[gburner]

As a group, we get our knickers in a twist debating whether this war is about oil, regional hegemony, American Imperialism, Bush's 'revenge', or the attempts to pre-empt another grotesque atrocity re: 9/11. Today, I discovered the real reason.

After the gloomiest of winters, I awoke to sunshine and warm weather. I was able to enjoy it...the simplest of things. I didn't have to worry about my children starving or not getting medical care. I didn't have to worry that my neighbors were reporting my every move to the secret police. I didn't have to worry about a government that uses rape, torture or execution as methods of social coersion. I didn't have to worry about my family disappearing without a trace because their beliefs may be at odds with the power elite. There is so much more.

We are in the unique position to free the Iraqi people from these horrors and so many others. While thousands flood the streets worldwide questioning our means and motives, millions of Iraqis
silently pray for their day of salvation to be at hand. Regardless of your political persuation, you have to be proud that we as a nation have found the moral fortitude to attempt this great endeavor. If I had the misfortune to live in Iraq during these times, my knees would be scraped bare in supplication to a merciful creator that a savior would come to relieve me of the horror of my day to day existence.

We are that savior and that day is close at hand. May we have the courage to see it through.

[Blackhawk]

gburner has got it! :D

[El Tejon]

We fight now so our children do not have to later and at a higher price. As well, we fight there, instead of here.

See sig line.

[Chaz]

Amen, Brother.

[Chris Rhines]

I might be more disposed to go out and bring freedom to the Iraqi people if I had more of it myself...

- Chris

[MLH]

If you can find a country with more freedom you are free to move which is more than you can say about most countries. I don't see anybody from here or other countries clamoring to get into Iraq or Mexico or Russia, etc. They all want to come here. Wonder why that is?

[cheygriz]

In my humble opinion, the U.S. driving of sodom insane from power is a righteous cause. Even Jesus got angry, and took direct action, at some things.

HE (Jesus) drove the money changers from the temple. Perhaps this isn't a direct analogy, but it's close.

We, the USA are doing the right thing for the right reasons.



**********GOD BLESS AMERICA**********

[Chris Rhines]

MLH -

Was that a joke? If so, forgive me for taking it seriously.

I have considered moving to a foreign country in the past (I was looking real hard at Costa Rica,) but I doubt that I'll do it. At best, it would present a temporary solution. I'd much rather encourage all of the statists who dislike individual liberty to move to foreign countries where they can steal from and kill each other in peace.

- Chris

[cheygriz]

Chris,

This country isn't perfect by a long shot. No argument there.

However, even though I agree with most of your posts, I think you're a bit wide of the mark here.

No one will ever achieve perfection in this life. I truly believe that we should take the best country in the world, the USA, and regardless of it's many obvious flaws, work hard to make it better, insread of concentrating on criticism.

It's easy to bad-mouth anything that isn't perfect. We all do it! But let's not forget the wisdom of Winston Churchill:

"Democracy is a very poor form of government, but never forget that all of the others are much worse."

[gburner]

Direct flghts leave hourly to any destination on the globe. All it takes to go is funding and the courage of your convictions. Talk is cheap.

[Chris Rhines]

gburner -

As I said, fleeing tyranny is a temporary solution. I'd rather the tyrannts flee from me. Especally the ones occupying the government that I have the misfortune to live under. Heck, my entire life's goal is to be left alone by statist busybodies and tax collectors. Why should I have to live in Belize to enjoy my rights as a sapient human being?

cheygriz -

Although I agree with the gegeral thrust of your comment, I have to take issue with your Churchill quote. Democracy (the tyranny of the majority) is among the worst forms of a sick institution, as has been found out by those unlucky enough to live under it. Revolutionary France, for instance.

- Chris

[cheygriz]

Chris,

With all due respect to your right to your opinion, can you suggest a better alternative? I am always open to the idea of something better, as long as it really is better.

And I definitely think that our constitutional representative democracy is far superior to the unrestrained pure democracy of revolutionary France.

[Chris Rhines]

cheygriz - I can, and I will if you PM me (or start a new thread.) I'm making a concerted effort not to hijack threads... :D

- Chris

[gburner]

sapient: wise, knowing, sage, sagacious.
As in Homo Sapiens or 'knowing man'.

This alleged wisdom is not reflected in your post if a: you expect government, tyrannical or otherwise, to flee from you. b: you believe that, for all of our inequities and inconsistencies, there is a better form of government in practice on the face of the earth. c: you think that the freedoms that we embrace in this country are not worthy of the aspiraions of folks less fortunate than us around the world. Given the other options available, I don't understand how you can possibly consider living in this country, under our form of government, a misfortune.

When is the last time that you and yours had to pick thru the rubbish at the dump for buildng materials or beg for money or dumpster dive for your next meal or get arrested by the secret police for expressing your disdain for the form of government you live under. I see no wisdom there.

[Blackhawk]

gburner, remember that Chris is just 25. He apparently hasn't begun to get dumber yet after his epiphany of realizing that he knew everything at 16 like the rest of us did. Give him more time, and he'll begin to realize that he doesn't know everything just like the rest of us do as we get older.

[Coronach]

Ahem.

Mike

[pax]

When is the last time that you and yours had to pick thru the rubbish at the dump for buildng materials or beg for money or dumpster dive for your next meal or get arrested by the secret police for expressing your disdain for the form of government you live under.
At this moment, there are a number of American citizens who are being held in American prisons without a trial, without bail, without any sort of public accounting and without access to a lawyer.

But it's all okay. It's nothing to worry about. After all, we are at war and we must all make sacrifices for peace and security. And the seriousness of the charges absolutely precludes the need to worry about outdated things like "innocent until proven guilty" or open trials or stuff like that.

</heavy sarcasm>

pax

I miss the serenity of believing I lived under a good government, wisely designed and benevolent in its operation. But, as St. Paul says, there comes a time to put away childish things. -- Joseph Sobran

[Bainx]

And, if Patriot II goes thru, what Pax describes will become "routine".

[Blackhawk]

At this moment, there are a number of American citizens who are being held in American prisons without a trial, without bail, without any sort of public accounting and without access to a lawyer.What are their names (or some of them)?

[El Tejon]

pax, American citizens???:confused:

[buzz_knox]

Only one that I know of. Jose Padilla, although it is an arguable point that he is no longer a citizen after taking up membership in a foreign organization who is dedicated to violent assaults against the United States, and who remained in said organization after such assaults were carried out.

[Blackhawk]

Wasn't a writ of habeas corpus filed on behalf of Jose Padilla, and the government's position on his detainment upheld?

[cheygriz]

pax,

I will re-iterate, the time for that kind of discussion will be when the war is over. Until then, Republican or democrat, liberal or conservative, we're all Americans! ( or damn well SHOULD be)

[Justin]

If you can find a country with more freedom you are free to move which is more than you can say about most countries. Lemme get something off of my chest. I'm sick and freaking tired of hearing people say that if you don't like the way the American gov't works, take a hike. As far as I'm concerned, that's a sign of an inactive mind and a sloppy thinker. Is America the most free and financially stable country in the world? Yes. For now. But being the healthiest patient in the terminal cancer ward doesn't mean squat as far as I'm concerned. So if your retort involves any incarnation of 'if you don't like it, leave' don't even bother chiming in on the discussion.:fire:

[Justin]

Wasn't a writ of habeas corpus filed on behalf of Jose Padilla, and the government's position on his detainment upheld? How about that fellow whose been held in St. Louis for quite some time. You know, the one who they won't even let onto the stand without a shot full of Thorazine?

[Justin]

gburner, remember that Chris is just 25. He apparently hasn't begun to get dumber yet after his epiphany of realizing that he knew everything at 16 like the rest of us did. Give him more time, and he'll begin to realize that he doesn't know everything just like the rest of us do as we get older. To cast aspersions on a person simply due to their age is a poor form of ad hominem attack. How would you like it if instead of debating your points I simply resorted to calling you a senile old coot?
Chris is a good friend of mine, and I have never known him to make a stand on something without putting a lot of forethought into it (sometimes excessively so!) There are a lot of issues that he and I don't see eye-to-eye on, but to chalk his beliefs up to youthful impertinence is, IMHO, insulting.

[cheygriz]

Justin,

With all due respect, I think you may have missed the point. I do not believe that it was an ad hominen attack.

I am 59 years old. Perhaps I am wiser than I was at 25, perhaps not, but I certainly have more experience, and I look at things in a different light and through a different filter because of that experience.

20 years of wearing a badge, four years of wearing a military uniform, raising children, holding political office, and myriad other experiences have caused most of my opinions to change over the years.

I tihnk the point is that Chris will change many of his opinions as the years pass. This is not a criticism of him. It is obvious from his posts that he does indeed put much thought into his posts. But experience will change him, as it does all of us!

[gburner]

Pax,

I'm not going to debate your assertion that 'a number' of Ameicans are held without bail blah, blah, blah because without supporting documentation, it's just an emotional strawman.

The real point is that the ruling elite
in Iraq behaves in this fashion on a daily basis and uses these systematic, systemic abuses to cow and terrorize the general public. You can't possibly equate the draconian use of inhuman punishments which are totally outside of the rule of law and human rights with the legally reviewed and sanctioned incarceration of terrorists that are a real threat to American people. We are not putting prisoners through plastic shredders, we are not forcing families to witness the gang rape of mothers and daughters, we do not cut the tongues out of the heads of dissenters and handcuff
them to a lightpost in public to bleed to death as an example. We do not shoot our military captives in the head and display the corpses as war trophies, we don't take international aid that is meant for food and medicine for children and spend it on lavish palaces and forbidden armaments, we don't use poison gas on sections of our population who happen to aspire to live a better life...Is that enough or would you like to continue with this lesson in moral relativism?

Justin,

Pack your bags. If you think of this country as a terminal cancer patient then all the whining that you're doing is completely self aggrandizing. No amount of debate, intellegent or not, will save a terminal patient. No need for any of us to stick around.

[Blackhawk]

How about that fellow whose been held in St. Louis for quite some time. You know, the one who they won't even let onto the stand without a shot full of Thorazine?What's his name? It's hard to check things out without somthing to hang the query on. :D

[Blackhawk]

To cast aspersions on a person simply due to their age is a poor form of ad hominem attack. How would you like it if instead of debating your points I simply resorted to calling you a senile old coot?
Chris is a good friend of mine, and I have never known him to make a stand on something without putting a lot of forethought into it (sometimes excessively so!) There are a lot of issues that he and I don't see eye-to-eye on, but to chalk his beliefs up to youthful impertinence is, IMHO, insulting.Your opinion is wrong. No aspersions were cast. I agree that Chris puts a lot of thought into what he posts.

However, let me refer you to the U.S. Constitution, Article I Section 2 (minimum age for a Representative is 25). Then Article I, Section 3 (minimum age for a Senator is 30). Then Article II, Section 1 (minimum age for the President is 35).

Do you know why those age restrictions are in there? I didn't either when studying it in high school. So I asked. The appeasement answer (as I viewed it at the time) was that the older you get the wiser you become because of the experiences you have to survive. Pishtwaddle (hey, it goes through the filter), I thought (being 17 and blessed with infallible universal knowledge)!

Sometime after I passed up 30, I noticed that my outlook was different on a lot of things. I had done a lot of things, but that wasn't the cause. The world and people look a lot different when you're on the other side of 30 or so.

That was nothing new. Those old dead guys we call the Founding Fathers knew it, and finally, so did I.

That's no aspersion I wrote about Chris. It's the truth. Live with it.

[Chris Rhines]

This is what I get for checking the board only once a day. Sigh.

In order:

gburner - You mischaracterized my argument in a number of places.

- I never said, nor implied that I expect government to "flee from me." (Although were it to happen, I would be a very happy person.)
- "Better" is a subjective term, but keeping that in mind I can conclusively prove that such a government exists now, today, on this Earth. Whether you or I would have a better life under such a government is another question. (I'm composing more on this subject for cheygriz, I'll send you a copy if you like.)
- I have always been of the opinion that all sapient (as in "capable of rational thought") human beings have the inalienable right to life, liberty, and property. However, I have neither the desire nor the ability to enforce such freedoms upon other people at gunpoint, especally when I cannot fully enjoy them myself. Maybe when I'm an old, disgustingly wealthy anarchocapitalist robber-barron...

And to answer your questions: a.) last year, b.) last Wedensday, c.) haven't reached that point yet, and d.) I'm a political radical and a gun owner. I give myself five years, maybe ten at the outside.

Blackhawk - At age 16, I was an enthusiastic pro-war Republican. Eight years later (I'm actually 24, send me a card on June 23) I'm an enthusiastic anti-government libertarian capitalist. I wouldn't place any bets on what the future holds for my sociopolitical views...

That said, I don't know of many ex-libertarians of any age.

cheygriz - You'll be getting a nice big PM here shortly.

That said, I see no reason whatsoever to confine discussions of the relative merits of the USG to peacetime. In particular, a discussion of the many ways in which a foreign war will infringe upon our domestic liberties is, if anything, more appropriate now.

Justin, Pax - Group hug!!! :D

- Chris

[longeyes]

This is about more than freedom versus tyranny. The things that make possible our way of life are built on a series of cultural "bricks" that we would do well to explore, cultivate, and protect. Nations that are free and prosperous have certain things in common, most imporantly a cultural belief system that permits the rule of law, the advance of science and technology, assumptions about essential human rights. This is by no means universal, though in this time of tolerating the intolerant you wouldn't know that.

[Khornet]

My middle name is Ramirez. Believe me when I tell you don't move to Costa Rica. Lovely place to visit, very high literacy, high voter participation, but very bad crime rate and civil rights there aren't what you're used to here. They have become progressively more socialist since the 1970s. You wouldn't be happy.