge of violent acts), that a cop should at least check it out and suggest they take it back to the dojo. At most there should be a stern "don't scare the sheeple" warning. Arrest & charges are too far.

Joejojoba111
August 11, 2005, 11:04 PM
Umm what about the whole "no crime committed but they're not allowed to do it anyway because the Grand-Poohba says so" issue?

Ignoring the other issues for sake of simplicity, is this not significant alone?

If stuff like this happens, and no SEVERE measures are taken, then it will happen and happen some more and happen even more. It's like any other substance abuse problem, it starts out controlled, and then escalates until it is beyond complete recovery. First one completely legal activity becomes 'disturbance' and then another, and before you can say 'supercalafragilist-' you question every tiny action you do, things that used to be insignificant, for fear that any number of watching eyes could 'report you'.

There's two agents, the 'loyal citizens' and the dutiful police, the first are to be expected, the second need to be reminded to whom their duty lies - oh wait, it lies to the legislators who happen to cater to the 'loyal citizens'. Great.

I for one am against the 'they'll report you' constant state of fear type of existence, it doesn't sound fun to me. And it is going beyond common courtesy and consideration for others.

10 year olds playing with cap guns in the park - 'Comrade Sniktchov' reports them.
20 year olds practicing martial arts with replica weapons - 'Comrade Snitchkov' reports them.
30 year olds shooting varmints with a permit on their property - 'Comrade Snitchkov' reports them.
40 year olds growing small marijuana plants in their basements - 'Comrade Snitchkov' reports them.
Too many people gathered on a street corner for too long - 'Comrade Snitchkov' reports them.

(in no particular order)

And through it all a loving government croons and caresses their best citizens, who hand more power to enforce more laws requiring more resources in an endless cycle.

When things like the article happen it makes me angry, probably not in a focused way. It's just that it indicates yet another progression towards the absolute worst type of society to live in.

dpesec
August 12, 2005, 12:03 AM
stupidity isn't a crime. Actually it's a good line on a politician's resume.

Art Eatman
August 12, 2005, 02:46 AM
Joejo, I'd see it as no more than common courtesy to the communty at large if the replica guns were painted red, or some such easily-told way of distinguishing them from the real thing. It would be along the same line for the instructor(s) to have a few portable signs of "Martial Arts Classes In Session" or some such...

Look: When I go out at night varmint hunting, I don't mind calling our local deputy so he can ease folks' minds if they call in, thinking that poaching is going on. Common courtesy.

Same deal for the dojo and the local cops: Inform them of the usual schedule of outdoor training. Common courtesy.

Art

Coronach
August 12, 2005, 08:35 AM
Umm what about the whole "no crime committed but they're not allowed to do it anyway because the Grand-Poohba says so" issue?Well, they were charged with a crime. So at least one person who was there, and knows more than we do, thinks there was probable cause to believe that a crime was committed. Let's see how this shakes out. I'm curious, too.

Mike

tetchaje1
August 12, 2005, 10:49 AM
But, there is a problem with realistic replica guns. I had a plastic Uzi pulled on me one night by an employee in very low light. As he brought it up, I swept it with my left hand while stepping to the right and drawing. I was bringing my pistol up to fire when I realized that the inertia of the Uzi was way too low and that it was plastic. If I had not made physcial contact with the fake Uzi...I would have gone for slide lock.


What did your employee do? Did you have to escort him to the John so he could scrape the brown spot out of his shorts? :evil:

If anything, I'm sure he learned a lesson about pulling (fake) guns on people.

RocketMan
August 13, 2005, 02:14 AM
I have to live here in Albany. :o
It's not a bad little town, actually, but there are lots of sirens at night...

Byron Quick
August 13, 2005, 06:12 AM
What did your employee do? Did you have to escort him to the John so he could scrape the brown spot out of his shorts?

Well, Hammerhead (nicknamed by his own father for his hard headedness), froze up and gurgled. He was trying to scream and talk at the same time. Couldn't do it. It was only about a second for the whole thing. By the time he really realized I was about to shoot him...I'd realized the Uzi was a fake. Darn fool knew I was armed, too. I let him take care of his personal hygiene on his own.

I've got a good friend that needs a stupid sign for junk like that. He likes to creep into hunt camp past midnight, jump into the cabin, and scream like a banshee or some such. I've warned him that the night that I fail to recognize him is the night that I shoot him multiple times. He keeps on doing it. :rolleyes:

artherd
August 13, 2005, 06:41 AM
Um, guys, they were doing this OUTSIDE?!?!?!

6mm of orange on the tip (if not painted over) is REALLY hard to see!

The teacher is having his students doing some very very very stupid, and potentially very dangerous things.

Ideally this would be the solution:
Officer: "Hey, you know, even practice gunplay out in the open ain't too bright, somebody could mix things up and get hurt."
Trainer: "You know you're absolutely right, but we can't afford a dojo"
Officer: "How about you move the class to the station's multi-use room?"
Trainer: "Kickass, and I could teach a weekly self-defense class for adults too!"

Firethorn
August 13, 2005, 08:07 AM
Except they were doing it right behind their Dojo.

I kinda agree. $15 will get you some nifty pastboard signs that state something along the lines of "WARNING: SELF DEFENSE CLASS IN PROGRESS, FAKE FIREARMS IN USE". Heck, it can even be advertising.

Paint the fake guns red or something.

MikeIsaj
August 13, 2005, 10:33 AM
Took Karate classes, for years. Never once went "out back" to train, that's what the dojo is for. People don't get confused or scared when these things are seen inside the school.

It was a stupid thing to do. Glad the students were cleared. The instructor should pay the fine and call it tuition in the school of common sense.

Firethorn
August 13, 2005, 12:00 PM
They weren't conducting a Karate class. They were conducting a practical self defense class. The alley was being used as a big prop, and they've been doing it for years.

Besides, it's nice to change up locations every once in a while, isn't it?

Especially since all it'd take to avoid panicking somebody would be a couple signs.

Joejojoba111
August 13, 2005, 04:30 PM
Also took classes for years and several times went outside.

And I wonder how many people advisign signs are also posting in threads about how they refuse to buy Rugers because of the billboard on the barrel, or how they hate the lawsuit-loving aspect of societ.

ANY time your freedom is curtailed it is just that.

And to me the threat that we could very easily be shot and killed because someone can't mind their own business IS unnerving. And it would be justifiable!

So lesson learned, if you want to be free just don't do it in public. You might scare someone and they'll end up killing you or telling an officer to kill you. Because they were afraid. You have to die. They're scared, you die. Enjoy life otherwise though!


And who the F honesty believes this BS about 'if the gun was red the police wouldn't have minded.' I call BS. If officers are Genuinely afraid for their safety then they don't know the red pistol is fake. So BS. If it is not a crime for me to dare you, then I would dare anyone of you to pull a red pistol on an officer . It's red, he'll leave you alone right? Your words, not mine.

what this looks like is that it is turning into a new way of life. Bright, shiny, brand spanking new. The NEW way of life if that you CANNOT do anything with anythign RESEMBLING a firearm in PUBLIC EVER, or the result, the horrible confused fragic result, completely unavoidable result, completely unforseen result, will be YOU getting your ass killed. Every time, 3 times 300 times 3 thousand times, until not the "law" changes, but the citizens change and give in, and it becomes a de facto law that anything resembling a firearm not be present in public. You never even need to write a new law down, just start arresting people and killing them and they'll get the message.

Prove me wrong, of you can look up a thread on this forum about 'nerf wars' where the police have banned the extra-curricular activity of children because they are using 'guns'.

Joejojoba111
August 13, 2005, 04:34 PM
PS want a suggestion? Cut people off from TV and movies. When it has gotten to the point where people think 'hollywood gunfight!' instead of 'kids playing', though several thousand years of humanity will support the 'kids playing' assertion, then you have watched FAR too much TV for your own good, and you are making it my problem. You are changing society because of your Irrational fears garnered from a freaking entertainment medium.

Art Eatman
August 13, 2005, 08:23 PM
Joejo, relax. You're seriously twisting and exaggerating what many folks are saying. I think several folks here have offered suggestions for ways to avoid a repeat of this deal, without any curtailment of anybody's rights.

It seems to me that when stuff like this happens, the deal is to figure out how to avoid a repeat. Learn from mistakes, all that. That's hard to do when folks get on their high horse and go to yelling and bellowing.

Art

Joejojoba111
August 13, 2005, 09:06 PM
There is no solution presented, if people all carry around signs when playing police can't believe them because a criminal could be carrying one too.

It's called proving a negative.

The threat is that one has to prove they are not a threat, when they are minding their own business. THAT's the problem, the core issue. And it requires proving a negative, which is impossible.

I was angry and irrational, sorry if anyone offended but I think that last paragraph is calm and deliberate, and the logic unassailable.

And I don't even want to think about the ramifications of this logic on all other aspects of society, I want to go enjoy my meal.

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