Tim Kaine and the Gun Show Loophole


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countertop
August 12, 2005, 03:24 AM
Raising Kaine posted this dumb entry (http://www.raisingkaine.com/blog/?p=619) yesterday. Why not head over and leave a comment or two.

Gun rights for violent criminals?

Jerry Kilgore would like you to think that Tim Kaine will take away your guns. This is about as likely as Tim Kaine taking away your goggles. How does the concept that Tim Kaine might support background checks at gun shows or the mere idea that he may not support laws that protect negligent gun dealers who might be sued for selling guns to criminals, turn into “no guns for anyone”?

While Jerry Kilgore brags about his ‘A’ rating from the NRA, we must consider some of the policies the NRA supports. You would think that the NRA simply wants to protect law-abiding gun owners who want to collect as many guns as they want to use for sport or home protection – and you’d be wrong.

In fact, the NRA agrees that unlicensed gun dealers should be allowed to sell guns to anyone they want without a background check at gun shows, which means they aren’t concerned if violent criminals or terrorists purchase guns from people who aren’t supposed to be selling them in the first place!

Furthermore, the NRA has proposed state-level legislation eliminating police databases that track firearm purchases in several states. So not only does the NRA (for whom Jerry Kilgore is a proud supporter) think criminals should be allowed to purchase guns, they don’t want anybody to know about it either.

I actually voiced these concerns to a conservative gun supporter and all he said was that it was already a felony for people convicted of violent crime to possess guns. Great, so it’s illegal for them to have the guns, but not illegal for someone to sell them the guns. It seems to me that when you sell firearms to a suspected terrorist or a violent criminal, some people might call you something like, I don’t know, an accomplice!

I once even heard some gun-rights advocates explain that it doesn’t matter if we do background checks to catch suspected terrorists who attempt to purchase firearms, because terrorists prefer to use bombs instead. Is that really the best excuse they can come up with?

Frankly, the concept that preventing the sale of guns to criminals or terrorists at gun shows, or that making gun dealers liable for negligence, threatens the gun rights of the average citizen seems to me to be compost fecal matter. In several cases, law enforcement officials were the ones who brought up the lawsuits on negligent gun dealers and distributors, and not rabid gun-control nuts. How can a former State Attorney General like Jerry Kilgore claim to be tough on crime when he doesn’t even support keeping guns out of the hands of people with a violent criminal record, or the ability of law enforcement officials to do anything about negligent gun dealers?

According to the U.S. Department of Justice*, Clinton’s so-called “crazy” gun laws dramatically reduced firearms deaths in the United States, from a high of nearly 40,000 in 1993 to a low of just over 28,600 in 2000 and homicides with firearms dropped by an amazing 38% by the time Clinton left office. All of this was accomplished without taking away the right to bear arms, and with the similar kind of sensible gun laws supported by Tim Kaine.

This is not an issue of gun rights, it’s an issue of criminal justice. Democrats like Time Kaine are tough on crime, not soft on guns for criminals. Gun-rights supporters like Jerry Kilgore seem to think that any measure to prevent criminal gun possession is a slippery slope into taking guns away from law-abiding citizen and threatening their 2nd Amendment rights. But most Democrats, like Tim Kaine, believe there is an appropriate line in the sand where the rights of gun owners are protected, while the right of criminals to own guns are not. The NRA is supposed to help policymakers draw that line, not erase it completely.

*Source – U.S. Department of Justice
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/frmdth.htm
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/guncrime.htm
Thankfully with increased security measures, rates of gun violence have remained stable or increased only slightly since Bush took office. It remains to be seen what effect the lift on the assault weapons ban, the protection for negligent gun dealers, and the reversal of effective gun-control laws might have on these figures in the future.

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countertop
August 12, 2005, 03:25 AM
This was the comment I posted.
There is no gun show loophole. Its another lie, brought to you by the Sarah Brady, Teddy Kennedy, and the Commie Mommies.

There is no such thing as an unlicensed firearms dealer. You are either an FFL holder or you are not. You either sell firearms for profit or you do not. If you do, you better have an FFL or your gonna be spending a lot of time with the bootie bandit. If you don’t, then you are not eligible to receive an FFL.

If you are a firearms dealer you are required to conduct the background check wherever you sell a gun - be it in a store, in your home, or at a gun show.

What you are seeking to do when you harp on and on about closing the gun show loophole is actually regulating private sellers looking to maximize the return on an investment, or simply not to loose their shirt.

Let me give you an example of how the real world works, since you gun banning Democrats seem to have left it long ago.

The last new gun I purchased cost me over $700 (lets kill another myth right here, guns are EXPENSIVE!!! You people - and Tim Kaine is responsible for this - managed to generally price the poor people living in areas where they have a real need for self protection - out of the market by eliminating cheap guns). If I wish to get rid of it I have a few options.

First, I can sell it to a dealer who will pay me $300 for it and then turn around and resell it (after conducting a background check) for $600 (Though expensive, guns retain a surprising part of their value).

Second, I can sell it to a pawn shop who will pay me $100 for it and then turn around and resell it (after conducting a background check) for $600.

Third, I can turn it in at a gun buy back event to Tim Kaine and the Richmond Police Department or Sarah Brady and the Commie Mommies for $50 in donated Target Gift Cards (which don’t allow change to be given back, and lose their value if I don’t use them within a year). Tim Kain and the Richmond Police or Sarah Brady and the Commie Mommies will then turn around and sell my $700 gun to a gun dealer for $300 (using that profit to further erode my civil rights - they only melt down the worthless guns). The gun dealer will then resell it (after conducting a background check) for $600 (sometimes they sell it to national distributors who simply act as a middle man between Tim Kain and the Richmond Police or Sarah Brady and the Commie Mommies and the eventual gun seller).

Finally, I can sell it privately for $500-$600 by posting an ad in the paper (but only where Sarah Brady and the Commie Mommies haven’t shut that avenue down); posting a notice at a gun range or on the internet; selling it to a friend; or going to a gun show where I can meet potential buyers.

As a private citizen, I am not a gun dealer let alone an “unlicensed gun dealer”, in fact I am not eligible to become a gun dealer unless I have the intent to actually engage in the business and then do so once granted my license. Yet, for some reason, you want to restrict my rights (through making gun ownership unaffordable) by preventing my access to a marketplace of buyers and artificially deflating the value of my gun (and often times putting the lost profit right in the bank account of Tim Kain and the Richmond Police or Sarah Brady and the Commie Mommies).

Thats what the so called gun show bills are seeking to do. Regulate non dealers.

How can Tim Kaine or any Democrat ever hope to convince America (or simply the citizens of Virginia) that they aren’t after their guns when every false gun concern they raise is tied directly to the ultimate goal of eliminating gun ownership in America (see the statements of Diane Feinstein and the founders of the Brady Campaign/Million Mom March - formerly known as Handgun Control Inc.) ?????

skidmark
August 12, 2005, 10:01 AM
Thank you. Thank you for posting this so I could see what Kaine & Co. is up to. Thank you for posting a coherent response, because it will take me quite some time to calm down enough to be able to put together anything as rational and eloquent as your response.

I've never before been a one-issue voter, but it seems I may be turning into one regarding Virginia politics.

stay safe.

skidmark

dolanp
August 12, 2005, 10:06 AM
Nice response countertop.

Henry Bowman
August 12, 2005, 10:20 AM
unlicensed gun dealers If you repeat an oxymoron loud and long enough, does it become real? The blissninnies seem to think so.

MikeB
August 12, 2005, 10:25 AM
Well first this statement by Tim Kaine is a flat out bald faced lie.

I actually voiced these concerns to a conservative gun supporter and all he said was that it was already a felony for people convicted of violent crime to possess guns. Great, so it’s illegal for them to have the guns, but not illegal for someone to sell them the guns. It seems to me that when you sell firearms to a suspected terrorist or a violent criminal, some people might call you something like, I don’t know, an accomplice!

It's already illegal to sell a gun to a felon, period, end of story, no ifs ands or buts. Of course the truth never stood in the way of a politician.

Secondly a better example of what closing the "gun-show loophole" might do, is make it so I would have to go and do a transfer when I borrow a gun from my father, or he from me.

countertop
August 12, 2005, 11:23 AM
After going to the issue section of Tim Kaine's web page - I posted this question in the comment box.

No response as of yet - though it is still early.

Quick question for you Dan.

On Tim’s web page, he states “Tim Kaine strongly supports the Second Amendment. As the next Governor of Virginia, he will not propose any new gun laws.” How does conform with your desire to take away my right to sell my guns? Is your proposal somehow not a new gun law?

He also states “Both the Constitution of the United States of America and the Constitution of Virginia guarantee that the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” What does he mean by the people? Do you subscribe to the idea that most Democrats seem to spout that somehow “the people” means something different in the 2nd Amendment than it does anywhere else in the constitution or the Bill of Rights?

Finally, he states “In addition, the Virginia constitution also protects the right to hunt. When that tradition came under attack by animal-rights groups, Tim Kaine helped defend the constitutional amendment in court.” Do you agree with this? If so, what is your opinion on the hunting bans in Fairfax and Alexandria and Arlington Counties (its illegal to discharge a weapon, hence no hunting) and the similar ban Chesterfield County is seeking to implement? Do you oppose those restrictions? Does Tim (I’ve asked a lot of his campaign staff, no one wants to even touch the issue - why?)

scout26
August 12, 2005, 08:23 PM
Anybody got the numbers for:

A) Number of Terrorists that have purchased guns in the US.

B) Number of Terrorists that have purchases guns at gun shows in the US.




Enquiring minds want to know..........

Standing Wolf
August 12, 2005, 09:54 PM
This is not an issue of gun rights, it’s an issue of criminal justice.

Sounds like something we'll be hearing soon from Mrs. Snopes Clinton.

JohnBT
August 13, 2005, 09:35 AM
When he was on city council he used city funds to send chartered buses to the Million Mom March. He had to reimburse the city after the public found out about it.

Other than that, and a few other things, he's a nice man according to friends who live on his block.

John

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